More Outraged By the Outrage

dost-mittar #20: What you have suggested may happen, and it may not. Depends on whether an Iraqi leadership emerges or not. I think a religious Iraqi leadership may emerge. For those of us, who are neither secular nor reliigious, this is fine. Because it is better than not having any leadership, at all.

Americans need to move out of Iraq. It is a damned if you do, and damned if you don`t situatio. I think people tend to underestimate how much Arabs hate Americans. Even Americans don`t realize it. I talk to Arabs, and follow the shows on Canadian TV a lot. They all like Canadians. But they hate the USA. In fact, the word hate is an understatement for their feelings towards the USA. It is a combination of hate, disgust, anger frustration and ffear.

Any country that is so hated (rightly or wrongly) by another people can never be successful in occupying it. Nor will it ever be viewed as liberators by the locals, regardless of how many Saddams they get rid of.

The Americans have handed back Fallujah to Iraqis, and it is fine. Najaf will be fine also, if it is handed back.

If Canadians were occupying Iraq, I would suggest they stay. However, Americans are driven by other motives, i.e. oil and Israel lobby. And their internal politics are too influenced by these two groups. If they get an inch, they will try for a yard. If they are allowed to stay, they will again try to establish individuals like Chalabi, and we will be back to square one. I don`t think the Iraqis will stop fighting, until the Americans leave.

The best solution would be to hand over everything to the UN. The local religious leaders will talk with the UN. The UN forces should be augmented with American, Indian, Muslim etc. soldiers.

The breakup scenario will remain, regardless of when the Americans leave.....

nasah:
Aap kab se musalmaan ban gaye bhai jaan? :)
Welcome back!
All said and done, I am now in the opposite camp, namely those who are against precipitous withdrawal of the Americans from Iraq, my strong invasion of their criminal invasion notwithstanding. I strongly feel that Americans will be committing another crime if they leave Iraq without ensuring the stability and integrity of the country they are occupying.
It does not take a rocket genius to speculate on what will happen if the US withdraws without another authority in a position to take its place. I dont know if the UN would be keen to take over from the Americans and even if it does, it would need the continuous support of the American troops. In the current situation, I dont see why other countries would be willing to risk their troops even under the UN supervision.
If the US leaves, it will be a free for all between the shia and sunni militias. The Kurds will declare their Kurdistan. Turkey will intervene to prevent that from happening and to probably assist the beleagured Sunnis, and Iran can be counted upon to assist the shias in the south. In other words, a messy, bloody civil war with support from outsiders. The only ones who are salivating at this outcome are those who do not want a strong Iraq in the middle east, i.e., the very neocons who are advising the Bush administration. Has anyone noticed that the same neocon journalists who were vociferous in support of an invasion of Iraq are now advocating a hasty withdrawal? Does it take a genius to see which country will benefit from a civil war and a partitioning of Iraq? When will the Arabs ever learn?

Here is one Muslim`s outrage:

Posted: May 11, 2004 10:29 PM
Reply

````My name is Nick Burg, my father`s name is Michael, my mother`s name is Susan,`` the man said on the video. ``I have a brother and sister, David and Sarah. I live in ...Philaphedelia.``

After reading a statement, the men were seen pulling the man to his side and putting a large knife to his neck. A scream sounded as the men cut his head off, shouting ``Allahu Akbar!`` ``God is great.`` They then held the head out before the camera.``(Reuter)

now it is the turn of the Muslim Barbarians -- beheading an inncocent American man -- on camera -- and shouting -- ``God is Great``???

The god of Barbarians is NOT Great -- and will NEVER be great......whether of Christianity -- or of Judiasm -- OR OF Islam.....

the Christians, the Jews -- AND the Muslims -- who TORTURE and KILL inncocent people -- they ALL will burn in the SAME HELL.....till Eternity -- scorned and abandoned by their real God...

let me say this to my Muslims Brethren -- if there is a degree of Barbarisms that can be measured in some way -- we Muslims accumulatively -- are the worst Barbarians of this entire world....

hasan
(SAT)

I am not outraged by the US outrage against the terrible human rights abuses their soldiers have committed in Iraq. This outrage is the only redeeming feature in a civilized society. And yes, that man with the grimacy-grin must follow up his ``owning`` up of the responsibility with the honourable thing to do -leave his office. The neocons have destroyed the reputation of America beyond repair not only among Arabs and Muslims but also among people who respect a rule of international law and justice.
But I am also disappointed with the underwhelming outrage of the Muslim world at the barabaric beheading of Berg by people ritually slaughtering a man, reciting the name of Allah, and doing so in the name of the honour and dignity of the muslims of the world. Why doesn`t someone issue a fatwa against these barbarians whose act is so heinous that most of us wouldn`t even think of visiting the website to watch the horrific act?

It seems to me that Rumsfeld is on a farewell trip to Iraq.

Here is his speech in Iraq:

``One day you`re gonna look back, and you`re gonna be proud of your service, and you`re gonna say it was worth it,`` said Rumsfeld in a voice solemn with emotion.”
declaring that ``the United States is the ... best hope of humankind.``

``I`m a survivor,`` he said. He brushed aside media criticism as shortsighted. ``I`ve stopped reading newspapers,`` he said to a round of applause.``
Read full story here.

It is clear that there is a huge infighting going on within the admin. CSmonitor is hinting at clash between the Army brass and the civvies in the DoD. It may be a little higher up then that.

Let’s look at the events in the last couple of weeks.

The US army and DoD had abu ghraib pictures since Jan this year. A sample group of pictures were released to CBS in early April or Late March. Obviously it was an inside job and pictures were given to CBS by some “Deep Throat”. How else CBS would get hold of those pictures?

Granted, there is a story out that some accused army person’s lawyer gave those pictures to CBS but that is not plausible as the army would not hand over those pictures to any body knowing the potential for trouble those pictures would cause. As we all know they did. (The lawyer for Lyndie England still hasn’t got pictures despite his requests.)

The pictures were finally shown on CBS 60 Mins. after some give and take between Gen. Mayer and Dan Rather at CBS.

The other group, ostensibly a pro Rumsfeld group, comes out with the Berg beheading. The video is released to the still “unknown Arab” website with in a short period of beheading. (There is no blood shown in the whole video. But that is not the point here.)

CNN and other pro admin media are building the story for the last two days to counter the Abu Ghraib story.

Rumsfeld goes on to say on the Senate floor that there are other pictures out there. It seems that he does not know who has them and when they would be released or they would just be used to get his resignation.

Within the last 2-3 days Powell distanced himself from the admin saying he had briefed the president. He appears to be totally cut off from the WH kitchen Cabinet as he was not in the decision to request another $25b from the congress.
Now the question is when Rummy would leave; right after he comes back from Iraq or waits for another set of pictures to be released.

Am I building a conspiracy theory here or somebody else out there thinks the way I am thinking?

Is it just me, or does any one else also feel that a key piece of information is missing from the Berg`s execution details.

The purported website which showed the execution of Berg is termed as a ``clearing house`` of al-qaeda terrorists by US government. Apparently it has also posted threats of terrorism in the past as well. Now my questions simply are these:

- who is making the monthly / yearly payment for the domain name of this website?
- where is the domain name registered? Apparently the body that registers ALL domain names in the world is headquartered in Virginia (Is it called Network Solutions?)
- where is the server housing this website located?
- Why is US government not going after the operators of this website. There is a reasonable chance that the operators of these websites are key players of al-qaeda. Also, the mystery of WHO killed Berg could be solved by capturing the operators of website and asking them where they got the video of execution from. And narrowing the location of where the messages on this website are posted from is NOT difficult at all. This could be easily done by tracing the IP address.

Does anyone else has information that could help me understand this?

Zain Malik

````I think the people of the United States of America need to know what the fate of their sons and daughters might be in the hands of the Bush administration.``
(Michael Berg)

``The Bush hawks, so fixated on making the Middle East look more like America, have made America look un-American. (Maureen Dowd, Op-Ed, The New York Times, May 13, 2004) ``

a better way to say the same may be:

The Bush hawks, so fixated on making the Middle East look more like America, have made America look more like the Middle East.....in Iraq.

Here is Berg`s FATHER speaking like a true American Father about his True American son:

Berg died for Bush, Rumsfeld `sins` - father

By Jon Hurdle

PHILADELPHIA, May 13 (Reuters) - The father of Nick Berg, the American beheaded in Iraq, directly blamed U.S. President George W. Bush and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Thursday for his son`s death.

``My son died for the sins of George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld. This administration did this,`` Berg said in an interview with radio station KYW-AM two days after a video showing the execution of his son was shown on an Islamist Web site.

In the interview from outside his home in West Chester, Pennsylvania, a seething Michael Berg also said his 26-year-old son, a civilian contractor, probably would have felt positive, even about his executioners, until the last minute.

``I am sure that he only saw the good in his captors until the last second of his life,`` Berg said. ``They did not know what they were doing. They killed their best friend.``

``More Outraged By the Outrage``

This is such an appropriate title. Yesterday, while driving to New Jersey from Boston, the radio dial ``seeked`` at a station that was playing the audio of murder of Nicholas Berg. After listening to this 30 second audio I was sickened and shocked. The mixed chants of ``Allah O Akbar`` and ``screams`` of Nicholas Berg being halaled (could they not have finished the murder with one hard blow) were simply too much. I wondered if it is about ``religion v religion``, ``clash of civilization`` or it truly is clash of civility and savagry. I see reems of comments and strategic redunancy being expressed by muslim intellectuals, however, their silence is deafening. One American muslim called into this radio station, and said that he had seen the web-site and after wards he could not do the work for the entire day.

Why no outrage at the web-site which put such an example of human savagry on Internet, and calling itself Islamic web-site? It is clear that what many christians did against the slavery. I would like to know what would muslims do against such savagry being committed with ``Allah o Akbar`` chants, and posted on Islamic web-site.

Does defeaning silence of muslims here indicates the gulf between savagry and civility? Human Civilization (Islamic, or Christian) have always prevailed and will always prevail over such savagry.

Can reems of strategic redunancy or Limbaugh analysis can contain the momentum of human civilization to stop savagry? Can we not say that a non-violent prophet is badly needed rather than born agains?

Anil Kapuria

Bun chalay Sri Vajpayee.....Modi jaisa Bhai...

.....time for the Ring Master to retire to Modi Nagar...the Resting Place for Masked Politicians.......and give some araam -- to those TWo weak Knees of his -- after riding TWO Horses simultaneously ......in the Hindutva Circus....for full four years...

what a great country India really is -- and what a smart alek the rural electorate...really is....bravo.....

....we did not fight the British Dogs -- and wrest the country from their Colonial Canine Teeth -- to give it to the Hindutva Vultures.....

.........this is called Democracy with a capital D...

Now it`s time for regime change in Pakistan as well.....time.....Musharraf started packing -- and head....either for the Barrack.......or for the dock ...

re: #2 by malyck

You are basically saying that we should judge American actions outside the context of Geneva convention... judge these actions against the standards set by Saddam Hussain.

But Saddam Hussain had no standards. He was a dictator who gassed his own people and amassed billions of $$ from Iraq`s oil. On the other hand, America claims to be a liberator and a champion of human rights, liberty, and human dignity.

This is a question of moral equivalency. These pictures have demonstrated that American forces only display civilized behavior when the camera lights are on. When journalists and cameramen are not watching, these forces are no more civilized than any African militia. These photos are a public relations disaster for America. Now the Americans need to change tack and adopt a softer, velvet touch approach toward Iraq in particular and the Muslim world in general... instead of the angry approach that has backfired since 9/11.

bongdongs its already been answered in previous posts -- in case you didnt realize i am not dawn`s official spokesman on this site, though the queries i have had to answer in the past might suggest that

TODAY -- India is INDEED Shining -- in Rainbow Colors -- NOT in Jaudiced/Saffron crap....

Salaam Alaikum!

As a Muslim with a heavy, heavy heart, I am outraged and disgusted at the enormity of such barbarous acts. Action needs to be carried out on the perpetrators and questions need thorough explanation. Although I am broken hearted at the sightings of what the American soldiers have done, I must express my dismay at much of the Arab/Muslim world. Most of the Arab regimes cozy up with this vile and nefarious assiduity and make no effort whatsoever to halt it. Muslims in general, Arab nations in particular must not only condemn future pornography of this nature but also make an unrelenting effort to end such in our ``Dar-al-Islam/ Dar-al-Araby``. To pretend this is only an ``American`` problem is to willfully ignore the obvious and to forever bury one`s head in the sands of Iraq.

-Hakim

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