Western Civilization? A Very Good Idea

U need to just ask yourself this honest question, urstruly: Is the whole world of `non-muslims` conspiring against muslims ?
If you get the answer of Yes despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, ask yoursef a second question: Why on earth would they do that ?

Urstruly #22
You need to stand in front of a mirror and say the following:
`Pakistanis are humans just like Arabs`,
`Pakistani Muslims have as much right as Arab Muslims to decide what is Islam`
`Pakistani clerics will not take hundreds of millions of dollars from Arabs simply to preach the Arabs` dictated version of Islam`

bbabu

Your contention that saudis do not work for living is a myth. The facts speak for themselves. In`t it a fact that half of Manhattan is owned by Arabs/Saudis. The largest group of investors prior to 9/11 in US was saudis and Arabs. The largest investors in Europe and East Asian markets is still Arabs. There is more investment by Arabs in US auto market than the Americans themselves. If investing is not a valid form of work then tell me so. The fact of the matter is that jews hindus and americans are preparing a case against Arabs and Muslims to feed the prejudices of their own masses by insiminating the ideas that Arabs are half bred camel riding morons. Therefore, looting and plundering their wealth and their oppression is not only not morally reprehensible but it is justified. The fact is that a hindu would sell his mother and his cow to work for an arab and live in saudi arabia even today. And what has saudia ever done to indians and hindus. I think they have better relations with India even better than Paksitan. Then why so much hatred so much prejudice against them? Is it then your religion that tells you to do so. Therefore, I must request very humbly to my hindu friends here that whenever any hindu feels an urge to hate a saudi and a Muslim, he should stand in front of a mirror take a deep breath and say this ten times:

``Muslims and Arabs are human beings first. Just like me``.

I think the, ``Western civlization`` is good at a domestic level, i.e. if an Iraqi can make it into America, and become a citizen of USA, he is better off than he would be in Iraq.

However, Western civilization certainly has not respected human rights when it comes to countries outside its borders. Quite the contrary. Even amongst each other. The easiest way to calculate this, is not through the BS pushed by various medias, but to look at simple mathematics.

Anyone from anywhere, including India, Pakistan, Russia, Arabistan, who gets a chance to migrate to the West, does so willingly. This has to indicate that they are moving towards a higher civilization, from a lower one.

At the same time, if you look at the number of killings, outside their own borders, done in this century, if will invariably point towards the Western nations as the biggest group of occupiers and killers (we are only talking about outside their own borders). WWI and WWII alone have no precedence in the recent history of say, South Asia. The colonization of Africa and Asia was completely against human rights. Vietnam lost hundreds of thousands to Western napalm. Russia (if we consider it Western) killed about 1 million people in Afghanistan. France brutally murdered Algerians. Israel (if we consider it Western) is on a mission to ethnically cleanse Palestinians. Africans were enslaved by the dozens. Iraq has been bombed and sanctioned to smithereens. Hitler`s butchering of Jews is unprecedented in the last few centuries, etc. etc.

This is why Pakistanis who are wealthy and qualified enough to make it to the USA, defend it. However, the 99.9% who cannot make it into the USA, and feel the brunt of USA`s policies, don`t like the USA.

I don`t think this has anything to do with being, ``Western`` though. Througout, history, any country that becomes civilized domestically becomes powerful. It then uses that power to help people within its borders, and destroy, occupy, enslave, rob and kill people outside its borders. All civilizations have done that. And the West is no excepetion...

There is one encouraging trend developing however. The West now has two trains of thought. The USA is still on the old trend of looking after its own population, but heavily killing those outside its borders. It attacks one country about every two years or so, and has a miltiary budget greater than the next 25-50 countries, combined. However, non-USA Westerners (like Canadians, Europeans etc.) have started emphasising human rights outside their own borders, as well. As indicated by their reaction of their populations to the Iraq war.

Personally, I think Canadians easily have created the best civilization (at least amongst all the countries I have seen). And from what I have heard from friends in Europe, Europeans are second.

The sad lesson learnt from the support Taliban still gets might be this:

When determined Islamists go after women and their rights, these womens` own fathers, brothers, husbands, sons may not hesitate to betray them.

Contrary to what we think, the men closest to those women are not their last line of defense of their freedoms, they are the first line of offense.

Urstruly # 6
Western societies plundered Asia, Africa and Latin America for centuries. That does not explain how a devastated Germany and Japan can rebuild their societies in a generation or two. while most Third World countries have struggled even with larger amounts of aid.

A lot of Black Africa is poorer on a per captia basis compared to where they were during independence.

soysauce # 7
You may be right.

Stopping Hitler and Japan was worth it. A lot of events that happened in post-war USA like civil rights and immigration for colored people is a direct consequence of what transpired during WW 2.

Urstruly #11

Saudi Arabia per captia income peaked in 1981. Saudis do not work for a living. Just live off oil. Ignoring the past 2 years oil prices have declined both in nominal and real terms.

Saudis can raise oil prices in the short term and suck the West dry. But they create real incentives to develop substitutes. Saudi monarchs are smart to realize this. Once oil has some kind of alternative some of the oil producing countries are as good as dead.

Keep in mind high prices of oil hurt Muslims in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh more. So much for your analysis skills !!!

Urstruly re: Saudi
``If these are the signs of oppression then I would like to live in such an oppressive state. ``

You would have few problems living there, as would me or any other man. The only inconvenience is lack of alcohol, but am reliably informed there are enough ways to get around that little restriction.

I think Mrs. Urstruly and the little trulyings would have a problem in Saudia though. The missus will not be permitted to work, to drive around, to wear clothing of her choice or to do her hair nicely. She will spend most of her time indoors, gossipping with other women, applying make-up and shopping in ``family`` malls. If she wants to visit the museum or the library or a sports facility, chances are she will be allowed there only with her husband in tow, that too at a certain fixed time, usually the evening. The kids will never see a person of the opposite sex other than a close relative, go to segregated schools and graduate from segregated universities, only to find that there are no jobs to be found in a country that has allowed itself to be mercilessly exploited through sheer laziness and arrogance of small-minded shiekhs who didn`t know better than to invest in the future while there were enough petrodollars for them to enjoy and die happy. I feel truly sad for that country, sure they have money but they have no prospects, which is truly scary.

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Not every women suffers from Stoclkhom syndrome. There might be some people on earth who love cynic way of style like Taliban have ... goat and caves culture in 21th century. I dont mind if some pathetic loser nurse or some psycho journalist Ridley has preferred them over everything else in the world. Three cases dont prove the taliban right. Shall we talk about thousands rather hundred of thousasnds of females who have heaved a sigh of relief after the departure of taliban style totalitarianism?

Why muslims consider Taliban as their role model ... ? I fail to crack this question ... why fanatics are portrait as our role model .... gosh .... I need some fresh air !!!!!!!!

malyck,

What by the red and blue balls of Hades have the Uiger (Xinxiang) done other than getting ethnically cleansed?

Sheesh, an entire populace suffers brutally, and yet you manage to point out the reactionary eye-poking antics of a few among them...you need a sense of scale and perspective dude. Until then, your moral pontificating means squat.

malyck

Reeeally, Saudis done all that?

And why every western woman who has been in taliban custody suffers from Stolkholm syndrome. The case of two american nuns and another british journalist (can`t recall her name) comes to mind.

Urstruly

I am a pure desi and more than you are. But I believe in rational thinking and not in ethnocentric life style.

As far Saudi Arabia is concerned ... you cant even call their torturous country as Islamic one. The type of Wahabism they are practicing is shame for all the muslims world. A place where there are no human rights and cruel punishments are implemented. Rajam is one of them which is no where listed in Quran and is practiced cuz the blood sucking Al-sauds want it. Drinking, gambling, prostitution and lavish life styles are rampant in the Saudi Arabia. If you dont believe as any flipino maid who has served there. Rapes are done in the palaces. The value of female is not more than of an aninmal. The sauds spend the national reserves lavishly is worth applause? The way they have sponsored jehadism in the whole world. The way they have licked the boots of US establishment in every decision... is this what you consdier ideal islam? Which Saudi prince and top governmental official doesnt have million dollars of accounts in Las Vegas`s gambling dens? Do you know Shah Fahad spent 70 million dollars in his 10 days trip in some beahc resort last year? Who is looting the saudi people? What does a female is to them ... a cow which they can put in black veil and drag anywhere they want? She have no rights there....she cant even travel outside home with out a male even if she is dying. I think you need to read few books of Sohair Khashogi, Jean Season and few more than you would realise the ultimate truth of KSA.

As far as British journalist Yvonne Ridley is concerned ... she suffered from Stoclkhom Syndrome .... I feel pity for her. Its good that she has accepted Islam .... so doest every other person in the world. But I can assure you that seeing acts of Muslims ....esp Al-Sauds clan has done in whole world ..... like the Libyans have done...like what Saddam has done ... like what Taliban has done ... Jaish -e-Muhammad has done in Kasmir .... like what Mulims has done in Xiang province in china .... one can feel shame and bury his head in sand than to feel proud.

malyck
//..Make scientific advancement, excel in media, go for development, conquer world economically ...who is barring you?...//

Jews , hindus , neo-cons, western media - the list is endless. It`s a conspiracy against muslims.

For example - saudis(true muslims) have gone down from per capita $34,000/- to $7,500/. You know why - because Americans have sucked Saudis dry. Did you know that?

malyck

No one is blaming the stars. I am only putting the blame where it is due. Frankly, I do not buy the bullshit that Western news media and their so-called human rights organizations hurl around. These motherfukkers are at the forefront of preparing cases against weaker nations and disseminate disinformtion around the globe. The way the Red Cross and other HR organizations have collborated with these war criminals to hide their crimes speaks volume about their real intrentions.

I am not an American, I am desi. I do not buy bullshit unless it is confirmed by evidence and thru varifiable neutral sources. You have mentioned in particular the case of Saudi Arabia as a corrupt an oppressive state. For you information, before first Gulf War the per capita income of a Saudi was US$ 34,000, the second highest in the world. This wealth was not concentrated in few hands as it is evident thrugh their public sector investment - the highways, the hospitals, the universities, the city complexes, business centers, transportation systems. If these are the signs of oppression then I would like to live in such an oppressive state. in just 14 years West has sucked the Saudis dry. Their per capita income has dropped down to US$7500. No wonder they are flying planes into the buildings.

The second example is that of Taliban. Lets see what whiteman, actually a whitewoman has to say about their oppressive behaviour:

http://www.muslimuzbekistan.com/eng/ennews/2002/08/ennews27082002_1.html

The WEST -- especially the Anglo Saxon ONE does need some CIVLIZING. Here is Andy Rooney thinks of `American Civilization`....

``The day the world learned that American soldiers had tortured Iraqi prisoners belongs high on the list of worst things that ever happened to our country. It`s a black mark that will be in the history books in a hundred languages for as long as there are history books. I hate to think of it.

The image of one bad young woman with a naked man on a leash did more to damage America`s reputation than all the good things we`ve done over the years ever helped our reputation.``

(CBS News Correspondent Andy Rooney on 60 Minutes).

Urstruly ..... what you have set might be true (althu I dont agree with it) but the loot and plunder of Muslims rulers is exceptional. They have very excellent history of butchering the people of their own religion. From the demise of Imam Hussain to Banu Ummiyah to Al-Sauds to Taliban and present day, I dont see any problem facing Muslims greater than their own blood thirsty leaders.

Islam is the only religion in the world which claim to have 72 major sects and not even single of them has solution to the problems faced by them ..... tch tch .... what a shame!

THE FAULT DEAR URSTRULY IS NOT IN OUR STARS BUT IN OURSELVES THAT WE ARE UNDERLINGED. Make scientific advancement, excel in media, go for development, conquer world economically ...who is barring you? The ground is open for every weaker nation and they can excel. But sitting in a couch and blaming western nations would not do.

civ.i.li.za.tion
1. An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.

2. The type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization; the civilization of ancient Rome.


The western nations are entirely civilized as far as their internal workings are concerned. Nations like India are not.
In their dealings with the outside world, however, the western nations have remained uncivilized and brutal as though any move to civilized behavior would upset their balance. When they can be convinced that their civilization is under attack they react as one. It`s this internal cohesion that causes them to react (perceived) outside threats with a great deal of vehemence. Iraq collapsed because there was no interal cohesion, no great civilization.

I was at a departmental dinner a few nights ago and the collegues at my table were all of the opinion that the US under Bush was acting like a rogue nation. But then someone brought up a PBS show on WW2 and the talk turned to how that was a good war. I felt like telling them but didn`t (not wanting to sour the cordiality) that the celebration of WW2 is what underlies current aggressions and the militarization. Any idea that war is bad to begin with has been eviscerated by a continual reinterpretation of that war and the thesis that some wars can be good.

If you subtract the loot and plunder of weaker nations by West from their civilization, which has been going on for the past four hundered years, the anarchy and chaos in their civilization would be of the proportions unseen by man; even in countries like Rawanda. That plunder offsets their social costs.

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USA and Western Europe are better than other civilizations that preceeded them.

1. Individuals have enjoyed more freedom to pursue their interests. Of course some individuals abuse those freedoms. That does not make those freedoms less cherishable. A lot of the scientific progress has come from ability of individuals to pursue it and to get recognized for it by society.

2. Collectively Western Europe have created welfare states that look after its citizens far better than any ruler in history. Spare me any BS about Caliphates etc. Even USA with its ``free market economy`` has a semi-decent safety net.

3. They have made honest attempts to reconcile attitudes towards women, racial minorities etc.

The only downside has been damage to the earth`s environment through enormous material consumption especially in the USA.

SaimaShah # 2
Your comments on child sex, pornography etc. suggests holier than attitude by non-Westerners towards the excesses of the West. Arab, Indian, East Asian cultures has a long history - past and present of similar excesses.

``No other civilization other than the West, claims democracy and human rights as an ideal with a high earnestness``

Leave american and tell me werent Taliban & Saddam regime were backed with the so-called best religion in the world (Islam)with the highest moral standards and examples of their prophet? What results their system gave them at the end ?

I think muslims believe that their human rights record is the best comparing to all the other civilization (despite they go for cruel punishments and gender discirminating stuff). I think muslims have told a lot of time to the world that they have best democratic and economic system. So why has it failed? Why have they done such acts? Why have the fall short of standards every time around the globe? Is it that Islam is flop of the muslims are flop?

So is the case with American sytem....they do claim to have high moral and democratic standards but they might fall short of it like muslims did in last 1400 years.

I am not supporting american attrocities but I am trying to open your eyes and see that it has happened and will happen whatever the strong institutions and religion emrge in the world. No human civilization is exception to it. Given power and control .... every civilization becomes the doglike.

Malyck

No other civilization other than the West, claims democracy and human rights as an ideal with a high earnestness. When Pakistani Muslims behave in less than approved ways, we criticize them for falling short of an ideal. It is the same with any critique of the West.

Panini

Like the comment about civilization being a process, a never achieved distant goal. Some events support the idea that yes we are civilized, others blow it out of the window. There are such contradictions in the West --some practices strike me as barbaric, others plain stupid and wasteful (packaging, child sex)--yet the roads are clean and people dont accept physical abuse as ok. Same with the East. Some practices have such nobility and show all that is best in humans, such as sacrifice for family, others are so barbaric--sati, goat sacrifice.

And Gandhi`s comment is so incredible, kind of sums it all up in one humorous quip.

The problem with the author is that he has read history but hasnt understood it. One can`t totally put down the drain the contribution of some people cuz the people in that civilization were bad. American has contributed toward a lot of other good ways to the world ... one should forget it. Why are we having hard time considering & admitting that America (as for now) is better civilization (in material respect .... what we measure with usually ... althu we never admit) than all of us. Its survival of the fittest. Chinese and Indian civilization had nice time. Greeks had their time so did the Romans. Muslims had their good days and so did the Europeans. Everyone of them have committed similar acts of so called attrocities (which i consider totally normal) in their spin of power. Its time of boom of american civilization...just look at ur wardrobe, ur cd collection, ur way of life and everything...and a normal man would know.

Articles bashing Americans serve only few pruposes ....get few visitors and offcourse take out the outrage on the superior civilization.