Sonia Gandhi and the Coming of Age of the Indian Nation

Mr sapra,
I am amused. It just struck me that it must have been people of your ilk who could have allowed the british a free run all over india as well as been a member of their Indian Civil Service .After all thge British gave us the Postal system, railways,governance,civilization...

Sonia Gandhi has definately become a controversial character in Indian Politics and her history as an Italian should not be of any concern right now as our own Benazir Bhutto was not a Pakistani and still is not Pakistani. I think Sonia is better than BB for 2 reasons, she married Rajiv and decided to stay in India and during the time she was facing hardship she decided to stay back and face the Music of Indian Politics. Plus, her decision not to accept Prime Ministership is commendable as it shows her respect for the Indian Constitution, which clearly states no Foreign born person shall be the PM.. What do you say about that....India I envy you in every respect....

“#57 by sadna on May 23, 2004 1:32pm PT
”btw, Jagdish Tytler actually led the mobs which burnt innocent people. He is now a minister in the Union Cabinet.

Why no statement of protest from Paki or Indian liberals? Have you all gone hiding under tables somewhere?”

I am a Pakistani born “Liberal”. I also have a certificate to that effect, just in case somebody is interested!
I had never heard of this guy Jagdish Tytler before. Now that I know he is bad-I condemn the congress sarkar for including him in the cabinet.

Ref dost-mittar #67

[rsridhar:
``Money so generated has to be equitably distributed to the poor through polcies aimed at benefitting the poor. That is what i meant by ``free market with socialism``.``

That`s what I thought you meant. It`s generally called a welfare society.]

So tell us, what IS the incentive for the poor to get off their sorry butts and do something for themselves?

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rsridhar:
``Money so generated has to be equitably distributed to the poor through polcies aimed at benefitting the poor. That is what i meant by ``free market with socialism``.``

That`s what I thought you meant. It`s generally called a welfare society.

harimau #64
``My designation, if I recall correctly, called you a hand-wringing Hindu apologizing for not having enough daughters and sisters to be raped by Islamic thugs.

This is just to set the record straight. ``

By all means let us set the record straight. We know who and how many were killed in Godhra and by whom.

Now let us set the record straight on what happened afterward.

How many daughters and sisters have you and your sexually-deprived friends in VHP/BJP raped, harimau? How many women and children did you pour petrol over and burn? How many surviving women are you now refusing FIRs and compensation to ?

How many children have you orphaned harimau?

I know a school in Maharashtra which is now sheltering the Gujarat orphans who saw their sisters and mothers raped and killed, tell me how many more have you orphaned, harimou?

Let us set the record straight on this.

Ref sadna #58

[harimau #56
That was your designation, not mine. If you insist on judging me wrong repeatedly that is not my problem.]

My designation, if I recall correctly, called you a hand-wringing Hindu apologizing for not having enough daughters and sisters to be raped by Islamic thugs.

This is just to set the record straight.

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re: #59 by dost-mittar
DM ji,
This is what i wrote:
``India`s very existence rests on the tripod of secularism, democracy and socialism (with an increasing share of free market nowadays).``

Free market is essential to unleash the potential of each person according to his/her talent and generate money. Money so generated has to be equitably distributed to the poor through polcies aimed at benefitting the poor. That is what i meant by ``free market with socialism``. While generating money is the job of individual entrepreuners, MNCs and the big industrialists, distributing it equitably (at least trying to do so) is government`s job.
Sridhar

re:#57 by sadna
Sadnaji,
I hope u realize that India is a democracy but not an ``enlightened democracy``.
That is why people elect ``popular leaders`` without questioning their credentials.
We have Lalloo Yadav who has some criminal cases pending against him in court and one of his muslim colleagues who is actually a political goon. Then we have some ``Purana Paapis`` like AR Antulay, Sharad Pawar etc back on the political saddle.
India has miles to go before it is in the same league as Western democracies.
Sridhar

Ref nb #40

[I see your point, harimau, ......]

How come not one Commie/Leftie/Pakistani had any comment?

How would the frikking Leftists of India have reacted if Rajiv Gandhi had married an American? Would they support a US-born white woman for Prime Minister of India? How would they reconcile their reflexive anti-US stand with an American becoming India`s prime minister? How about the security implications of that when the US still refuses to recognize India as a nuclear weapons state and wants India to get rid of her weapons and hand over har cache of plutonium to the US?

After all, didn`t India take over Sikkim when it decided it would no longer tolerate that American woman Hope Cooke and her antics as the Queen of Sikkim?

All of you Indians claiming that it is perfectly okay for Sonia to become the Prime Minister, why don`t you answer my question about a Pakistani woman or an American woman becoming the Prime Minister of India? Cat got your tongue, you frikking idiots?

[Now, does anyone know why the authorities in the US questioned Rahul? Did it have something to do with the Colombian link?]

The facts will never come out. It will all be used to blackmail Rahul when he becomes the Prime Minister (another thing to remember when you all clamor for Rahul to become the PM of India). The US maintains a file on every person who ever came into the US and the file never gets destroyed.

If you are in the US, you can try obtaining the file under the Freedom of Information Act. You won`t get it until after Rajiv dies.... because only Rajiv can ask to see his file while he is alive.... you can ask after his death for studying the history of US-Indian relations...even then it will be censored.

Any of you who thinks I am paranoid just have to find out what info was maintained on John F. Kennedy by the FBI to know the truth.

nb

varanasi on the eve of holi is to be totally avoided by ``decent`` women.
there is an extremely raunchy kavi-sammelan on the ghats which is paradoxically a must-see. wonder if up tourism promotes this.

rsridhar:
Did you say that India`s very existence rests on socialism? The country, then, is doomed unless you have some weird definition of socialism!

rsridhar #55
``Pak never claimed itself to be a secular nation. ``
Yet they lecture Indians on secularism and pluralism day in and day out. That is called shameless hypocrisy.

harimau #56
That was your designation, not mine. If you insist on judging me wrong repeatedly that is not my problem.

btw, Jagdish Tytler actually led the mobs which burnt innocent people. He is now a minister in the Union Cabinet.

Why no statement of protest from Paki or Indian liberals ? Have you all gone hiding under tables somewhere ?

Ref sadna #54

What has happened to you?

Just about a year ago, you were one of the hand-wringing apologetic Hindus.

re:#54 by sadna
Let me butt in here and give my 10 cents worth.
India claims itself to be a secular nation. Its constitution proclaims it to be so. There are constitutional guarantees for the minorities. Just as there is nothing like a ``touch of pregnancy`` (a woman is either pregnant or she is not), there is nothing like a ``touch of secularism``. If u are not secular, you join the club that has countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and a surfeit of Islamic countries and yes, Pakistan too.
Pak never claimed itself to be a secular nation. Hence, if jehandis kill kafirs and their mullahs and the crowd applauds, we have to just say ``what else can we expect from the Pakis? They are not secular any way.``. NOt so with India. India`s very existence rests on the tripod of secularism, democracy and socialism (with an increasing share of free market nowadays). It is the nature of the beast. If India says it is secular, it bloody well act like one or else it has no respect in this world. I think even BJP now realizes this after the recent defeat.
Namada Dam has displaced a number of poor people from their ancient roots. Again, India being a democracy, u hear a lot of noise and some dedicated social activists are involved. The full ramifications of 3 Gorges will be known in years to come. As always, China keeps everything under wraps and u will only hear the good story first.
Mangla dam? I think this is a big issue in Pakistan. What makes u think Pakis are OK with this dam?
Sridhar

dost-mittar #53
Some more hatemongering questions for `liberals` Indian and Pakistani :

Why is jihadi violence and Maoist violence acceptable as `politics by other means` but Hindutva violence not acceptable as `politics by other means`?

Why are the Three Gorges, Kalabagh, Mangala etc dams just fine, but the Narmada dam is not fine?

More Muslims have died in state-sponsored jihad, killed and killers(perhaps by a factor of 10 even 100 if you count Afghanistan) than Muslims were killed in Gujarat. So why the selective outrage?

sadna:
``And the fact that I point it out makes me an extremist Hindu, thats a given.. ``

no, just a ``hatemongerer``! :)

Ref nb #48

[I was in India over Holi and couldn`t go to Varanasi because I was warned it wasn`t safe. I do believe I should be able to visit what is a holy city to me without having to worry about being assaulted or kidnapped.]

I think you should have attempted to visit Haji Ali in Bombay, the Nagore Dargah in Tamil Nadu or the dargahs in Ajmer or Delhi. You would have encountered no security or safety issues. That is the true face of secularism. Expect more secularism in the future.

That makes sense; I thought ``he`s doing well for an 80 year old!!!``
I meant that we need to work out for ourselves what a Hindu identity is. Everyone thinks they have they answer, whether it be Rushdie or Vinod Mehta or Sushma Swaraj.
I remember the VP Singh years, I was a schoolgirl then, and we were all so hopeful, but it all unravelled in months. I believe very strongly that he is to blame not only for the new casteism in India, but for the whole Mandir/Masjid issue (not that Rajiv`s Shah Bano judgment and the opportunism of the RSS feeding into a genuine emotion helped).
Let me explain about Varanasi. On our last trip, there was a BSP rally, which led to certain unpleasant experiences(maybe it was because ``our`` car belonged to a very prominent Congressman and the driver was recognised). Besides, I was also warned that it was now dirtier than ever-saying something for Varanasi! In spite of that, it does have its own magic, don`t you think?

dost-mittar
Well by self-abnegating, I did not mean rejecting religious identity, I meant taking oneself at everyone else`s cr_ppy evaluation.

For example, on the subject of `liberals`, look at this contrast between aar-paar. Because we are Hindu, we are extremists if we express our wish not to have a foreign-born Prime Minister.

Because they are Muslim, they get to support military rule, without losing a tiniest bit of their liberal shine. huh?

So what if on one hand the favored military arrests every viable politician and on the other hand, the favored military`s extremist bedfellows continue killing people and fomenting civil war in three countries(at last count)- as they have done for years.

These liberals are Muslim, so despite all this their celebrated liberalism is quite unassailable. Had they been Hindu instead..

And the fact that I point it out makes me an extremist Hindu, thats a given..

nb:
Rest easy. I am younger than Manmohan Singh. It is just that I left DSE as a student before he joined it as a professor. Happy? :)

``I think establishing a Hindu identity-or identities, given the pluralistic nature of Hinduism-is important-in our own mind.``

I am not sure if I understand your above statement. Re. Yadavs. A most unfortunate development in India, in my opinion, over the past two decades has been the castification of politics. I was and, to some extent, continue to be an admirer of V.P. Singh whom I (and perhaps only I) consider to be the intiator of economic reforms in India. But he also, in my opinion, is to be blamed for this curse of casteism in the Indian body politic. He did so as PM to fight his own supporter, Devi Lal, who was creating trouble for him with his jat caste-based politics. Instead of dealing with him head-on with the unique support of the CPM and BJP that he enjoyed at that time, he chose to divide the whole Hindu society through the `mandalisation` of politics. The BJP, which was at that time trying to expand its mainly upper-caste hindu base was then faced with a dilemma. It could either oppose Mandal report and seal its own fate among the lower castes or to unite the hindus on some potent issue, such as the Ayodhya temple. As the cliche goes, it answered VP`s Mandal with its own Kamandal, namely, the armies of sadhus brought in support of the Ayodhya temple.
But VP Singh and his protege, such as Laloo and Mulayam, have continued with their dangerous experiment of social engineering. The attempt has been to convert the Hindu majority into a aggregate of minorities - yadavs, dalits, upper castes, etc., etc. I think that the more these worthies try to do that, the more they will encourage BJP to divide the society along hindus-versus-others and try to convert a broad-minded plural identity into a homogeneous religious identity like those of some other religions, which will be sad in my opinion.
Re. holi, it so happens that I was in Varanasi just a day before Holi and did not notice any problem.

So, dost-mittar saheb, with great respect (it was a shock to hear you`re actually older than Mnmohan Singh, though I have gathered overe my time on chowk that you`re no spring chicken), are you not a self-abnegating Hindu anymore? I don`t mean to be sarcastic. I think establishing a Hindu identity-or identities, given the pluralistic nature of Hinduism-is important-in our own mind. Even more so now when the RSS and VHP are coming out and saying Vajpayee didn`t do enough for Hindus, which is why he lost. Maybe there is some truth in that, not that he didn`t do enough (no government does enough for anyone) but that he didn`t appeal enough to the baser instinct of the Hindu on the basis of their religion, as against Laloo, Mayawati and Mulayam appealing to the baser instinct of the so-called backward castes and Dalits.
Where is the cut-off?
Sorry if I seem obsessed with the Yadavs, but for me they epitomise all that has gone wrong in the Hindi belt. For those of us with memories, even the Mandir issue would not have arisen without them. I was in India over Holi and couldn`t go to Varanasi because I was warned it wasn`t safe. I do believe I should be able to visit what is a holy city to me without having to worry about being assaulted or kidnapped.

To all those Pakistanis who find Sonia’s foreign origin issue a reflection on India’s non-democratic nature

I wish to know that if :

Jamima Khan becomes the leader of the ruling party in Pakistan (if democracy comes to Pakistan that is) and then Jamima Khan wishes to become the Prime Minister, would she be accepted by the Paki people or the other political Muslim groups???

Then,

Will Pakistanis let Pakistan have a Hindu President and a Christian Prime Minister?


Answer is obvious but......

39 by Humsab on May 21, 2004 5:31am PT
# 36

What is this Hindu mentality and where is your logic? ......The mandate you are talking about came from the same majority Hindu population. Learn to differentiate between people and political party. In any case this whole episode has no reflection on Indian Democracy.

By the way is it possible that your soft corner for foriegners is because you people are taught to admire your conquerers and hate yourself?

Regards

---

Humsab


If some fanatic Hindus retaliate excessively to the burning of 50 Hindus in the hands of muslims and resort to extreme means then Pakis say..all hindus are like that

If Hindus go on to have a muslim president then that is no proof of their secularism...no word there
If Hindus with other, go ahead and vote against a ruling Hindu party, then that is no proof of their secular minds

It was their secular/tolerant nature because of which they let all foreigners rule them and convert them and they are the ones who are slapped again and again for being secular.


Hindus are just sick and tired of proving their ages-old secular nature to these descendents/coward converts of Mughal conquerers, these citizens of a holy land of Islamic state of Pakistan

dost-mittar #43
Quite true, I did have them in mind too. And why unfair? Pakistanis are as responsible for their own mindsets as are Indians.

# 36 by teshah

+++++
I was shocked personally but relieved also of the doubt I had in my mind about the political sagacity of the Quaide Azam in rejecting the offer of prime ministership of India by Congress if he forgoes the demand for Pakistan.
+++++

teshah is overstating the sagacity of ``the Quaide Azam``.

Separate electorates and the Pakistan Movement in British India were all predicated on the argument that one-man one-vote democracy is unsuitable for a pluralistic society like pre-partition India.

Shrill complaints against the ``tyranny of the majority`` was the foundation of the Pakistan Movement. But it is as ironic as it is apt, that in post-partition era, Jinnah`s Pakistan continued to be plagued by the very same premises that gave it birth, namely, that one man one-vote democracy is unsuitable for a pluralistic society.

The ruling elite in West Pakistan which had once inveighed against the Hindu majority in pre-partition India, found themselves inveighing against the Hindu-tainted majority of East Pakistan. ``Separate Electorates`` and ``Parity`` were the neo-shibboleths to neutralize the majority voters in East Pakistan from having a significant say in Pakistan`s affairs.

Pakistan`s ruling elite could not live under the ``tyrannjy of the majority``. So even in independent Pakistan it took to insisting on living under ``tyranny of the minority``!!!

Today, it is Pakistan`s military that has emerged as the crown jewel of Pakistan`s ruling minority.

Regardless of what teshah might claim, many a Pakistani journalist has been drawing the attention of readers of mainstream Pakistani newspapers to India`s democracy as an edifice worthy of replication in Pakistan. Here`s a typical example:

---

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_22-5-2004_pg3_2

Daily Times, Lahore, Pakistan
Saturday, May 22, 2004

A remarkable election
By Abbas Rashid

..... it is not a mean achievement for democracy in India that it now has persons belonging to minority communities occupying the two highest offices: the prime minister is a Sikh and the president is a Muslim. .....

---

teshah will do well to recall that Pakistan`s lawmakers have expressly saddled the country with laws that prohibit non-Muslims from occupying the high public offices of the country.

Abbas Rashid went on to write, ``Undoubtedly, India deserves to celebrate a mature political transition and the strengthening of its democracy.``

Here are a few more comments from the Pakistan Press:

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http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_21-5-2004_pg3_2

Daily Times, Pakistan
Friday, May 21, 2004

The political transition in India

..... The right lesson to be drawn from India`s election is that sensible economic management pays but arrogance and bigotry does not. And, above all, that we should have faith in the good sense of the common man exercised via the power of the vote.

---

http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/may2004-daily/18-05-2004/oped/o4.htm

The News, Karachi, Pakistan
Tuesday May 18, 2004-- Rabi-ul-Awwal 27, 1425 A.H.

India`s elections and us
By Inayatullah
pacade@brain.net.pk

..... ..... The India elections - the smooth transfer of political power and the way democracy works in our neighbouring country, should jolt us into a serious and sincere review of how we have messed up our institutions, the administration and the society. .....

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http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_18-5-2004_pg3_6

The Daily Times, Pakistan
Tuesday, May 18, 2004

The great Indian shift
By Rashed Rahman

..... The relatively peaceful huge election exercise (minor incidents of violence notwithstanding) and the peaceful transfer of power have once again demonstrated the strength of Indian democracy, irrespective of warts and all. .....

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http://www.dawn.com/2004/05/16/ed.htm

DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
16 May 2004 Sunday 25 Rabi-ul-Awwal 1425

EDITORIAL
Neighbourhood pointers

..... the intense electoral exercise that our next-door neighbour, facing many of the same problems as us, has just gone through holds several lessons for us. First and foremost of course is that this was India`s 14th general election since independence; we had no national poll until 1970, and since then have had eight elections.

Even this number does not represent democratic progression because of the abrupt dismissal of governments and assemblies, and also because some electoral exercises were tainted by rigging. .....

..... Yet the overall outcome of a general election has never been in dispute, and has been accepted with grace by the losers. .....

..... Even Bangladesh might soon begin to rival us in terms of continuity and endurance of the political and democratic process. Is a comparison with Bangladesh, which was once a part of us, also injudicious? .....

---

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm

DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
21 May 2004 Friday 01 Rabi-us-Saani 1425

Triumph of pragmatism
By Ayaz Amir

..... Every villager in Pakistan knows the story of the farmer who went to a village festival (mela) and there lost his blanket. Looking everywhere for it and not finding it, he said the whole purpose of the mela was to steal his blanket.

Pakistanis can be forgiven for thinking that the whole purpose of holding the Indian elections was to heap scorn on Pakistan. There was nothing unusual about Atal Behari Vajpayee conceding defeat when it became obvious that his party was trailing the Congress. This is what happens in every parliamentary democracy and this was not the first time it was happening in India.

But for Pakistanis this normal exercise was thoroughly amazing. Conditioned to the marvels of military rule, the idea of a peaceful transfer of power after an election, no one crying foul and everyone accepting the result, seemed so alien and unbelievable. They were not slow to express their wonder.

As if this first shock to Pakistani sensibilities wasn`t enough, a second was administered when Mrs Sonia Gandhi declined the prime ministership, passing the mantle instead to Manmohan Singh (honoured son of Chakwal). It doesn`t happen this way in India and it certainly doesn`t in Pakistan.

Consider the grace and dignity Mrs Sonia Gandhi has shown. Consider her measured words, no empty rhetoric (Ms Bhutto please note), no verbosity. Compare this with the desire for eternal power evident in Islamabad and it is tempting to conclude that the Pakistani political class and leadership are simply incapable of getting it right about the country`s affairs.

Like all his military predecessors Gen Musharraf thinks he is saving Pakistan. A bit of Sonian renunciation, or call it Sonian wisdom, should do him a world of good.

The political situation here is so poised that if Musharraf overcomes his fears and settles for democracy, the genuine thing rather than the fake currency we have to soil our hands with, he stands to gain the most. .....

---

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/20040514.htm

DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
14 May 2004 Friday 23 Rabi-ul-Awwal 1425

We don`t get it, do we?
By Ayaz Amir

India goes to the polls and the world notices. Pakistan plunges into another exercise in authoritarian management and the world notices but through jaundiced eyes. Are we so dumb that the comparison escapes us? .....

..... In India, if Pakistanis haven`t noticed, the chief election commissioner is the chief election commissioner. Apart from his mistress, if he has one, no one dare meddle in his affairs. In Pakistan the election commission gyrates to orders from above. Do I divulge a state secret? Everyone here knows this to be true.

When will we wake up? When will we learn? When will it dawn on us that it is not India`s size, population, tourism or IT industry making us look small but Indian democracy? Figure this out how you will, this is how the chips fall.

---

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/may2004-daily/21-05-2004/oped/o1.htm

The News, Karachi, Pakistan
Friday May 21, 2004-- Rabi-us-Sani 01, 1425 A.H.

The failure of our democracy
By Shafqat Mahmood
smahmood@lhr.comsats.net.pk

The success of Indian democracy is a huge blow to the ego. One feels self-conscious, almost ashamed at the ease with which the Indians manage free and fair elections and transfer of power. We, on the other hand, are still ruled by a General fifty-six years after independence and in the twenty first century. Our elections are almost never free
and transfer of power right from the start has been anything but smooth. What accounts for this? What is so inherently wrong in our system or psyche that does not allow democracy to take root or flourish? .....

---

sadna#40:
``For inhabitants of the country overflowing with liberals on our west, only a self-abnegating Hindu is not a extremist/supremacist. This holds true across the whole spectrum of liberals from Naqshbandi to Najam Sethi.``

It is quite unfair of you to blame the liberals on our west. This was the same concept used by the Nehruvian secularists and our western liberal friends are just sticking to the old definition. I know! I lived through that period and was one of them myself once.

nb #40
``Anyway, just by being a Gandhi, the stain of being General Gul`s granddaughter will wash off, she will be more Indian than me, and if I question that, I`m a Hindu supremacist. ``

Understand that Hindu = extremist/supremacist/hegemonist by definition. Add to this that Muslim = liberal by definition, hence being anti-Hindu is liberalism.

For inhabitants of the country overflowing with liberals on our west, only a self-abnegating Hindu is not a extremist/supremacist. This holds true across the whole spectrum of liberals from Naqshbandi to Najam Sethi.

Welcome awaits India`s PM in Pakistani birthplace

By Tahir Ikram

GAH, Pakistan (Reuters) - The people of Gah in Pakistan have a good feeling about Manmohan Singh.

He may have left more than 60 years ago, but this native son has become India`s prime minister-elect.

``I am very happy a son of our village is going to be the prime minister of India,`` said Raja Gulsher, a farmer who served in the medical corp during the 1965 war, one of three fought with India since Partition in 1947.

``If any of the air and water in this place has had an effect on him, he will strike a friendship with Pakistan.``

In a quirky happenstance, both leaders of the nuclear-armed rivals India and Pakistan were born in what is now enemy territory.

Pakistan`s President Pervez Musharraf was born in Delhi.

Both men carry memories of those tumultuous times when the subcontinent was divided, millions of Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus were killed, and Pakistan was created.

Singh has pledged to work with Musharraf to put decades of enmity between their now nuclear-armed nations behind them.

Gulsher said he knows it won`t be easy for Singh.

``We know his constraints. Even then I am sure he will maintain friendship with us. If he comes to our village I`ll be the first to welcome him.``

The pace of life in this rural backwater some 80 km southwest of Islamabad hasn`t changed much since Singh was raised here in the 1930s.

Traffic races over the nearby motorway, but there is no road from it to Gah. Women still draw water by hand from the wells, where Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs of a bygone era once filled their pitchers from separate pools.

They have electricity these days, and some have televisions.

But the modern world makes few intrusions among the mud walled homes or down the narrow uneven lanes of this community of less than two thousand people and their cattle, sheep and goats.

What has changed now is that everyone is a Muslim.

PRIMARY SCHOOL

When Singh attended the government primary school in the late 1930s, Hindus and Sikhs accounted for about half of Gah`s population.

``We used to live without any problem. We used to help each other,`` said Mohammad Khan about relations between Muslims and Hindus. ``They were half of the population. We used to play together, we used to fight together, we used to study together.``

Khan was serving with the British Indian Army in Malaysia in August, 1947 when independence came, and recalls raising a Pakistan flag, while a Christian soldier hoisted India`s tricolour.

Memories of Partition in Gah were less proud.

Baz Khan was 12 years old.

``I was grazing cattle when people came running towards me saying the village has been attacked. I could see smoke and fire coming out of the village.``

Muslims from other villages had attacked Hindu and Sikh households. Some Muslims from Gah, Khan says, gave shelter to their Hindu and Sikh neighbours.

Manmohan Singh`s father moved his family from Gah some years earlier and and during the upheaval of Partition, the dried fruit merchant moved to Amritsar.

Memories in Gah have faded.

Ahmed Khan can`t remember attending class with the young Manmohan Singh, though the school register shows they were contemporaries.

But Khan, while tilling his field under the scorching sun with temperatures soaring above 40 Celsius, said he was proud of the fact today.

``It`s a matter of great happiness. I would want him to be prime minister of India and he should come and visit his village,`` Ahmed Khan told Reuters.

Farmer Mohammad Ashraf at first didn`t remember any Manmohan Singh either.

But asked if he knew a son of Gurmukh Singh Kohli, Ashraf`s seventy-year-old wrinkled face broke into a grin.

``Oh, you mean little Mohna.``

He has no idea what happened to little Mohna after 1941.

``I failed class four, and he passed, after that I don`t know where he went.``

Singh`s new address is 7, Racecourse Road, New Delhi, official residence of the Prime Minister of India. It`s a long way from Gah.

I see your point, harimau, but can we please wish poor Varun well? He`s the brightest of the lot. Since he`ll win an election whenever he wants and become PM whenver he wants, if we are to have The Family, regardless of what you and I may want, we may as well have him.
Anyway, just by being a Gandhi, the stain of being General Gul`s granddaughter will wash off, she will be more Indian than me, and if I question that, I`m a Hindu supremacist.
Now, does anyone know why the authorities in the US questioned Rahul? Did it have something to do with the Colombian link?

# 36

What is this Hindu mentality and where is your logic? It seems logic is a subject they don`t teach in your country.
The mandate you are talking about came from the same majority Hindu population. Learn to differentiate between people and political party. In any case this whole episode has no reflection on Indian Democracy.

By the way is it possible that your soft corner for foriegners is because you people are taught to admire your conquerers and hate yourself?

Regards

Ref teshah #36

[Only a few days ago the world was all praise for the democracy of India where a revolution has been brought about through the vote of the people. The euphoria, however, proved to be short lived when Sonia Gandhi, who was elected the leader of the majority in the Lower House and as such destined to become the Prime Minister suddenly declined to accept the highest
appointment in the democratic hierarchy of India under dubious circumstances. In her greatness she exposed the meanness of the Hindu mentality which wanted democracy only if it meant Hindu dominance. I was shocked personally but relieved also of the doubt I had in my mind about the political sagacity of the Quaide Azam in rejecting the offer of prime ministership of India by Congress if he forgoes the demand for Pakistan. The Quaide Azam had perhaps the bitter experience of the Hindu meanness, which has now surfaced in the BJP in the shape of Sushma Sawaraj who refused to accept the mandate of the people if it meant Sonia as P.M. of her Bharat Mata. But we are reassured also as India has reasserted its faith in secularism which has reduced the extremists in the BJP like Sushma Sawaraj to a mere lunatic fringe now. Sonia Zinda Bad. You are great. You have resurrected the true spirit of India which we all love.]

That true spirit of India was not unique to Sushma Swaraj and the Hindus.

P. A. Sangma, a Christian from one of the Northeastern states (not a so-called mainstream Aryan but from a tribe of Mongol descent) and a former Speaker of Parliament also declared that he would resign from his elected position of MP if Sonia were to become the Prime Minister. In fact, he split from the Congress several years ago and formed the NCP on the basis that Sonia cannot be the leader of India.

Sushma, PA Sangma and hundreds of millions of Indians have accepted Manmohan Singh, a Sikh, as their Prime Minister.

If the Congress had fielded someone with the organizational ability of Abdul Rahman Antulay as their candidate for Prime Minister, not one Indian would have complained. Because, for ill or good, Muslims have been part of India for 1000+ years.

Nor did they complain about electing YSR Reddy, a Christian, to be Chief Minister of Andhra or the continuance of AK Anthony as Chief Minister of Kerala. Nobody ever asks what the religions or the ethnicities of the Chief Ministers of Nagaland, Mizoram, Arunachal Pradesh, Tripura, Meghalaya and Manipur are. At least some of them are likely to be Christian and quite a few likely to be non-Aryan.

As to the intolerance of Hindus, you probably are not aware -- after all, isn`t ignorance bliss and stupidity heavenly -- that it was the ``secular`` Congress and Sonia Gandhi who opposed the candidacy of AP Alexander, a Christian, for President of India when his name was floated by the BJP. Their ``secular`` logic was Indians won`t accept a Christian in both the Presidency and the Prime Ministership and they wanted the Prime Ministership reserved for Sonia Gandhi.

For your information, AP Alexander was a life-long adviser to the Nehru family.

So much for a Christian`s (Sonia) way of thanking someone for life-long service.

I am sure you find it perfectly acceptable that the Pakistan constitution (ha, ha, ha) does NOT permit a NATIVE-BORN CITIZEN of Pakistan to become the Prime Minister or President if he is a Christian, Hindu, Sikh or Parsi. Or Ahmadiyya.

All right, let us look at this scenario:

If Varun Gandhi marries a Pakistani (Muslim) woman, how many of you would want Varun`s widow to become the Prime Minister of India?

What if she happens to be the granddaughter of Gen. Hamid Gul?

Only a few days ago the world was all praise for the democracy of India where a revolution has been brought about through the vote of the people. The euphoria, however, proved to be short lived when Sonia Gandhi, who was elected the leader of the majority in the Lower House and as such destined to become the Prime Minister suddenly declined to accept the highest
appointment in the democratic hierarchy of India under dubious circumstances. In her greatness she exposed the meanness of the Hindu mentality which wanted democracy only if it meant Hindu dominance. I was shocked personally but relieved also of the doubt I had in my mind about the political sagacity of the Quaide Azam in rejecting the offer of prime ministership of India by Congress if he forgoes the demand for Pakistan. The Quaide Azam had perhaps the bitter experience of the Hindu meanness, which has now surfaced in the BJP in the shape of Sushma Sawaraj who refused to accept the mandate of the people if it meant Sonia as P.M. of her Bharat Mata. But we are reassured also as India has reasserted its faith in secularism which has reduced the extremists in the BJP like Sushma Sawaraj to a mere lunatic fringe now. Sonia Zinda Bad. You are great. You have resurrected the true spirit of India which we all love.

#30 Mumbaikar.
Looks like I have seen this post somewhere else :-)

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A potential positive fallout of the new political order is that Chidambaram may become the Finance Minister (though he will have tough competition from Pranab Mukharjee).

If it happens, This is a Dream Team for Indian economy. It can hardly get better than this.

Of course, they should be able to resist the pressures of Sonia`s cotorie and Left.

- Avkrishna

NB # 26

(note Pakistanis are particularly interested in the wishes of the ``Indian majority``. Funnily enough, they`re fairly enthusiastic about dictators themselves)

The Pakistanis have the same natural urge for a civil democratic rule & majority rule for themselves.

They have managed to dislodge 3 military rulers with bare hands; and are now trying their darnest best to get the Uniform removed of the present one.

(and the Indians got Indra`s Emergency once removed)

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legacy of 50 years of congress rule ...


Garbage and sewer EVERYWHERE.

My my... I can definitely understand my Paki friends` concern about majority voice. After all that was how the great tradition of pakistan was founded upon and continues to shine its beacon to the world. Have to admit though, that they are the most altruistic people on earth. They worry about kashmir, chechniya and now the voice of majority of indians.

sparchus,

I agree with you on congress` analysis. Actually from the time that indira gandhi took over the reins of congress, both india and congress have been going downhill eversince. Rajiv only continued in his mom`s footsteps. When seasoned politicians like sharad pawar and others have had to break away from congress, due to encouragement of incompetency and sycophancy, the writing was on the wall. The culture in congress has become one of gandhi worshipping which has no alternative. When i saw this man holding a revolver to his head and threatening to shoot himself for sonia`s sake, i was ashamed of being an indian.
Its time some parties in india openly come out and blame the congress for kashmir, punjab, N.E and other looney policies. They just cannot understand regional aspirations within a country and respect them.

Adios

I note Pakistanis are particularly interested in the wishes of the ``Indian majority``. Funnily enough, they`re fairly enthusiastic about dictators themselves. You have to worry as an Indian when Pakistanis tell you what`s good for you.

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Its all about mind games initiated by BJP. If all of a sudden,she has buckled under pressure, then BJP has a point to prove. I agree that it is contrary to her decision to become the parliamentary leader.

The think tank of BJP is imaginative and innovative. I feel Congress cannot beat them in the mind game over Sonia.

Cheerios

Ref nazarhayatkhan #14

[Jay. The illetrate of the country have as much right to exercise their choice as the educated and the rich.]

Jay, along with others, was questioning their judgment, not their right to vote.

[Their urgent need may be water and not a cellular phone.]

Actually, it may even be a cell phone. Some fishermen of Kerala are given a cellphone by the boat owner. At the end of the day, the owner calls them and tells them which port they should head to to sell their catch. He has spent the day finding out market prices along the coast and directs his boat to the town with the highest prices for fish. That works out better than landing the fish at the boat`s home port only to find that either you have to sell it at a cheaper price or you have to transport the catch by truck.

It`s a relief that HRH sonia gandhi has decided to be out of the reckoning and listen to her `inner` voice.As far as mandate is concerned she never was projected as the next PM by the congress during elections.Yes i agree thet she was involved in a lot of campaigning but that was the role that she played.She visited some 50 odd constituencies, but that does not at all imply that the populace ever saw her as their country`s next leader.This would be like saying that all those persons who were used for campaigning and projecting the congress such as shakti kapoor were looked upon as the next PM of the nation by the electorate.
Annie Besant was an important member of the indian national congress but i do not think Mr.Gandhi would have ever have regarded her as a prime ministerial candidate!The majority of our population lived under the British without much of a violent struggle.There were few nationalists like chandrasekhar,Subhash chandra bose etc whose voice the congress suppressed.Had the world wars not happened the so called successful Non-violent struggle of ours could have come to nought.
The point to be noted sadly is that we as Indians are to bogged down with being goody goody in the eyes of outsiders and are willing to even sacrifice our individuality for this.
I just cann ot seem to digest the fact that the congress party could not pull out one true Indian from a 100 crore to lead them.
The fact that the congress party has to look to a foreigner for leadership just goes to show the level of intellectual bankruptcy that they have fallen to!

Turmoil in Congress/Indian politics

Whatever may be the motives of Sonia`s decision to withdraw, the sycophantic, flowery articles written all over the psuedo secular Indian media as well as by some people here is sad. Just as sad as the vicious personal attacks on Sonia by some in BJP and it`s allies.

Rejecting power when it is given it you is indeed a noble deed, but is Sonia really giving up power? In the spineless, leaderless Congress party, she will always be the de-facto leader, whether she is the P.M. or not. And look who`s being nominated for the post of P.M. (Manmohan Singh and Pranab Mukharjee), persons of probably flawless integrity ( I dont know much about Pranab) but without a mass following and a support base.

Their stay in power is dependant on the whims and fancies of Gandhi family. In fact, Sonia`s staying out of power creates a third power center at the Federal level (PM, Sonia and Left). The PM and his cabinet will never have complete independence to frame policies. We have seen such extra- constitutional power centers in the States (notably Bihar), but never at the Federal level.

Sadly, this is not at all good for India.

What I find more ridiculous is comparision of Sonia with Mahatma. Mahatma/JP Narayan/Vinoba bhave and many other such great leaders not only gave away power they would have had, but also withdrew totally from politics and dedicate themselves to social service.

I would have liked to give Sonia the benefit of doubt for now, but as I said before it is difficult to imagine she completely gives up her power. Let`s wait and watch whether she really renounces political power and only focuses on what she claims to be the social legacy of Nehru. Till then, please dont go either extremes.

- Avkrishna

It is so typically for the Congress, that a person to select, doctor Manmohan Singh, that never won a choice, before yet any idea of the politics, to be has the figurehead. What is more badly has for indian then a dummy or have a Mammi?

``Vox populi is of course vox deo``

Translation- The voice of the people is to use more deoderant.

Oh well, what`s reproduced below is probably the best explanation for ``Madam```s sudden self-sacrificing mood. Enjoy:

Whose inner voice?

Pioneer News Service/ New Delhi


Did Sonia Gandhi step down from the race to be Prime Minister because her ``inner voice`` suddenly told her to do so? Why did this ``voice`` speak now, despite her being elected Congress Parliamentary Party leader and after obtaining letters of support from all allied parties?







Apparently, it was not the ``inner voice`` but certain queries that could have been put to her by the President of India, custodian of the Constitution, which caused her to withdraw her name.



Contrary to attempts by Congressmen and Communists to portray her eleventh-hour retreat as a ``personal decision`` spurred by her children, it could be the clarifications apparently sought by President A P J Abdul Kalam that resulted in the rethink. The President, it is reliably learnt, did not outrightly reject her candidature for the post of the Prime Minister. However, he is believed to have sought certain clarifications on a few points regarding the precise status of her Indian citizenship. In doing so, he may have referred to some pointed queries referred to him by legal luminaries who met him since the declaration of the Lok Sabha election results.



That probably explains why Ms Gandhi`s decision to opt out came only after she emerged from the Rashtrapati Bhawan after meeting the President on Tuesday at 12.30 pm. That could also explain why she did not allow the entourage of allied parties to accompany her for the meeting, contrary to custom.



According to highly placed sources, the President may have conveyed to her that in view of the legal and constitutional queries raised, he would need some more time to examine the matter. Accordingly, there could be no swearing-in on Wednesday, May 19 - a date unilaterally announced by Left leaders and enthusiastically endorsed by Congressmen on Monday without consulting the Rashtrapati Bhawan.



Highly placed sources in the Government told The Pioneer that on the basis of various petitions submitted to him, the President could have sought to clarify a few issues from Ms Gandhi. He is said to have informally communicated to her on Monday evening that certain queries needed to be answered, even as he invited her to have a discussion on Government formation.



On the basis of pleas submitted to him by people like Janata Party leader Subramanian Swamy and BJP leader Sushma Swaraj against any person of foreign origin occupying a top constitutional post, and the legal advice that he had obtained from top constitutional experts, the President could have sought three clarifications from Ms Gandhi. This would be a haunting experience for Ms Gandhi. The BJP leaders had already declared that they would continue to support any form of agitation on the foreign origin issue.



The most damaging clarification that has apparently been sought relates to Article 102 of the Constitution that says: ``A person shall be disqualified for being chosen as, and for being, a member of either House of Parliament`` on any or more of five possible grounds. Clause(d) of the same Article says ``... or is under any acknowledgement of allegiance or adherence to a foreign state``.



The term ``adherence`` had to be clarified specifically as Ms Gandhi in her affidavit before the Returning Officer of the Rai Bareli parliamentary constituency had stated that she owned ancestral property, namely portion of a house, in Orbassano, Italy, the country of her origin. This fact of ownership, legal experts say, makes her subject to Italian law in this matter and could be interpreted as ``adherence`` to a foreign country. Since this portion of the ancestral property was apparently bequeathed to her by her father in his will, she inherited it only after his death. Consequently, the property was not her`s when she filed her 1999 nomination affidavit.



Article 103 states that ``if any question arises as to whether a member of either House of Parliament has become subject to disqualification mentioned in Article 102, the question shall be referred for the decision to the President and his decision shall be final``. Clause 2 of the Article says: ``Before giving any decision on such question, the President shall obtain the opinion of the Election Commission and shall act according to such opinion.``



This means that the President is required by the Constitution to undertake an elaborate process of examining the legal and constitutional issues involved. Thus, Ms Gandhi`s swearing-in could not happen before the matter was fully clarified and resolved.



Another point that came in the way of Ms Gandhi was Section 5 of the Citizenship Act. Under this, there is a reciprocity provision whereby citizenship granted by India to persons of foreign origin is circumscribed by the rights that particular country confers upon foreigners seeking citizenship there.



The crux of this provision of ``reciprocity`` is that a person of foreign origin, who has acquired the citizenship of India through registration by virtue of marrying an Indian national, cannot enjoy more rights (like becoming Prime Minister), if the same opportunity is not available to an Indian-born citizen in that particular country.



While it is not known whether the President mentioned this, legal luminaries pointed out there could be a further lacuna over the issue of her surrendering Italian citizenship. It is believed that while acquiring citizenship through registration in 1983, she surrendered her Italian passport to the Italian Ambassador in New Delhi but did not obtain a formal notification from the Italian Government that her citizenship of that country had been cancelled.



This might be only a technicality that could be rectified in a few days, but it would have certainly helped the BJP raise the pitch of the campaign once the citizenship issue returned to the fore.



Another petition submitted to the President on Tuesday by Sushma Swaraj pointed out that as the Supreme Commander of India`s Armed Forces, the President should examine a key issue. It referred to the fact that a Defence or Indian Foreign Service official cannot even marry a foreign national without permission, or must quit his post. How could a person of foreign origin be handed over the nuclear button in such circumstances, Ms Swaraj`s petition demanded to know.

The chinese curse ``May your wishes come true`` just fell upon the BJP. INC has emerged stronger as a result of the BJP`s attempt to overrule the will of the Indian majority!! The chinese curse works particularly well with bloody minded, racist fools it seems.

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Gajjubania # 13

A political leader does not have to be a specialist in technical fields - he can hire the best by dozens for advice.

A political leader has to have a feel of his society, the direction to be taken and the confidance of the people.

Carter was a far more qualified and number expert than Reagon - but Carter failed and a generalist like Reagon succeeded.

Even the big Corporations have generalists on the top and not technologists or the financial wizards.

As a nuetral observer:

Sonia, by rejecting to become the PM, you have won the elections once over again.

It was wise of you not to become a controversial PM.

Meanwhile, you scored points on your integrity and selflessness.

You have made Kangress strong and strengthened the democratic traditions of India.

You also have made a case for moving Rahul & Priyanka up the ladder sooner than later.

You may also have avoided getting killed yourself.

Jay. The illetrate of the country have as much right to exercise their choice as the educated and the rich. Their urgent need may be water and not a cellular phone. If you do not factor them into the equation, they have the ability to create a much bigger mess and distort the socity.

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re: This article
Deepak,
I am with you here.
Sonia Gandhi should become the PM. It is the democratic tradition. She was the one who the masses voted for. She carries the mandate. But the latest news is: she has declined and thereby saved the congress from constant attack fromt he Right wing Hindu fundamentalist party of ABV. With ABV gone, this party will be slowly wiped out. It stands for only the rich and has completed neglected its social obligations towards the poor. Sonia Gandhi`s stature has grown manyfolds after she declined to be the PM. This is a rarity among powerhungry Indian politicians. Sonia Gandhi is a real gem. Rest belong to the gutter.
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=334652
Sridhar

re:#8 by sri
ABV as a leader had become an embarassment for his party due to his old age and poor memory. He constantly forgot the names of the candidates he was endorsing, even the dates of elections. He is there because he is popular. Other than pen a few lines of poetry in HIndi, the guy does not know much about economics. As far as foreign policy is concerned, he has brought India shame by making it a satellite state of USA, where now foreign policies are being dictated. We know that after so much talk about ``strategic partnership``, US upgraded Pak`s status to non-NATO without even informing India. What kind of strategic partnership are we talking about.
Then, there is this Israel. India needs to reassess its special relationship with Israel. Latter was gvien total access to India`s security details by LK Advani. How can one do this? It is one thing to learn or modernise one`s weaponry or fighting capabilities, it is another thing to completely surrender one`s strategic defense planning to Israel, which is what India seems to have done. This needs reassessment.
This election is a reminder that the focus for any poor country should be to reach out to the poor masses with a broad social agenda even while generating money through a ``free market`` policy. BJP set its sights high and forgot to lookd at the teeming millions below. Its wings have now been clipped by the masses. I, for one am glad that BJP will have time to think and introspect what happened. We may yet see better days for BJP if it does this serioulsy.
Sridhar

Anybody who willingly gives a Prime Ministership, for no visible ulterior motives, has show character. Generally, desis do not even give up a green card, on the basis of principle, much less Prime Ministership.

In Pakistan, there are only a few examples I can think of. Altaf Hussain, head of MQM, never participates in elections. So he is not even interested in being an MNA. He leads his party as a common citizen. Ayaz Amir resigned as an MPA, of Nawaz party, when he got fed up with Nawaz`s politics. However, he did not leave the party, when Musharraf became President to join the Q League, when every other PML person was leaving. And fought this election as a PML(N) member.

The biggest example is, of course, Imran Khan. He refused a Senator seat offered to him by Zia. He refused top leadership positions offered to him by all top parties, any of which would be ready to make him President. He gave up thirty seats offered to PTI, by Nawaz Sharif. And recently, rumor has it, that Musharraf wanted him to be the PM, as the head of the Q coalition. But he went into opposition.

Interestingly, the PM of Pakistan, should have been Chaudhry Shujaat. He is the head of PML(Q), and would have unanimously been voted PM, by his party. But he has not taken any post, nor even Chief Minister or Federal Minister of any ministry. He is just an MNA.

So both the heads of the winning parties, in India and Pakistan, have decided not to become PM........

Anybody who willingly gives a Prime Ministership, for no visible ulterior motives, has show character. Generally, desis do not even give up a green card, on the basis of principle, much less Prime Ministership.

In Pakistan, there are only a few examples I can think of. Altaf Hussain, head of MQM, never participates in elections. So he is not even interested in being an MNA. He leads his party as a common citizen. Ayaz Amir resigned as an MPA, of Nawaz party, when he got fed up with Nawaz`s politics. However, he did not leave the party, when Musharraf became President to join the Q League, when every other PML person was leaving. And fought this election as a PML(N) member.

The biggest example is, of course, Imran Khan. He refused a Senator seat offered to him by Zia. He refused top leadership positions offered to him by all top parties, any of which would be ready to make him President. He gave up thirty seats offered to PTI, by Nawaz Sharif. And recently, rumor has it, that Musharraf wanted him to be the PM, as the head of the Q coalition. But he went into opposition.

Interestingly, the PM of Pakistan, should have been Chaudhry Shujaat. He is the head of PML(Q), and would have unanimously been voted PM, by his party. But he has not taken any post, nor even Chief Minister or Federal Minister of any ministry. He is just an MNA.

So both the heads of the winning parties, in India and Pakistan, have decided not to become PM........

I don`t have anything against her national origin.

I just feel that she is downright INCOMPETENT to rule a complex country like India. That`s all. What the hell does she know anyway ? about handling nuclear command, monetary policy, economic policy, foreign policy, managing states, getting along with diverging view points of various coalition parties, managing disputes between states, etcetra, etcetra.... She neither has the Aptitude nor the vision for leading a country like India. Besides I don`t want the security of the country to be in the hands of a person who waited 15 years to get citizenship. That ought to tell how much she cared for Indian citizenship. Now, some people might try to justify her as a PM by pointing to other idiots like Lallu and Mulayam who are worse. But justifying one incompetent person by pointing to other incompetent people is just about the dumbest argument that anybody can make.

If some idiots are not coming to their senses even after reading this post, then I would say that they are traitors and should be hung from the nearest lamp post.

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When the Spanish landed on the coast of Mexico, the Aztecs didn`t know what their intentions were.

The Aztecs had a legend that their God is of white complexion. They looked at the leader of the Spanish expedition and assumed he was their God because he was white.

The parallels between 16th century Mexico and 21st century India are compelling.

yawn yawn ........... sure man

What a fool. News for you. Your Italian goddess isn`t India`s prime minister and will never be.

deepak shahab,

sonia gandhi herself cheated you..!!

``Sonia Gandhi And the coming of age of Indian Nation``
Yawn..
Yawn Yawn..
Anybody coming for a coffee?