Interfaith Meeting Discusses “ISAAC OR ISHMAEL?”

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Good intentions are not enough. And they are certainly no substitute for clear thinking. Invoking Abraham thoughtlessly is self-defeating. Let us recapitulate:

The conflict of interest between the wife(Sarah) and the mistress(Hagar) never provided an environment to make it easy for Isaac and Ishmael to feel that they belonged to the same family even during Abraham`s lifetime.

In fact, Abraham`s progeny of various brands should find it easier to feel closer to atheists & polytheists who were not part of Abraham`s families from wife Sarah and maid servant Hagar that resulted in cruel situations of the Cinderella genre.

http://www.torah.org/projects/genesis/topic6.html

excerpts:

..... God promised Abraham that his own progeny would inherit him. However, he did not promise that Sarah would necessarily be the mother of his child. And so, when it appeared that Sarah would remain barren, she offered to give her servant Hagar to Abraham with the understanding that the child of their union would be considered as Sarah`s and that Hagar would still remain as Sarah`s servant. .....

..... However once Hagar conceived she became contemptuous of Sarah who took forceful steps to put Hagar in her place, whereupon Hagar fled do the desert. .....

..... An angel of God spoke to Sarah, promising her a son for ``He has heard your suffering.`` At the same time Hagar was instructed to return and submit to her mistress.

When Sarah gave birth to Isaac it was clear that only Isaac would inherit his father. After the weaning party for Isaac, Ishmael scoffed. And Sarah once again complained to Abraham and demanded that Ishmael be driven away. Abraham was disturbed, but upon God`s intervention he heeded Sarah and sent Hagar and Ishmael away.

Once again an angel of God spoke to Hagar promising her that Ishmael would become ``a great nation.``

In both instances Sarah had good cause for being disturbed. First Hagar was given to Abraham with the understanding that their offspring would be Sarah`s child to reared under her guidance. Once Hagar disdained Sarah and her position, Sarah realized that it would be impossible for her to raise Ishmael--who at that point was thought to be Abraham`s successor--thus throwing into jeopardy the whole future of Abraham`s mission.

In the second instance when it was already clear that Isaac was Abraham`s true seed, Sarah had a new concern. Ishmael was a scoffer. He was sure to be a negative influence on Isaac in his delicate and crucial formative years. And so, Sarah demanded that Ishmael be banished from their home. Abraham was at first reluctant, but eventually complied with God`s admonition to heed Sarah`s warning.

God ordered Abraham to abandon his son, Ishmael, and Ishmael`s mother, Hagar, in a desolate desert. God also ordered Abraham to ``sacrifice`` his other son, Isaac, by cutting his throat with a knife.

Well, we have all heard that Abraham went ahead and complied with both the orders. And, fortunately, it was an era of miracles. Bizarre as they were, both incidents mercifully had happy endings.

But this is the 21st century - a century in which God is helping those that help themselves instead of trusting in miracles. In fact, a modern day Abraham would most certainly face prosecution for heeding illegal orders, even if they are from God.

We need to revel in the brotherhood/sisterhood of all of mankind. To that end, we need to abandon our contempt for the ``Golden Calf`` of other cultures. The need of the century is to abandon the ``My Prophet/God is bigger than your Prophet/God`` approach to our quest for spiritual fulfillment.

More than Abraham, we need to celebrate the Eve of Africa whose fossilized remains point to a common ancestor for all of mankind. Harmony will rein not when all admirers of Abraham can get together under a single tent, but when no ``infidel`` is excluded from such exercises in harmonious coexistence.

Children of Abraham have a basic problem that keeps them apart. It dates back to the time of Abraham himself. The conflict in interest between the wife and the mistress never provided the environment to make it a pleasant relationship even during Abraham`s lifetime.

The conflict of interest between the wife(Sarah) and the mistress(Hagar) never provided an environment to make it easy for Isaac and Ishmael to feel that they belonged to the same family even during Abraham`s lifetime.

In fact, Abraham`s progeny of various brands should find it easier to feel closer to atheists & polytheists who were not part of Abraham`s families from wife Sarah and maid servant Hagar that resulted in cruel situations of the Cinderella genre.

http://www.torah.org/projects/genesis/topic6.html

excerpts:

..... God promised Abraham that his own progeny would inherit him. However, he did not promise that Sarah would necessarily be the mother of his child. And so, when it appeared that Sarah would remain barren, she offered to give her servant Hagar to Abraham with the understanding that the child of their union would be considered as Sarah`s and that Hagar would still remain as Sarah`s servant. .....

..... However once Hagar conceived she became contemptuous of Sarah who took forceful steps to put Hagar in her place, whereupon Hagar fled do the desert. .....

..... An angel of God spoke to Sarah, promising her a son for ``He has heard your suffering.`` At the same time Hagar was instructed to return and submit to her mistress.

When Sarah gave birth to Isaac it was clear that only Isaac would inherit his father. After the weaning party for Isaac, Ishmael scoffed. And Sarah once again complained to Abraham and demanded that Ishmael be driven away. Abraham was disturbed, but upon God`s intervention he heeded Sarah and sent Hagar and Ishmael away.

Once again an angel of God spoke to Hagar promising her that Ishmael would become ``a great nation.``

In both instances Sarah had good cause for being disturbed. First Hagar was given to Abraham with the understanding that their offspring would be Sarah`s child to reared under her guidance. Once Hagar disdained Sarah and her position, Sarah realized that it would be impossible for her to raise Ishmael--who at that point was thought to be Abraham`s successor--thus throwing into jeopardy the whole future of Abraham`s mission.

In the second instance when it was already clear that Isaac was Abraham`s true seed, Sarah had a new concern. Ishmael was a scoffer. He was sure to be a negative influence on Isaac in his delicate and crucial formative years. And so, Sarah demanded that Ishmael be banished from their home. Abraham was at first reluctant, but eventually complied with God`s admonition to heed Sarah`s warning.

God ordered Abraham to abandon his son, Ishmael, and Ishmael`s mother, Hagar, in a desolate desert. God also ordered Abraham to ``sacrifice`` his other son, Isaac, by cutting his throat with a knife.

Well, we have all heard that Abraham went ahead and complied with both the orders. And, fortunately, it was an era of miracles. Bizarre as they were, both incidents mercifully had happy endings.

But this is the 21st century - a century in which God is helping those that help themselves instead of trusting in miracles. In fact, a modern day Abraham would most certainly face prosecution for heeding illegal orders, even if they are from God.

We need to revel in the brotherhood/sisterhood of all of mankind. To that end, we need to abandon our contempt for the ``Golden Calf`` of other cultures. The need of the century is to abandon the ``My Prophet/God is bigger than your Prophet/God`` approach to our quest for spiritual fulfillment.

More than Abraham, we need to celebrate the Eve of Africa whose fossilized remains point to a common ancestor for all of mankind. Harmony will rein not when all admirers of Abraham can get together under a single tent, but when no ``infidel`` is excluded from such exercises in harmonious coexistence.

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I can never get over this Abrahmic absurdity, anyway we call him Ibrahim. Whoever gave this idea that entire humanity has been sired by Mr. Abraham did a great disservice to mankind. Maybe we should call the bluff now and see things from what they really are rather than from the prism of ``inter-faith`` cushy-mushy glasses. The fact is that Muslims captured Palestine when Jews had taken a flight to Europe after their temple was destroyed. It was ruled for 13 centuries and then Jews came to reclaim their ancestral property propped up by colonialists.

I like the idea of Hamas and Sharon, ``give no mercy, expect none``. At least, they are clea about their motives, unlike these fat buffons who are enjoying themselves with inter-faith meals. Fools!! If only their family or friends were killed in the fight!! One can understand people of other faiths by trying to visit trouble-torn areas, not by eating mouth-watering recipes in Sacramento, for God`s sake!!

#10 pmishra2

Apparently the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) had no panga with Jews or Christians, mainly because it was the pagan Arabs that made his life painful. So he most generously included them in the `tolerable` category, and, probably because he couldn`t think if anything else, made up this ``people of the book`` theme. Likely story. Pity nobody from India seemed to be around, they`d have got him to include Hindus in it as well and we`d all be happy. Of course which book we`d include would probably start off another epic war ;))))

#7 soundmeister

I wouldn`t waste anytime on this crowd. They are all fixated on the bizarre idea that god has personally communicated with *their* people and that they rest of the world is bad. This Abraham guy is a serious wacko who basically for no good reason destroyed aspects of his family tradition. This was because ``god spoke to him``. A lot of hatred, violence and just plain vile behavior has been justified from these beginnings.

Bringing up hindu or buddhist traditions to these fanatics is just a waste of time. Mr. Abraham destroyed his ``family idols`` ; hence violence against all those who believe in representational worship is A-OK.

With a bit or luck they will soon kill each other. The only problem is getting out of the way while they settle scores.

Binyamin:
I can make sense out of your perspective, but your last phrase is kind of misleading and has some deep rooted bias. Care to elaborate on it?
Thanks.

Food for thought...

CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS, JEWS TOLD SPIRITUALITY, NOT RELIGION, IS KEY
Don Lattin, San Francisco Chronicle, 5/25/04
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/05/25/BAGMH6R5LI1.DTL

U.S. troops attacked a mosque in Iraq, Muslim militants blew up a bus in Kashmir, and Israeli security forces ravaged a Palestinian refugee camp in the Gaza Strip.

In other news, nearly 100 Christians, Muslims and Jews sat down together in San Francisco, shared a meal, and tried to figure out why religion seems to be the problem rather than the solution.

They gathered at a dozen round tables Sunday evening at the new Jewish Community Center in San Francisco and listened to three experts -- a Muslim, a Christian and a Jew -- tell them that the essence of all three religions is love.

Are there any questions?

No hands were raised. No one wanted to go first. Then the ice broke, and the questions came forth.

Is it true that Islamic law oppresses women?

As a rabbi, do you feel like you have to defend the actions of the Israeli government?

Why is it that the more religious people become, they more they seem to fight? Shouldn`t it be the opposite?..

All I can say is- good luck!

Why can`t you people of the book be like us hindus and include everyone in your fold (our satisfied customers include jains, buddhists, jews, even muslims & christians in some parts of the country). They are all pretty much hindus, and that don`t mean they pray to Vishnu 5 times a day or eat only meat that has been bled to death.

#3 teshah

You wrote
``
Islam says Jews and Christans are your enemies and kill those whom you wish to call kafirs.
``
This line is a made up line, and not in Quran. Or one has intentionally twisted the interpration of a quranic context and invented this line.

I challange you.

Binyamin, please elucidate MARGINAL IMPORTANCE.
cHEERIOS

Ras:

Interfaith sessions work very well when certain communities do not get the opportunity of getting to know the other side. Having the opportunity of attending quite a few illuminating sessions in the past few years on the east coast, I found the interfaith sessions quite interesting. Often time, these gatherings can cause havoc if attended by single men and women. In the process of getting the gist of the session, they can easily be swept off by the other side regardless of their religious leanings. That happens as well. So far I have seen very successful bondings between Muslims and Christians but it will take a long time for Muslims to grasp the nuances of Yiddish and Jews to understand the depth of Arabic :)

On my annual or bi-annual trip to California, I have to take a break at one of my homes in Sacremento - my dear uncle`s place. Since he has been settled there for over 3 decades, most of his close friends are both christians and jews. In my view, when people from different religions talk to each other and spend time with each other day in and day out on top of working with each other, they are already in dialogue and do not require dedicated sessions. These dedicated sessions are more needed by families with young children who would like to educate and be educated or who have little or no exposure to other religions. Do not get me wrong...It`s a beautiful concept and a hallmark of civilized nations to step up and get to know each other inside out. Also, nowadays when there are mixed marriages right and left... obviously, the communities ought to be more understanding and respectful of each other.

Thanks for bringing this subject to lime-light.

Is it called similarity; one says it was Ishaque but the other says, it was Ismael? One says it was done in kuba, the other also says so but according to them Kuba meant Kaaba. What the reality or reason has to do with the religious myths. In Pakistan, different sects believing in the same fundamentals of Islam are killing each others followers indisciminately. Islam says Jews and Christans are your enemies and kill those whom you wish to call kafirs. A jews raby has recently given a fatwa that the jews should not have any mercy for non-jews who are all `wajibul-qatl`. The Chiristian religion preaches compassion but their inquistions against their co-religionists and crusades against muslims prove otherwise. Sectarially organized religions are based not on reason but on prejudice and so they can never agree to disagree. The professional religion mongers` vested interest is to exploit religious differences or ceate new ones if there are none as in cofrontation lies their existence. See the religion in its worst in Indian Sub-continent. Congress and the Muslim league tried to solve the sectarian problem by division of India on political basis but failed miserabely as it actually resulted in inceasing the confrontation resulting in wars and now fear of atomic haulocast. True religion is not but the sectarianly organized religion is inherently antithesis to peace and thrives only on cofrontation and ignorance. So it is futile exercise to find a common ground and harmony on the basis of
religion.

I do not see why Christians have to have an inclusion everywhere when the real issues of understanding ( and misunderstanding) are between Muslims and Jews. Christians ahve no role or relevance in most of these issues and should only be given the marginal importance that they deserve..