Luring Muslim Vote

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Instead of indulging in an argument on what are the Muslim-specific issues that the Muslim MPs can better address, I will some day write an article which may provide answer to your repeated question.
As I had pointed out earlier, the demand for better representation is not only from the Muslim community. Other communities for instance blacks want the same thing.
Britain is a country that is trying to become a society where the basic rights of a citizen are recognised without any consideration to his colour or creed. And it is well on its way to achieving this goal.
You come here and you will be amazed to see what a melting pot of nationalities this country is - in particular London where nearly every third person is non-white, according to official figures.
It is a beautiful society where you can largely live freely according to your beliefs. You will see Jews with their long beards and skull caps, Sikhs with turbans and even kirpans, Africans in their traditional colourful dresses, Arabs in their long robes, and of course veiled Muslim women and bearded Muslim men in their baggy suits.
I think this is what a modern society should work towards: magnanimous acceptance for all people regardless of their colours and creeds.

fagdady

Islam was once a catholic religion, attractive to many. Dont make it exclusivist. The demand for separate electorates which lead to vivisection of united india. This issue not only has been intellectually discussed, but had been put in practice in the great india-pakistan (macabre) experiment. Please take a look at that.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Whether ``only Muslim MPs can look out for the interests of Muslims?`` - is indeed a valid question - as raised by an interactive reader.
An MP is a representative of all the voters in his constituency, not just any one portion.
At the same time, it must be noted that the dismally low number of the Muslim MPs, is a major concern here in the British politics.
The political parties are themselves trying to increase the number of Muslim MPs, simply to bring them in proportion with their numbers.
It is a general feeling that Muslim MPs would be able to better understand the Muslim issues - while it goes without saying that a non-Muslim MP is equally responsible for addressing the concerns of his Muslim constituents.
Other ethnic minorities here want the same thing. So there appears to be nothing wrong with this way of thinking.
Having more Muslim, Pakistani/Kashmiri MPs, is expected to work two ways.
a) The British Muslim, Pakistani/Kashmiri community feels more confident, better represented and more integrated - with a better sense of acceptance from other ethnicities.
b) These Muslim, Pakistani/Kashmiri MPs would become role-models for their communities. This may help them identify with these leaders who are good examples of integration in the British society - instead of with the religious loonies.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

wajahat

Just as pathetic a response as I expected.

#35 Ralph

Yep sure we can see how peaceful you are in Iraq and Afghanistan. Bombing Weddings and Abusing prisoners were not exactly the remit of religion in Jesus`s Message. Maybe the Barbarity is in us, rather than the religions we profess to defend.

Keep your prejudices for board where they mean something.

www.rednecksinternational.com

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Wajahat,

Do you have any idea of Arjun`s religion or lack thereof ? How do you know for sure
that he`s not a member of a revealed religion ?

``.....Godra Setup by the RSS``...I am still a little unclear about Godhra. Perhaps you
can reveal to us how RSS set the whole thing up.

I somehow worry that a muslim candidate who wins on overtly muslim (issues felt as relevent by muslims but not necessarily by others) issues may not represent other constituents well.

#30 PZ

I will avoid using and i quote ``use big phrases you dont understand`` as your intellectual superiority and moral authority will out weigh anything I say. But I will be honest and non Politically correct, a religion like Islam allows us to have kinship with every other person in the fold of Islam anywhere in this world, this is specially relevant to all those who are subject to attrocities and mass genocides.

India and Hinduism in India is only an Indian Phenonmenon. I do not consider it a Prophetic religion as borne out of mythology and God (an argument I dont want to get into). Due to the tenets of Islam, I respect Hinduism as a religion and Hindus as offsprings to a great history and heritage, however, when arjun asks me why I feel so perturbed over Murdered Iraqis and proposes that I should really be concentrating on the perils of Muslims in Middle England, I digress. Muslims anywhere in this world, are my problem, because I make it my problem, because I feel their pain and suffering but am helpless like so many others in this world.

Just like every Liberal indian shakes there head atleast and has an inkling that Muslims in Gujrat deserved everything that happened to them because of the Godra Setup by the RSS. We too feel for our brothers in distant lands and rationality, or non prejudiced rationality leaves us and we know who we will side with.

And just as a matter of interest, I do consider Said and Dubois as heroes and great men.

#17 by asgand on May 24, 2004 2:37pm PT

``Secular India, what a joke. The proper term is Hindu India.``

Oh, now you get it.

``Just pull out a 100 rupee Indian note and look at the four faced (one face not visible) lion. To my understanding the Lion pertains to Hindu religion.``

You`re right. ``The Lion King`` was actually funded by Hindu nationalist organisations. Sri Lanka is a Hindu state, not Sinhalese, which is why they use a lion on their flag. The Cameroon soccer team came to be dubbed ``lions`` only after a visit by Mahesh Yogi to Yaounde, and their subsequent mass conversion to Hinduism.

``Now look at the Indian Flag.``
Yeah, do that. See that ugly strip of green across the bottom? did you perchance imagine it represented the environment?

``And how come when I call the Indian consulate in USA I hear ``Namaskar.`` If India is secular then why not just Good Morning as in USA. Don`t tell me is Namasker is secular term.``

You got me. The guy who wished you ``Namaskar`` is a RAW agent, specially placed to spread terror and mayhem through the use of subversive words and gestures. Be on the lookout for a friendly smile or a wave godbye next time you`re at the embassy. More subversion!

``In USA you will find secularism at its best. Gay marraiges in USA are now legal since the majority voted for the measure and won.``
The point being- are RELIGIOUS homos allowed to tie the knot? If yes, then sorry- your country fails the secularism test.

``So India might be an example of democracy but secularism is quite another thing.``
Yes, I am afraid we have a long long way to go before we catch up with the progressive Pakistanis and Saudis.

wajahat #27

Maybe this is what it means to belong to a prophetic religion

I have made this request before. Talk what you want of your own barbaric religion but please DO NOT associate Christianity with it. There is nothing in common with a religion of oppression, bloodshed and murder and one of love for mankind. Christians do not think like your sort. Thank you.

Dear Chowk readers,

First of all let me thank you for the kind attention and the overwhelming response, you have paid to my article on Chowk on British politics.
Some comments deserves replying. One suggests that the British Pakistani/Kashmiri community is lagging far behind several other ethnic communities in education, earning, health, etc. They should focus on these issues instead of wasting their energies on Iraq.
I quite agree with that suggestion. The Pakistani/Kashmiri community does need to focus on more local issues to raise their profile as an ethnic community in the UK.
No matter what is our view, the fact remains that the single biggest vote-puller in the June 10 elections will be Iraq war - not only for the Muslim voters.
Another interactor suggested that my article sounds like a pamphlet for the Labour Party.
The truth is far from it. I don’t take sides when writing. In my article, I have simply tried to lay out the facts before the readers.
It is a fact that the Pakistani/Kashmiri vote can affect the result of around 40 seats in the general elections.
The political parties are fully aware of this fact and are trying to lure the Pakistani/Kashmiri voters.
Parties other than Labour are harping on the Iraq theme to win over the Muslim, Pakistani/Kashmiri voters who have traditionally been Labour votes.
Now Labour is the only party which has ever had any Muslim MPs. For the next general elections, up to now, it has selected three candidates from safe seats, which means come next elections, we may see five Pakistani/Kashmiri MPs - all from Labour.
None of the other parties, despite all their efforts to win over the Pakistani/Kashmiri community, has selected any Pakistani/Kashmiri candidate from a safe seat, which in a way, reflects the hollowness of their overtures.

#31 by nikki7777

FOB fresh of the boat immigrant
ABCD american born confused desi
ABCDEFG ABCD emmigrated from gujrat
PIGS poor indian grad student

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

If anyone wants to know why British Pakistanis are going to Israel to blow themselves up, going to Karachi to help decapitate Jewish journalists, and plot to explode vans loaded with explosives in the heart of London, they need look no further than Wajahats posts....

Wajahat


Hello.

~~I wouldnt expect you to understand arjun as religion nurtured in the isolation of a single country is ...well... your religion~~

Please explain and elucidate your thesis on what is lacking in the indigenous religions of India and the principles and masses of philosophical and spiritual insights that are wanting due to the ``isolation`` of India despite India having absorbed every single religious and spiritual philosophy and movement at some point in its history becoming a most fertile home for all metaphysical and spiritual quests and having scholars pandits saints gurus maulvis and priests that have attained the highest expressions and investigations of religious truths and have not only maintained that great intellectual/spiritual ferment within its boundaries but has given birth to religions/philosophies that have spread outside its borders and regenerated itself through constant and historical corrective religious movements and reformations including the secular rejection of inimical social practice in the modern world.

Please make reference to all the religions of India starting with Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Zorastrianism, Indian Islam, Indian Christianity, Animistic Belief Systems.

Let us know your thought, oh son of Edward Said and WEB Dubois whose heart bleeds for the third world.

(One thing I have noticed in the discourse of Islamists like you is how closely your descriptions and perceptions of non western non Islamic cultures and religions is similar and imitative of ``Orientalist`` discourse as examined by Edward Said, the pomposity of those who come out with phrases like: wouldnt expect you to understand arjun as religion nurtured in the isolation of a single country is ...well... your religion)

Hurry up and answer and dont trip over your tongue and use big phrases you dont understand like you usually do this time.

#15 arjun m

Maybe this is what it means to belong to a prophetic religion, I wouldnt expect you to understand arjun as religion nurtured in the isolation of a single country is ...well... your religion. Maybe you should tell this to your brothers in gujarat who felt so much for their brothers in Godra.

Sheryar

~~Around most campuses in US I visited as a grad student, I was told ``never ever work with a chinese or indian``. What does that tell you?~~

I dont know Sheryar, what does it tell us? Please elucidate. Next we can do a survey about general attitudes towards Pakistanis and Muslims on American campuses and you will no doubt the truth of them? What will that tell you?

~Many of my American friends who are fond of indian food and clothing have very poor opinions about Indian people in general. ~

Right. So they are pompous bigots like you. Congratulations for hanging out with pompous white bigots.

~~Do you think that Indians would ever be so gracious to Pakistanis? Never. Why? Because Indians are too arrogant and malicious by nature.~~

You are a pompous and malicious bigot making generalisations yourself. What a lapdog, sucking on the ass cheeks of white men for the affirmation of his prejudices! Congratulations! ;-)

~~The only religious minority that enjoys favor in India is christians. Otherwise, its basically a hindu land~~

Nobody does Christians any favours in India, they just get on with their lives.

Please come out with some more pomposities so I can laugh at you, thanks.

;-)

The Labour Party says the same things to Hindus Sikhs Jews and Buddhists every month when they get the party grandees up to fish for the ethnic minority vote. Muslims in England need to worry less about jihad and examine why they are falling behind every other group in the UK in terms of educational achievement and employment and focus on that and fix it.

#6 by shehryar on May 23, 2004 7:50pm PT

[I am from Indian origin, but I prefer to tell people that I am Canadian.]

In any case, we have absolutely no use for frikking idiots like you. I would have been flabbergasted if you, with your views, ever called yourself an Indian.

#19 by shehryar

``And I will reiterate that many muslims from India, that I know of, have expressed great disappointment after the gujrat incident. ``

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Can you also tell us how did the hindu students sentiment contrasted in comparison?

Your discomfort with oily Poor Indian Graduate Student (PIGS) is perfectly normal. Their life seems to be firmly supported by four pillars- Deaprtment, Apartment Advisor and Budwiser.

Many other indians and x-indians (east-african brats, bombay cats, and dilli ke billies included) also share your feelings, so you are not alone. I have a warning however, this generally is the first step which later blooms into an obsessive love and sometime even marriage with one of that species.

So best of luck and take care, else you will lead a troubled life of uncontrolled obsesssion mixed with deep self-loathing.

niranjan # 22

Nobody `must be` proud of anything. What we are proud of boils down to our viewpoint.

#17

Does he cut-and-paste or goes through the trouble of retyping the whole thing?

#19...you must be proud of your indian origins...no one is proud of any communal disturbance or violence but you have to understand that these are like meteors that play out fast...the majority immediately step in and quell any disturbance from getting out of hand...a nation of incredible diversity such as india will be subjected to various tremors and quakes in its` social fabric.it is inevitable.what gains india the admiration of the world is that despite the enormous differences in its` national make-up they have united under one flag and given all its` citizens an opportunity to excel...witness india`s president and prime minister from minority communities...its` present cabinet overwhelmingly southern and western indian, presiding over the destinies of all indians..the previous govt. had more ministers from the northern states but they did as much for the rest of india as would the pressent cabinet..india is a mini united nations and just like the UN has its ugly side at times india does too..i live in the US and i`m thrilled by the respect india has among the people here..india as a brand name is recognized all over the world and indians are welcome in all nations either for pleasure or for commerce...you have to give credit where credit is due....the indians hindu,muslim, christian ,sikh,buddhist,parsi,jain or jew have done something right....

The UK is a piddling little place and one day in the not too hereafter all non-white people especially asians are going to get their asses thrown out and there`s no point denying this fact...look what happened in germany,bosnia,turkey and various other piddling little nations where space is a problem....it could happen in the US too, except that there`s a little more space right now...why can`t muslims who emigrate to the Uk just try to get along and assimilate within the culture that prevails there , fer crissakes....i figure if i`m an anglo and i hear a federal minister pandering to a particular community then i will definitely resent such happenings and resent the community that demands such privileges...because of ye guys the rest of the immigrant community is going to get thrown out too..be muslim , be british, be proud..but leave it at that....

# 9: I think so too. Most Pakistanis I see are incapable of handling themselves gracefully. But I must not generalize :-)

# 8: My ancesters migrated from Rajasthan to Tanzania and to Canada eventually.

You are correct that indians hang out with each other on campuses, but those are usually FOBs (manily due to cultural similarities).

And I will reiterate that many muslims from India, that I know of, have expressed great disappointment after the gujrat incident. Do not overestimate yourself, you just appear foolish that way.

the labour party in britain has done wonderful things in britain it laid the foundations of a welfare state the first in europe if not the world the national health service free at the point of need the, envy of the world.it stood against the racist policies of enoch powell and the national front it protected the rights of minorities with the race relations bill.


while i was at university the most frequent comment by indians, pakistanis, iranians,and arabs was that why can`t our countries be like this.

Secular India, what a joke. The proper term is Hindu India. Few examples and definition on secularism.

Definition of secularism from the random house college dictionary:

`` tendency of a political and social philosophy that rejects all forms of religious faiths.``

In the llight os the above definition, I ask this question:

Is India Secular? I do not think so.

Based on the definition of the word ``secularism`` from the random house college dictionary, when applied to any governemt, means that legislation, judiciary and exective branches of the government should not even come close to any religious idea when conducting business.



Just pull out a 100 rupee Indian note and look at the four faced (one face not visible) lion. To my understanding the Lion pertains to Hindu religion. Compared to USA, pull out a dollar bill and look closely. You will not find any relevance to any religion although USA is predominantly Christian.

Now look at the Indian Flag.

The Chakkar pertains to a Hindu king. Now look at the USA flag. You will not find any relevance to any religion.

And how come when I call the Indian consulate in USA I hear ``Namaskar.`` If India is secular then why not just Good Morning as in USA. Don`t tell me is Namasker is secular term.

In fact in USA the famous ``Ten-Commanments`` plaque have been removed from many places by filing lawsuit in the supereme court of USA. There is a recent lawsuit which is trying to remove the word ``God`` from the pledge of alligience.

In USA you will find secularism at its best. Gay marraiges in USA are now legal since the majority voted for the measure and won. Try doing this in India!

So India might be an example of democracy but secularism is quite another thing.

Religion and politics are so intensively entangled together in Pakistan that our country is stuck in the rut and is hardly going anywhere when we compare it to India. When we Pakish come abroad, we bring the same religious loaded mentality with us carrying religion on our shoulders wherever we go and pitch in religion in almost every issue we encounter.

Religion is a private mind and soul relationship between an individual and God. Islam is very dear to me; I like to keep it in my heart, I like to worship it in my house, I like to worship in my mosque. I do not like to externalise my Islam because the moment I do so it gets associated with Bin Laden and others which people in the world hate and despise.

Mr Straw said what he said because we wanted to hear what he said, and he said because he wants our votes. Mr Straw could go next door and say exactly the same to Hindus or any other minority community in the country to sway their support. Therefore to dance with glee because of Mr Straw saying so is naivety and I see no wisdom in author writing this article. All he has done has externalised Muslimism and we could see the criticism streaming out from #1 niranjan and others.


However, I agree entirely with #1 niranjan and I am glad that he aired his honest views trying to put some sense into our Pakish heads.

K. Malik

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

This is a Labour Manifesto and a lot of Junk...

Labour has done nothing more than the absolute minimum any govt would do for any minority. The photo shoots by the PM and the various ministers are as much a justification for their cruelties around the world as a cover up to show how much they care about muslims whilst they bomb them all over the world. Labour and all its cronies are a bunch of con artists.

RESPECT headed by George Galloway is the only Party that really consider Muslims and their issues and George Galloway has proven this by his actions. He has fought for the Muslims whilst our Muslim MPs and Lords are running up to support the Govt in all their attrocities. Vote for RESPECT, Vote for Galloway..

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#6 shehryar...i never said everything is peachy in india and all communities love each other...if you`re of indian origin the tone of your interact would have been different...problems will arise in a multicultural society and fundamentalists of all hues will be prevalent but it is the majority that always prevails...and, the majority in india is by and large peaceful and committed to a democratic,multicltural society...the richest indian today is an indian muslim...i rest my case...the point i was trying to make is that , what has being muslim got to do with worship, residence in an alien land or one`s profession??..why is it so that muslims always have to assert their ``muslimness`` over their ``humanness``..why the proverbial ``chip` on their shoulder, if i may ask??...i`m curious...if almost 200 million muslims can claim India as their motherland and make a mark for themselves in the world stage from ustad vilayat khan,zakir hussain,ismail merchant(of merchant and ivory fame),president dr.apj abdul kalam,cricketeers zaheer khan, irfan pathan and mohammed kaif,actors shah rukh khan,aamir khan,shabana azmi et al..i could go on and on...these are some of the proud indians who have made a mark for themselves in their country regardless of their race, religion or national origin...that`s why india is respested...`cause despite ugly incidents created by a few the majority is secular and ultimately prevails...

You cannot be of indian origin or you wouldn`t belittle your country...i studied in a US campus too and all indians stuck together regardless of which ethnic community we belonged to or language we spoke or religion we professed....

shehryar #6

The reason Indian does not come across as a bully or rogue state is due to its superb international diplomacy.

And why are Pakistanis incapable of `superb international diplomacy?` Is it something to do with birth defects? :)

to urstruly...i`m sick of hearing about the indian elections too...governments come and go...anyone remember deve gowda as prime minister of india...why all the brouhaha now...i`m an indian american and this is the first time the american media has given extensive coverage to the indian elections too...

#6 by shehryar
//...Do you think that Indians would ever be so gracious to Pakistanis?...//

That will depend on where pakis cross the border. Those who cross LOC will be sent to heaven - to meet the huris and gillmans.

Those pakis who cross at wagah with a visa - they can visit whatever dargah or tomb or madrassa. But in general they will be ignored. There will be NO outpouring of ``hospitality``. Considering the way the world treats pakis these days and terrorism and hate campagn that they have executed against Indians - that`s more than what you could expect.

#6 by shehryar
//...Do you think that Indians would ever be so gracious to Pakistanis?...//

That will depend on where pakis cross the border. Those who cross LOC will be sent to heaven - to meet the huris and gillmans.

Those pakis who cross at wagah with a visa - they can visit whatever dargah or tomb or madrassa. But in general they will be ignored. There will be NO outpouring of ``hospitality``. Considering the way the world treats pakis these days and terrorism and hate campagn that they have executed against Indians - that`s more than what you could expect.

If the best the Lib dems have in manchester is Qassim Afzal..I say be afraid..be very afraid!

Personally speaking the Muslim vote will NOT be voting Labour this time, despite admittdely the good the party has done. Politics is not always about give and take, sometimes it`s just raw emotions and the mood amongst the Muslims is very very angry.

# 3 stuka, you are quite right, this article does sound like a pamphlet from Labour Party.

And #1 niranjan, it is true that Pakistanis and Bengalis were deported etc and that India is not on the list of potential terrorist-harboring countries.

However, India is FAR from practising secular administration. Religion is at the core of personal life as well as businesses in India. It would be foolish to take lessons from India that has failed to handle its internal terrorism and conveniently blamed it on Pakistan and other factions.

It seems that you have been out of touch with the internal affairs of India. Let me give you a refresher.

Are you aware of the atrocities commited to the sikhs after indra was assasinated? Thousands of innocent sikhs were tortured and detained (not to mention killed).

Have you heard of the mass graves and torture cells that have been operated by the indian troops in Jummu?

Have Indian muslims no spine that they allowed the Ayodhia mosque to be razed to the ground, or was that part of becoming secular in india?

Did you hear about the riots in 1992 (dont remember exact date) in Bombay that left thousands of muslims homeless and hundreds dead, while the Bombay police silently watched?

And yes, the more recent one. Gujrat incident?? Ring a bell??

And this is your secular India??? You gotta be kidding.

The lesson we can learn from India is that it harbors many cultures and religions that have very different believes and history of conflict. It cannot manage them fairly. But it certainly knows how to sugar-coat itself for the benefit of the world.

The reason Indian does not come across as a bully or rogue state is due to its superb international diplomacy. Additionally, it has produced men (and women) of distinction that have created a good name for their country. India had long been considered a country of fascination and charm by many naive westerners. Not any more, even though it has support from the media.

Around most campuses in US I visited as a grad student, I was told ``never ever work with a chinese or indian``. What does that tell you?

Many of my American friends who are fond of indian food and clothing have very poor opinions about Indian people in general. Many people who appreciate Indians are the ones who see them from a distance. Again its the Indian diplomacy that comes to rescue. And its easy to give illusions to the spiritually hungry westerners.

We all heard about the great hospitality that the Pakistanis showed to Indians at the cricket matches in Pakistan. Do you think that Indians would ever be so gracious to Pakistanis? Never. Why? Because Indians are too arrogant and malicious by nature.

I am from Indian origin, but I prefer to tell people that I am Canadian. And many Indian muslims I know share similar sentiments esp after gujrat incident.

The only religious minority that enjoys favor in India is christians. Otherwise, its basically a hindu land. Its about time Indian muslims realize that.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

I am sick and tired of reading fukking Indian elections. Couldn`t people write on anything else for crying out loud? Here is a prediction. Manmohan government is expected to last 15 months no more no less. Now there you have it - the gypsy curse.

This article is bull because it sounds like a Labor Party pamphlet!!

``“Britain is stronger for the major contribution made to it by those of an Islamic faith,” said the Labour leader while describing the UK as a “truly multi-faith, multiracial and multicultural society”.

Now let`s hear something akin to the above paragraph from a Muslim leader of a Muslim country -- about building in his or her OWN country: a “truly multi-faith, multiracial and multicultural society”.

please...articles such as these sure raise my ire...i`m sick and tired of how muslims should be treated and how ``influential`` they are,sic.....why don`t you accept that you or your forefathers are economic migrants either searching for a better standard of living or the desire to be part of the western world and just BE...I live in newyork and pakistanis and bangladeshis are the two communities with the proverbial ``chip`` on their shoulder always telling all and sundry how wonderful their countries are and how devout they are as muslims...Lo and behold , last april the most immigrants deported from the US were from pakistan and bangladesh, both of whom were on the list of 25 countries, deemed a risk by the US govt....India has more citizens who are muslims than any other country in the islamic world , yet india was not on the list of countries deemed a threat by the US...get the point.??...if you`re from pakistan i guess you won`t...listen, britain is a small ,piddling little land and space is gonna be a problem very soon and guess whose asses are gonna get thrown out first???....look me in the eye and answer me...I hope you will take a lesson out of india`s page...By and large, religion in india is where it should be, in the private domain, between me and my god....the state should not interfere in the faith that a citizen chooses to profess nor should a citizen demand that the state support his faith...separation of church and state....the reason why the islamic world is in such a mess is `cause the line between church and state got blurred.Seats indeed??.what next..Buckhingham palace??.ye people sure have balls...i grant ye that