Hoping, Without Hope

Lets see if there are answers to the questions raised in your essay in things other than machinations of a particular sect or religious system. Also lets note the obvious that depending on point of view all religions can be safely considered to promote `peace, harmony and universal love`, while at the same time the life of all major religions abound with examples of `hatred, killings and extremism`. Presently a burden is being carried by Islam due to understandable factors, and this has not always been like this as we all know. Lets identify one of those factors to be the results of the colonialism and ‘victors` peace’ from the wars of first half of 20th century and before.

Now we as humans have always killed other humans and in name of all things rational and irrational. This is one of those reactions instilled in us humans by nature, which exposes itself subject to conditions. So ‘human-condition’ in a particular moment of time may be considered a common denominator cause. `We` have always managed to convince ourselves with the help of right set of arguments to commit `sins` whenever our natural inclinations and instincts have come calling. Sacrifice of fellow humans is a case in point, which was practiced in the ‘advanced’ societies of fore. Are there any similarities in advancing an army to a war front? Do we see elements of necessary human sacrifice to notions of glory, defense of the nation, etc. etc. to which some kings or leaders convinced themselves to and in turn convinced their people to lay down their lives for, whether those conditions existed or not.

How is it connected to subject? Pakistanis, as other nations may or may not which again depends on set of conditions, have had convinced themselves to or were convinced by others to make reactionary decisions and then justify them in light of broader national interest. In recent past the Islamisation of society (needed for Afghan war?), the support to Kashmir freedom struggle (right when seen in light of morality? wrong when seen in hindsight due to unsuccessful result?), acceptance of Taliban (acceptable as instrument of peace in war torn Afghanistan?), abandonment of Taliban (post 9/11 necessity? who wants to side with losers? need to save its own ass?), abandonment of Kashmir cause (post 9/11 realities of world?). Ok, so now is it any wonder Pakistan has a disillusioned generation at its hands fed on doctrines of now abandoned initiatives and causes?

Believe me that the leaders and thus the followers of these sects at work in Karachi and elsewhere are fully convinced of their being on the ‘right’ side and thus are able to justify their actions. And if one thinks that Islam or for that matter any religion by default would guarantee peace, if not externally then atleast internally, then I recommend rereading history and using scholars which present more than a selective glorifying view.

As deplorable as the incidents in Karachi are, they are committed in rage and are results of a group’s mob-mentality. Can it be said that all of us might have done things in our group of friends which we wouldn’t have done alone. There is nothing more to them then a resultant reaction from a state of mind or from a human-condition. Ofcourse my objective is not to justify these ugly incidents but to try and throw light on background forces. Compare them to actions of ‘rational’ men; war in Iraq, abuse in Abu-Gharib prison, decision to allow honor killing or rape by so called jirgas. See as humans we continuously convince ourselves to do those things that for someone ‘not-convinced’ would be appalling. And also don’t forget Godhara & Gujarat, the problems in Ireland between Catholics and Protestants, Catholic witch-hunts of sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, Inquisition and oppression of Jews and Muslims in the so-called civilized First World of today.

Now who will stop this? Leadership. Which is based on human values not in sentimental ideology, which takes decision in long term ‘one which satisfies the needs of the present generations without putting in jeopardy the satisfaction of needs of the future’ (i.e; sustainable development), so which works to remove disparity between rich and poor. What will stop this? Conviction. When we will increasingly and gradually convince ourselves that a human life perhaps is more important than the ‘protection’ of a certain notion.

Will it ever stop? Never, if you ask me. This is essential human nature like it or not. We will keep convincing ourselves to kill other humans in name of some obscure need, idea or notion. So personally I try and look for answers to such troubling questions in things other than morality and religion, which are just a state of our mind unless we convince ourselves to some things more beneficial in comparison.

You live by the sword, you die by the sword.
Mufti Shamzai was one of the architects of sectarianism and terrorism in Karachi and Pakistan. He was a major supporter of OBL and Taliban. His Madarssa was the hotbed of fanatics, who spread out all over Pakistan and then to India and Kashmir in pursuit of their kind of violence.
He routinely provided shelter to murderers and some of his victims took him out. Too bad but he had it coming.

How this sponsor of terrorists can be called an “Islamic scholar” is beyond me. There was nothing ``scholarly`` about him. He masterminded killings. Do you become a scholar by preaching violence in the new Islamic Pakistan?
It is a pity that he was never booked by the law enforcement in Pakistan for masterminding murders, sectarian violence, and terror.

“These men were protesting against terrorism that led to the death of their spiritual leader.”

His killing is not terrorism at all. That is just an act of violence against a person who lived and breathed violence himself. He unleashed terror on innocent people. He was one of the major symbols of terrorism and sectarianism in Pakistan.

Farheen,

This can only stop when General Musharraf stops talking and starts acting. I have beeen hearing for a number of years about General Musharraf`s vision, his enlightened moderation, but am yet to see any tangible action on his part. He backed down in 2000 when he was thinking of scrapping the blasphemy laws. Now he wants the parliament to look at the Hudood laws, knowing well that the parliament has no power. He gets things done when he wants, but as far as sectarianism is concerned, he hasn`t takien tangible actions.

He needs to CLOSE down ALL madrassahs that are sectarian in nature..and hopefully many others as well..A small number of madrassahs can be allowed to open because it may not be politically feasible to close down all of them...but we know the worldview of these people and that makes them a huge threat to Pakistan..today 16 more innocents have died in Karachi..this will not stop until the goverment takes action over Madrassahs and starts to resurrect its education system..Money needs to be pumped into education, but as Shahid Burki, formerly of the world bank has pointed out, the main problem is the flawed policy prescriptions which will have to be changed. But the education budget will have to be increased.

All this is tied together with decreasing the military budget, and making peace with India since confontation with India has severe economic effects.

But you can even leave the peace with India out of this and still have a major effect on sectarianism once the government starts to do something about these Madrassahs where innocent young minds are manipulated.

We have seen that there is a disconnect between General Musharraf`s words and his actions on the Madrassah issue, and somethind needs to be done abotu this. They also need to change Zubedia Jalal, who is ``proud to be a fundamentalist``. Also, an incompetet, irresponsible and corrupt person like Ijaz-Ul-Haq will have to be sacked from the religious affairs ministry since his father is the man who started this whole business, even though the anti-Ahmadi laws were enacted by Bhutto in the 1970s. But Zia was the one who is most responsible for all this sectarianism.

Can we coin a new word to replace `religion`/`Islam`? I grow tired listening of Islamist Terror groups, Islamic militants, Islamic Jihad, Islamic traditions, Islamic this Islamic that.

I understand that you, the author, write about things that leave an impression on you. But really, where`s the point in this piece of writing - numerous articles of this nature have been generated, numerous arguments and thoughts on Religion/Islam/Sectarian Violence float around us, but has any of that ever made a difference? Are you going to go to those Madrassahs and tell little impressionable kids that the ultimate Jihad is against one`s own demons and that killing people is an unintelligent, uncivilized way to get your message across? Are you going to do any of that? Am I going to do any of that - definitely not. I am out of that country. The only reason all this does more than just disgust me is that this is utter stupidity. There`s no end to it, many will die and many will kill. And trust me, nobody`s a jihadi here and nobody`s going to heaven - if killing/getting killed in the name of Islam was all that was needed, then no one would worry about civilization.

Till then, let`s try to live.

You answered all your questions in the first sentence: we are a backward, third world nation where barbarians live
A friend of mine who runs a small factory in Karachi informed me that he could only do 6 days of work due to the problems and hartals. I guess the people of Karachi need to vote in a different party in the next elections that will try to solve the lawlessness.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

//....Who will stop this? Or rather, what will stop this? ....//

Here is a TO DO list , if followed in letter and spirit, will stop it:

1. Close all madrassas, bar none.
2. Fire the generals, disband the army - with money saved, open ``normal`` schools.
3. Anybody with beard longer than half-inch - send them to Gitmo.
4. Keep the saudis at arm`s length. Ban their money. Ban all arabic korans - only urdu and punjabi,sindhi korans are allowed.
5. Ban following words: jihad, kufr, Kashmir, palestine, chechnya.

That`s a start.

This is scary, very very scary indeed.

Bulle Shah had said:

Masjid dha de, mandir dha de, dha de, jo kujh dhenda

Ik bande da dil nah dhaween, rab dillan wich rehnda

This is humanism par excellence. But what is taught in the mad-rassas is hatred and bigotry in the name of Islam. They are destroying mosques but only to kill innocent human beings whom they call `kafirs`. The only way to stop this carnage is to close these terrorist factories or modernize and humanize their crriculum. But who can do that? These madrissas are producing Firouns and Yazids in thousands but the teaching which produces Musa and Hussain is non existent. So, dumma dum mast Qalandar! Khuda ki khudai khatam, nabi ki nabuwat khatam, musalman ki musalmani khatam, insan ki insaniat khatam, firouny mulla ki mulla gardi zinda baad. Yih he hamara Pakland.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

The following is what the world reads about Pakistan day in and day out. Everything is about destruction. This is not only madrissa thinking. This is the dare devilishness to think of yourself superior to any prevalent law and order. In civilized countries you are penalized to be on the road with a cell phone while driving. Users start buying hands-free equipment to avoid any penalty. Why? By avoiding the penalty, it`s not that the user saves his/her money. It`s because the penalty is a reminder that life is way too precious and should not be taken for a ride. And, it`s not the life of the cell phone user only. The life of those who are on the same road in different vehicles is equally precious. Sense of responsibility is inculcated as soon as you are on the road. In countries like Pakistan, life is not precious to begin with and it`s always taken for a ride. You do not need any algorithms to determine the why(s) and the what(s). The writing is very much on the wall. It`s just the matter of reading it for god`s sake.

This week one of my friends` old neigbors in Islamabad lost their young son (27-28year old) in kidnapping for ransom. The neighbor`s son had just returned from UK after his higher studies and somehow got into the hands of mentally disturbed people who made sure to prove their true mettle. And, they did. He was killed and his family is left for mourning.

---

Bomb Blast in Pakistan Mosque Kills 16
Mon May 31, 9:18 PM

KARACHI, Pakistan - A bomb ripped through a Shiite Muslim mosque in Karachi during evening prayers Monday, killing at least 16 people and wounding 38 others. A top Pakistani official said the blast could be revenge for the assassination of a senior Sunni cleric.

Hundreds of Shiite youths rioted after the explosion at the Imam Bargah Ali Raza mosque, which came a day after unidentified gunmen killed the Nazamuddin Shamzai.

The rioters burned shops and vehicles and blocked highways and the main rail line. Provincial police chief Kamal Shah said two men trying to steal an ambulance were shot and killed. Seven others were injured when police opened fire to disperse the crowd.

The explosion was the latest in a series of terror attacks in Pakistan`s largest city. It was not clear yet if it was the work of a suicide bomber.

Interior Ministry spokesman Abdur Rauf Chaudhry told The Associated Press that the bombing ``could be a reaction to`` Shamzai`s slaying, which triggered riots Sunday across this eastern city and stoked fears of more sectarian violence between Sunnis and Shiites.

The blast cracked walls, destroyed an inner office and badly damaged a room where people wash up before praying at the mosque, which is located near the city center on Karachi`s main highway.

It also shattered windows in a tall building opposite the mosque, leaving shards of glass on the asphalt.

Karachi police chief Asad Ashraf Malik said at least 16 people were killed and 38 injured. He said a body retrieved from the scene was being examined to determine whether it was that of a suicide bomber.

``We have not reached any conclusion yet,`` he said. An investigator at the scene also said there did not appear to be a crater, which suggested a suicide bombing.

A worshipper inside the mosque, Ghulam Ali, said he thought a bomb had been thrown inside from a passing car. He described hearing a thud and seeing a speeding car drive away before the blast.

The mosque then filled with smoke and people inside ran around in panic, said Ali, who was bleeding from his wounds.

``I heard a big explosion, followed by flames from the front of the mosque. And I saw two injured people falling on the road, bleeding, and one had no legs,`` said Ghulam Hussain, a fruit vendor.

Ali Abbas, a young worshipper, tried to push people out of the area, afraid an abandoned bag inside the mosque contained another bomb. Bomb disposal experts later took the bag away.

Saqlain Raza, a worshipper who was parking his motorcycle outside when the blast occurred, estimated that 30-35 people were inside the mosque at the time.

``One 3-year old child was bleeding from the head and stomach,`` he said. ``I carried the boy out and a car took him to hospital.``

Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed said President Gen. Pervez Musharraf expressed grief over the killings and would take an ``important step`` in response. He did not elaborate.

Karachi - Pakistan`s largest city of 14 million people and the country`s commercial center - has been the scene of recent sectarian violence and terrorist attacks. Those include two car bombings near the U.S. Consul`s residence last week and a May 7 suicide bombing at a Shiite Muslim mosque that killed 20 people.

Police have formed a special task force to investigate the slaying of Shamzai, a cleric in his 70s who had been a strong supporter of the former Taliban regime in neighboring Afghanistan and had met al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden.

Witnesses said his assassins included as many as six gunmen riding in two cars and a motorcycle. They sprayed Shamzai`s car with bullets Sunday morning, killing him and wounding one of his sons, a nephew, a driver and a police bodyguard.

Much of Karachi`s violence is blamed on Islamic militants, angered by Musharraf`s support for the U.S.-led campaign against terrorism in Afghanistan, but clashes between rival Sunni and Shiite Muslims are also common.

My prediction about the vicious cycle seems to have come true.
#1-HP:
when i wrote this article, it was in protest of the behaviour of the mullahs over the detah of their spiritual leader. you have mistaken my expression here. i do not consider shamzai to be much of a spiritual leader or otherwise. but these men did so and that is why much destruction took place in Karachi. who will stop these men? who will stop these hooligans from destroying our peace in the name of Islam? and who will stop these men from killing innocent Shias, praying in a mosque. Samzai was not worth this tribute. it makes you wonder where he would be now? rotting in hell?

#8-feedback:
you don`t know what scary is. scary is when your brother, father, son or husband goes to a mosque and never returns cause a bomb blasts exploded and he was shred to pieces. that`s scary.

#5-Tmk:
General Musharraf has no vision. he is a coward and a hypocrite. he doesn`t have the balls to eliminate all madrassahs that have become a den for breeding sectarian elements. infact, it was he, who ran around, begging the mullahs to lend his puppet govt support so that he could rule-undisputed. what can you expect from a man who waged a war on India without any cause or purpose (kargil), killing innocent soldiers and then had the audacity to become a hero in agra?

#4-Syd:
i agree-all i or you can do is write. but something is better than nothing. the pen is mightier than the sword.

unfortunately all people do is talk -- talk its so bad, talk how depressing everything is and talk how much they hate mullahs -- not that i would ever defend musharraf but blaming him for not acting is no worse than those people who cry hoarse about how bad things have become and do nothing -- a bomb happens in madrid and millions of people come out on the street to show their disapproval -- who will do that here in pakistan ?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Omar # 14

Please do not blame Pakistanis. People of Pakistan from the day one warned Mushraf and fauji janta not to lie down in front of US completely. But did he and his goons listen to the voice of people. No. And since then people have been trying to kill him. So what is happening now is the effect and not the cause. Senator Javed Hashmi correctly pointed out to faujis that young officers in Army will not tolerate the unconditional surrender of top brass in front of US. Did anyone listento him. No. And now yesterday Musharaf was whining that sveral young officers will be tried for attempted murder on him. Moreover, he said that army will be purged of the people who have any association with anything remotely religious. It will definitely make the things worst. Do you think that the people who will be `purged` will just quietly go purged? Its anybody`s guess. The point is that this stupid fukk has become the biggest security risk towards the integrity and security of Pakistan. Having absolutely no support among the masses he wouldn`t let anyone, including his own quislings to approach people and solidify their support against war on terrorism. The fact of the matter is that people are totally averse to the concept of `war on terrorism`. You cannot challenge the collective wisdom of people. No one can. People know very well that unless the big satan mends its ways the scourge of terrorism will be there to thrive.

Urstruly:

Your defence is bogus. At best it can be used to defend attempts on Musharaff as an individual. What does killing a 5 year old in a mosque have to do with top brass lying down in front of US?

Stuka

It is simple as 2 plus 2.

Mullah Shamzai was the staunchest supporter of Talibans in Pakistan and as a matter of fact this 79 year old lead hundereds if not thousands of Paksitanis across the border to fight Unietd State`s state terrorism on the state of Afghanistan. And even after the war he was supporting Afghan freedom fighters against crusaders occupation army. The man was strictly a non-sectarian mullah and actually strived for sectarian harmony. The man was a direct CIA hit because he was opposing Afghan collaborators and puppet regime who happen to be shia. Given the sectarian nature of this violance in city of karachi CIA tried to kill two birds in one stone:

1. They killed Mullah Shamzai in a targeted killing

2. Tried to shift the blame on shias of Karachi of that murder by plotting a bomb in their mosque giving an impression that it was sunni retaliation. It will further the rift between shias and sunnis of Afdghanistan and thus help occupiers to divide and conquer.

The shia sunni violence in Pakistan should be viewed with this perspective.

You have to understand the undertones of the western propaganda machinery who started paroting the phrase ``a sunni scholar`` as soon as Mullah was murdered. Why would they characterize Mullah Shamzai as ``sunni scholar`` while his non-sectarian credentials are well estableished they could have just said `` a mulla, a taliban supporter, or a scholar``. And then within 24 hours a bomb explodes at a shia mosque which leaves everyone wondering why.

``Who will stop this? Or rather, what will stop this?``

For all other violent deaths in the world, do people in general have ready solutions to offer? I suspect yes.

For dead Afghans - Since you drove out the Taliban, don`t expect us to protest your deaths now.
For dead Indians, well you deserve to die anywhere anytime until we declare that you have stopped oppressing Muslims.
For dead Saudis, well drive out the infidels from Muslim lands and quit the global capitalist system then we will see. (western-educated alternative - it is justified to keep killing you until you are allowed to vote)
For Iraqis killed in bomb blasts, stop cooperating with the occupier Americans, simple.
For dead Thais, you need to let Muslims secede or keep dying.
For dead Indonesians, all the bombers want you to do is to wind up your nation and submit to a SE Asian Khilafat, what is so bad about that?
For dead NY`ers - in a democracy people need to take responsibility for the actions of their government and Army.

So similarly, to those who die violent deaths in your own country it should be AS easy to say what to do, no?

As always, my best wishes to my pakistani friends. In the immortal words of Omar R. Qureishi, your ``freedom struggle`` has now begun for real. Enjoy it ! So far your ``freedom struggle`` was limited to us useless pagans. But now it has finally arrived in your cities and in your homes. Mubbarakein, Buddhaee !

And please do not condemn this violence as some of the short-sighted people are doing on this list. Imagine the dedication and frustration of the people behind this! Why would anyone give up their lives, unless they were terribly oppressed???

Do not condemn them without understanding the ``root cause``. Be sympathetic and loving towards the wonderful (if slightly misguided) people behind all this. I hope no one will suggest use of police or military to control this problem. Those atrocities will only naturally lead to need for more ``freedom``.

Why not call in the UN and see if a referendum is needed in Karachi? It seems to me that is the best way to proceed. Let justice prevail. Remember, there is never any smoke without fire....

[Sorry, I ran out of the cliches that are daily used to justify violence against indians in Pakistani newspapers. Next time I promise to do a better job]

First Comment:
Dear writer and others -

Karachi, despite all the Shi`a-Sunni-Shi`a killings is cautious and wary at the moment. The question that the ordinary citizens (who largely outnumber any ``bad`` elements) are asking: where is this leading us to? And isn`t that exactly what we should NOT be led into? That is, rioting, mindless mob attacks, panic, chaos. Apart from the perpetual discussion about Mush, terrorists, cross-border hangamas, etc., there is another angle to these particular KHI incidents - which is of ``planted`` riots.

If you study the pattern of the incidents you will note that.... there is no pattern! Sadly, the situation is a little worse than any one or two parties fighting each other out. All at once, this is political, religious, economical, and simply a civic situation. The rioters out there - they have varied motives. And they are instigated by varied elements.

There are no clear agendas. Most of what is happening is by the mindless, for a thoughtless purpose. At once, there are many elements that are active - terrorism has been franchised and branched out far and wide. On the one hand it is supported by mindless folks who only use religion as their only reference to authority and the only-worthwhile-thing-they-did-in-their-otherwise-idle-lives... and on the other hand, by the equally shapeless panic and fright of the sufferers.

What can one say? It is a sad if not hopeless situation.

There was a time not too long ago, when such violence was blamed on India. The general public would channel its rage to these ``foreign agents`` and our incompetent rulers would continue on with their rule. But since in the current climate of ``pak-india friendship`` it is not politically expedient to blame india, Islam has emerged as the scapegoat of choice. The place of ``foriegn agents`` has been taken by ``religious zealots``.

We should take a step back and ask our incompetent rulers what have they done to provide security to Pakistanis? If they can mobilize 100,000 pakistani army on the border with Afghanistan for the security of America, why can`t they mobilize same resources and energy and vigor for the security of Pakistanis?

We should tell these enslaved and feeble rulers that it is THEIR incompetence and THEIR misplaced focus and THEIR ``form of`` democracy that is to be blamed for our crisis. We will not continue to accept the ``foriegn agents`` excuse to overlook THEIR loot of our national resources and playing havoc with the security and inegrity of Pakistan. We will not let these tragic events take away our attention from the fact that these american installed rulers have been good for america and bad for Pakistanis.

Farheen - As unfortunate and tragic the sectarian violence in Pakistan is, the theme of your essay - which seems to look at these events as `maligning` Islam, is rather unfortunate too.

This trend and fashion that has emanated from West of blaming EACH AND EVERY SINGLE issue in muslim world to Islam is also being further propagated by Muslims themselves. This kind of thinking will not lead to any solution. I have yet to see writers like yourself blaming the teachings of Christianity for the Holocaust, the widerspread pedophilia in churches, widespread racism, or the widespread murders in streets. Even though these problems seem to be more acute in `christian` countries, bringing the religion of Christianity into discussion while discussing these would be stupid, wouldn;t you agree? And how many times have you brough the religion of Judaism into discussion when talking about the cold-blooded murders of non-jewish children in Palestine?

These tragic events of shooting at the mosques will not be eradicated by bringing Islam into discussion. These are POLITICAL problems, not religious problems. Yes, we need to look at the way we practice Islam. But that is an ENTIRELY separate issue. There is a genuine political turmoil in Pakistan dating back to 1947 - we must recognize that fact. There are young disenfrnachised people in millions who are hopeless without hope. Pushing every problem under the rug of Islam might score us brownie points with West in the short term, they will not lead to any viable solution.

However, our leaders are happy with this approach, because this way we do not look at the mischiefs they have spread through out our lands.

it will stop...someday....
when this city will loose all his glory and charms :)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

whts hapning in karachi its not sectarian killing or shia sunii fight , once strong hold of mqm is now totaly under controle of fanatic so called jihadies n the idiots who r ruling this city r trying this way to devide them n destroy them n as farheen zehra has mentioned tht (These men were protesting against terrorism that led to the death of their spiritual leader. Their protest was a message to the government to mend its ways before these men turn all their anger loose) this protest was against govt the real govt to stop this nonsens and may alll these continous incedents r hapning jus to build and imresive charge sheet against ????

DAWN editorial says this sunni mullah was a good guy, ``divine`` in fact. He had ties with Mullah Omar but didn`t approve his methods of violence.

``Shamzai ...... A venerated scholar and divine, he had never preached sectarian hatred. ``

So what`s the deal here!

arjun at # 26:

Its Zubaid Jalal who calls herself a fundamentalist in Pakistan, but its in democratic, secular, super-successful, shining India that elected moderates and seculars like Modi kill Muslims and Advani and Joshi destroy symbols of tolerance.

Farheen:

I am taking a short interval from family meets and get-togethers.

You have written an emotinally charged article.

Please understand that at people to people level there is total solidarity and unity against the terrorist attacks. Listening to the folks from MMA and MQM one things come out loud and clear (at least there is a unity of viewpoint here) - there is an unknown force unleashed on Pakistanis by the powers that be who want to divide Muslims along Shia - Sunni lines. As soon as the terrorism occurs, BBC and CNN run the same story culminating in their twist, ``Karachi has seen frequent sectarian riots``. This line is also being unrealistically towed by yourself. We all know that this is not true. There have been no mob violence or Sunni-Shia feuds at people to people level. Actually, the unity has increased. The designs of the evil doers are destined to fail. To divide Pakistanis, they will have to come up with a better idea. This one is bound to fail.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

ref Urstruly-#18
``It is simple as 2 plus 2. ``
It really does seem to be simple,like child`s play,for CIA.
Lets for a moment believe that your analysis is correct..Then, dont we need to think about how come it is so simple to play people against each other, as 2 + 2?

arjun-m

A truck bomb hit the pentagon and not a missile and definitely not a plane; as reported by AP and the evident by the crater in front of it.

Urstruly#18:
``The man was a direct CIA hit because he was opposing Afghan collaborators and puppet regime who happen to be shia.``

That`s a new one for me. I thought that only the hazaaras in Afghanistan were shias, the others, including Ahmad Masood, were sunnis. I had always viewed the Afghan conflict as more ethnic than sectarian.

arjun - after ALL the lies and ``news management`` you have heard from Pentagon over the last few years, I commend you for still being steadfast and giving Pentagon the benefit of doubt. Pentagon, may have been hit by a plane, a missile, or a truck bomb - we will never know. This is the same Pentagon which OVERTLY tried to establish an ``Office of Misinformation``. Imagine what they are upto covertly!

If this many lies, or as some establishment critics grudgingly call ``un-truths``, were uttered by a person, we would stop believing that person forever.

Consider this:

- They lied about Jessica Lynch
- The lied about WMD
- They lied about al-Qaeda - Iraq connection
- They lied about Iraq NOT needing hundreds of thousands of troops after the war
- They lied that Iraqis would welcome American troops with flowers
- They continue to crow that Afghanistan is a ``happy`` place, whereas the facts belie the truth

And that is what i can remember in the one minute that it took me to type.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Arjun:

Dude, you live in DC? I thought u lived in Houston.

rahul-capri/ dost mitter

As a matter of fact, crusaders, headed by the big satan have been having wet dreams about starting a civil war between shias and sunnis since they have occupied Afghanistan. The formula worked quite well in Afghanistan where they have been successfully been able to pit a shia minority against a sunni majority. But the innocent martyrdom of Afghanis have taught Muslims the lesson well. Crusaders are salivating to divide Iraq on ethnic lines. The program was to declare Kurds, Shia south and Sunni triangle to be three independent units of a losely held confederation with Kurds and south shias having all the oil and better under control while the troublesome sunni triangle with no oil to be left alone to its own fate. But it is the people like Muqtada Al sadar who saw through this nefarious scheme to divide their homeland. The plan failed dispite periodic car bombing by ``unknown`` characters in shia dominated areas.

The same game is being played in Pakistan where, plan is to use Baluch territory to attack/put -under siege the state of Iran. For that a considerably hostile environment against shias and hence Iran has to be created first so that when Iran is surrounded there wont be a voice in pak to oppose that as there was when Afghanistan came under attack. BUt Muslims have learned their lesson. They can break our bodies by their bombs but now they can not part a rift between us sunnis and shias.

Long Live Shia-Sunni Unity.

arjun-m

There are only two rogue states in this world that employ ``targeted killing`` as their national policy - Israel and US. Whereas Israel emloys this policy locally almost daily without impunity, the US has been using it effectively since WWII all around the globe. Whether it is attempt on Castro, Dr. Musadiq, Shah Faisal, or almost every other country in South America, they have employed it without hesitation. As a matter of fact US President has this authority by law to order the assasination of any leader in the world without getting an approval from Senate or Congress. And for some strange reasons these two countries are not considered terrorist states by western media which perpetualy writes death sentences for helpless third world nations.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Urstruly says,`` Shamzai was not sectarian``.

Shamzai is stated to have been a staunch supporter of Taliban. Isn`t the Talibani Islam the worst kind of bigotted sectarianism. They called christianity an `abrogated religion`, the preaching of which was a crime in their sectarian law. He was also a leader of the movement for `Khatme Nabuwwat`. What does it mean? This is shear Hamanism; promotion of continuance of Firouniat and putting an end to Musawiat. The result is; whereas Firouns and Yazids like Bush are proliferating there is no Musa or Hussain to challenge them.In fact these Mullas have themselves become Firouns of today in Pakistan with their vast armies of taliban of madrissas. No body dares to challenge them and even that adage `Har Firoune ra Musa` has lost its credibility today. May God help us poor Pakies!

teshah

You are entitled to your opinion (which I disagree with), people have slighted even prophets of God, what chances shamzai stand. I judge people by their individual actions.

Urstruly:
I agree with your views about the neocon plans to trifurcate Iraq to help their ``unnamed`` friend in the Middle East. But I am not sure that they have failed. The true test will come if or when the US troops leave Iraq. That is when you expect the start of ``jootiyon mein daal batna``. I have said elsewhere that you might see a split between the neocons and the oil lobby in the US. The neocons have attained their purpose, a weakened Iraq, and might be willing to leave it now for the Iraqis to fight it out among themselves, but the oil lobby may want to stay to control the Iraqi oil. Incidentally, this is why I am now against the Americans leaving Iraq without ensuring stability. They broke it, they better fix it before they leave.
But that is digressing from the subject. You didn`t tell me who are the other shias in Afghanistan, besides the hazaaras. To me, it is a pasthun/non-pashtun struggle with an undertone of religious moderates versus non-moderates, and not a sunni-shia strife. Even in Iraq, Kurds who probably have the strongest ambition for separation, are sunnis and want to separate for ethnic and not religious reasons.

Could anyone make sense out of this? Who did it?



Troubled Karachi held to ransom

By Syed Saleem Shahzad

KARACHI - Consummated soon after September 11, 2001, the marriage of convenience between the United States and Pakistan in the ``war on terror`` helped turn Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf from a local commando into an international statesman.

But being ``a trusted US ally`` has become synonymous with ``playing with fire``, and Musharraf now faces a stark choice: risk setting the country`s tribal belt aflame, or watch the key commercial port city of Karachi burn.

Starting at the beginning of this year, the US intensified efforts to root out foreign fighters and Afghan resistance figures sheltering in Pakistan`s semi-autonomous tribal areas, and with extensive surveillance, either on the ground or in the sky, even identified several ``high-value targets``. The task of tracking down these people was handed over to the Pakistani security apparatus.

In April, Islamabad dispatched thousands of troops to South Waziristan, one of the seven tribal agencies, but in the face of stiff resistance from the local population, Pakistan`s army bigwigs concluded that ``they simply cannot fight`` their own people. This was not the answer Washington wanted to hear, both in terms of the ``war on terror`` and with presidential elections approaching.

An even tougher approach was needed to get Islamabad to do the necessary in the tribal regions.

Target Karachi
Fatima Jinnah Road in Karachi is a thoroughfare most motorists try to avoid as it houses the US Consulate`s residence, and all traffic is screened by the heavy security presence in the surrounds.

Previously, any incident - and there have been several over the years - in the vicinity has been branded an attack on US interests. However, the twin bomb blasts that occurred just 100 meters from the consul`s residence last week in which a policeman was killed and 17 injured was not taken as a ``serious threat`` against the United States.

``The target of two car bombs that exploded on Wednesday in Karachi was a privately run English-language school and not the nearby residence of the US consul general,`` a State Department official said in Washington.

Musharraf`s eyes and ears, the chiefs of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and Military Intelligence, only too well understand the low-key US response, according to officials close to these organizations who spoke to Asia Times Online.

They maintain that the bomb attacks were directed not at the US but at Musharraf himself, to serve as a warning that he needs to do something, and quickly, in the tribal areas, or there will be continued trouble in Karachi.

According to Asia Times Online sources, US assistant secretary of state Christina Rocca, in a recent visit to Islamabad at which the director general of the ISI was present, expressed concern over possible trouble in Karachi if operations in the tribal areas did not go well.

On Sunday, Pakistan warned of imposing some form of economic sanctions on the people of South Waziristan if they did not hand over foreign fighters, and more paramilitary troops were sent to the areas.

On the same day, though, the high-profile Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai was killed by gunmen in Karachi. As a radical Sunni cleric, he had repeatedly called for a holy war against the United States.

This assassination was followed on Monday by a bomb attack on the Shi`ite Ali Raza Imam Bargah mosque during evening prayers that killed 22 people. The mosque was less than two kilometers from the seminary where Shamzai was killed. On May 7, a bomb killed 23 worshippers and wounded 125 at the Shi`ite Haideri Mosque in Karachi.

Monday`s attack virtually shut down Karachi, with all port operations suspended, as well as the stock exchange. Thousands of security personnel were deployed to control the crowds, and when police fired warning shots at some mourners they were stoned. Shi`ite groups have announced a mourning period of three days, and people are still burning tires and stoning cars, while all the city`s markets have been shut.

Shamzai`s murder had the potential really to set Karachi alight, but key religious figures acted quickly. All the top leadership of the Mutahidda Majlis-i-Amal (MMA), a grouping of six religious parties that controls the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) assembly (the province in which the tribal areas are located), traveled to Karachi for Shamzai`s funeral. Also present were the the leader of the opposition in the national parliament, Maulana Fazalur Rehman, NWFP Chief Minister Maulana Samiul Haq, and Pakistan`s grand mufti, Rafi Usmani. They all worked to pacify the thousands of mourners, who included the leaders and workers of numerous jihadi organizations.

Sectarian smokescreen
The bloodshed of the past few days in Karachi has widely been attributed to sectarian troubles. In one sense this is understandable, as the country, and the city, have had considerable such strife: more than 4,000 people are thought to have been killed as a result of Shi`ite-Sunni violence since the 1980s. About 97 percent of Pakistan`s population is Muslim. In Karachi, as well as in Pakistan as a whole, Sunnis make up about 70 percent of the population, while Shi`ites account for less than 20 percent.

It should be noted, though, that after Monday`s attack on the Ali Raza Imam Bargah mosque, the leadership of Shi`ite Muslims pointedly refused to apportion blame to any Sunni Muslims.

Speaking to this correspondent, a top leader of the Shi`ite community, Maulana Hasan Turabi, said the government had conveniently tried to label the attacks as suicide, even though no evidence of this had been found. He said the police do this as the attackers are said to have been killed and nobody needed to be arrested.

Contacts in the intelligence agencies who spoke to Asia Times Online squarely rejected a sectarian angle. Instead, they pointed to the ethnocentric Muthahida Quami Movement (MQM), which is a part of the present federal and the Sindh provincial government in which Karachi is located. They also claimed that the Sindh police, who are under the thumb of the Adviser for Home Affairs (the MQM`s nominee), were culpable through negligence - at best - in not preventing the attack on Shamzai, even though they had information that it was likely.

A comprehensive report has been sent to Islamabad, to which Musharraf reacted strongly and ``vowed to take major decisions in Sindh province``, according to these contacts.

Initially, it was decided to appoint the former governor of Sindh and minister of the interior, retired Lieutenant-General Moinuddin Haider, as a powerful adviser to the president on Sindh affairs, but after a strong reaction from the MQM`s leader in exile, Altaf Hussain, who strongly opposed any such unconstitutional action in Sindh and lambasted the army leadership, only a face-saving measure is to be taken under which the already weak chief minister is likely to change.

Implications of Shamzai`s death
On the one hand, Shamzai was the icon of the anti-US movement in Pakistan, an ideologue for all jihadi forces and a most respected name for the Taliban and al-Qaeda. More important, though, he was crucial to the establishment as he was never prepared to allow Pakistan to be destabilized, and he often used his influence to quell mobs and soothe passions when they ran too high for comfort.

This dichotomy made Shamzai virtually indispensable to the establishment, but alienated him from hardliners, especially after Musharraf`s about-turn on the Taliban in 2001, which Pakistan had long supported, as Shamzai successfully defused anti-US protests at the time.

Born in 1952 in Swat, NWFP, Shamzai came from a modest background. He studied in Jamia Farooqia, Karachi, and then taught there for 22 years. After that he joined the Binori Town Islamic Seminary, Karachi, where he was a teacher of the Hadith (the sayings of the Prophet Mohammed).

He quickly earned a reputation for speaking his mind in difficult times. He was one of the first to support the Taliban movement when it emerged as a force in the early 1990s. He became famous when the US attacked Kandahar, Afghanistan, in 1998 with cruise missiles in retaliation for terror attacks linked to al-Qaeda in Africa. He immediately issued a religious ruling saying that any counterattack on US interests worldwide would be justified by Muslims. The same ruling was repeated after September 11 when the US announced its attack on Afghanistan. He also signed the first ruling to declare that Muslims who died while defending themselves in South Waziristan would become martyrs, while Pakistan soldiers who died while attacking Muslims there would be considered mercenaries and would meet ``vicious deaths``.

But beyond these convictions, Shamzai believed totally in the nation of Pakistan. When tribals blocked the Silk Route in NWFP to protest Pakistan`s support of the US attack on Afghanistan, on the request of the Pakistani government, Shamzai was taken to the site, and he quickly averted a bloody clash between pro-Taliban Pakistani tribals and Pakistani forces.

Shamzai`s murder not only had the potential to create a law-and-order situation in Karachi. With his death a vital link with Taliban leader Mullah Omar and al-Qaeda is broken. At a time when the US is clearly aiming to build a ``moderate`` Taliban political force in Afghanistan, which would have broad acceptance in Pakistan`s seminaries, with Shamzai out of the picture, there is no one of such influence to oppose such a move, and Mullah Omar could be sidelined.

The MQM connection
The MQM was the dream of a few Marxian scholars such as Rais Amrohvi, Mohammed Taqi, John Ailia and Shahanshah Hussain to establish an organization that could protect the rights of immigrants who chose Pakistan over remaining in India when the sub-continent was partitioned from British India in 1947. The All Pakistan Mohajir Student Organization (APMSO) was the initial reality of the dream. It became established on campuses in Karachi, and allied itself with the left-wing Progressive Student Alliance. However, the Islami Jamiat-i-Talaba, which was ideologically allied with the Jamaat-i-Islami and which had been the main force on Karachi campuses, expelled the APMSO. As a result, its founder Altaf Hussain left his studies and went to the US, where he drove a taxi to earn a living.

At this time in the 1980s, the honeymoon between the Jamaat-i-Islami and military ruler General Zia ul-Haq was over, and they developed differences on several national political issues. The sector commander of the ISI (now retired and still living in Karachi) persuaded Altaf Hussain to return to Karachi and take on the Jamaat-i-Islami. Altaf held big rallies and spoke against Punjabis and Pashtuns living in Karachi. In 1986, a bus driver who happened to be a Pashtun killed a college girl who was a member of a family that had migrated from India. The incident was immediately turned into a riot. The MQM was by now close to many bigwigs in the underworld - it still is - and they had several Pashtuns killed. Pashtuns retaliated in kind, and more.

Altaf then initiated a drive to sell televisions and video recorders, the proceeds from which he used to purchase arms and ammunition. MQM activists now numbered thousands, and they roamed all over Karachi with AK-47 assault rifles and other sophisticated arms. Later years saw the MQM turn against Sindhis as well as Pashtuns and Punjabis. Killings and strikes were the order of the day for Karachi.

In 1988, the MQM won national and provincial assembly elections, marking the all-out defeat to the Jamaat-i-Islami, knocking it from its only stronghold in the country.

The MQM then joined hands with the Pakistan People`s Party (PPP) and became a partner in the Sindh and federal governments. However, this participation in government did nothing to curtail its gutter politics. In the early 1990s the MQM was a part of Nawaz Sharif`s coalition government when its vice president, Saleem Shehzad, now in exile in London, kidnapped an army major, stripped him and beat him like a dog. As a result, the first army operation was conducted against the MQM. However, Altaf fled to the United Kingdom before it began, and he now holds a British passport.

A second operation was subsequently launched against the MQM, commanded by a former interior minister in the PPP government, retired Major-General Naseerullah Baber. This exposed extensive MQM torture cells and ``no-go areas`` in Karachi. Scores of MQM activists were killed in extrajudicial killings by the police.

After Musharraf took over in 1999 in a coup, he helped resolve differences with the MQM, and now it is a partner in the Sindh provincial government, as well as in the federal government. Yet it often remains critical of the establishment, and has the ability to raise rabble on the streets or call for citywide strikes at the drop of a hat.

Because of its declared secular nature, the US has traditionally been closer to the MQM than any other party in Pakistan. Over the years, thousands of its activists have been given asylum in the US, where the MQM has a powerful bureau.

After September 11, the United States identified even more with the MQM as it was the only party in Pakistan that widely mourned the attacks on the US, openly condemned the Taliban and al-Qaeda, and launched a powerful campaign in support of the US attack on Afghanistan. Latterly, the MQM has been the only party to support the military`s intervention in the tribal areas. Visits by US diplomats to MQM offices in Karachi have - and continue to be - commonplace.

Asia Times Online sources say that only US diplomatic intervention stopped Musharraf from taking strong action against the MQM after he received the report on the recent unrest in which the MQM was implicated. Washington indeed has a powerful southern ally in Pakistan.

Musharraf is now carefully weighing the alternatives of taking tough action in the tribal areas, or risking more trouble in Karachi, the country`s commercial center.

(Copyright 2004 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact content@atimes.com for information on our sales and syndication policies.)

If this attack was a blowback of Pakistan`s Kashmir policy and madrassahs, then why are all the attacks concentrated in Karachi and Quetta alone? There are Shia mosques all over Pakistan. There are also madrassahs all over Pakistan. How come there have been no sectarian attacks in Punjab, NWFP and interior Sind since the early 1990s??

Apparently, this was neither a politically motivated attack nor a madrassah inspired one. I am sure Indians will like to bring Kashmir into this to politicize this attack... but there is no evidence to suggest any Kashmir or madrassah link here. The evidence is pointing toward Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, which is still capable of staging attacks in Pakistan despite the neutralization of Riaz Basra and Akram Lahori. The Musharraf administration must continue to hit these people hard while making a clear distinction between those who were involved in the Kashmir Jihad and those with sectarian agendas.

Zehra,

It is very easy to stop the killings. First abandon this idea of sectarian killers and jihadic killers. According to this idea supportyed by all pakistanis assumes that certain killings are a religious duty while others are not. Stop and criticise this idea of individuals taking up on this religious task of killings. That will be stopping the jihad. No you cannot do that, pakistan is an islamic country. Why pakistan is an islamic country, because of TNT, muslims cannot live with people of other religions.

So you see, the root cause is TNT. The political idea of TNT combined with islam has created the most virulent strain of islam in pakistan, the ``jihadic strain of islam``.

Pakistansi are killing infidels in india, afghanistan, philippines, chechniya. Never in the history of islam has any country achieved this. The change will not come internally in pakistan, a generation of TNT children have grown up, and that is why the idea of pakistan has matured now. Only daisy cutters can bring about change in pakistan.

Pakistanis can help this process. Support the jihadis, pay no taxes, send money abroad, do not send children to schools, support honour killings.

Pakistan is on a decline, things will get worse befor it improves. So accelerate the decline so that the eventual upturn is quicker.

There is hope for pakistan.

#18-Urstruly
Mufti shamzai was far from being a `strictly` non-sectarian mullah. He was a staunch supporter of Al-Qaeda. Infact, so much so, that he is considered to be the founding members of Taliban, along with Maulana Fazal-ur-Rahman and ISI. Also, it is alleged that Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden actually met for the first time in Binoria Mosque. Amazing, isn`t it?

Al-Qaeda is an extremist organization. they are not only Anti-Christian and anti-Jew, but also very much anti-Shia. The Shiite Muslims all over the world were and are a big problem for Taliban. For if there is anyone who can actually condemn and stand up against this barbaric form of Islam, it is the Shia faction.

It is a known fact that Mufti Shamzai had issued a fatwa in Oct 2001, after AMerica attacked Afghanistan, declaring jehad. Not only that, he himself took an army of young soldiers to Afghanistanand killed many belonging to the Shia Hazara community. If that is his idea of sectarian harmony, i wonder what he would have done otherwise.

Incidentally, many of Mufti Saheb`s students are involved in terrorist activities and lead terrorist groups whose purpose is to kill Shiite Muslims. And Shamzai has been the spiritual head of many jehadi groups including Lashkar-e-Jhangvi. Wonder what went wrong wih his sectarian harmony sermons?

There are many who point the fingers at the govt. Even that cannot be overruled. Shamzai had great following and it was one of his bright pupils, Masood Azhar, who was the master mind behind taking Musharraf`s life. This student leads the Jaish-e-Mohammad, another one of Shamzai`s pet Jehadi group. Makes you think doesn`t it?

I agree with the fact that this is not a Shia-Sunni conflict. We cannot put every non-Shia in the Sunni category. Doing so, Taliban would also brand the Sunni label, whereas 60-70% of the Sunni Muslims around the world are anti-Taliban. But it is obvious that there is a third party involved in these actions which is not only anti-Shia but is also bent upon creating differences between the Sunni and Shia faction in Pakistan. the timing of the murder and the bomb blast have given this entire tragedy a sectarian touch. It will, of course, serve the purpose of the muslim extremists but as Ahmedzai mentioned in a post, they are mistaken about Shia-Sunni unity. (i really hope so!)

BTW, Shamzai belonged to the Deobandi school-a movement that strongly opposes the Shia sect. And that is very obvious from the workings of the jehadi groups manned by his students. Even then if he talked about sectarian harmony, he was nothing but a BIG hypocrite. And if we all believe this crap about sectarian harmony he preached, we`re stupid.

#23-malik99

I agree, this is a political problem that has been linked to religion. But you forget that in our country, all sorts of problems are linked to religion. And we have General Zia to thank for that. And of course, Uncle Sam!

Farheen Zehra

and oh yes, stop saying things i never said you raving lunatic :) -- jai ramji kee

pmishra2 -- u overestimate the size of your brain -- and, u didnt run out of cliches by the way --

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

I spent last two weeks in Turkey. Traveling from Istanbul on Bosphorous down to Bodrum on the Aegean Sea. Stopped in quite a few regions (cities/towns/few villages) in between these two points.
Besides enjoying the rich cultural & historical sites in Turkey, I was amazed at the religious tolerance in the Turkish society.
There are mosques everywhere, yet alchohol is available freely. There are women in total hijab walking on the same streets with women clad in short skirts & hip-hugging jeans. Men rushing to mosques for prayers while others sitting in cafes near by enjoying hukkah & cold beers!
This is what Pakistan, and for that matter all the rest of so-called muslim countries need, a total seperation of state & religion. Let individuals choose the life-style they want.
Otherwise we`ll have what is happening in Karachi these days!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#48 by dost-mittar on June 2, 2004 7:13am PT
”Could anyone make sense out of this? Who did it?”

“The MQM was the dream of a few Marxian scholars such as Rais Amrohvi, Mohammed Taqi, John Ailia and Shahanshah Hussain to establish an organization that could protect the rights of immigrants who chose Pakistan over remaining in India when the sub-continent was partitioned from British India in 1947.”

I don’t have time right now to take up every BS that contains in this article by Salim Shahzad.
I personally knew all the above so-called Marxist in Karachi except Shahanshah Hussian. Since most of them are dead, people can say whatever they want. Rais Amrohvi was likely killed by MQM. John Ailia had remained under MQM threat for years. His wife still writes for major newspapers in Pakistan and a dear personal friend of mine. She is totally anti MQM. She too suffered several threats from MQM. John Ailia was a non political person and a liberal no doubt about it.
They never had any hand in MQM formation it is complete BS.
The forerunner to MQM, APMSO was actually formed in Hyderabad Sindh. Altaf Hussain was a paid informer to Pak FIA and other agencies. The APMSO was formed to fight the sindhi nationalists students in Hyderabad Sindh and consisted of mostly former Jamaat Islami student wing members.
This article is yet another attempt to muddy the waters in the morass of ugliness in Karachi and Pakistan.

#54 by arjun_m

You still didn`t answer the question. Why are these attacks happening only in Karachi and Quetta? These are the only towns that are easily accessible by foreigners and easy to hide in. If Shamzai was killed just because he was the patron saint of JeM, then his killers have to be RAW agents. Only RAW has a grudge against JeM (and therefore a motive). Pakistan`s Shia groups have no armed quarrel with JeM, and vice versa. JeM has never been involved in any terrorist activitiy inside Pakistan. I seriously doubt that RAW has the muscle and inclination to assassinate an aging pro-Jihad cleric in Karachi especially at a time when the Jihad in Kashmir is already winding down. And besides, Shamzai is a lesser known figure than Hafiz Saeed and Maulana Azhar. If there was a Kashmir connexion here, the first targets would be Saeed and Azhar who were the primary players of that Jihad... not some behind-the-scenes person like Shamzai.

This is a sectarian attack which is unrelated to Kashmir. This smells like the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi versus Sipah-e-Muhammad battle that started in the 1990s, peaked in 1996-2001 period and then subsided.

As for the madrassahs, I agree with you that some of these madrassahs are indeed breeding grounds for Riaz Basra and Akram Lahori types.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

tintingem # 49

I might be breaking a taboo by saying this and I may be branded as a bad guy but as the time is passing by it is becoming a hard-sell to Muslims around the globe to convince them that Al-Qaida is a terrorist organization. Perceptions about AlQaida not only among the Muslims but also among the non-Muslim third world dwellers is fast changing. This is not exactly my idea but a harvard scholar (can`t recall her name) in her latest book has pointed towards it, in so many words. She also included in her list of orgs who have potential to become Al-Qaida allies organizations like some environmentalist groups, anti-globalization groups, anarchists and most importantly the people of the third world.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#63 by Urstruly

I beg to differ with your statement that it is becoming a hard-sell for Muslims to convince them that Al-Qaeda is a terrorist organization. Most Muslims consider Al-Qaeda and its extremist agenda as un-Islamic and terrorist. Although Al-Qaeda has many staunch supporters, they still remain a minority that is largely ignored by Muslim society. I also doubt that environmentalists, anti-globalization groups and anarchists will join hands with Al-Qaeda. These groups are opposed to pressure groups and vested interests within US and industralized nations of Europe. These groups do not believe in a clash of civilizations. On the other hand, Al-Qaeda believes vehemently in a clash of civilizations. Even their methods are different.

However, the only thing that has changed since 2001 is that the Muslim world and especially Europeans are now convinced that America is a greater threat to global security than Osama Bin Laden. Bush, Rumsfield, Cheney, Haliburton scandal, FOX News bias and Abu Ghraib scandal have basically tarnished America`s image.

In 2001, America could use the word ``terrorism`` to describe almost anything it didn`t like... and rest of the world acquiesced. In fact, India, Russia and Israel hopped onto the same bandwagon to discredit the genuine freedom movements in Palestine, Chechnya and Kashmir. However, now the situation has changed considerably... especially in Palestine and Iraq. Although Bush and Sharon are continually describing these resistance movements as terrorism, rest of the world is not buying that argument. Spain even withdrew its troops from Iraq. And Sharon is under increasing pressure to show progress on the Mideast Roadmap.

The current sectarian violence can only be attributed to the prominence given to religion in public affairs. Had Jinnah & Iqbal were contemporary politician & thinkers in Pak, the former would have been persecuted & killed for having a fancy for ham sandwiches for breakfast, & the later would have been persecuted & killed under the Blasphemy law.
Let us face the reality: Pak can either be a theocracy or a modern constitutional republic. It cannot be both at the same time.
Pak is slowly going down the road of becoming a failed state. Its salvation lies in adopting the vision put forward by Jinnah in his speech to the nation.
Why is Pakistan a Islamic Republic when all the Islamic scholars opposed the creation of Pakistan?

#62 by arjun_m

If the target of these attacks had been Musharraf... or a military compound... or US/European diplomats, then perhaps JeM could be suspected of involvement. But Shias? Shamazai? JeM`s literature and Jihad is against anti-US and anti-India, but it has never expressed any hatred toward Shias. In fact, both JeM and LeT contain many Shia muhahids.

As they say, we often define ourselves by defining whom we don`t like. Apparently the people who attacked the Shia mosque, didn`t like Shias. And there are quite a few (splintered but still alive) groups that hate Shias but have never been involved in the Kashmir jihad. This could be one of those banned groups. Other than the sectarian angle, I doubt if there is any Kashmir link here. And BTW, these Shia-Sunni gang wars started in 1986, even before Kashmir flared up.

HE:

It is a fact that HuM has had a sectarian agenda as well has been involved in Kashmir Jehad. The JeM is a relatively new organization. It was founded only Azhar was released on Dec 31, 1999. The HuM got involved in Kashmir in the mid 1990s. The Binori Madarsa was / is a supllier of jehadis to both Afghanistan and Indian Kashmir. Where exactly are you drawing a line between JeM and HuM. I agree that JeM specifically has never advocated an anti Shia agenda. Bbut you are making a mistake by looking at the groups. Follow the indviduals. The guy who tried to kill Musharaff was JeM member who had also fought in Afghanistan. You cannot really draw a line between Jehadis and SSP/ LeJ/ HuM. Within Kashmir, you can triangulate between Hizbul and others.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

HE # 66

Your second and third paragraphs contradict the first paragraph. Like I said, it is a taboo subject yet, and it will remain so for a little while longer.

Dost Mitter

I will have to agree with HP on your cut n paste from Asia Times. I think writer has committed gross mistake by naming people like Raees Amrohowi and Jon Aylia as MQM ideologues. Jon Aylia had clearly leftist leaning but in no way an ethnic ideologue. Raees, however, was a moderate middle and mostly apolitical. The only thing political about him is his daily poem that went on published in a daily for over 40 years every day. I have had an honor of meeting both gentlemen for my college magazine and another magazine that we published in Scandenevia at that time. I have no idea who the third person is. HP`s description of the genesis of MQM is quite correct. The rest of the article is quite accurate as well.

#73 by Urstruly

My second and third paragraphs only said that US and Israel will face criticism and international isolation. You are equating US/Israeli isolation with support for Al-Qaeda. This is a fallacy. European and Muslim countries will continue to prosecute the war against Al-Qaeda while simultaneously criticising US and Israel for their ham-handed actions. Al-Qaeda has made far too many enemies inside the Muslim world (attacks on Shias, Bali dance club, mosques, minorities, diplomatic enclaves, Khobar towers, etc) and inside European countries (e.g. Madrid train bombing, etc). The war on terror is henceforth going to become only a war against Al-Qaeda, and not a war against Kashmirs, Chechens, Palestinians, Basque nationalists and Iraqi dissidents.

For those who are confusing Hizbul and Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, the following link will make things a little clearer. There is indeed a very clear dividing line between LJ/Sipah Sihaba/Sipah Muhammad on the one hand, and Hizb/Lashkar Tayyaba/Jaish on the other. You will never find literature like this (see the following link) on a website or journal of the latter group:

Anti-Shia pamphlets distributed in Quetta before massacre

This link contains a snapshot of a leaflet condemning Shias as Kafir, published by Sipah-e-Sahaba. This leaflet was printed before the attack on a Shia mosque killed 50 worshippers in July 2003. This leaflet was discovered at Madrassah Dar ul Uloom Jamia Imdadia in Quetta. The Pakistani intelligence agencies suspected a `foreign hand` in this attack and Prime Minister Zafrullah Jamali lodged a protest with President Hamid Karzai about the anti-Pakistan activities of Indian staffers at the Kabul and Kandahar consulates.

However, the government was later embarassed when the Quetta press reported that four MMA legislators (3 senators, 1 member of National Assembly, and 1 member of Provincial Assembly) endorsed the anti-Shia content of the leaflet. The names of these legislators are:
Maulana Sami-ul-Haq, Maulana Abdul Haq, Hafiz Hussain Ahmad and Qazi Abdul Latif Kalachawi.

The leaflet essentially declared Shias as Kafir, bans intermarriages between Sunnis and Shias, declares the Shias must not be burried in Muslim graveyards and that Sunnis should not attend their funerals. The leaflet contains the testimonials of Shiekh Abdullah Abdul Aziz (Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia), Maulana Ajmal Qadri (Imam of Badshahi Mosque, Lahore), Maulana Abdus Sattar Tonsovi (President of TASP, a Sunni organization), Mufti Wali Hussain (Rector of Jamia-ul-Uloom Islamia, a madrassah in Karachi) and Maulana Malik Kandahalvi (President of Islamic Ideology Council).

For details check out Hazara.net.

Apparently, the LJ/SSP/SM are a completely different creature from LT/JeM/HuM.

#72 by arjun_m
#68 by stuka

Apparently we are reading different news websites. I have found two other authentic websites that contradict the Daily Times link posted by arjun_m (post #72). The Daily Times link mentions that Hizbul Mujahideen denied involvement in this attack whereas according to the Urdu press (Jang March 3 edition), Lashkar-e-Jhangvi called the Jang office in Karachi and Quetta to claim responsibility for the attack. The attackers recorded a video CD before carrying out the attack. Lashkar-e-Jhangvi is the only Sunni terrorist organization that produces anti-Shia Video CDs and pamphlets. While some Hizbul Mujahideen commanders may be anti-Shia, HuM`s membership is open to both Shias and Sunnis and it has never produced any hate literature against Shias. The Ashura attacks bear the signature of LJ, not Hizb.

Quetta Ashura attack bombers identified as LJ activists

QUETTA, May 17 (Online): Two suicide bombers involved in a deadly attack on a Shiite religious procession here over two months ago have been identified as members of an outlawed militant group, police said on Sunday.

Police have also arrested a constable, Ghulam Haider Lehri who allegedly aided the bombers in the March 2 attack on an Ashura procession in Quetta, provincial police chief Shoaib Suddle told reporters at a press conference here.

``Police managed to identify the two suicide attackers of Ashura procession and five other suspects,`` he said. He said the attackers belonged to the banned militant outfit, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LJ).Lehri has admitted he had been ``arranging meetings of top LJ leaders at his residence for planning such terrorist activities,`` Suddle said.

According to him, other participants of preparatory meetings for the Quetta Ashura attack were Abdul Aziz, Sher Ahmad, Muhammad Jan, Muhammad Dilshad and Commander Manzoor Ahmad.

The attack left 48 people dead including six policemen. It started when two gunmen on top of a building opened indiscriminate fire at the same time as suicide bombers walked into the crowd and blew themselves up.

Suddle identified the bombers as Abdul Nabi and Hidayatullah, who he said blew up themselves with hand grenades. He said investigators recovered a computer CD in which ``the terrorists were shown announcing their war against the Shiites``.

``After completing our mission we will meet in heaven,`` one of the attackers said on the CD. The blood samples taken from the mutilated bodies of the bombers matched the DNA tests of their close relatives who were traced by intelligence agencies on April 11, he added.

He said five other co-accused included Daud Badini and Usman Saifullah, both wanted in previous sectarian violence in Balochistan and expressed confidence they would be arrested soon. Local Shiite leader Ashraf Zaidi expressed ``satisfaction`` over the probe saying that he hoped police would be able to dismantle the ``terrorist network`` in the province.

~~~

And here is how Reuter`s AlertNet news service reporte