Textbook Questions

omar_r_quraishi #157
I agree to disagree, but after being more explicit than in my last post.

Here is an excerpt from an interview with Ahmed Rashid which Dawn itself published in July 2003.
http://www.nirajweb.net/mt/niraj/archives/001682.html

Q. Why anti-Pakistan sentiments run so high in Afghanistan?

A. There was a cell within the intelligence agency not long ago that was working to justify Pakistan`s support to the Taliban in an academic and intellectual sense. It had retired brigadiers and colonels justifying the Taliban rule: that this was the norm - the Afghans were always brutal to women, the Afghans have always been indulging in sectarian and ethnic conflicts, the Taliban behaviour is the normal Afghan behaviour!

We, in fact, re-wrote Afghan history for the Afghans. At several instances, these retired officers had taken words from my writing to support their policies. I had written that Dostum was a brute. So, to them, it meant that all Uzbeks in Afghanistan were brute and, thus, what the Taliban did to the Uzbeks in Mazar-i-Sharif was justified. I was quite horrified by this.

The re-writing of the history in the last six years by the military and the establishment in Pakistan has put us at odds with the Afghan nation for many years to come. They will not forgive us easily. Afghans do not trust Pakistan - the government, the ISI or the foreign office. And even today, we are not prepared to offer any kind of apology to them. How would we feel if Indians start re-writing our history? ..``


--
What the Dawn interview did not reveal was that it wasn`t only Uzbeks, it was mostly Hazara Shia civilians massacred in targetted killings in Mazar-i-Sharif in August 1998. It wasn`t only in Mazar-i-Sharif that Hazara Shia and other civilians were massacred, civilians were massacred in Bamiyan and other places as well.

And it wasn`t only Afghan Taliban who killed them, thousands of their Pakistani jihadis colleagues also participated, and moreover some of those Taliban offensives were backed with Pakistani military help.

The specifics of these incidents have been known and documented well enough for western human rights agencies to warn Colin Powell in 2001 that there would be retaliatory massacres of retreating Taliban during the US war. And such retaliations did indeed happen as predicted.

The cycle of retaliation is also being perpetuated on Pakistani soil, on innocent Pakistanis. And after every such episode, every religious, political or military leader who says piously `no Pakistani no Muslim can do such things` is lying through his teeth and knows it.

Pakistani military brass and their jihadi colleagues do not want to talk of their role in the 1998 or other sectarian and ethnic massacres of civilians.

But until jihad policy supporters, the leaders of jihadi militias and military brass are confronted with the Afghan excesses of their jihad policy, changing the emphasis on armed jihad in public life and education can not be accomplished.

I see your point Sadna....only Omar knows our innermost thoughts. Scary stuff, really. So the only people in India who are not RSS activists are Praful Bidwai and Dileep Padgaonkar?
Didn`t discredit Ayaz Amir, Omar. If he`s going to appear on Aussie TV, people will see him-I thought that was the idea? Look, you complain about people being overly interested in Pakistan. Here, I`m not interested enough to go on Pakistani news sites.( I guess you would like to say that unless you read Dawn, you can`t really know what you`re talking about, wrt India, Pakistan, Iraq, the US, etc. Maybe I should log onto Dawn for my local weather forecast too). And you have a problem with that too? Which is it?

Omar, if you have a problem with the language paki bashers use, please tell them or raise it with chowk. I am not a municipal safai karamchari to go about cleaning up everything. If I see a post that is objectionable, I will mention it. I refuse to take responsibility for the language of a whole group of people.
Ahmed Bilal seems like a really nice guy, but is still kind of weird about India. That is what I mean when I said all of you are deluded when it comes to India. Maybe that`s hyperbole and some of you only have overvalued ideas.
I noted your concern on another board for the AP farmers. Very kind of you, thought I might add to your knowledge. The highest suicide rates are in Scandinavian countries and Finland, not generally known for their poverty-so I`m not sure what exactly your point is there. Alcohol probably has something to do with it, too, but people feeling insecure in their families or societies are more likely to think of suicide, generally, than people facing bankruptcy.Any sensible CM would just add Zoloft to the free rice distributed.
As usual, you`re welcome. Feel free to call again.

nb: ``Omar, since you are so concerned about my getting information about Pakistan from Australian sources`` -- whatever gave u that idea NB ?

and nb: ``Sorry, I`m not interested in having the whole world know about me, sweetheart.` -- definitely not yours dah ling :)

sadna: ``No it is not clarified.`` -- actually i think it is -- and what we have on that shrimati sadna jee is a difference of opinion -- hope u can deal with it :)

veeresh sahib: ``but you, of course, are from a different generation, more aggression in lieu of substance.`` -- and for you shri veeresh jee, may i dare to say `more duplicity and malevolence in place of substance` :) -- veeresh jee here`s some advice for you -- if u want to still pretend to be a friend of pakistan and pakistanis then u have to (to borrow an apt phrase from hellbound) hide the `latent` hate that u have for us and our country somehow -- because u know there`s so much of it that it comes out every now and then -- :)

nb: ``No, I don`t worry what an assistant editor in Pakistan thinks-I mean, when I don`t worry what the Albanians think.... I`ve already told you that when I live in Australia, I can`t have an idea of what Saudi TV says. I know I should be watching al-Arabiya instead, but don`t have the time for satellite TV. Well, you say I don`t get it-who`s got the prejudged mould there? Or is it all right for you to have a prejudged mould but not me?
Sorry, I`m not interested in having the whole world know about me, sweetheart. This is the way it is on internet chat rooms. What do you think I do, btw, when I`m not at the shakha(are there any in Oz)? `` -- nb dah ling i am not interested in what u think or whether u have an idea or not about saudi tv , i only said coz u mentioned it in your last post about assistant editors claiming to know what others think -- i had said or implied no such thing but i suppose this is a hallmark for most interactors on chowk -- :)

Omar, since you are so concerned about my getting information about Pakistan from Australian sources, I would like to tell you about an article in today`s SMH on Pakistani actors, subtitled from harlots to starlets. Pretty interesting. I really admire this woman called Gauhar who says she`s not Mushy`s mistress (good Muslims have mistresses?) because ``he`s a short man who wears polyester. What more can I say?`` I have no idea about her otherwise, but more power to free-thinking women like that everywhere!!

nb #153
If you are an Indian and do not agree with a Pakistan who thinks of himself/herself as liberal, you are an RSS activist. Simble definition.

#150 by veeresh

Veeresh, the rumors are right. Add Jim Morrison, John Lennon and Kurt Cobain to the list as well. All of them are very much alive in CD players of their fans, and they keep inspiring many to pick up guitars and rock. Thanks.

Omar,
No, I don`t worry what an assistant editor in Pakistan thinks-I mean, when I don`t worry what the Albanians think....
I`ve already told you that when I live in Australia, I can`t have an idea of what Saudi TV says. I know I should be watching al-Arabiya instead, but don`t have the time for satellite TV.
Well, you say I don`t get it-who`s got the prejudged mould there? Or is it all right for you to have a prejudged mould but not me?
Sorry, I`m not interested in having the whole world know about me, sweetheart. This is the way it is on internet chat rooms. What do you think I do, btw, when I`m not at the shakha(are there any in Oz)?

I must mention I greatly respect and admire Khaled Ahmed for his fearless writings on matters jihadi.

omar_r_quraishi #148
No it is not clarified.
The Zia period is long gone. However sterling the press`s role in that period, unfortunately, at that time not only a military dictator like Zia but also the might of the US fighting the Cold War had to be confronted, correct? Is that the situation now ?

Until public opinion is mobilised enough to effect a change in the emphasis on jihad in education and public life, the press`s job would not be done, assuming the press does want to effect a change.

To effect a real change in public opinion, IMO, the press will have to lead the public to discuss details about specific events in the post-Soviet, specifically Taliban period. Until that context is laid down for public discussion on jiihad, jihad supporters can win the argument solely based on abstract references to Islam, Pakistani nationalism and threat of India, and without having to answer for specific horrific consequences resulting from jihad policy.

But people in high places would prob. not like events in the post Soviet, specifically Taliban period to be discussed. So that is that.

Omar Sahib . . . I am indeed very glad to hear from you that the pop/rock scene in Pakistan is doing very well. The same fact has been brought out so well by Ahmed Bilal, but you, of course, are from a different generation, more aggression in lieu of substance.

So, Bilal, please ignore the next? Thanks, in any case . . .in fact, I have recently heard rumours that Elvis Presley, Janis Joplin and Jimi Hendrix are all alive, and currently hiding somewhere in the pleasant environs of the Sir Creek area. It is also so evident that Pakistani rock videos are top of mind requirements inside video coaches and video halls, and cinema halls are overflowing with re-runs of Woodstock and The Rose.

veeresh sahib -- so typical of you: ``I am sure Pakistanis knew how to rock, the guys I knew were up there with the best too, but that was the `80s. Those in the Valley and elsewhere, them too. But what about today?`` -- your knowledge of pakistani trucks seems to be as worse as your knowledge of the pakistani music scene these days -- obviously u havent heard of fuzon, noorie, strings, jal, aaroh, ep, haroon, fakhir, falam, hadiqa K, abrarul haq, the mekaal hasan band etc etc, the list is very long veeresh sahib and u probably didnt get to see much music during your extensive pakistani walkabouts -- besides aap kee umar ub yeh thoree hai kay aap yeh cheezain sunain -- dude stick to things u already know about pakistan -- oops that means stick to talking about delhi --

sadna -- i discredited your post for various reasons -- when u guys were called paki bashers 3-4 years ago i obviously wasnt around so dont know what that has to do with my post -- in any case, like i said (and hope uc an read sadna), the pakistani press has been takling about it (the english at least) ever since zia started his so-called islamization policies -- so what happened on chowk is irrelevant -- u asked me if the english press ever brought it up before 2004 and you were told yes it did, as far back as the early 80s when there was military censorship -- i hope this is clarified -- the agent think was a joke, taking a cue from others on chowk -- clearly u cant take jokes from pakistanis well -- as for the maulana and his followers, yes the press does know how strong his `private army` is and that is precisely why i humoured your estimate of his `army`s` strength in my post :)

nb -- dear , using moron i think is much more harmless and less distasteful than some of the language some of the paki bashers frequently use -- and how typical, bringing in where i went to study into the posts -- tch tch -- nb at least i dont hide anything about myself on my profile, why dont u do the same nb -- that way i can at least refer to your educational background too, or lack thereof :)

nb: ``. I have seen Pervez Hoodbhoy on Aussie TV(saying that Mushy had an idea about the nuclear secrets being sold-wow, there`s a surprise-what a rebel), and he once answered an email I sent him in response to an article in outlook. He`s obviously a brilliant physicist, but he doesn`t get it either.`` -- hahaha how kind of u nb -- anyone who doesnt agree with your views or doesnt fit into your prejudged mould `doesnt get it` --

i dont think i ever indicated i claim to know what they think nb but judging by what the paki bashers write on this site, even a little child can tell what kind of people they must be - of course my opinion is based on their posts -- i dont know them personally and i wonder why u thought that i said or implied that i know what anyone thinks -- your posts indicate, to me at least, that u r an RSS sympathizer -- whether you are or not isnt the point and besides u should care what a lowly assistant editor in pakistan thinks about u in any case right -- cowasjee might be pro mush because he might like him as a person but he has been quite anti military in the past -- as for pervez hoodbhoy, seeing him on AUSSIE tv isnt obviously enough -- and ayaz amir writes in dawn and is very critical of the military -- strange how all the names that were given to u were so quickly discredit, though its clear that u either never read their material or never saw them speak except a brief moment on aussie tv and cowasjee briefly on some other channel -- come on nb, u gotta do better than that --

nb: ``As I pointed out to Sadna long ago, yours is a deluded nation, so you`d stand out if you were normal.`` -- wow nb -- condemning a whole nation to the dust bin -- and u claim to be liberal and seem to be soundinglike one -- even i, apparently a big india hater (which im not at all, but rather hate the paki bashers on chowk) would never condemn a whole nation nb -- and i wouldnt want to stoop to your level and ascribe personal traits to u, since (voila!) i dont know u personally -- strange how the paki bashers seem to do that all the time on chowk --

nb:``Interesting you should mention Arundhati.`` -- actually i didnt initially at all , sadna (aka RAW agent) did -- jeez u guys have a habit of misquoting and misreading or what

nb:``The mind boggles that you are apparently the best Pakistan can do when it comes to journalism. `` -- hahahaha -- dont know where you got that from, i never said it and apparently only hellbound seems to have come to my defence -- what readers in pakistan say about what i write is a different story but i dont find them on chowk -- strange NB, very strange -- acha why dont u tell me what your profession is? and dont do a sadna on me

veeresh jee -- the pakistani rock scene is much better than india`s these days -- your movie music scene is ok but the pop bands are nowhere -- and stop with your insinuations already --

#145 by veeresh

Veeresh, one can’t underestimate any artist who is passionate about his/her work. The youngsters of 70’s also had no idea of the impact their music was to have. Some of these young artists are creating great music, so you never know how far their ambitions and talent will take them. In the meantime, enjoy their music. Thanks.

#140
From Afghanistan`s Endless War, Larry Goodson, University of Washington Press, 2001, who also refers to Ahmed Rashid`s `Taliban :Exporting Extremism `.

OK, Bilal Ahmed, I take your word for it, the Paksitani Rock scene is up and running and I do hope that this evolves as a signpost for other art forms in Pakistan too. I sincerely do.

(On another note, however, these youngsters today can never ever hope to come close to the music punched out in the `70s . . .yes?)

Having said that, I would once again go back to my original post (I`ve forgotten the number) where the issue at debate was discrimination against most Muslims by a minority of fundoo Muslims, in Pakistan.

I still think Muslims are highly discriminated against in Pakistan. That needs to be changed. Muslims should be treated equally in Pakistan.