Textbook Questions

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

harish jee: ``#166 by harish_hyd on June 23, 2004 6:01am PT
nb and sadna, our man thinks that by pointing out the problems in India, he`s solved Pakistan`s problems. Bravo, the assistant editor!`` -- hahah dude you`re funny or what -- do u think we come to chowk to solve our country`s problems -- err no -- i dont think pakistans problems will be solved by doing that but paki bashers like yourself and others will know that problems exist in your own country too :)

sadna:``#165 by sadna on June 21, 2004 9:34am PT
Forget about perspectives, for a journalist, you are remarkably uninterested in facts. Stating facts relevant to topic being discussed can not be called Paki-bashing, esp. given that the vast majority of Pakistanis had nothing to do with those facts. `` --

wow , now i wonder shrimati sadna jee if you ever pointed out the relevance of a post to people like arjun or jay or your other fellow paki bashers in arms

nb and sadna,

Our man thinks that by pointing out the problems in India, he`s solved Pakistan`s problems. Bravo, the assistant editor!

Forget about perspectives, for a journalist, you are remarkably uninterested in facts. Stating facts relevant to topic being discussed can not be called Paki-bashing, esp. given that the vast majority of Pakistanis had nothing to do with those facts.

Not yawning so much that he can`t write even if he has nothing to say.
hmm....

nb: ``I see your point Sadna....only Omar knows our innermost thoughts. Scary stuff, really. So the only people in India who are not RSS activists are Praful Bidwai and Dileep Padgaonkar? Didn`t discredit Ayaz Amir, Omar. If he`s going to appear on Aussie TV, people will see him-I thought that was the idea? Look, you complain about people being overly interested in Pakistan. Here, I`m not interested enough to go on Pakistani news sites.( I guess you would like to say that unless you read Dawn, you can`t really know what you`re talking about, wrt India, Pakistan, Iraq, the US, etc. Maybe I should log onto Dawn for my local weather forecast too). And you have a problem with that too? Which is it?``

-- yawn

---

plz read my posting #157 again (that is if u want to) -- actually i dont complain about people being overly interested in pakistan at all but what i do say is that they lack a perspective and which is that is south asia has immense problems and that pakistan doesnt have 98 per cent of them, which is what the paki bashers here seem to think -- dont know why that is so difficult to figure out (my opinion that is, which by the way u dont have to agree with, but then again look at what the paki bashers post) -- they are called paki bashers for a reason nb -- see your dear friend shrimati sadna jee just doesnt get it (#161 is proof) -- the point isnt that pakistan is very good and that nothing bad happens here but that hey look at india too and u will find it isnt all hunky dory -- but i understand because people like sadna are too obsessed or in a permanent anti pakistan mode and THATS WHY its okay to label them paki bashers ....

nb: ``You started with the dears, which I thought was very Indian, must be South Asian.`` -- errr its quite commonly used in pakistan too, more than most indians here would tend to think --

nb: ``Omar, if you have a problem with the language paki bashers use, please tell them or raise it with chowk. I am not a municipal safai karamchari to go about cleaning up everything. If I see a post that is objectionable, I will mention it. I refuse to take responsibility for the language of a whole group of people. Ahmed Bilal seems like a really nice guy, but is still kind of weird about India. That is what I mean when I said all of you are deluded when it comes to India. Maybe that`s hyperbole and some of you only have overvalued ideas. `` -- nb if i have a problem i can state it in my posts which i do all the time -- never asked u to anything about it by the way --

nb: ``The highest suicide rates are in Scandinavian countries and Finland, not generally known for their poverty-so I`m not sure what exactly your point is there`` -- my point, dear, is tha if pakistan has problems then india has some of its own too, and pretty big ones, and if pakistani interactors wish to discuss them here it shouldnt invite too much abuse or derision -- :)

wonder what the paki-bashers will say about this:

BJP stands by Modi

NEW DELHI, June 20: India`s opposition Hindu nationalists on Sunday shot down renewed calls to dismiss Gujarat`s hardline leader, who is accused of abetting anti-Muslim violence in the western state.

``There is no proposal to change the leadership of Gujarat at this juncture,`` Venkaiah Naidu, president of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), told reporters after a meeting of top party leaders in New Delhi.

Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi had come under fresh scrutiny after police said they gunned down four Muslims, including a 19-year-old woman, last Tuesday because they allegedly plotted to assassinate the state leader.

India`s ruling Congress party has suggested that the shootout was a set-up to build sympathy for Modi and demanded an impartial probe. Former prime minister Atal Behari Vajpayee, breaking with his party`s longstanding backing of Modi, said last week that a BJP national meeting set to start on Tuesday in Mumbai would consider replacing the Gujarat leader.

Vajpayee also said for the first time that anti-Muslim riots in Gujarat, which left 2,000 people dead in 2002, contributed to the BJP`s upset election defeat in April-May elections.

But Vajpayee`s remarks led hardliners to rally around Modi, who had been facing calls for his resignation even from some BJP lawmakers in Gujarat. Vajpayee took part in Sunday`s BJP meeting, which was seen as an attempt to clear up intra-party disputes instead of airing them publicly at the Mumbai convention. -AFP

Omar, you`re denying previous posts. I know you`re a busy man, but still..it`s in black and white, but I can`t be bothered to go digging. You started with the dears, which I thought was very Indian, must be South Asian.
See you then, because you`ve run out of things to say-admittedly there weren`t a lot to start with.

omar_r_quraishi #157
I agree to disagree, but after being more explicit than in my last post.

Here is an excerpt from an interview with Ahmed Rashid which Dawn itself published in July 2003.
http://www.nirajweb.net/mt/niraj/archives/001682.html

Q. Why anti-Pakistan sentiments run so high in Afghanistan?

A. There was a cell within the intelligence agency not long ago that was working to justify Pakistan`s support to the Taliban in an academic and intellectual sense. It had retired brigadiers and colonels justifying the Taliban rule: that this was the norm - the Afghans were always brutal to women, the Afghans have always been indulging in sectarian and ethnic conflicts, the Taliban behaviour is the normal Afghan behaviour!

We, in fact, re-wrote Afghan history for the Afghans. At several instances, these retired officers had taken words from my writing to support their policies. I had written that Dostum was a brute. So, to them, it meant that all Uzbeks in Afghanistan were brute and, thus, what the Taliban did to the Uzbeks in Mazar-i-Sharif was justified. I was quite horrified by this.

The re-writing of the history in the last six years by the military and the establishment in Pakistan has put us at odds with the Afghan nation for many years to come. They will not forgive us easily. Afghans do not trust Pakistan - the government, the ISI or the foreign office. And even today, we are not prepared to offer any kind of apology to them. How would we feel if Indians start re-writing our history? ..``


--
What the Dawn interview did not reveal was that it wasn`t only Uzbeks, it was mostly Hazara Shia civilians massacred in targetted killings in Mazar-i-Sharif in August 1998. It wasn`t only in Mazar-i-Sharif that Hazara Shia and other civilians were massacred, civilians were massacred in Bamiyan and other places as well.

And it wasn`t only Afghan Taliban who killed them, thousands of their Pakistani jihadis colleagues also participated, and moreover some of those Taliban offensives were backed with Pakistani military help.

The specifics of these incidents have been known and documented well enough for western human rights agencies to warn Colin Powell in 2001 that there would be retaliatory massacres of retreating Taliban during the US war. And such retaliations did indeed happen as predicted.

The cycle of retaliation is also being perpetuated on Pakistani soil, on innocent Pakistanis. And after every such episode, every religious, political or military leader who says piously `no Pakistani no Muslim can do such things` is lying through his teeth and knows it.

Pakistani military brass and their jihadi colleagues do not want to talk of their role in the 1998 or other sectarian and ethnic massacres of civilians.

But until jihad policy supporters, the leaders of jihadi militias and military brass are confronted with the Afghan excesses of their jihad policy, changing the emphasis on armed jihad in public life and education can not be accomplished.

I see your point Sadna....only Omar knows our innermost thoughts. Scary stuff, really. So the only people in India who are not RSS activists are Praful Bidwai and Dileep Padgaonkar?
Didn`t discredit Ayaz Amir, Omar. If he`s going to appear on Aussie TV, people will see him-I thought that was the idea? Look, you complain about people being overly interested in Pakistan. Here, I`m not interested enough to go on Pakistani news sites.( I guess you would like to say that unless you read Dawn, you can`t really know what you`re talking about, wrt India, Pakistan, Iraq, the US, etc. Maybe I should log onto Dawn for my local weather forecast too). And you have a problem with that too? Which is it?

Omar, if you have a problem with the language paki bashers use, please tell them or raise it with chowk. I am not a municipal safai karamchari to go about cleaning up everything. If I see a post that is objectionable, I will mention it. I refuse to take responsibility for the language of a whole group of people.
Ahmed Bilal seems like a really nice guy, but is still kind of weird about India. That is what I mean when I said all of you are deluded when it comes to India. Maybe that`s hyperbole and some of you only have overvalued ideas.
I noted your concern on another board for the AP farmers. Very kind of you, thought I might add to your knowledge. The highest suicide rates are in Scandinavian countries and Finland, not generally known for their poverty-so I`m not sure what exactly your point is there. Alcohol probably has something to do with it, too, but people feeling insecure in their families or societies are more likely to think of suicide, generally, than people facing bankruptcy.Any sensible CM would just add Zoloft to the free rice distributed.
As usual, you`re welcome. Feel free to call again.

nb: ``Omar, since you are so concerned about my getting information about Pakistan from Australian sources`` -- whatever gave u that idea NB ?

and nb: ``Sorry, I`m not interested in having the whole world know about me, sweetheart.` -- definitely not yours dah ling :)

sadna: ``No it is not clarified.`` -- actually i think it is -- and what we have on that shrimati sadna jee is a difference of opinion -- hope u can deal with it :)

veeresh sahib: ``but you, of course, are from a different generation, more aggression in lieu of substance.`` -- and for you shri veeresh jee, may i dare to say `more duplicity and malevolence in place of substance` :) -- veeresh jee here`s some advice for you -- if u want to still pretend to be a friend of pakistan and pakistanis then u have to (to borrow an apt phrase from hellbound) hide the `latent` hate that u have for us and our country somehow -- because u know there`s so much of it that it comes out every now and then -- :)

nb: ``No, I don`t worry what an assistant editor in Pakistan thinks-I mean, when I don`t worry what the Albanians think.... I`ve already told you that when I live in Australia, I can`t have an idea of what Saudi TV says. I know I should be watching al-Arabiya instead, but don`t have the time for satellite TV. Well, you say I don`t get it-who`s got the prejudged mould there? Or is it all right for you to have a prejudged mould but not me?
Sorry, I`m not interested in having the whole world know about me, sweetheart. This is the way it is on internet chat rooms. What do you think I do, btw, when I`m not at the shakha(are there any in Oz)? `` -- nb dah ling i am not interested in what u think or whether u have an idea or not about saudi tv , i only said coz u mentioned it in your last post about assistant editors claiming to know what others think -- i had said or implied no such thing but i suppose this is a hallmark for most interactors on chowk -- :)

Omar, since you are so concerned about my getting information about Pakistan from Australian sources, I would like to tell you about an article in today`s SMH on Pakistani actors, subtitled from harlots to starlets. Pretty interesting. I really admire this woman called Gauhar who says she`s not Mushy`s mistress (good Muslims have mistresses?) because ``he`s a short man who wears polyester. What more can I say?`` I have no idea about her otherwise, but more power to free-thinking women like that everywhere!!

nb #153
If you are an Indian and do not agree with a Pakistan who thinks of himself/herself as liberal, you are an RSS activist. Simble definition.

#150 by veeresh

Veeresh, the rumors are right. Add Jim Morrison, John Lennon and Kurt Cobain to the list as well. All of them are very much alive in CD players of their fans, and they keep inspiring many to pick up guitars and rock. Thanks.

Omar,
No, I don`t worry what an assistant editor in Pakistan thinks-I mean, when I don`t worry what the Albanians think....
I`ve already told you that when I live in Australia, I can`t have an idea of what Saudi TV says. I know I should be watching al-Arabiya instead, but don`t have the time for satellite TV.
Well, you say I don`t get it-who`s got the prejudged mould there? Or is it all right for you to have a prejudged mould but not me?
Sorry, I`m not interested in having the whole world know about me, sweetheart. This is the way it is on internet chat rooms. What do you think I do, btw, when I`m not at the shakha(are there any in Oz)?

I must mention I greatly respect and admire Khaled Ahmed for his fearless writings on matters jihadi.

omar_r_quraishi #148
No it is not clarified.
The Zia period is long gone. However sterling the press`s role in that period, unfortunately, at that time not only a military dictator like Zia but also the might of the US fighting the Cold War had to be confronted, correct? Is that the situation now ?

Until public opinion is mobilised enough to effect a change in the emphasis on jihad in education and public life, the press`s job would not be done, assuming the press does want to effect a change.

To effect a real change in public opinion, IMO, the press will have to lead the public to discuss details about specific events in the post-Soviet, specifically Taliban period. Until that context is laid down for public discussion on jiihad, jihad supporters can win the argument solely based on abstract references to Islam, Pakistani nationalism and threat of India, and without having to answer for specific horrific consequences resulting from jihad policy.

But people in high places would prob. not like events in the post Soviet, specifically Taliban period to be discussed. So that is that.

Omar Sahib . . . I am indeed very glad to hear from you that the pop/rock scene in Pakistan is doing very well. The same fact has been brought out so well by Ahmed Bilal, but you, of course, are from a different generation, more aggression in lieu of substance.

So, Bilal, please ignore the next? Thanks, in any case . . .in fact, I have recently heard rumours that Elvis Presley, Janis Joplin and Jimi Hendrix are all alive, and currently hiding somewhere in the pleasant environs of the Sir Creek area. It is also so evident that Pakistani rock videos are top of mind requirements inside video coaches and video halls, and cinema halls are overflowing with re-runs of Woodstock and The Rose.

veeresh sahib -- so typical of you: ``I am sure Pakistanis knew how to rock, the guys I knew were up there with the best too, but that was the `80s. Those in the Valley and elsewhere, them too. But what about today?`` -- your knowledge of pakistani trucks seems to be as worse as your knowledge of the pakistani music scene these days -- obviously u havent heard of fuzon, noorie, strings, jal, aaroh, ep, haroon, fakhir, falam, hadiqa K, abrarul haq, the mekaal hasan band etc etc, the list is very long veeresh sahib and u probably didnt get to see much music during your extensive pakistani walkabouts -- besides aap kee umar ub yeh thoree hai kay aap yeh cheezain sunain -- dude stick to things u already know about pakistan -- oops that means stick to talking about delhi --

sadna -- i discredited your post for various reasons -- when u guys were called paki bashers 3-4 years ago i obviously wasnt around so dont know what that has to do with my post -- in any case, like i said (and hope uc an read sadna), the pakistani press has been takling about it (the english at least) ever since zia started his so-called islamization policies -- so what happened on chowk is irrelevant -- u asked me if the english press ever brought it up before 2004 and you were told yes it did, as far back as the early 80s when there was military censorship -- i hope this is clarified -- the agent think was a joke, taking a cue from others on chowk -- clearly u cant take jokes from pakistanis well -- as for the maulana and his followers, yes the press does know how strong his `private army` is and that is precisely why i humoured your estimate of his `army`s` strength in my post :)

nb -- dear , using moron i think is much more harmless and less distasteful than some of the language some of the paki bashers frequently use -- and how typical, bringing in where i went to study into the posts -- tch tch -- nb at least i dont hide anything about myself on my profile, why dont u do the same nb -- that way i can at least refer to your educational background too, or lack thereof :)

nb: ``. I have seen Pervez Hoodbhoy on Aussie TV(saying that Mushy had an idea about the nuclear secrets being sold-wow, there`s a surprise-what a rebel), and he once answered an email I sent him in response to an article in outlook. He`s obviously a brilliant physicist, but he doesn`t get it either.`` -- hahaha how kind of u nb -- anyone who doesnt agree with your views or doesnt fit into your prejudged mould `doesnt get it` --

i dont think i ever indicated i claim to know what they think nb but judging by what the paki bashers write on this site, even a little child can tell what kind of people they must be - of course my opinion is based on their posts -- i dont know them personally and i wonder why u thought that i said or implied that i know what anyone thinks -- your posts indicate, to me at least, that u r an RSS sympathizer -- whether you are or not isnt the point and besides u should care what a lowly assistant editor in pakistan thinks about u in any case right -- cowasjee might be pro mush because he might like him as a person but he has been quite anti military in the past -- as for pervez hoodbhoy, seeing him on AUSSIE tv isnt obviously enough -- and ayaz amir writes in dawn and is very critical of the military -- strange how all the names that were given to u were so quickly discredit, though its clear that u either never read their material or never saw them speak except a brief moment on aussie tv and cowasjee briefly on some other channel -- come on nb, u gotta do better than that --

nb: ``As I pointed out to Sadna long ago, yours is a deluded nation, so you`d stand out if you were normal.`` -- wow nb -- condemning a whole nation to the dust bin -- and u claim to be liberal and seem to be soundinglike one -- even i, apparently a big india hater (which im not at all, but rather hate the paki bashers on chowk) would never condemn a whole nation nb -- and i wouldnt want to stoop to your level and ascribe personal traits to u, since (voila!) i dont know u personally -- strange how the paki bashers seem to do that all the time on chowk --

nb:``Interesting you should mention Arundhati.`` -- actually i didnt initially at all , sadna (aka RAW agent) did -- jeez u guys have a habit of misquoting and misreading or what

nb:``The mind boggles that you are apparently the best Pakistan can do when it comes to journalism. `` -- hahahaha -- dont know where you got that from, i never said it and apparently only hellbound seems to have come to my defence -- what readers in pakistan say about what i write is a different story but i dont find them on chowk -- strange NB, very strange -- acha why dont u tell me what your profession is? and dont do a sadna on me

veeresh jee -- the pakistani rock scene is much better than india`s these days -- your movie music scene is ok but the pop bands are nowhere -- and stop with your insinuations already --

#145 by veeresh

Veeresh, one can’t underestimate any artist who is passionate about his/her work. The youngsters of 70’s also had no idea of the impact their music was to have. Some of these young artists are creating great music, so you never know how far their ambitions and talent will take them. In the meantime, enjoy their music. Thanks.

#140
From Afghanistan`s Endless War, Larry Goodson, University of Washington Press, 2001, who also refers to Ahmed Rashid`s `Taliban :Exporting Extremism `.

OK, Bilal Ahmed, I take your word for it, the Paksitani Rock scene is up and running and I do hope that this evolves as a signpost for other art forms in Pakistan too. I sincerely do.

(On another note, however, these youngsters today can never ever hope to come close to the music punched out in the `70s . . .yes?)

Having said that, I would once again go back to my original post (I`ve forgotten the number) where the issue at debate was discrimination against most Muslims by a minority of fundoo Muslims, in Pakistan.

I still think Muslims are highly discriminated against in Pakistan. That needs to be changed. Muslims should be treated equally in Pakistan.

You can`t win, sadna. you can`t be a moron so you`re a RAW agent. One or the other. Sometimes both.

#142 by veeresh

Veeresh, I am talking about today. :) Most of this new wave of Pakistani rock music revolution broke into the mainstream in early 90`s when dedicated music FM radio stations came into play, and it never stopped there. I heard now there are dedicated television music channels emerging as well. The production quality of Pakistani local rock bands is increasingly matching international standards, thanks to brilliant production abilities of people like Mekaal Hasan, who himself is an excellent guitar player. He came up with his first album late last year which was a fusion of rock/jazz and classical. Check out his website http://www.mekaalhasanband.com/. And among the veterans, seven studio albums (excluding live and “best of” albums) later, Junoon are also alive and rocking. Faraz Anwar increased his audience by releasing an album in the USA in 2001 (followed by an album in Pakistan last year). His “Abstract Point of View” was greeted with excellent reviews from US music critics. I order these new albums online from Pakistan every few weeks. You can’t deny the Pakistani rock revolution, so join the chorus. Thanks.

Ahmed Bilal/various . . . on the specific genre of classic rock guitarists in Inda, I would like to think that there is talent from the North East States, the college festival level and the few who I mentioned. But then, subsequently, the money comes from ``pop``, ``movie`` and jingles. I mean, ``Puranee Jeans aur Guitar`` was something on its own strength in India, and most people don`t even know the name of the Pakistani singer/player . . . but ask people about Daler Mehndi`s brother Mika and his guitar antics . . .

I am sure Pakistanis knew how to rock, the guys I knew were up there with the best too, but that was the `80s. Those in the Valley and elsewhere, them too. But what about today?

My comment on discrimination in Pakistan against ``Muslims who like rock music`` was based more on Pakistan as I perceive it today.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

omar_r_quraishi #134

``if u only dug into chowk a bit deeper u would have found an article published in 2000 which talked about the kind of textbooks that pakistani students had to study from in govt schools and how different were those in the private schools -- and that article came in the english language press of pakistan ``

You really do not read well. I referred to that very article in my first post to you on this thread. And clearly the Pakistani press did not do enough because whenever Indians brought up the subject of hate in textbooks on this forum in the last 3-4 years, we were abused as Paki-bashers, though we were merely being factual. It is incredible but even Jay was being factual though he did not know it.

As for calling me an agent, that has been some chowkwallahs` easy(and essentially dishonest) way out of any tight spot. And perhaps even on encountering ordinary VERIFIABLE information, they think they are getting some ``out of this world`` information or perspective, because their own press does not give it to them.


````Fazlur Rehman commands 100,000 armed fighters, he is now your leader of the opposition. 25% of Taliban`s army was composed of Pakistani jihadis.`` -- hahad dont know where u got that 100,000 figure from -- ``

From Afghanistan`s Endless War, Larry Goodson, University of Washington Press, 2001, who also refers to Ahmed Rashid`s `Taliban :Exporting Terrorism`.

He says p161
``Like the ``Arab Afghans`` who returned from the jihad of the 1980s to challenge secular regimes in the Middle East, the Pakistani Taliban wish to apply the lessons they have learned on the battlefields of Afghanistan to Pakistan. There are now estimated to be eighty thousand to one hundred thousand Pakistani Taliban, who are viewed by the JUI and similar organizations as the foot soldiers in a crusade to change Pakistan foreover``


One would think Fazlur Rahman being the leader of the opposition, how many armed fighters` support he commands is of relevance to the press, IF the press is really concerned about the jihadi content in textbooks and civil society.

veeresh

freddy is a balsara (the toothpaste kind) zubin is a mehta and rocks too

Sorry, that should be Crossword in Bombay!

Omar,
Even psychoanalysts don`t claim to know exactly what a person thinks, leave alone an assistant editor of Dawn. I know I`m not an RSS sympathiser-they lost me years ago when at an inter-religious meeting organised by my brother`s school, one of them said piously, the best job for a woman is kitchen, last word in English. I said, what, teaching? He said, no, kitchen, and the Bishop (how could he, he was a lovely man) and an imam both nodded wisely...I left. But importantly, you are entitled to think so if you want, and you will regardless of anything I say. As I pointed out to Sadna long ago, yours is a deluded nation, so you`d stand out if you were normal. The mind boggles that you are apparently the best Pakistan can do when it comes to journalism. I take back all my bad thoughts about Indian journalists.
I have heard of Ayaz Amir-he writes a column for some paper which gets published in outlook sometimes. I have seen Pervez Hoodbhoy on Aussie TV(saying that Mushy had an idea about the nuclear secrets being sold-wow, there`s a surprise-what a rebel), and he once answered an email I sent him in response to an article in outlook. He`s obviously a brilliant physicist, but he doesn`t get it either.
Interesting you should mention Arundhati. I attended the first reading of her book, and someone asked her what he brother felt about it. She got quite annoyed. Not then having read the book (this was a day after it came out) I wondered what was wrong with the questioner, but I got it as soon as I read it. Was anyone here at the Bombay Crossroads that night? Never mind, you have Sidhwa and Suleri. Cheer up.

I saw Cowasjee on tv, too, but he was saying pro-Mushy stuff, sorry, they don`t begin to comapre with Indians. But what would you know with your blinkers?

nikki if u post it once it works too ..... `womenfolk` and `menfolk` -- how quaint


kaalchakra: ``In summary, Hindu organizations try to introduce an Hindu flavor to Indian schools. But the Hindu flavor, like Islamic flavor, is not necessarily an evil influence (not secular, but not evil).`` -- kya baat kee hai aap na chakra jee -- wah wah

sadna -- i have never abused u -- calling someone `missy` or `dahling` is not abusing them -- and im not sure if ive ever called u the former -- hellbound or khamkhwa did suggest that u might be a RAW agent and i have said that you`re paki bashing takes place on a very subtle subversive (hence mor dangerous) level -- so thats my opinion -- doesnt amount to abuse does it -- something your compatriots, esp this self-proclaimed southie nikki, do with impunity -- and by the way your remark ``Fazlur Rehman commands 100,000 armed fighters, he is now your leader of the opposition. 25% of Taliban`s army was composed of Pakistani jihadis.`` -- hahad dont know where u got that 100,000 figure from --

As for your question: ``How many times has the Pakistani public been informed of this by the English press in these intervening years ? Suddenly in the year 2004, the `liberal` and `free` Pakistani press publishes a few select articles and demands to be called liberal and free. That ruse works only when people have no other sources of information.`` --

Answer: Many many times and well before 2004 or even sept 11, 2001 -- i hope your point is suitably rebutted -- if youre ever in pakistan and in khi come to the dawn library and we can show u the archives and u can see for yourself what the english press has been doing since the past 30 years or so -- u obviously dont read do u sadna -- u know nothing wrecks an argument more than basing it on wrong on unsubstantiated facts -- read some of the stuff that come in the zia days (1979-88) -- i think that qualifies as being 2004 or no sadna jee???

nikki: ``GO ON...start picking up on my country`s records to counter...the fact is, all this if it happens in india is a matter of public record..Is it the same in your country???..``
errr.... yes it is, u moron, it is :) try reading some of the pakistani press and u will see that it is


nikki: ``TO MULLAH OMAR...For the last time ...GET A LIFE...i know you love india and indians and you bemoan the fact that you were born in a screwed up country like Pakistan...i`m sure down beneath you`re actually a decent human being longing to live with other free peoples like us indians...we`re not perfect but atleast we`re free...inspite of my north indian brothers and sisters ,especially those in northwestern india who share blood and culture with your lot, causing pain to the fabric of india, we`re still a decent lot...i know you`re looking forward to visiting New Delhi again....one thing india is which your country isn`t...india is a democracy....i say no more.`` --

now in your next life u will born an ant for saying all this hahaha

#116 by omar_r_quraishi

[and no, i dont call anyone who disagrees with me an RSS sympathizer but based on the stuff some of your compatriots write and post on chowk i think any sensible person would call them that]

Does that mean you`re not one among them, i mean the sensible?

[if your not an RSS sympathizer then your not -- why does a remark from someone who doesnt know, has never met you and probably will never meet u create such a reaction?]

Anyone who`s been reading your posts of late will tell you that you`re the one who`s reacting. Your posts give it away Omar `mian`. Give up. Or keep facing the music.

#129 by veeresh

Peter Gabriel experiments with all kinds of international music. He also used vocals of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan on soundtrack of The Last Temptation of Christ. That doesn’t mean that qawwals are replacing vocalists in rock music. There are countless other examples of such fusion, but versatility of electric guitar as the main instrument in rock music remains unchallenged. I have great respect for classical musicians and traditional instruments, but I don’t think anything can replace a guitar solo in rock music. Check Joe Satriani and Steve Vai live in concert to understand what one can do with an electric guitar.

Your comment regarding acceptability of classical rock in Pakistan is not accurate so I would assume that it was due to your lack of understanding of it. It is not limited to pirated discs of International bands. We have a number of local rock bands, mostly led by some brilliant guitar players of our generation, with thousands of fans attending their concerts and buying their CD’s. Their music is mostly a fusion of classical rock and traditional musical influences. I haven’t heard anything even remotely comparable coming from India in terms of quality rock music. But I am open to reconsidering this position if you could give me pointers to some of India’s finest guitar players. Here is a no-jokes-intended list of some brilliant Pakistani guitar players:

Amir Zaki
Faraz Anwar (Mizraab)
Salman Ahmad (Junoon)
Shallum Asher Xavier (Fuzon)
Mekaal Hassan (Mekaal Hassan Band)

These are just some of the names. You can find music of these artists at any Pakistani music website on the internet or on Pakistani TV channels and radio stations. Many of them tour internationally as well. These are very much in the mainstream of Pakistani music, but you can also find music of Pakistani underground rock bands at various websites, including http://www.umrevolution.com. In terms of Pakistani music, a lot has changed in last 15 years, and unacceptability of music is not acceptable to most young Pakistanis anymore. People in general are also quite open to this change. I can personally testify to that because I used to travel from NWFP to Bahawalpur, often on public transport with long hair and a guitar in my hand. And I certainly was not the only one doing that. We know how to rock! :)

Thanks.

sadna: ``When Bidwai sticks strictly to facts or interpretations of facts then he has worth. When he goes into rhetoric or outright abuse(like he did with President Kalam) then I can`t stand him.`` -- i wish u applied this to your compatriots who interact here -- and by the way to your question

---

``How many times has the Pakistani public been informed of this by the English press in these intervening years ? Suddenly in the year 2004, the `liberal` and `free` Pakistani press publishes a few select articles and demands to be called liberal and free. That ruse works only when people have no other sources of information.-- if u only dug into chowk a bit deeper u would have found an article published in 2000 which talked about the kind of textbooks that pakistani students had to study from in govt schools and how different were those in the private schools -- and that article came in the english language press of pakistan -- it would help if you tried to look beyond your biases sadna -- :)

#129 by veeresh

As a follow-up, I got a website (www.gigapad.com) of Indian underground rock bands from Nikki7777. Any other pointers are also most welcome. Rock artists of all countries, unite! :) Thanks.

Ahmed Bilal/126 . . . on guitar players from India . . .

a) Freddie Mercury of QUEEN. (Firdus Mehta?)
b) Remo Fernandes.
c) Pandit Vishwa Mohan Bhatt.
d) Ehsaan Noorani & Loy Mendonsa with Shankar Mahadevan.
e) Narayana Iyengar (chitraveena, triple guitar)
f) There is this one guy from Karnal, I forget his name, who plays with Madonna as well as part of a group my son keeps listening to, I forget the name.
g) Jimi Hendrix, ofcourse, is another famous South Indian.

However, jokes apart, I would also suggest you try to get hold of some of Shiv Kumar Sharma`s santoor music, beats guitar anyday. I am reliably informed that Nick Nolte as well as Peter Gabriel are both trying to incorporate the santoor as an alternative to the basic steel/electric guitar.

I agree that many young people would rather listen to music . . . but Ahmed, in all of Islamabad & Rawalpindi put together there is only one small shop which even attempts to repair traditional musical instruments. My comment on ``Muslims who like music not being acceptable in Pakistan`` stems from that, not from the cheap availability of pirated discs.

I can understand one, maybe two, generations post Independence concentrating more on survival, having been through that in India myself. But now it is time to get along, no?

+++

(Nikki7777 to please excuse us, your generalisations on Punjabis don`t really impact my mixed North/South/West genes and world citizen family background, but all you display is a lack of understanding when you try to substitute content and knolwedge with hot air and bluster)

+++

No, Omar & hellhound, I am not patronising. I have as much of a right to an opinion on Pakistan as anybody else who hailed from that part of the world.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#111 by veeresh

[These Muslims are not acceptable to Pakistanis]

This is too much of a misinformed generalization. There are plenty of Pakistani fans of classic rock, and many of them would gladly walk into a concert on their way out of a mosque. Probably you are not aware of the growing rock music scene of Pakistan, which has its own distinct sound now with fusion of rock and local music. Junoon’s sufi rock is a good example of that. I can try to find Salman Ahmad’s documentary “Rock Star and the Mullahs” for you on this conflict if you are interested. I would appreciate if anyone could give me pointers to Indian guitar-players. Thanks.

I am no fan of MM Joshi and according to me, he was one of the most shady of all the previous Cabinet.

However, speaking of Arabic, Urdu and Murli Manohar Joshi, just to point out that nothing is ever simple in India:

June 2001
Rs 8 Crore for Urdu Bureau
New Delhi: The Central Government has allocated Rs 8 crore for the National Bureau for Promotion of Urdu this year. In a letter to the Bureau Director Mohammed Hameedullah Bhatt, Union HRD Minister Prof. Murli Manohar Joshi said the allocation has been increased in view of the need to link promotion of Urdu with information technology (IT) Mission.

December 2001
The Union government has started implementing an ambitious plan to modernize and computerize Madrassas in the right earnest. It is also in the process of recruiting science teachers and funding their computerization programmes. Minister for human resources development M M Joshi recently sanctioned 800 science teachers for Madrassas apart from a number of computers. He also appealed to the Muslim philanthropic bodies to encourage madrassas to adopt the mainstream education system along with their theological training. The HRD Ministry report says that the government is spending Rs 12 crore annually on Madrassas compared to Rs. 2 crore every year earlier. It also noted that the remuneration for teachers in Madrassas has also been doubled to Rs. 3000. The budget of the National Bureau for Promotion of Urdu Language has been substantially raised from Rs 5.5 crore to Rs 8 crore this year in order to encourage IT education among the minorities.

So far, 100 computer centres have been set up in the 67 districts in 22 states in which 7000 students are being trained in computer application annually. One part of this weaning exercise has to focus on language, considering that Urdu and Arabic literature form the core of the studies in most madrassas. Joshi also confirmed that the government also provides them with more funds for translating books in Urdu and all NCERT books will now be available to the madrassas in Urdu.



June 2004
http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEP20040615124938&Page=P&Title=States&Topic=0&

Spoken Arabic course becomes big hit in Bihar

PATNA: Spoken Arabic is giving spoken English tough challenge as the most-sought-after course in Bihar, thanks to youths taking their job hunt to the Gulf.

The government-run `madrassas`, or religious schools of Islam, that started spoken Arabic courses with assistance from central human resources development ministry are doing booming business, sources say.

sadna # 122

``outright abuse(like he did with President Kalam) then I can`t stand him``

There is a guy called Ram something whose opinions appear on the Daily Times. He recently called Bajpai Hitler. This guy is from The Hindu.

Can we blame the Pakistanis if they believe that innocent Muslims are being all gassed in India? All they need, and greatly relish, is a little further goading from FV types to complete their picture of India. :)

re: OmarRQureshi # 116

The following are your specifics on the saffronization of Indian education. Clearly these are departures from the aggressively secular model India has pursued since the days of Nehru. But consider whether these come anywhere near what, according to your own research, is taught in Pakistani government schools.


1. ``The BJP and its allies have also called for the ``Hinduization`` of education in India. .... Their plan`s more controversial points included compulsory courses on ``Indian values`` from preschool to graduate school, the inclusion of Hindu religious texts into all syllabi, and teacher training in Indian values and culture at all levels. ``


Not in the best traditions of secularism but equivalent to including Quranic teachings in Muslim countries. Quranic teachings can be included without inculcating hatred (I gathered this is what you were suggesting in your article in the Dawn), and so is the case with Hindu religious texts. Hard to argue that teaching `Indian values` means turning schools into factories of hatred. More like the demand from the Christian right to include ``Christian values`` in Western education.



2. ``The proposal......was ultimately withdrawn after vociferous objections from several state education ministers.``

Says something about the nature of opposition in India to introducing even ``Indian values` and including (excerpts from) Hindu religious texts.


3. ``As of February 1999, Vidya Bharati had already set up 14,000 primary and secondary schools and dozens of colleges with a total of 1.8 million students, and sought to expand its networks in areas where Christian missionary activity was particularly strong.``

If Christian missionary activity is particularly strong, Hindu missionary activity has strong right to be active as well. So unless someone sees Hinduism itself as an evil for which Christianity is the cure, it is difficult to see the point here.


4. ``RSS also planned to set up a series of Sanskrit-language colleges in an attempt to make the ancient language the common language of all Indians.``


This is a clear misstatement. RSS plans for widespread understanding of Sanskrit language, not to make it the common language of all Indians. Consider that the teaching of Arabic language in a Pakistani school does not automatically make the school worthy of opposition from liberally-minded political people.

5. ``Vidya Bharati textbooks defend the 1992 destruction of the Babri Masjid by presenting archaeological evidence to suggest that the mosque was built atop the ruins of a Hindu temple which marked the birthplace of the Hindu god Ram.``

This is one charge that liberally-minded political people can genuinely bring against Vidya Bharti schools. But that is from a secular perspective. Vidya Bharti schools are not secular schools, not government schools. They are run by a religious organization. They present the Hindu point of view.


6. ``Despite the forced withdrawal of the controversial Vidya Bharati proposal, the BJP-led Uttar Pradesh government followed suit soon after the national conference to make compulsory the singing of Saraswati Vandana (a Hindu prayer to the goddess Saraswati) and Vande Mataram (a patriotic song) by students in its schools.``


This may be wrong or may not be, depending upon whether a private school run by a religious organization can make its religious prayers compulsory. Can a privately funded Pakistani Madrassa that does not preach hatred make Islamic prayers compulsory for its students without the fear of strong liberal opposition? I don`t know Pakistan well enough, but do you have the answer to that question?


7. ``The Uttar Pradesh minister of state for primary education has reportedly been using an RSS model to train education department officers, principals and heads of educational institutions. The learning of the Sanskrit language has also been made mandatory for classes III to VIII. ``Saraswati Vandana made mandatory in Uttar Pradesh schools,`` The Hindu, October 31, 1998.``

The Hindu (ironically) has a stridently `secular` point of view. It doesn`t say much about what it means by `an RSS model.` It probably wants us to construct an ominous image, but doesnt give any more details. Should learning of Sankrit language be compulsory? Not in my opinion. But is that equivalent to the issues of hate you yourself identified in Pakistani text books?

In summary, Hindu organizations try to introduce an Hindu flavor to Indian schools. But the Hindu flavor, like Islamic flavor, is not necessarily an evil influence (not secular, but not evil). Religious hate-mongering is what we should be opposing in India and in Pakistan.

nb #114
I remember reading Pakistani versions of the same `failed state, failed state` breast-beating rhetoric a number of times. I don`t remember the names, though.

When Bidwai sticks strictly to facts or interpretations of facts then he has worth. When he goes into rhetoric or outright abuse(like he did with President Kalam) then I can`t stand him.

Correction on number quote:

In 2001, Ahmed Rashid said ``Quite separately during the past seven years, between 50-60,000 young Pakistani militants have gone to fight in Afghanistan. Many have died there never to return, many have participated in the worst ethnic and sectarian massacres that have taken place in Afghanistan`s history.``

omar_r_quraishi #116
You need to improve your comprehension. If you were less interested in abusing me, you might actually take the trouble to read what I write.

Nowhere did I deny MM Joshi`s and co`s intention or success in `saffronizing`. In fact I clearly stated in multiple posts on this thread that a tussle is going on between two extreme views of Indian history the Hindutva on one side and Leftists on another.

What I WAS challenging was your characterisation of a specific quote about certain medieval invaders as an ideological statement.

MM Joshi lost his election. It was INDIANS including Hindus who voted MM Joshi out. Did you even know that?

He was in his job earlier because he and his party were voted into power. A minister has the full constitutional rights to make policy and make speeches about it, whether we hate that policy or not. Next time if his party comes back to power, if he gets his old job, he will make the same speeches about the same policy. That is how democracy works, live with it. The only way to defeat his ideas is by debate. Live with that.

btw, certain Pakistanis have been protesting textbook content SINCE 1986. That is 18 YEARS worth of protest. Where have you and rest of `liberal` Pakistani press been for 18 years?

80,000 Pakistanis fought in 20 years of the Afghan war according to Ahmed Rashid. Fazlur Rehman commands 100,000 armed fighters, he is now your leader of the opposition. 25% of Taliban`s army was composed of Pakistani jihadis.

How many times has the Pakistani public been informed of this by the English press in these intervening years ? Suddenly in the year 2004, the `liberal` and `free` Pakistani press publishes a few select articles and demands to be called liberal and free. That ruse works only when people have no other sources of information.

Speaking of which, I suggest you look up some of many books which mention the massacres of Mazar-i-Sharif in 1997-1998, where thousands of Pakistani jihadis (and allegedly members of the Pakistani military) fought alongside the Taliban. The subsequent fall outs of that conflict will become more understandable.

Omar Sahib/116, we are now beginning to sound like a Punch & Judy show, but any way. (By the way, do you know an Asif from Karachi, a businessman, who is complaining about his wife keeping wickets for an unknown Pakistani cricketer? Never mind . . .)

a) Within sarkari India, I have a Constitution, which does not differentiate on the basis of religion. I do not have to state my religion on passport forms, for example. So within that Government context, sorry, I can not define ``Hindu``, or any other religion for that matter.

b) Within private sector India, it does not matter. For example, I happen to have three ``Amins`` in my company, one each a Muslim, Hindu and (surprise?) Sikh. Here again, religion does not need to be defined.

c) Within religious India, it varies. Some, very few, temples and mosques, are very strict on who goes in. Others impose a dress code and no big deal. Yet others have no problem at all. So, here again, on an empirical basis, I would say that for almost 99% of religious places, your religion or its definition is not relevant. There will always be the exception, which you will surely ferret out, now that the local thanedaar has had you running, preventing you from going out whenever the crackers go off.

d) Within urbane India, it has simply stopped mattering to a large extent now. I would be hard pressed to find a definition.

e) Within rural India, the definitions vary wildly geographically. However, the chances of Hindus using their majority position to exclude others solely on the basis of religion would be rather the exception. Simply not commercially viable in any agrarian society, but then, would you know about these things?

+++

nb/117, thanks. I increasingly write under pseudonyms now, except at The Chowk and Outlook. See, Pakistan`s definition of what or who is a compleat Muslim is a touchy subject, better to let a Pakistani inter-actor explain it here. To the best of my knolwedge, Pakistani women courtesy Hudood are not allowed to be complete Muslims, so that`s about 50% removed. Then, Ahmeddiyas and certain other sects have it really bad in Pakistan, and are not considered Muslims either. It goes on . . .

+++

How, Omar Sahib, did I come to the conclusion that all Muslims in Pakistan are not equal in the eyes of the Pakistani State?

OK, here is a deal:- if I tell you, will you for once not abuse me in return, but just counter my information if it is incorrect? So, here we go again, and please note, this is in context with the State . . . not anecdotal or exceptions:-

1) Pakistani women are subject to the Hudood Laws.
2) Pakistani Muslims in Jhung, where my fore-fathers hail from, are terribly discriminated against even today.
3) Pakistan`s position on Bengali Muslims was spelt out in 1971.
4) Pakistan`s position on Ahmeddiyas in particular, and other sects which I shall name if you so desire, is getting increasingly discriminatory.
5) Pakistan`s position on Muslims vis-a-vis language (Urdu) discriminates terribly against non-Urdu speaking Pakistani Muslims.

+++

For now, that`s all. I have to prepare for a drive to Srinagar, and wish to get my camera ready. I aim to try to take photographs for The Chowk.

Veeresh,
First of all, I want to tell you that when I lived in India, my little brother always showed me your articles in that auto magazine-Indian Auto? Auto India? so it is quite exciting for me to actually be `talking` to you like this. :)
I also wanted to ask you to not ever write`drivel` as Omar suggested, because he`s got a copyright on drivel. Now that I`ve got my cheap thrills...
I don`t know that the Indians I used to hang out with could possibly be called not Muslim enough, but I doubt they need anyone`s stamp of approval anyway. What I`m trying to point out is that someone as fundamentalist as Omar obviously thinks of himself as being an intrepid liberal journalist and expects me(and everyone else, I`m not the narcissistic one) to be shamed by what Romila Thapar says.
Queen Latifa is gorgeous, I`d ask her!

The current weekly Encounter section in dawn has a hilarious article on the topic of textbooks and the SDPI report:

Politics of textbooks by Ali Usman Qasmi

Note that the link is volatile; the article will disappear in a couple of days.

Here is one of the more risible sections. The author believes that Pakistan cannot correct the ideological indoctrination in its textbooks because the textbooks in India are allegedly also ideologically biased (because, in the author’s view, they show scant respect for Pakistani concerns and Pakistan’s designated heroes). Truly pathetic yet utterly predictable.

“The report under review puts a great emphasis on the ideological indoctrination by using history as a tool. This allegation needs to be reviewed in three different dimensions.

Will it be possible for Pakistan to change the content of its history textbooks when distorted version of history is taught across the border as well? Many would nod their heads in approval.

What is wrong is wrong even if it is practised by others, they would say. The answer is not so simple. Even before the Hindu right wingers started tampering with the history textbooks, the so called liberals were not producing authentic versions of history either.

I have browsed through one such textbook that had Bipan Chandra as one of the co-authors and was surprised to see the indifference shown to the question of Muslim rights and identity, as if they did not exist as real issues in the freedom movement. Jinnah did not receive any respectful words except for being epithetized as Barrister Jinnah.

India`s actions and policies toward princely states were found to be perfectly justified. This behaviour from across the borders binds us in a fix as we cannot remain oblivious of these developments.

Both Mahmud Ghaznavi and Shiva Jee have to be robbed off their noble status. It would be inappropriate on our part to declare Ghaznvi or Ghauri as villains while our Indian counterparts continue to idolize Prithvi Raj and Shivajee.”

(Italics mine).

veeresh jee plz define `hindu` for us pakistanis here --
could u plz

sadna:``Teaching children whole Quranic suras exhorting armed aggression against unbelievers, devoid of any historical context whatsoever, can never equal the fascism inherent in a Hindu saying Hindus and Hinduism were not all bad. That is the framework this guy talks from. The Hindutva-Left ideological tussle on one hand and the real need to find the best rationalization of different Hindu-Muslim historical viewpoints for a composite society, escape him entirely.`` -- sadna your memory is extremely selective, or u have a pea for a brain -- `this guy` (moi) is the one who wrote this article in the first place and submitted it to chowk knowing that paki-bashers, found in the multitudes on the website, would revel in it -- im not sure about the rationalization baloney u talk about escaping me but what surely doesnt escape anyone who reads your post is your attempt to obfuscate the issue of saffronization by semantics -- the `real need` surely was not met by mr joshi and his party`s plans and what they did for education --

sadna and nb are ignoramuses for thinking that pakistan has no one like praful bidwai -- his name is ayaz amir and there r others who openly question pakistani state policy like dr pervez hoodbhoy, hamza alavi (now dead), eqbal ahmed (also dead), mushtaq gazdar (film-maker), ardeshir cowasjee, anwar syed, najam sethi (when he wants to), kamran shafi (the news, on a lesser note, but very critical), masood hasan (also the news), khalid hasan (the daily times and very very critical), ejaz haider (the friday times), abbas rashid (daily times), rehana hakim (editor newsline), tahir mirza (my editor), aamer ahmed khan (editor herald), kamal siddiqi, zobeida mustafa (both my colleagues at dawn) and the list goes on and on -- obviously paki-hating ignoramuses like u wouldnt be expected to know any better --
as for arundhiti roy, as a writer we prob dont have anyone and this doesnt mean taht we r jealous since she has quiet a huge fan following here --


veeresh jee :``please appreciate, for the likes of many Pakistanis especially those in the Pakistani English media, the Muslims we hang out with in India are often not Muslim enough for them.`` -- acha .. wonder how u came to that conclusion??? seriously something is wrong somewhere hain

nb: ``Before you even ask, Omar, I think of myself as slightly liberal because I am a non-post-modern feminist, I believe in gay marriage-and attend commitment ceremonies, and unfortunately for your Rss sympathiser opinions, I have spent much of my life hanging out with Muslims.`` -- yawn... im not asking anything nb neither do i wish to explain how many indians i have or have not befriended -- funny by the way that u should go on the defensive suddenly -- quite atypical of u lot :)


nb again: ``I find it highly interesting that you seem to think of yourself as left-wing. What do you do that qualifies you as left-wing? Wow-you pay your taxes. Of course, you won`t explain-you will pronounce and disappear, but it would make you seem less of a hypocrite.`` -- i never said i was left wing right wing or centre nb --

nb again: ``I wish I could be an RSS sympathiser, life would be more cut and dry, but I can`t, it`s not, life is in shades of grey. It would be easier for you too, if you could just call all Indians who don`t agree with you RSS sympathisers.`` -- oh but u certainly come across as an RSS sympathizer and probably are and dont even know it nb -- and no, i dont call anyone who disagrees with me an RSS sympathizer but based on the stuff some of your compatriots write and post on chowk i think any sensible person would call them that -- i dont see what the problem here is -- most of u call people like tahmed a rightwing religious extremist -- so, someone is now calling u a rightwing anti-minority RSS/VHP/Bajrang Dal supporter and u guys get so riled -- learn to take it both ways -- some of your compatriots quite mistakenly address me as mullah or mian -- the first can be ignored but the second is said in a derogatory sense -- the best option is to begin using shri and pundit with them -- whats teh big deal nb -- if your not an RSS sympathizer then your not -- why does a remark from someone who doesnt know, has never met you and probably will never meet u create such a reaction?


sadna: you should win an award for slander by the way ``Omar might or might not be leftist, but I suspect he belongs to the vast liberal majority of our neighbours who think that killing Hindus has always been the liberal thing to do throughout history, because Hindu = fascist by definition.`` -- i dont hold such views dear -- not hindu but if you`re indian and also a regular interactor on chowk then chances r pretty high that u hate pakistanis of all shades --

``Hence Hindus are supposed to be seen not heard. Even a public speech by a government minister causes hai-tauba among these liberals, baath yahaan tak aa gayi. Then horror of horrors, they appoint their own people to various posts and worst of all express their opinions. `` ???? no idea what you`re talking about -- if you`re talking about the murli manohar joshi reference then u would have to discuss this with mr jang who insisted on specifics of saffronization of education in india and by the way since we r on that here are the specifics:
From a report by Humar Rights Watch:

``The BJP and its allies have also called for the ``Hinduization`` of education in India. As one of his first acts after taking office, the BJP minister of education, Murli Manohar Joshi, appointed scholars sympathetic to the Hindutva cause to national academic bodies.56 At a national education conference in October 1998, Joshi introduced a proposal to ``Hinduize`` the school system. The plan`s more controversial points included compulsory courses on ``Indian values`` from preschool to graduate school, the inclusion of Hindu religious texts into all syllabi, and teacher training in Indian values and culture at all levels. The proposal, drawn up by a group called Vidya Bharati, which functions as the education section of the RSS, was ultimately withdrawn after vociferous objections from several state education ministers.57 The Minister of Education for West Bengal stated, ``The BJP is attempting to destroy the basic secular fabric of [the] country because they don`t believe in secularism.``58

56: Marion Lloyd, ``Hindu Nationalists Campaign to Remake Education in India,`` The Chronicle of Higher Education, February 19, 1999.

57: Ibid.


58: As of February 1999, Vidya Bharati had already set up 14,000 primary and secondary schools and dozens of colleges with a total of 1.8 million students, and sought to expand its networks in areas where Christian missionary activity was particularly strong. RSS also planned to set up a series of Sanskrit-language colleges in an attempt to make the ancient language the common language of all Indians. Vidya Bharati textbooks defend the 1992 destruction of the Babri Masjid by presenting archaeological evidence to suggest that the mosque was built atop the ruins of a Hindu temple which marked the birthplace of the Hindu god Ram. Despite the forced withdrawal of the controversial Vidya Bharati proposal, the BJP-led Uttar Pradesh government followed suit soon after the national conference to make compulsory the singing of Saraswati Vandana (a Hindu prayer to the goddess Saraswati) and Vande Mataram (a patriotic song) by students in its schools. The Uttar Pradesh minister of state for primary education has reportedly been using an RSS model to train education department officers, principals and heads of educational institutions. The learning of the Sanskrit language has also been made mandatory for classes III to VIII. ``Saraswati Vandana made mandatory in Uttar Pradesh schools,`` The Hindu, October 31, 1998.

sadna - no offence but u sound quite like a manic depressive yourself :) -- it ake it your not a bleeding heart liberal, or r u ??

Sadna,
but who is the Pakistani equivalent of Bidwai?

stuka#110
``Police, assisted by security forces, have launched a hunt to nab the militants who fled the scene taking advantage of the chaos which followed the blast, the sources said.``

Why are the ``encounter specialists`` missing when you need them? What good are the patrol parties?

nb #109
``There are no Pakistani equivalents of Praful Bidwai or Arundhati.``

IMO, there are, some of whom as chronically depressed as Bidwai.

nb/109 . . . please appreciate, for the likes of many Pakistanis especially those in the Pakistani English media, the Muslims we hang out with in India are often not Muslim enough for them. This fundamental flaw in reasoning seems to nullify any attempt to explain to some of them that odds on chances are that 1 out of 7 of my friends in India shall be Muslims, and this will include Muslim women, short and dark Muslims, Muslims who do not know a word of Urdu, Muslims who like classic rock and speak English, Muslims who marry non-Muslims, vegetarian Muslims, and a variety of sects of Muslims many of whom are not fundoos by any stretch of imagination. These Muslims are not acceptable to Pakistanis, which is fine by us Indians if they keep that logic to themselves.

Trouble arises when they try to dictate to us in India who is Muslim or not based on their outlook.

Likewise, a certin percentage of people in India will be fundoo, and chances are here that one in seven will be Muslim, too.

For years on chowk I have not been able to get any Pakistani inter-actor to define Muslim for me. I think I shall ask Chaka Khan and Queen Latifa and Cat Stevens too?

Seven children among 10 killed in J&K blast

PTI[ TUESDAY, JUNE 15, 2004 03:46:25 PM ]

SRINAGAR : Ten persons including seven school children were injured in a grenade attack by militants in Anantnag district of Jammu and Kashmir on Tuesday morning, official sources said.




The grenade was lobbed by militants around 10 am at a patrol party of Rashtriya Rifles at village Frisal in Kulgam, but it missed the intended target and exploded on the roadside the sources said.



The children, all in the age group of 8-10 years, were on their way to their school when they were hit by splinters, the sources said adding one of the seriously injured had been shifted to Srinagar for special treatment.



No militant outfit has so far claimed responsibility for the grenade attack.



Police, assisted by security forces, have launched a hunt to nab the militants who fled the scene taking advantage of the chaos which followed the blast, the sources said.

There are no Pakistani equivalents of Praful Bidwai or Arundhati. Omar thinks of himself as a liberal, yet his equivalent among the Indians wouldn`t be dost-mittar or you or me, but someone like gujjubania, who makes no claims to being liberal.To be an Indian liberal, you cannot be a ``practising``- whatever that means-hindu, and you must deny that your ancestors from before the 12th century had any widom whatsoever; that all good things came from areas west of India. No wonder the RSS grows...
Before you even ask, Omar, I think of myself as slightly liberal because I am a non-post-modern feminist, I believe in gay marriage-and attend commitment ceremonies, and unfortunately for your Rss sympathiser opinions, I have spent much of my life hanging out with Muslims.

nb #107
After BJP lost power, J S Rajput has in any way lost his job as NCERT head and his tenure ends on July 15.

Omar might or might not be leftist, but I suspect he belongs to the vast liberal majority of our neighbours who think that killing Hindus has always been the liberal thing to do throughout history, because Hindu = fascist by definition.

Hence Hindus are supposed to be seen not heard. Even a public speech by a government minister causes hai-tauba among these liberals, baath yahaan tak aa gayi. Then horror of horrors, they appoint their own people to various posts and worst of all express their opinions.

Teaching children whole Quranic suras exhorting armed aggression against unbelievers, devoid of any historical context whatsoever, can never equal the fascism inherent in a Hindu saying Hindus and Hinduism were not all bad.

That is the framework this guy talks from. The Hindutva-Left ideological tussle on one hand and the real need to find the best rationalization of different Hindu-Muslim historical viewpoints for a composite society, escape him entirely.

Omar, you pointed out that article as an example of saffronisation. Just saying that because you told Sadna that all you were saying was that some people disagreed. It wasn`t.Of course they did disagree, people disagree with the time in India if they can.
I find it highly interesting that you seem to think of yourself as left-wing. What do you do that qualifies you as left-wing? Wow-you pay your taxes. Of course, you won`t explain-you will pronounce and disappear, but it would make you seem less of a hypocrite.

Well, omar, you still didn`t explain what is wrong with that. I still see nothing wrong with that.I wish I could be an RSS sympathiser, life would be more cut and dry, but I can`t, it`s not, life is in shades of grey. It would be easier for you too, if you could just call all Indians who don`t agree with you RSS sympathisers.Unfortunately, you won`t explain why you said that, because you don`t have to, you can say anything you like and go away.
This is completely bizarre, but obviously it is just you,not all Pakis(that may be a term of abuse in England, but because I`m unfortunately from the same ethnic group, I can use that),talking at people rather than with. You`re obviously not used to explaining yourself or taking responsibility for yourself. Poor little rich kid.

stuka -- ill say it again -- i didnt ask u for your ideological beliefs did i -- sadna, ralphie boy, arjun jee, and jang -- bad retreat guys

sadna: ``And you forgot to point out one indigenous hero or role model celebrated in Pakistan`` -- ever heard of heer or mahiwal sadna -- or jinnah or iqbal -- i suppose uw ouldnt have --
sadna again: ``You mean to say Indian Muslims WANT to be held responsible for the past crimes of foreign brigands? `` -- no (exasperated totally now) i am not saying that.. ufff -- cant u read sadna -- i am saying that this interpretation is debatable and that some people in india might disagree with u -- dont know how u got that inference --

jang -- i gave u stuff from the indian press and sources -- i think that should be more credible than what a pakistani journalist would have to say on the issue -- dont u think so?

jang again: ``Thanks again, but I was hoping for something original, considering you are a journalist, and perhaps have access to some material not accessible or already known to us.`` -- actually jang no need for that, because the saffronization policies of the previous govt were in the public realm -- were frequently debated in mainstream indian newspapers and u want proof ????


sadna again: ``As you repeatedly say, you don`t come here to debate, you come here to tell us off. Well, you will henceforth do it on your own time, not mine.`` -- sadna do u have a habit of making up things -- i never said i dont come here for debate but that i dont need to explain myself to people -- debate is not about asking launching attacks on a person`s race, nation or whatever and then expecting him to respond -- and yes i would rather indulge in debate with people who can be reasonably civil and most importantly tolerant of other peoples views -- that im afraid is quite missing with most (not all) of the indian interactors here -- as for my time, your time, sadna, i will be all the more happier if u dont respond to me -- i am not asking u or forcing u to come on chowk , or am i?

The News, Karachi, Pakistan
Saturday February 01, 2003-- Ziqa`ad 28 1423 A.H.

Coping with the enemy
by Mir Jamilur Rahman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

..... President Muhammad Khatami of Iran, who has just concluded a state visit to India, told a gathering in New Delhi that Mahmood Ghaznavi was a marauder who plundered and destroyed Somnath. He added that Mahmood Ghaznavi did not represent Islamic values; he was a military invader and his 17 assaults on India have no relation with Islam or Islamic principles. In fact, the President of Iran said, rulers like Mahmood Ghaznavi have brought bad name to Islam.

Could a Pakistani ever consider Mahmood Ghaznavi a marauder? In their eyes he is a ghazi and hero who smashed the idols. In the eyes of Hindus he is a barbarian who destroyed and looted their temples. And President Khatami has agreed with the Hindus. Does it make him our enemy?

---

http://www.dawn.com/2003/09/12/letted.htm#5

DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
12 September 2003 Friday 14 Rajab 1424

Who was Abdali?
by GHULAM KIBRIA, Karachi

The ongoing debate on Abdali (Encounter, Aug 30) brought back to my memory an old Punjabi saying, Khada peetalahe dabaqi Ahmad Shahe da. It was heard in my younger days in Lahore. Being curious to know its background and significance I turned to an elderly person. He explained that this saying refers to Ahmad Shah Abdali`s annual looting spree in Lahore when he would take away everything his army - actually was a gang of looters - could lay their hands upon.

This saying emphasizes the need for spending all one earned during the year and the virtue of not saving anything. For whatever saved would be taken away by Ahmad Shah Abdali.

Lahore was an overwhelmingly Muslim city. Whether Abdali was a ghazi and mujahid or a lotaira is for Islam lovers, academicians and historians to debate, this saying only emphasizes the ground reality.

---

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_10-10-2003_pg3_7

Daily Times
Friday, October 10, 2003

Can Musharraf be like Ghaznavi?
By Khaled Ahmed

For us the great Muslim conquerors of history are a constant inspiration. Reverence to them became a part of the process of nation-building in Pakistan after 1947, especially if these conquerors were not favoured by India. If the Indians liked Akbar, we had to condemn him for deviating from true Islam, even though there would be some aspects of his rule worth emulating for us today to nurture a civil society at peace with itself. If the Indians disliked someone, we had to admire him. That`s what happened in the case of Ghaznavi who invaded India a number of times and laid its places of worship waste in the name of Islam. Ironically, the BJP is paying back for what he did. Because the Indians hated Aurangzeb for imposing ``jazia`` on them, we had to admire him although he was cruel to his brothers and persecuted the mystics we otherwise cherish.

Columnist Javed Chaudhry wrote in ``Jang`` (24 September 2003) that when the Afghan king Mahmud Ghaznavi wanted to invade India his commander advised him to first take care of trouble in the north of Afghanistan. Another courtier told him that as a king he was not to ``ask`` a commander whether he should invade India. He should just give an order and leave it to the commander to carry it out. The column said that General Musharraf instead of giving orders to build Kalabagh Dam was waiting for a consensus in the provinces.

While it is true that strategic decisions have to be taken in Pakistan sometimes without popular approval, it would be improper to refer to Mahmud Ghaznavi as an example to induce General Musharraf to take the decision on the Kalabagh Dam in the teeth of the opposition he faces in three provinces. Anything built in the name of Ghaznavi would not be right for Pakistan simply because his medieval rule was completely out of kilter with the requirements of governance today.

We sometimes wrongly refer to the Justice of Emperor Jehangir (Adl-e-Jehangir) as a model for our justice system today, which is most embarrassing. Jehangir had a bell outside his palace where citizens would shout their petitions for him to decide. The one decision he famously made about his own queen was a most shabby miscarriage of justice. It was also a blatant violation of the separation of the judiciary in today`s terms. Ghaznavi as a medieval marauder is not a good reference to present to a ruler of today. It simply shows a kind of residual primitiveness in us. General Musharraf may be a military ruler but we cannot ask him to become savage like Ghaznavi who after all didn`t do the horrible thing to his own people. .....

---

BBC News
Wednesday, 29 May, 2002, 13:43 GMT 14:43 UK

Pakistan`s missile symbolism
By Zaffar Abbas
BBC correspondent in Islamabad

..... Pakistan relates the present conflict in South Asia to the conflicts of the mediaeval period when Muslim warriors from Afghanistan frequently invaded India.

Ghauri, Ghaznavi, Abdali - these are the three ballistic missiles Pakistan test-fired in the last week.

But these are also names of three prominent Muslim warlords, or conquerors, who invaded India from Afghanistan between the 11th and 18th centuries in an attempt to expand their empires. .....

..... Muhammad Ghauri was a powerful Afghan warlord who in the 12th century had two fierce battles with the Hindu ruler of northern India, Prithviraj Chouhan. .....

..... The other two missiles Pakistan tested during the week are also named after 11th and 18th-century Afghan conquerors, Mehmood Ghaznavi and Ahmed Shah Abdali.

Ghaznavi is described in history books as a temple-destroyer who attacked India 17 times.

Pakistan has never given any specific reason for naming these missiles after such historical figures.

But the symbolism is a clear reflection of the official mindset in the country.

It shows that for Islamabad, the present conflict with India is a continuation of the battles of the past between people described in Pakistani history books as just Muslim invaders and several of India`s cruel Hindu emperors.

``oh plz , plz stop assuming things about people u dont know -- that is ``rank`` foolishness -- ``

Omar:

So you are a communist?? Deft way of avoiding the issue.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

omar_r_quraishi #97