Textbook Questions

I saw Cowasjee on tv, too, but he was saying pro-Mushy stuff, sorry, they don`t begin to comapre with Indians. But what would you know with your blinkers?

nikki if u post it once it works too ..... `womenfolk` and `menfolk` -- how quaint


kaalchakra: ``In summary, Hindu organizations try to introduce an Hindu flavor to Indian schools. But the Hindu flavor, like Islamic flavor, is not necessarily an evil influence (not secular, but not evil).`` -- kya baat kee hai aap na chakra jee -- wah wah

sadna -- i have never abused u -- calling someone `missy` or `dahling` is not abusing them -- and im not sure if ive ever called u the former -- hellbound or khamkhwa did suggest that u might be a RAW agent and i have said that you`re paki bashing takes place on a very subtle subversive (hence mor dangerous) level -- so thats my opinion -- doesnt amount to abuse does it -- something your compatriots, esp this self-proclaimed southie nikki, do with impunity -- and by the way your remark ``Fazlur Rehman commands 100,000 armed fighters, he is now your leader of the opposition. 25% of Taliban`s army was composed of Pakistani jihadis.`` -- hahad dont know where u got that 100,000 figure from --

As for your question: ``How many times has the Pakistani public been informed of this by the English press in these intervening years ? Suddenly in the year 2004, the `liberal` and `free` Pakistani press publishes a few select articles and demands to be called liberal and free. That ruse works only when people have no other sources of information.`` --

Answer: Many many times and well before 2004 or even sept 11, 2001 -- i hope your point is suitably rebutted -- if youre ever in pakistan and in khi come to the dawn library and we can show u the archives and u can see for yourself what the english press has been doing since the past 30 years or so -- u obviously dont read do u sadna -- u know nothing wrecks an argument more than basing it on wrong on unsubstantiated facts -- read some of the stuff that come in the zia days (1979-88) -- i think that qualifies as being 2004 or no sadna jee???

nikki: ``GO ON...start picking up on my country`s records to counter...the fact is, all this if it happens in india is a matter of public record..Is it the same in your country???..``
errr.... yes it is, u moron, it is :) try reading some of the pakistani press and u will see that it is


nikki: ``TO MULLAH OMAR...For the last time ...GET A LIFE...i know you love india and indians and you bemoan the fact that you were born in a screwed up country like Pakistan...i`m sure down beneath you`re actually a decent human being longing to live with other free peoples like us indians...we`re not perfect but atleast we`re free...inspite of my north indian brothers and sisters ,especially those in northwestern india who share blood and culture with your lot, causing pain to the fabric of india, we`re still a decent lot...i know you`re looking forward to visiting New Delhi again....one thing india is which your country isn`t...india is a democracy....i say no more.`` --

now in your next life u will born an ant for saying all this hahaha

#116 by omar_r_quraishi

[and no, i dont call anyone who disagrees with me an RSS sympathizer but based on the stuff some of your compatriots write and post on chowk i think any sensible person would call them that]

Does that mean you`re not one among them, i mean the sensible?

[if your not an RSS sympathizer then your not -- why does a remark from someone who doesnt know, has never met you and probably will never meet u create such a reaction?]

Anyone who`s been reading your posts of late will tell you that you`re the one who`s reacting. Your posts give it away Omar `mian`. Give up. Or keep facing the music.

#129 by veeresh

Peter Gabriel experiments with all kinds of international music. He also used vocals of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan on soundtrack of The Last Temptation of Christ. That doesn’t mean that qawwals are replacing vocalists in rock music. There are countless other examples of such fusion, but versatility of electric guitar as the main instrument in rock music remains unchallenged. I have great respect for classical musicians and traditional instruments, but I don’t think anything can replace a guitar solo in rock music. Check Joe Satriani and Steve Vai live in concert to understand what one can do with an electric guitar.

Your comment regarding acceptability of classical rock in Pakistan is not accurate so I would assume that it was due to your lack of understanding of it. It is not limited to pirated discs of International bands. We have a number of local rock bands, mostly led by some brilliant guitar players of our generation, with thousands of fans attending their concerts and buying their CD’s. Their music is mostly a fusion of classical rock and traditional musical influences. I haven’t heard anything even remotely comparable coming from India in terms of quality rock music. But I am open to reconsidering this position if you could give me pointers to some of India’s finest guitar players. Here is a no-jokes-intended list of some brilliant Pakistani guitar players:

Amir Zaki
Faraz Anwar (Mizraab)
Salman Ahmad (Junoon)
Shallum Asher Xavier (Fuzon)
Mekaal Hassan (Mekaal Hassan Band)

These are just some of the names. You can find music of these artists at any Pakistani music website on the internet or on Pakistani TV channels and radio stations. Many of them tour internationally as well. These are very much in the mainstream of Pakistani music, but you can also find music of Pakistani underground rock bands at various websites, including http://www.umrevolution.com. In terms of Pakistani music, a lot has changed in last 15 years, and unacceptability of music is not acceptable to most young Pakistanis anymore. People in general are also quite open to this change. I can personally testify to that because I used to travel from NWFP to Bahawalpur, often on public transport with long hair and a guitar in my hand. And I certainly was not the only one doing that. We know how to rock! :)

Thanks.

sadna: ``When Bidwai sticks strictly to facts or interpretations of facts then he has worth. When he goes into rhetoric or outright abuse(like he did with President Kalam) then I can`t stand him.`` -- i wish u applied this to your compatriots who interact here -- and by the way to your question

---

``How many times has the Pakistani public been informed of this by the English press in these intervening years ? Suddenly in the year 2004, the `liberal` and `free` Pakistani press publishes a few select articles and demands to be called liberal and free. That ruse works only when people have no other sources of information.-- if u only dug into chowk a bit deeper u would have found an article published in 2000 which talked about the kind of textbooks that pakistani students had to study from in govt schools and how different were those in the private schools -- and that article came in the english language press of pakistan -- it would help if you tried to look beyond your biases sadna -- :)

#129 by veeresh

As a follow-up, I got a website (www.gigapad.com) of Indian underground rock bands from Nikki7777. Any other pointers are also most welcome. Rock artists of all countries, unite! :) Thanks.

Ahmed Bilal/126 . . . on guitar players from India . . .

a) Freddie Mercury of QUEEN. (Firdus Mehta?)
b) Remo Fernandes.
c) Pandit Vishwa Mohan Bhatt.
d) Ehsaan Noorani & Loy Mendonsa with Shankar Mahadevan.
e) Narayana Iyengar (chitraveena, triple guitar)
f) There is this one guy from Karnal, I forget his name, who plays with Madonna as well as part of a group my son keeps listening to, I forget the name.
g) Jimi Hendrix, ofcourse, is another famous South Indian.

However, jokes apart, I would also suggest you try to get hold of some of Shiv Kumar Sharma`s santoor music, beats guitar anyday. I am reliably informed that Nick Nolte as well as Peter Gabriel are both trying to incorporate the santoor as an alternative to the basic steel/electric guitar.

I agree that many young people would rather listen to music . . . but Ahmed, in all of Islamabad & Rawalpindi put together there is only one small shop which even attempts to repair traditional musical instruments. My comment on ``Muslims who like music not being acceptable in Pakistan`` stems from that, not from the cheap availability of pirated discs.

I can understand one, maybe two, generations post Independence concentrating more on survival, having been through that in India myself. But now it is time to get along, no?

+++

(Nikki7777 to please excuse us, your generalisations on Punjabis don`t really impact my mixed North/South/West genes and world citizen family background, but all you display is a lack of understanding when you try to substitute content and knolwedge with hot air and bluster)

+++

No, Omar & hellhound, I am not patronising. I have as much of a right to an opinion on Pakistan as anybody else who hailed from that part of the world.

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#111 by veeresh

[These Muslims are not acceptable to Pakistanis]

This is too much of a misinformed generalization. There are plenty of Pakistani fans of classic rock, and many of them would gladly walk into a concert on their way out of a mosque. Probably you are not aware of the growing rock music scene of Pakistan, which has its own distinct sound now with fusion of rock and local music. Junoon’s sufi rock is a good example of that. I can try to find Salman Ahmad’s documentary “Rock Star and the Mullahs” for you on this conflict if you are interested. I would appreciate if anyone could give me pointers to Indian guitar-players. Thanks.

I am no fan of MM Joshi and according to me, he was one of the most shady of all the previous Cabinet.

However, speaking of Arabic, Urdu and Murli Manohar Joshi, just to point out that nothing is ever simple in India:

June 2001
Rs 8 Crore for Urdu Bureau
New Delhi: The Central Government has allocated Rs 8 crore for the National Bureau for Promotion of Urdu this year. In a letter to the Bureau Director Mohammed Hameedullah Bhatt, Union HRD Minister Prof. Murli Manohar Joshi said the allocation has been increased in view of the need to link promotion of Urdu with information technology (IT) Mission.

December 2001
The Union government has started implementing an ambitious plan to modernize and computerize Madrassas in the right earnest. It is also in the process of recruiting science teachers and funding their computerization programmes. Minister for human resources development M M Joshi recently sanctioned 800 science teachers for Madrassas apart from a number of computers. He also appealed to the Muslim philanthropic bodies to encourage madrassas to adopt the mainstream education system along with their theological training. The HRD Ministry report says that the government is spending Rs 12 crore annually on Madrassas compared to Rs. 2 crore every year earlier. It also noted that the remuneration for teachers in Madrassas has also been doubled to Rs. 3000. The budget of the National Bureau for Promotion of Urdu Language has been substantially raised from Rs 5.5 crore to Rs 8 crore this year in order to encourage IT education among the minorities.

So far, 100 computer centres have been set up in the 67 districts in 22 states in which 7000 students are being trained in computer application annually. One part of this weaning exercise has to focus on language, considering that Urdu and Arabic literature form the core of the studies in most madrassas. Joshi also confirmed that the government also provides them with more funds for translating books in Urdu and all NCERT books will now be available to the madrassas in Urdu.



June 2004
http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEP20040615124938&Page=P&Title=States&Topic=0&

Spoken Arabic course becomes big hit in Bihar

PATNA: Spoken Arabic is giving spoken English tough challenge as the most-sought-after course in Bihar, thanks to youths taking their job hunt to the Gulf.

The government-run `madrassas`, or religious schools of Islam, that started spoken Arabic courses with assistance from central human resources development ministry are doing booming business, sources say.

sadna # 122

``outright abuse(like he did with President Kalam) then I can`t stand him``

There is a guy called Ram something whose opinions appear on the Daily Times. He recently called Bajpai Hitler. This guy is from The Hindu.

Can we blame the Pakistanis if they believe that innocent Muslims are being all gassed in India? All they need, and greatly relish, is a little further goading from FV types to complete their picture of India. :)

re: OmarRQureshi # 116

The following are your specifics on the saffronization of Indian education. Clearly these are departures from the aggressively secular model India has pursued since the days of Nehru. But consider whether these come anywhere near what, according to your own research, is taught in Pakistani government schools.


1. ``The BJP and its allies have also called for the ``Hinduization`` of education in India. .... Their plan`s more controversial points included compulsory courses on ``Indian values`` from preschool to graduate school, the inclusion of Hindu religious texts into all syllabi, and teacher training in Indian values and culture at all levels. ``


Not in the best traditions of secularism but equivalent to including Quranic teachings in Muslim countries. Quranic teachings can be included without inculcating hatred (I gathered this is what you were suggesting in your article in the Dawn), and so is the case with Hindu religious texts. Hard to argue that teaching `Indian values` means turning schools into factories of hatred. More like the demand from the Christian right to include ``Christian values`` in Western education.



2. ``The proposal......was ultimately withdrawn after vociferous objections from several state education ministers.``

Says something about the nature of opposition in India to introducing even ``Indian values` and including (excerpts from) Hindu religious texts.


3. ``As of February 1999, Vidya Bharati had already set up 14,000 primary and secondary schools and dozens of colleges with a total of 1.8 million students, and sought to expand its networks in areas where Christian missionary activity was particularly strong.``

If Christian missionary activity is particularly strong, Hindu missionary activity has strong right to be active as well. So unless someone sees Hinduism itself as an evil for which Christianity is the cure, it is difficult to see the point here.


4. ``RSS also planned to set up a series of Sanskrit-language colleges in an attempt to make the ancient language the common language of all Indians.``


This is a clear misstatement. RSS plans for widespread understanding of Sanskrit language, not to make it the common language of all Indians. Consider that the teaching of Arabic language in a Pakistani school does not automatically make the school worthy of opposition from liberally-minded political people.

5. ``Vidya Bharati textbooks defend the 1992 destruction of the Babri Masjid by presenting archaeological evidence to suggest that the mosque was built atop the ruins of a Hindu temple which marked the birthplace of the Hindu god Ram.``

This is one charge that liberally-minded political people can genuinely bring against Vidya Bharti schools. But that is from a secular perspective. Vidya Bharti schools are not secular schools, not government schools. They are run by a religious organization. They present the Hindu point of view.


6. ``Despite the forced withdrawal of the controversial Vidya Bharati proposal, the BJP-led Uttar Pradesh government followed suit soon after the national conference to make compulsory the singing of Saraswati Vandana (a Hindu prayer to the goddess Saraswati) and Vande Mataram (a patriotic song) by students in its schools.``


This may be wrong or may not be, depending upon whether a private school run by a religious organization can make its religious prayers compulsory. Can a privately funded Pakistani Madrassa that does not preach hatred make Islamic prayers compulsory for its students without the fear of strong liberal opposition? I don`t know Pakistan well enough, but do you have the answer to that question?


7. ``The Uttar Pradesh minister of state for primary education has reportedly been using an RSS model to train education department officers, principals and heads of educational institutions. The learning of the Sanskrit language has also been made mandatory for classes III to VIII. ``Saraswati Vandana made mandatory in Uttar Pradesh schools,`` The Hindu, October 31, 1998.``

The Hindu (ironically) has a stridently `secular` point of view. It doesn`t say much about what it means by `an RSS model.` It probably wants us to construct an ominous image, but doesnt give any more details. Should learning of Sankrit language be compulsory? Not in my opinion. But is that equivalent to the issues of hate you yourself identified in Pakistani text books?

In summary, Hindu organizations try to introduce an Hindu flavor to Indian schools. But the Hindu flavor, like Islamic flavor, is not necessarily an evil influence (not secular, but not evil). Religious hate-mongering is what we should be opposing in India and in Pakistan.

nb #114
I remember reading Pakistani versions of the same `failed state, failed state` breast-beating rhetoric a number of times. I don`t remember the names, though.

When Bidwai sticks strictly to facts or interpretations of facts then he has worth. When he goes into rhetoric or outright abuse(like he did with President Kalam) then I can`t stand him.

Correction on number quote:

In 2001, Ahmed Rashid said ``Quite separately during the past seven years, between 50-60,000 young Pakistani militants have gone to fight in Afghanistan. Many have died there never to return, many have participated in the worst ethnic and sectarian massacres that have taken place in Afghanistan`s history.``