Textbook Questions

yes sadna i do read what i post -- from your post :``The specious plea that Muslim sentiments will be hurt if some foreign invaders are shown in their true colours, actually constitutes an insult to our Muslim brothers and sisters. Why should they answer for the crimes of foreign brigands? Did Indian Muslims not suffer as much as Indian Hindus did under their rule?`` -- yes this is not something that everyone in india, esp the muslims, would agree with sadna --

(who is this girl sadna, why does she assume that she can think for everybody else -- jeez)

sadna: ``Obviously for Pakistanis it is a crime not to praise the most destructive and ruthless of conquerors and it is a crime to value ANYTHING indigenous.`` -- didnt take long to bring out the hatred inside you against pakistan, sadna :) -- so much for your pretentious civilty dah ling


sadna you wrote: ``But by what logic do Pakistanis expect Indians to subscribe to such Pakistani values, too?``

-- who in the world is asking u to do that sadna, the article certainly doesnt -- it doesnt say anything about india in any case --

sadna again (more vicious now): ``India is different, we celebrate our indigenous languages, their literature and local arts as part of our nationhood. In Pakistan these are considered a threat to Pakistani nationhood. I still do not understand, why are Indians supposed to adhere to Pakistani worldview and Pakistani values ?`` --
pure unadulterated paki-hating vitriol -- sadna have you seen the sindhis, balochis, pathans, seraikis or other ethnicities celebrate their local customs --

stuka -- spare us the lecture and just tell us that youre no communist/socialist sympathizer and again: ``I would rather have a Urstruly talk to me about the benefits of a truly Islamic country/system then have a non-communist pass on leftist articles for my benefit. The latter is rank hypocricy.`` -- oh plz , plz stop assuming things about people u dont know -- that is ``rank`` foolishness -- and by the way plz get real, do u really think that i come to interact here for your convenience -- maybe ylh does come but not i stuka -- and your statement ``At least Indians preach the examples of secularism and democracy to Pakistan``, given that you say this on Chowk, sounds quite absurd by the way

nb -- i would have thought u would find nothing wrong with that -- look at you trying to explain yourself -- that doesnt suit u nb -- i dont have a problem with u agreeing with what the guy wrote and about romila thapar`s views and your judgment of her -- but i can say, cant i, that u guys are nothing but VHP/BJP/RSS sympathizers -- u certainly arent leftwingers because most of u seem to think that to be a term of abuse -- oh what a pity for chowk


jay -- yes actually we have written several times about the loot of plunder of hindu temples -- also wrote an editorial a couple of months ago about how a sikh temple in peshawar was being threatened by the local land mafia -- other english papers wrote about it and the demolition has been permanently halted -- anything else dear ? terrorist for you jay, freedom fighters for others -- no need to speak to the owner, my paper has a very professional editor -- and by the way we havent started writing on such stuff post 9/11 shri jay jee -- doing it ever since i can remember being at my paper, which is since 1994 -- i think that was before 9/11 --

the article in EPW and what mr murli manohar joshi goes unrebutted then -- how come none of the paki-bashers responded to the fact that when the union minister vows to rewrite history and says so in a public rally that does constitute govt policy ??? come on, where are the rebuttals from you pathological paki-haters --


i used to think that the indian education system is much better than pakistan`s but after seeing the indians on chowk i might have to reconsider that view --

omar_r_quraishi #97

the article in EPW and what mr murli manohar joshi goes unrebutted then -- how come none of the paki-bashers responded to the fact that when the union minister vows to rewrite history and says so in a public rally that does constitute govt policy ???

I hope you are not just another nick for Romair. Assuming you are not, please do tell us how official Indian history, as taught in India`s government schools, preaches hatred. Others have been asking you for the same information. Just saying that the union minister vows to rewrite history doesn`t cut it.

FYI, India`s textbooks tell the traditional lie about peaceful Islam and good man Mohammad. I will be happy to provide you with evidence after you have shown us the evidence to back up your claim. After all, solid evidence must be the corner-stone of reporting in Dawn?

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omar_r_quraishi #97

``sadna have you seen the sindhis, balochis, pathans, seraikis or other ethnicities celebrate their local customs -- ``

Good for them. But there was a big problem with the legitimacy of the Bengali language of a Bengali province some years ago, and there is still a problem with legitimacy of the Punjabi language now. Apart from which, I personally have read a number of Pakistani writers argue that provincial /indigenous loyalties cut into nationalism and religious loyalties. Then there is the neverending debate on what part of indigenous heritage is adequately pure Muslim heritage and what must be shunned for its Hindu/nonArabic roots. Would you deny an increasing Arabization and Persianization of language and symbolism.

And you forgot to point out one indigenous hero or role model celebrated in Pakistan. We hear of Qasim, Ghouri, Ghazni, Abdali, Nadir Shah being Pakistani heros. They all came from outside and all went back. But these are your role models, and they are celebrated for being as destructive and rapacious as they were. Your choice, but there is no reason why this must be India`s choice.


``:``The specious plea that Muslim sentiments will be hurt if some foreign invaders are shown in their true colours, actually constitutes an insult to our Muslim brothers and sisters. Why should they answer for the crimes of foreign brigands? Did Indian Muslims not suffer as much as Indian Hindus did under their rule?`` -- yes this is not something that everyone in india, esp the muslims, would agree with sadna -- ``

You mean to say Indian Muslims WANT to be held responsible for the past crimes of foreign brigands? First I am hearing of this. Who was that guy who ravaged Delhi and massacred two hundred thousand of its inhabitants in a short time? You want us to celebrate his military prowess, his looting and the destruction he wrought on Hindus and Muslims alike like Pakistanis do? Why? btw, he did not stay, he went back too.

The issue of what Indian Muslims would prefer is debatable, and the wisdom of celebrating medieval marauders for their rampages is also debatable. That is precisely what the author is saying.

You have a problem with that, that the issue is considered debatable. You always have a problem when an issue is considered debatable. As you repeatedly say, you don`t come here to debate, you come here to tell us off. Well, you will henceforth do it on your own time, not mine.

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``oh plz , plz stop assuming things about people u dont know -- that is ``rank`` foolishness -- ``

Omar:

So you are a communist?? Deft way of avoiding the issue.

The News, Karachi, Pakistan
Saturday February 01, 2003-- Ziqa`ad 28 1423 A.H.

Coping with the enemy
by Mir Jamilur Rahman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

..... President Muhammad Khatami of Iran, who has just concluded a state visit to India, told a gathering in New Delhi that Mahmood Ghaznavi was a marauder who plundered and destroyed Somnath. He added that Mahmood Ghaznavi did not represent Islamic values; he was a military invader and his 17 assaults on India have no relation with Islam or Islamic principles. In fact, the President of Iran said, rulers like Mahmood Ghaznavi have brought bad name to Islam.

Could a Pakistani ever consider Mahmood Ghaznavi a marauder? In their eyes he is a ghazi and hero who smashed the idols. In the eyes of Hindus he is a barbarian who destroyed and looted their temples. And President Khatami has agreed with the Hindus. Does it make him our enemy?

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http://www.dawn.com/2003/09/12/letted.htm#5

DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
12 September 2003 Friday 14 Rajab 1424

Who was Abdali?
by GHULAM KIBRIA, Karachi

The ongoing debate on Abdali (Encounter, Aug 30) brought back to my memory an old Punjabi saying, Khada peetalahe dabaqi Ahmad Shahe da. It was heard in my younger days in Lahore. Being curious to know its background and significance I turned to an elderly person. He explained that this saying refers to Ahmad Shah Abdali`s annual looting spree in Lahore when he would take away everything his army - actually was a gang of looters - could lay their hands upon.

This saying emphasizes the need for spending all one earned during the year and the virtue of not saving anything. For whatever saved would be taken away by Ahmad Shah Abdali.

Lahore was an overwhelmingly Muslim city. Whether Abdali was a ghazi and mujahid or a lotaira is for Islam lovers, academicians and historians to debate, this saying only emphasizes the ground reality.

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http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_10-10-2003_pg3_7

Daily Times
Friday, October 10, 2003

Can Musharraf be like Ghaznavi?
By Khaled Ahmed

For us the great Muslim conquerors of history are a constant inspiration. Reverence to them became a part of the process of nation-building in Pakistan after 1947, especially if these conquerors were not favoured by India. If the Indians liked Akbar, we had to condemn him for deviating from true Islam, even though there would be some aspects of his rule worth emulating for us today to nurture a civil society at peace with itself. If the Indians disliked someone, we had to admire him. That`s what happened in the case of Ghaznavi who invaded India a number of times and laid its places of worship waste in the name of Islam. Ironically, the BJP is paying back for what he did. Because the Indians hated Aurangzeb for imposing ``jazia`` on them, we had to admire him although he was cruel to his brothers and persecuted the mystics we otherwise cherish.

Columnist Javed Chaudhry wrote in ``Jang`` (24 September 2003) that when the Afghan king Mahmud Ghaznavi wanted to invade India his commander advised him to first take care of trouble in the north of Afghanistan. Another courtier told him that as a king he was not to ``ask`` a commander whether he should invade India. He should just give an order and leave it to the commander to carry it out. The column said that General Musharraf instead of giving orders to build Kalabagh Dam was waiting for a consensus in the provinces.

While it is true that strategic decisions have to be taken in Pakistan sometimes without popular approval, it would be improper to refer to Mahmud Ghaznavi as an example to induce General Musharraf to take the decision on the Kalabagh Dam in the teeth of the opposition he faces in three provinces. Anything built in the name of Ghaznavi would not be right for Pakistan simply because his medieval rule was completely out of kilter with the requirements of governance today.

We sometimes wrongly refer to the Justice of Emperor Jehangir (Adl-e-Jehangir) as a model for our justice system today, which is most embarrassing. Jehangir had a bell outside his palace where citizens would shout their petitions for him to decide. The one decision he famously made about his own queen was a most shabby miscarriage of justice. It was also a blatant violation of the separation of the judiciary in today`s terms. Ghaznavi as a medieval marauder is not a good reference to present to a ruler of today. It simply shows a kind of residual primitiveness in us. General Musharraf may be a military ruler but we cannot ask him to become savage like Ghaznavi who after all didn`t do the horrible thing to his own people. .....

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BBC News
Wednesday, 29 May, 2002, 13:43 GMT 14:43 UK

Pakistan`s missile symbolism
By Zaffar Abbas
BBC correspondent in Islamabad

..... Pakistan relates the present conflict in South Asia to the conflicts of the mediaeval period when Muslim warriors from Afghanistan frequently invaded India.

Ghauri, Ghaznavi, Abdali - these are the three ballistic missiles Pakistan test-fired in the last week.

But these are also names of three prominent Muslim warlords, or conquerors, who invaded India from Afghanistan between the 11th and 18th centuries in an attempt to expand their empires. .....

..... Muhammad Ghauri was a powerful Afghan warlord who in the 12th century had two fierce battles with the Hindu ruler of northern India, Prithviraj Chouhan. .....

..... The other two missiles Pakistan tested during the week are also named after 11th and 18th-century Afghan conquerors, Mehmood Ghaznavi and Ahmed Shah Abdali.

Ghaznavi is described in history books as a temple-destroyer who attacked India 17 times.

Pakistan has never given any specific reason for naming these missiles after such historical figures.

But the symbolism is a clear reflection of the official mindset in the country.

It shows that for Islamabad, the present conflict with India is a continuation of the battles of the past between people described in Pakistani history books as just Muslim invaders and several of India`s cruel Hindu emperors.

stuka -- ill say it again -- i didnt ask u for your ideological beliefs did i -- sadna, ralphie boy, arjun jee, and jang -- bad retreat guys

sadna: ``And you forgot to point out one indigenous hero or role model celebrated in Pakistan`` -- ever heard of heer or mahiwal sadna -- or jinnah or iqbal -- i suppose uw ouldnt have --
sadna again: ``You mean to say Indian Muslims WANT to be held responsible for the past crimes of foreign brigands? `` -- no (exasperated totally now) i am not saying that.. ufff -- cant u read sadna -- i am saying that this interpretation is debatable and that some people in india might disagree with u -- dont know how u got that inference --

jang -- i gave u stuff from the indian press and sources -- i think that should be more credible than what a pakistani journalist would have to say on the issue -- dont u think so?

jang again: ``Thanks again, but I was hoping for something original, considering you are a journalist, and perhaps have access to some material not accessible or already known to us.`` -- actually jang no need for that, because the saffronization policies of the previous govt were in the public realm -- were frequently debated in mainstream indian newspapers and u want proof ????


sadna again: ``As you repeatedly say, you don`t come here to debate, you come here to tell us off. Well, you will henceforth do it on your own time, not mine.`` -- sadna do u have a habit of making up things -- i never said i dont come here for debate but that i dont need to explain myself to people -- debate is not about asking launching attacks on a person`s race, nation or whatever and then expecting him to respond -- and yes i would rather indulge in debate with people who can be reasonably civil and most importantly tolerant of other peoples views -- that im afraid is quite missing with most (not all) of the indian interactors here -- as for my time, your time, sadna, i will be all the more happier if u dont respond to me -- i am not asking u or forcing u to come on chowk , or am i?

Well, omar, you still didn`t explain what is wrong with that. I still see nothing wrong with that.I wish I could be an RSS sympathiser, life would be more cut and dry, but I can`t, it`s not, life is in shades of grey. It would be easier for you too, if you could just call all Indians who don`t agree with you RSS sympathisers.Unfortunately, you won`t explain why you said that, because you don`t have to, you can say anything you like and go away.
This is completely bizarre, but obviously it is just you,not all Pakis(that may be a term of abuse in England, but because I`m unfortunately from the same ethnic group, I can use that),talking at people rather than with. You`re obviously not used to explaining yourself or taking responsibility for yourself. Poor little rich kid.

Omar, you pointed out that article as an example of saffronisation. Just saying that because you told Sadna that all you were saying was that some people disagreed. It wasn`t.Of course they did disagree, people disagree with the time in India if they can.
I find it highly interesting that you seem to think of yourself as left-wing. What do you do that qualifies you as left-wing? Wow-you pay your taxes. Of course, you won`t explain-you will pronounce and disappear, but it would make you seem less of a hypocrite.

nb #107
After BJP lost power, J S Rajput has in any way lost his job as NCERT head and his tenure ends on July 15.

Omar might or might not be leftist, but I suspect he belongs to the vast liberal majority of our neighbours who think that killing Hindus has always been the liberal thing to do throughout history, because Hindu = fascist by definition.

Hence Hindus are supposed to be seen not heard. Even a public speech by a government minister causes hai-tauba among these liberals, baath yahaan tak aa gayi. Then horror of horrors, they appoint their own people to various posts and worst of all express their opinions.

Teaching children whole Quranic suras exhorting armed aggression against unbelievers, devoid of any historical context whatsoever, can never equal the fascism inherent in a Hindu saying Hindus and Hinduism were not all bad.

That is the framework this guy talks from. The Hindutva-Left ideological tussle on one hand and the real need to find the best rationalization of different Hindu-Muslim historical viewpoints for a composite society, escape him entirely.

There are no Pakistani equivalents of Praful Bidwai or Arundhati. Omar thinks of himself as a liberal, yet his equivalent among the Indians wouldn`t be dost-mittar or you or me, but someone like gujjubania, who makes no claims to being liberal.To be an Indian liberal, you cannot be a ``practising``- whatever that means-hindu, and you must deny that your ancestors from before the 12th century had any widom whatsoever; that all good things came from areas west of India. No wonder the RSS grows...
Before you even ask, Omar, I think of myself as slightly liberal because I am a non-post-modern feminist, I believe in gay marriage-and attend commitment ceremonies, and unfortunately for your Rss sympathiser opinions, I have spent much of my life hanging out with Muslims.

Seven children among 10 killed in J&K blast

PTI[ TUESDAY, JUNE 15, 2004 03:46:25 PM ]

SRINAGAR : Ten persons including seven school children were injured in a grenade attack by militants in Anantnag district of Jammu and Kashmir on Tuesday morning, official sources said.




The grenade was lobbed by militants around 10 am at a patrol party of Rashtriya Rifles at village Frisal in Kulgam, but it missed the intended target and exploded on the roadside the sources said.



The children, all in the age group of 8-10 years, were on their way to their school when they were hit by splinters, the sources said adding one of the seriously injured had been shifted to Srinagar for special treatment.



No militant outfit has so far claimed responsibility for the grenade attack.



Police, assisted by security forces, have launched a hunt to nab the militants who fled the scene taking advantage of the chaos which followed the blast, the sources said.

nb/109 . . . please appreciate, for the likes of many Pakistanis especially those in the Pakistani English media, the Muslims we hang out with in India are often not Muslim enough for them. This fundamental flaw in reasoning seems to nullify any attempt to explain to some of them that odds on chances are that 1 out of 7 of my friends in India shall be Muslims, and this will include Muslim women, short and dark Muslims, Muslims who do not know a word of Urdu, Muslims who like classic rock and speak English, Muslims who marry non-Muslims, vegetarian Muslims, and a variety of sects of Muslims many of whom are not fundoos by any stretch of imagination. These Muslims are not acceptable to Pakistanis, which is fine by us Indians if they keep that logic to themselves.

Trouble arises when they try to dictate to us in India who is Muslim or not based on their outlook.

Likewise, a certin percentage of people in India will be fundoo, and chances are here that one in seven will be Muslim, too.

For years on chowk I have not been able to get any Pakistani inter-actor to define Muslim for me. I think I shall ask Chaka Khan and Queen Latifa and Cat Stevens too?

nb #109
``There are no Pakistani equivalents of Praful Bidwai or Arundhati.``

IMO, there are, some of whom as chronically depressed as Bidwai.