Living in Fear

I make no apologies for being emotional with this piece of writing - as i said in the article, this is personal.
Thankyou those of you who appreciate the seriousness of the situation
One thing that I should have said though is that the majority of moderate Sunnis are not to be understood as the culprits here.I understand that they condemn these barbarious acts. Having said that, even my own friends have asked me questions about my faith which are laced with camouflaged dislike and ignorance which worries me

labyrinth1: as for the gentleman who said killing shias is an isolated incident and that his father also got a threat from the banned organizations that are responsible for killing shias, that is just another attempt to say ``sub ke saath hota hai``, a way of denying the situation - not that i expect you to understand anyway. These statistics for 2004 paint a different picture though, dont you think? and this is just this year...

June 6, MULTAN: Shia Gynaecologist Dr Suraiya Nisar shot dead in DG Khan
May 31, KARACHI: 25 Shias died in Ali Raza mosque bombing: 38 injured
May 20, JHANG: Attempt to burn a Shia Imambargah by a mob of 40 near Jhang in Kotwali May 14, LAHORE: Shia family of 6 shot dead in Mughalpura
May 7, KARACHI: 22 Shias died in Sindh Madressatul Islam mosque bombing: 96 injured
March 2, QUETTA: 48 Shias Killed 140 injured in suicide attacks on religious procession
March 2, MANDI BAHAUDDIN: 2 Shias killed and 53 injured in Phalia clash
March 2, MAILSI & GILGIT: Imambargah attacked, mourning procession stopped
February 28, RAWALPINDI: Suicide Bomber dies in suicide attack on imambargah in Satellite Town
February 16, GILGIT: 3 Shias injured in blast at Imambargah
http://www.geocities.com/sipahisahaba/2004/02032004b.htm

Romair:
Who am i to decide the fate of a people? Rule whether they are Muslims or not?

jahannumi...

vohi qatl bhi karay hai
vohi lay sawaab ulta

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Once you give one group or State the authority to declare another to be non-Muslim, then you have set a snowball in motion, which will just get bigger and bigger. And will crush anyone who comes in its way......with eventually only the most powerful group surviving.....

So first of all, one has to ask the Shia community what their views on the State declaring people like Ahmedis to be Muslims or non-Muslims. If they say that the State has that authority, then I am afraid they have just set into motion something, which may envelope their own community someday. In that case, I am not sure what kind of argument one can put in place to protect Shias.

Now if they say that they are against the State declaring anyone Muslim or non-Muslim, then, one must do everything to ensure that Shias do not face the same situatin someday that Ahmedis face (this does not mean the State should not protect Shias, regardless of their views on Ahmedis, etc.)

Having said that, I don`t think, at least in Pakistan, Shias will face the same situation. There is no support nationwide for Shia-Sunni conflicts. All the acts are being carried out by tiny terrorist organizations, which the State is trying to track down. Despite all the bombings in Pakistan, there has yet to be an civilian strife between Shias and Sunnis. Jinnah was Shia (or Shia-leaning). Bhuttos are Shias. The interior minister and the previous ones were Shia. The last Chief of Air Staff was Shia etc.

All of Pakistan`s local and state based strifes are always based on ethnic lines. Shia and Sunni Muhajirs jointly fight Shia and Sunni Sindhis. Shia and Sunni Punjabis jointly fought Shia and Sunni Bengalis etc. Not an ideal scenario, I understand. But ethnic strife is always much less dangerous than religious strife. Because in ethnic strife, people don`t think their messages are coming straight from God.

But before one presents a long argument, at a philosophical level on this issue, one must ask the author, and all other sects (specifically Shias, in this case), the following question:

Do you think the State, or a group of powerful and influential, ``ulema`` has the right to declare a person to be a Muslim or non-Muslim. And do you think Ahmedis are Muslims or non-Muslims?

My answer to the first question is, ``No.`` My answer to the second question is, ``I don`t know.`` We know the majority Sunni view. What are the Shia views...........

This grim issue is chopping at the very foundations of Pakistan.

Murder in the name of sectarianism is as vile as any other.

Many of the best and brightest in Pakistan have been Shia.

The future does not look bright......

Ras

# 2 hellbound: Chowk`s policy of each person deciding for himself is far better than any censorship system... the criteria are too difficult to decide and for each person who agress with your opinion, there will be many who, counter-attacking, suggest that you yourself ought to be censored!

# 3 veeresh: of what the majority has against:
Ahmediyyas: this seems to have formed as an issue to claim Pakistani-ness against. It`s sad and until very recently I also adhered to the view that Ahmediyyas could not be called Muslims for denying the finality of Prophethood. Later I found out that there is a spectrum within Ahmadiyyism too. At a certain point, I got so sick and tired of all the nitpicking that I started wondering if it wouldn`t be simpler to live and let live and let God decide for himself. And in any case, it seemed contradictory to put down a minority given that it was for the very protection of minorities that the state was created in the first place.
Christians: personally, nothing, nothing at all. But for some reason they seem to be looked down upon - there seems to be a very messed-up anti-colonial sentiment at work here: they are seen as traitors who gave up their native traditions and their faith to ape the gora saab. That the original converts should have found this a preferred escape route is a testament to the poverty of colonial Indian society and its caste system (which persist in much more muted form even in Muslim India/Pakistan/Bangladesh, I think). But people seem to always want to have soft targets to set themselves off against. What they forget is that ``there is no disgust where there is hunger``. Quoted out of context I admit, but seems to apply here too. And finally, each of us is born into a religion. Why should an accident of birth be held against you?
Hindus: again, nothing personally (well, not since class 9 I guess). Otherwise, pretty obvious, don`t you think, given our beautiful histories and their even better-decorated official versions?
Shias: this is something I`ve been trying to figure out recently too... Temporel`s article seems to provide some answers, but it`s not sourced well enough, and is too personal to generalise from. I know that many Sunnis, otherwise perfectly sane, go raving mad when they think about the abuse that some allege orthodox Shias heap on the companions they don`t like. Given the hero worship we generally accord to these almost mythical personalities, this is not surprising. Still, that it should lead to killing or other sorts of violence, indicates a lower maturity level. I still remember the many unfortunate and surprisingly acrimonious debates that sprung up between group members working on their Islamic studies term papers back in *second* year of university. We simply don`t have any distance from our religion. Or more precisely, a selective amnesia... for religion also preaches the sanctity of life. And the Prophet has condemned acting in anger... there is actually a full hadith on how best to calm yourself, with the final limit being: if all else fails, don`t speak to anyone, drink a glass of water and retire to bed (this is not a literal citation, more a gist of what I remember, so correct any mistakes and forgive me if this offends you). In any case, the differences are all theological and what we tend to trip on the difference between being a good human being and a good Muslim... these subjects have surely been treated in a much better way and with far more perceptivity elsewhere, so I probably don`t add much here... just want to add sometimes I think that the Christian turning the cheek or the Gandhian fast are really not such bad ideas... esp. those sometimes where you can actually gain something from it... a suddenly material statement there, but then the chief opposition to this approach is the material survival of the oppressed. Given that Sunni majority is not at all oppressed, some dialogue would certainly help.
But most of these sentiments are beneath the surface. Or are they? I think of the innumerable times some self-proclaimed sage/family elder would say, after a meeting with Shia acquaintances, ``but you know you never can really trust them... oopar sey buhat meethey hotey hain, magar andar sey...`` similar stuff for Ahmadis, but not Christians. (Reminds you also of the British attitude in dealing with Indians.) Never met a Hindu in Pakistan, though there are rumours of their existence in Sindh. Come to think of it, similar stuff for ``Sialkotias`` and those from Gujranwala too! dog eat dog really.
Still, still, apart from the famous fringe elements, I doubt anyone is rooting for genocide in Pakistan (and what on earth would you base it on anyways, in such a potpourri of cultures and ethnicities?!) The reasons generally seem to be political... whose politics? I wish I knew, I wish I could understand.
The interesting question is: in what ways are these old prejudices, that had more credence in the presence of a weak or non-existent state presence and strong reliance on autonomous traditional social structures and systems, being passed on to the newer generation? I say ways, because identifying them would help in cutting down on this insidious passage, given the crucial national consensus... sometimes your words seem so pointless, you start agreeing with the pragmatic ciritic in your head going, ``words, words... that`s all you`ll ever amount to``
waisey, exactly what `truth` are you talking about there veeresh? and it seems you can`t help sounding patronising to us ;)

to the author: thank you for writing this article. this is exactly the sort of thing that leads to deeper reflection, might even move people to go beyond knee-jerk reactions... thinking of Voltaire`s ``the million reasonings of men worth nothing in front of the sentiment of a woman``... too bad emotion is a double-edged sword. At any rate, I sincerely hope that writing this has wrought some sort of cathartic effect for you.

Batool ...

Shia hatred, torture, killing, lack of freedom is not limited to Karachi. It`s just very brutal in Karachi.

If you look at the history of Islam, ever since Shias emerged or ever since the Prophet died, his family i.e, Ahl-Al-Bayt suffered animosity. And so did their followers. And do date, the problem persists in almost every where that you find Shias.

what is a shia?

.......a few years ago my brother-in-law`s mamoon (maternal uncle) passed away and we all showed up for his chaleeswan or jumairat or kul, or whatever, to pray for his soul so that he could rack up the brownie points necessary to get into jannah ............. not being a shaheed and having died of natural causes, he needed our prayers to get into the happy playground to play with the doe-eyed virgins ............ anyway, dressed up in our funeral finery, we showed up for the ritual arabic chanting to be followed by the funereal feast of pulao and korma when, lo and behold, we were confronted by an amazing sight !............. no, it was not mamoon jan doing a lazarus............ we were confronted by the sight and sounds of a shia mullah dressed in black turban and robe sitting on a raised dais wailing and crying abut some little kid who had been mortally wounded by an arrow hundreds of years ago ............ i must admit it was a moving passion play which brought tears to my eyes even though i didn`t know this poor little child ............. i looked at my mother, she seemed to be petrified as she whispered in my father`s ear .............. they both seemed to be equally moved by the plight of hussain`s gallant little band as they were besieged by the monstrous yazid .............

........... on the way back, with the zarda still lingering on our lips, mother finally spoke, `` yeh log to shia hain``.........gotcha!........ she had never really cared much for her new son-in-law, him being rather dark complected and a little short, and now he turns out to be a shia .....so now what?......... i expected something to happen - some fatwa, some hand wringing, recriminations, counter recriminations ............ but nothing happened ........ the ugly deed was done and nobody seemed to care .......... maybe it is because the happy couple produced some lighter complected sunni-shia mongrels and they didn`t name them omar, usman or ali .............

............. so, the other day i called up a dear old friend who i have known for forty years and asked him, `` hassan ali mian, i have been wondering, are you a khatmal ?``.......... ``i thought i told you that in 1973 when the jamaatias came gunning for us thinking we were ahmedis``............``yeah?``......``yeah``......... ``i understand we sunnis can get into heaven by killing six shias - can i pull the plug on your respirator when the time comes?``............ ``sure buddy, anything for you .... as a matter of fact, you should also talk to haider and zain``.............``they shia too?``............``you didn`t know``..........`` well, i`ll be darned - you guys are all over``............. i guess we grew up in innocent times when nobody cared .............

.............there were always a lot of shias in quetta and i can still remember sitting outside my grandfather`s store on gurdat singh road watching the parade on ashura ......... he would shut down the store and install a sabeel with his assistant handing out iced water to the mourners who whipped themselves with chains ......... it was a fine parade, with a white horse and elaborately decorated tazias and people lined up on both sides of the street .......... shia or sunni, they all stood quitely, looking sad and solemn as the mourners passed by ........ it was always a somber moment and after the parade had passed i would ask, ``khan baba, tell me the story of how baby sakina found her father`s body``............. for the umpteenth time he would repeat the story and even though he was a sunni his bright blue eyes misted and a tear would trickle into his immaculately trimmed white beard as he softly and reverently whispered `` ........ and just then the clouds parted and the moon came out and there she was, sleeping on her father`s chest``..........

````We need to address the misconceptions, the bigotry, the disguised hatred that many Muslims have for Shias.````

Misconceptions: Yes

Bigotory: Maybe

Hatred (Disguised or otherwise): absolutely rubbish!

Sister basically you got teh whole concept wrong!
We got a letter and threats from Lashke-r-Jhanvi although we were Sunnis but my father ignored and went along with his mission. The thing is its hard to be a minority anywhere in teh world being a Shia I agree is tough but being a Urdu Speaking is evenly tought too but we shoudl all have faith that one day everything will be alright. The thing is people liek Jhanvis and Lashkeers and Sahabas dont look at your cast, creed or religion they look at there political agendas which are to complete there missions. I know for the fact that in mid-90`s Ship-e-Shaba got more guns in Karachi then anyone that includes anyone (Jamat,MQM,Gangs) -- but how? they were dictated by ISI and MI where IB was opposed to them but who cares after all IB was a civilian agency.
Then for sure Iran and Saudis were in direct war against eachother one of the example was teh killing of 2 Irani Eng`s in Clifton which are peopel for sure dont know were sorry to write thsi but were dictating some of teh attacks in Multan and Karachi directly the response was the Sunni Mosque attack in Karachi and teh revenge goes on and on. If you go to Karachi University lot of Irani Students specially doing teher PHd`s in Chemistry Dept and Dr.Ata`s Dept were picked up and handed to ISI they were for sure involved in some killings. Teh direct role of Iran was proved when IB (Bchistan) actually got one of the cheques signed by a Irani High Level Government Offical was caught and Pakistani Minister for Foreign Affairs went on to that offical and handed the cheque back to him. That was Irani involvement. Sunnis involvement I am afriad known by everyone both Pakistani Govt and Saudis were dierctly involved.
So teh bottom line is , no one cares about Shis and Sunnis everyone wants there political objective achieved and if you know most of teh Government Officals High Level and Mid-Levels are Shias anyway.

#2 Hellhound

I don`t see how you came to your conclusion wrt ``These killings are not part of any concerted efforts by Sunnis to instill fear of their god in Shias... It is not like every Sunni wakes up in the morning with a mission to kill a shia as part of his or her things to do....)

Batool has very correctly highlighting the dread and emotional trauma that Shias in Pakistan have had to go through. There is no sweeping indictment of the majority Sunni muslims.

However, you contradict your self when stating that these killings are not part of any concerted efforts. The evidence clearly points to very powerful, well-funded and well organized groups, which enjoy tremendous priveliges in Pakistan. Remember Azam Tariq, who in a BBC interview in 1995 claimed that Pakistan should be rid of Shias. Ofcourse, in 2003 he amended it to a 10-15 year jail sentence ``Rather than killing Shiites, [Maulana Azam Tariqh M.P] said, they ``should merely be declared non-Muslims``and jailed for 10 or 15 years.`` And his organization, along with its parent and sister organizations (the various Jaishs, Harkats, Sipahs, Lashkars) still enjoys great power and support. Even the spineless local media had to admit that it was Jaish that was responsible for the December bombings of Musharaf. While Masood Azhar was under house arrest in 2003, he was still roaming around freely all over Pakistan, and was even lecturing Army Jawans at public gatherings. Azam Tariq was allowed to run for the 2002 elections despite the fact that he was named as a suspect in over 2 dozen murder cases!

Batool`s emotions are shared by many Shias and Sunni friends and relatives and hence it is disappointing when you state ``It is a shame that Chowk staff is less than judicious in selectiing the articles for publication. By publishing articles such as this, which is primarily driven by one person`s emotions, gives such opinion a credence which is not ncessarily warranted.``

News and views cannot always be santized and loaded with euphemisms in order to make them more palatable. And I don`t think that Batool`s piece is simply driven by emotion; on the contrary, it is meant to evoke some emotion that would seek to address this issue in a constructive manner. And finally, not everyone can count on divine inspiration before taking pen to paper.

#3 veerish

Its not the majority that is against the existence of Shias, Ahmediyyas, Hindus, Christains.
This carnage is due to 25 years of the State flirting with extremism and Jihad as local and foreign policy substitutes. The ``chickens have come home to roost`` and the Pakistani religious and sectarian minorities are paying the price for the State`s love affair with the ``mujhahideen`` (along with the Saudis and the CIA ) in the 80`s, followed by the Taliban, Jaish and Harkats in the 90`s up to present. So far Mush has said all the right things about ``Enlightened Moderation`` but has done NOTHING to judiciously try and sentence (let alone catch) most terrorists; he has done NOTHING to role back the Draconian Hudood and Blasphemy laws , nor has he done anything to amend the textbooks that teach distorted values and history. Far from taking a stand, he and most of his ministers have caved into every demand made by the ``religious lobby`` (his education minister proclaims herself as a ``Fundementalist`` while his religious minister (the son of Zia-ul-Haq, who supervised and oversaw most of this mess) openly admits to dumping in the trash, an independant report which highlights the funding and role of many madresses in creating and supporting extremism. Meanwhile high ranking Sunni leaders, intellectuals and security officers have also been killed or threatened whenever they have taken a stance against Pakistani religious lobbies.

To raise some questions, and try to provide our own understanding of these issues from here in India . . .

1) ````We need to address the misconceptions, the bigotry, the disguised hatred that many Muslims have for Shias.```` Please do. There is still no clear understanding, after years on chowk, of what the Pakistani majority have against the existence of Shias, Ahmediyyas, Hindus, Christians.

2) ````What is the recourse of these individuals who see sheer injustice done to their relatives, fathers, brothers and friends? What is our recourse? ```` Please, to start with, accept facts, as a society, move out of denial. One way would be to try to be like the rest of the world, instead of the other way around.

Any observations we make from India are bound to be met with the usual responses about them being patronising OR fundoo. Of late, certain Pakistani responses move straight into the abusive mode.

But is there any denying that Pakistan`s problems are of its own making, and, to tell the simple truth, absolutely reversible?

All one sees, however, is absolute denial of truth in Pakistan. Sad, but true. Sectarian violence is just one manifestation of that.

{– self proclaimed servants of God whose sole mission is to rid Pakistan of Shias, one by one}


God Almighty, that is a very tall claim and a very serious allegation. To say that it is a figment of your imagination would be an understatement. To disregard it as a reaction to a personal injury would be unjust and to rationalize it in any way would be utter hypocricy.

There is no such thing a master plan to rid Pakistan of Shias one by one. Period. These killings are not part of any concerted efforts by Sunnis to instill fear of their god in Shias and force them to convert. (as certain enlightened ppl have suggested here on another thread) It is not like every Sunni wakes up in the morning with a mission to kill a shia as part of his or her things to do. Surely, there was a menance created by whoever by the name of SSP, but their actions should not be taken out of context. A handful, may be thousand ppl, most of whom are now dead and buried did exactly what the writer is suggesting but that was more of a political agenda of a party and not an aspiration on part of the Sunnis to get rid of Shias one by one. On a ppl to ppl level there does not exist a sectarian divide as many of us like to believe, especially the one`s influenced by westren media, self-serving clergy, or based on their personal observation/experience.

There is no doubt in my mind and so many like myself that these targeted killings of Shias are part of strategy to divide Pakistan on religious lines, which is an integral part of a master plan to bring Pakistan, through instability, to a point where foreign intervention becomes inevitable.

India never declared a war in 1971, it`s excursion in East Pakistan was to end a civil war there and to protect innocent civilians being killed . The present scenario in Pakistan is not so different from what happened some 30 odd years ago. But all this is being brushed aside as another conspiracy theory. And we continue to look the other way by playing a blame game and conversly rolling over and playing victim.

It is a shame that Chowk staff is less than judicious in selectiing the articles for publication. By publishing articles such as this, which is primarily driven by one person`s emotions, gives such opinion a credence which is not ncessarily warranted.