Church vs Mosque

Not more than an unsuccessful attempt of undermining Islam. Carry on dude, thousands and thousands have tried this since advent of Islam. HE who has lit this truthful religion will protect it.

The Attack On Chrisitianity

I am noticing a lot of the fanatics turning their attention to attacking Christians which leads me to the feeling that this article really worked! I will have these people know that I grew up on more virulent anti-christian anti-semitic propaganda than anything you fundamentalists disguised as socialists can pull out.

And look at me today!

There is no stopping the truth for the truth will set you free!


Regarding Mr. Sattar

``Shiraz dude … a few rambling, off-topic thoughts …"#136 by sattar2 on September 14, 2004 5:13pm PT

I have always wanted to write like that in public! unfotunately the abuse one recieves by simply writing the bland stuff is enough to cause one to attempt a more ``subtle`` approach to informing my beloved dwellers of the Land of the Pure (thank goodness! never apprecited it before but what a beautiful name it is and what a great destiny our people have in front of them!).

Wow! I am honored to have someone like you write. And these are not just words but consolation in words that could have only been transmitted from outer space!

I am indifferent to Sinatra (I think that is worse than despising a person, I think) and though there was a time when I admired and adored Wilde I have now begun to observe with great alarm that he Wilde lived my life a few hundred years ago (with the exception of that wit thing topped with that homosexuality).

Why have I not read your responses before ? I guess it takes a crucifixion to galvanize and ferret out the cool Pakistanis!

As for looks department, there is so much neurosis there that it will take me a few years to expurgate most of them.

More commentary and analysis and interpretation sir! both you and HamidM are just fabulous characters :)

Shiraz dude … a few rambling, off-topic thoughts …

… apparently a photograph of yours is floating around in cyberspace … and the word has it that you are one ugly sob … Don’t take literally what hamidm wrote … he’s a bit of a sufi … and at times means the opposite of what he writes …

… but don’t let this bother you … history of mankind is shaped by men who had atrocious looks … and an equally repugnant fashion sense … there was picasso, gandhi, churchill, einstein, napoleon, alexander, eisenhower … all were butt-ugly men who could not seduce a whore even with crisp, hard cash in their pockets. On the other hand, the pretty boys usually end up in b-movies … if not porn flicks … or grow old responding to classifieds placed by equally hopeless women in sunday personals … (seems like everyone nowadays is looking for a soul mate … wtf does that mean anyway …? )

… as for chicks who blew you off … they are probably in for a rude awakening later in life. Usually they go through this phase early on … but most quickly get out of it, become highly proficient in the abstract science of social mathematics … and start indexing potential mates on basis of their earning potential … and the rest is good ol’ fashioned darwinian evolution. The ones worth pursuing are turned on more by confidence and a worldly outlook … mixed with occasional flirtatiousness (which I think is a measure of a man`s type-s sperm count). We fondly talk about romeo and juliet … probably because they never got married … or their lives would have become endless bickering over insurance premiums and grocery bills. I don’t think romeo could do a day’s worth of work in an entire lifetime … the guy was a fu@king moron … and I can’t believe Shakespeare’s gotten away with it for so long ...

... some chicks wait for a shinny, faggoty-assed tom cruise look-alike soul mate (… here we go again …) … but start kissing frogs as age catches on (o`boy ... and you think the economy is sagging ...). And if by chance they do find some smoothed-skin, shinny pursuer … after moving-in or marriage he turns into yet another abusive, chauvinist, jerk. That pretty much sums it up. It’s the same all over the tv and the papers … and among my colleagues and neighbors … white, yellow, or brown. God is a clever architect and has put everything in a fine balance … go over the limit and inevitably your butt will get kicked rotten …

… so dude … history, evolution, and genetics are on your side … but first, get somewhere in life … and all along listen to sinatra, read oscar wilde ... and dance like no one’s watching … and if this bothers anyone ... tell`em plainly to shove it … and you’ll do just fine …


PS: I am too lazy to go back and check ... but if I misunderstood the photograph comments, kindly disregard this post ...

And now from a Bible-Rifle mafia-boss himself. Nothing has changed. The thugs are still trying to get footholds among the superior civilisations of Sudan, Rwanda, Congo & Sierra Leone.

Expose them, hound them , shun them.

Promote, propagate, and publicise.

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The White Man`s Duty

The American Missionary 53 (July 1899).

In the poem of Mr. Kipling which so stirred our hearts a few months ago a large and fundamental truth is expressed. The white man has a burden to bear. There are and always have been in the ethnological classifications dominant and subordinate races. Islands and even continents bear witness to this fact. Not the most fertile nor the most comfortably situated nations have led in the civilization of the world. Africa is favored with a soil, with geographical, topographical and climatic conditions which might be supposed most favorable to make its people one of the prominent forces in the civilization and progress of the world. It was not the appointment of providence or nature but the character of the people themselves which has kept them a prey of other peoples and races. They are not recognized as a real element in the national forces of the world. They have no literature. Their language is crude and imperfect. Their condition is hardly worthy the name of civilization. That this is true no one can question. A subordinate and not a dominant race occupy this great, rich continent. The same is true of other regions of the world. We are bound, if we are true to the fact, to recognize that there are dominant and subordinate races.

The dominant, which is substantially the white race, has the burden to sustain of bringing civilization and regenerating forces to bear upon the needy races. This is properly the white man`s burden. But in a sense it is a negative. He bears that which is imposed upon him by the very conditions of race peculiarity. He has more than simply a burden to bear. There is the white man`s duty as truly as the white man`s burden. His responsibilities are aggressive and positive and not simply negative and submissive.

In the alarming condition of our own country, especially in the Southern states, the Duty of the white man is written in the imperative. The work of the American Missionary Association, through its schools and churches and army of consecrated missionaries, has always been the elevation of the needy peoples among whom the work has been carried on. The agitation of political, social and even religious questions had not been the object of its effort. Nor is this the object today. The work would fail were this its object. The undeveloped races must become capable of holding their places in the competition with the dominant race as races, and not simply in individual cases, before they can attain this position of equality. The work lies with the depressed and undeveloped peoples primarily. Higher ideals, physical, intellectual and moral, must be established. But, notwithstanding this, the white man must face his own duties and accomplish his own work. The white man`s duty includes, in the first place, self-control. The heinous crimes committed by Negroes in the South, or alleged to have been committed, are crimes that should receive the severest punishment of the law. If law is inadequate, the white man holds it in his power to correct this law and make it adequate. The brutal lynchings, which are in themselves a violation of law, are only a stimulus to the Negro to further violence. The white man`s duty involves self-control. This he seems utterly incapable of in the South. Not only does he wreck vengeance on Negroes who are accused of crimes but upon neighboring white men who dare to stand for the legal punishment of crime. It is not that this course on the part of the dominant race is bringing discredit and disgrace upon us in all the nations of the world. This is unfortunate in itself, but it is not the primary evil. The fundamental trouble is that the dominant race is proving by these outrages that it lacks the very element of self-control which it demands of the other race. These crimes of the white man are the most discouraging phenomena of this century. They show that even with his boasted superiority and advanced civilization he has attained scarcely to the self-control of a savage. If crimes similar to those that are committed in the South were committed by the Indians of the prairie, it would be deemed sufficient for the wiping out of a while tribe. But how much greater is the disgrace, the shame, the crime, when these outrages are committed by the white race, who should be the dominant factor of civilization!

The white man`s duty also involves the considerate treatment of a weaker people. The undeveloped condition of the Negroes of the South results largely from the white man`s neglect. He has deprived the black man of privileges that he might use him to better advantages for himself. The inevitable fruits of years of subjection in slavery, when the race was kept in enforced ignorance, are being reaped in the harvest of ignorance and lawlessness on the part of the Negro today. It is the white man`s duty to educate and elevate those whom he has in the past robbed of natural privileges. It is not simply a burden thrown upon him which he must passively bear. It is a stern duty, for the accomplishment of which he must gird himself. Efforts should not be lessened but multiplied all over the South for the education and elevation of the subordinate races. It is the white man`s duty and he fails not in philanthropy but in meeting the just demands of human society upon himself, if he does not accomplish this. It is not whether the black man shall meet his opportunity and be qualified to meet his responsibility, but whether the white man meets his opportunity and is qualified for his responsibility. The disgrace falls today not upon the black man but upon the white citizenship of the South. The white man`s duty is at once to exercise self-control on his own part and to demand the exercise of the same on the part of other white men so that law shall be administered by courts and not by mobs. It is not a question of the innocence or guilt of those who are accused by mob violence. The disgrace and dishonor is upon the dominant race of America in view of these brutal outrages of the South. Every patriotic American ought so far as possible to utter his protest against the feebleness of a civilization that cannot hold the stronger and more intelligent element within the confines of the law.

---

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[ No wonder there is so much emphasis on ``education`` rather than on Character.]

`` MAULANA Sattar Edhi no no, Hakim Saeed No NO but drooling-dog Musharraf & Shaukat Aziz yes yes: ``They are educated, they know how to take orders; evry dog knows that to fetch the ball; the dog understands ENGLISH. The mullah cannot understand this``

[ Luckily the mullah is NOT `educated`]

The Bible-Rifle missionary-mafia must be exposed:

This is what a hindu from India writes:( If a muslim wrote this , the godfathers would raise hell)

Expose them, hound them, shun them.

promote, propagate, and publicise the activities of these thugs in your neighborhood.

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Indians Against Christian Aggression

Christians have become a threat to our way of life

March 29, 2004, 3:34 pm

N.KRISHNA

Our houses are being targeted in various ways. Only last year when my aunty had admitted her son in UK, she was approached by the missionaries in UK and they found out all the family details and wanted to conduct a prayer for the recovery of her son in the house of her daughter in Trivandrum. Within few hours, christian nurses from some of the hospitals assembled at their house in Trivandrum. Another family in Trivandrum whose son was somewhat mentally unstable was converted to Christianity few years back. In Mumbai one Thomas is trying to convert even prostitutes in the red light area around Kamathipura which is widely reported in the media.

Never in my life I was offended like when two tribal ladies have landed in my house immediately after I came to live in Hyderabad. Christians are no more targeting the illiterate or Tribals. Every Hindu house is under threat from these Christian missionary terrorists. I would like to live in my house in India without being targeted by the Christians.

It is not for charity Christians are running hospitals and educational institutions. It is the money-making racket. My relatives` child put in a Bangalore christian school comes home and trying to pray in front of the cross. This is what is going on in the schools. Christians are much more of a terrorist than the Muslims is my experience. Christians and Hindus are not the same. Christians have destroyed various ethnic cultures of the world. Christians have killed in the name of religion.

Everything about Christianity is based on fraud, from mother Teresa`s miracle to the stealing of various festivals from other pagan religions. Time the government declared that all conversions are illegal and the church should not get involved in politics. Christians in the Gulf are working as agents of Muslim terrorists for handling their money. Christians are like a Trojan Horse in India trying to destroy our culture.

#123: Ms.ZahraJ,

Honestly speaking, if you take care to re read my previous interact, you will realise that i am not obsessed with the nick/id etc and that the bulk of my argument dealt with nothing about the id in itself.

Although, i do admit that it was triggered by an explanation of the Id itself, by the author of the article.

Furthermore, i have no problem and have enough guts to declare that indeed i am the One, who did not appreciate his previous article. I changed the Id long before this current article was posted for personal reasons.

However, i certainly am not the one who posted his pic and i thorougly disapproved of it myself . I respect every ones privacy and would like mine to be respected too.

Moreover, i have no personal grudges against the author simply because i do not know him personally and vice versa. my arguments did not flow from the ``personal is political`` ideology.

I voiced out my opinion exactly the same way as you do. I think that i do have the right to do that, don`t i ?

Kind regards.

# 131

I am thoroughly amused. I have been watching Yoginder Sikand`s antics for sometime. It surprised me that `secular` Hindus had been so completely taken in by this die-hard Islamist. But I reasoned that if Hindus didn`t care about unmasking Islamist thugs like Yoginder Sikand, why should I exert myself?

But now this Islamist fanatic has begun to reinvent the truth against Christians. If his followers like Echoboom persist in their ways, Yoginder Sikands` `secular` empire will come crashing down.

Please publicise, promote, propagate this news to Yoginder Sikand. :)

Muslims! watch out for these evil-agencies for western thugs amongst you. Expose them , hound them, drive them out from amongst you. what a bunch of thugs are these. Deserted and desolate churches at home, and trying to save-souls to enslave them into the westernish-evils

How shocking indeed! Muslims seldom pay attention to these wretched do-gooders.

Publicise, promote, propagate this article please.

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The Evangelical Challenge: A New Face of Western Imperialism

Yoginder Sikand.

Some months ago I wrote an article on western Christian evangelical groups active in various Muslim countries, pointing out how many of them were actively working for promoting the strategic interests of Western governments, particularly the United States. I had been careful to buttress my arguments with ample quotations from Christian sources themselves so as not to appear to be making any unsubstantiated claims. I sent the article to several Muslim magazines, websites and Internet discussion groups, expecting it to raise some discussion of the issue in Muslim circles. To my surprise, while almost no Muslim readers got back to me about the article, I received several letters and emails from angry Christian evangelicals, almost all of them American and working among Muslim communities in South Asia, protesting that I had unfairly tarnished their image. Yes, they admitted, they did believe that the way to heaven was through Jesus alone. Without accepting him as ‘personal saviour’, they stressed, no one could hope to escape eternal damnation in hell. But, they protested, despite their firm faith in the exclusiveness of Christianity, they were engaged in doing ‘good’ for the Muslims they were working among. They were supplying them free education, and medical help, they said. They were running scores of economic development project to help ‘uplift’ the poor, they argued. Hence, they insisted, I had presented a completely one-sided picture of Christian evangelism among Muslims, ignoring the many ‘positive’ contributions that the missionaries were apparently making.

The angry response from evangelical Christians to my article prompted me to delve further into the history and broader agenda of European and American Christian missionaries working among non-Christian, particularly Muslim, peoples. A random search on the Internet revealed to me the existence of a vast, well-organised network of institutions I never knew existed, devoted specifically to missionary work among Muslims. These include academic institutes, publishing houses, radio and television stations, medical missions, centres for training missionaries and so on, all seemingly generously funded and, for the most part, located in western Europe and the United States. As they described themselves and their mission, they all seemed to be fired by a passionate belief in Christianity as the only road to salvation, and Islam, as well as other faiths, as paths to perdition in hell. Some of them described Islam as nothing less than a Satanic invention.

As many critics, including several Christians themselves, have pointed out, the fiery zeal that driveswhite Christian evangelicals to swarm to the ‘Third World’, including Muslim countries, in a desperate bid to save ‘lost’ souls reflects the continuing hold of the nineteenth century European imperialist discourse that saw ‘natives’ as beyond the pale of civilization. Today, when Christianity is almost dead in the West, how does one explain the rush of American and European evangelicals to the ‘Third World’? Quite obviously this has little or nothing to do with mere pious intentions, for the decline of religion is far from apparent in the West than in the rest of the world, making it more of an urgent imperative for missionaries to work in the West than elsewhere. Thus, one has to turn to other factors to explain this seeming paradox. From a close examination of the agenda of evangelical groups in the ‘Third World’ it appears that, as a whole, Christian fundamentalism in our part of the world is no simple religious mission. As is widely believed, many evangelical groups working in the ‘Third World’ are simply fronts for Western agencies and governments, helping to promote their vested interests and strategic goals. This is most readily apparent from the cozy relationship between Christian fundamentalists and the current Bush administration. Right-wing American Christian groups are known to be sources of immense financial support to Israel. They are also vociferous backers of America’s imperialist designs on the Muslim world, seeing these as a divinely mandated crusade against the forces of ‘evil’.

My own discomfort about western Christian evangelicals were further confirmed when, recently, I came across a fascinating book titled ‘Mission, Myth and Money in a Multicoloured World’, authored by a certain Jules Gomes. Gomes is apparently a leading Indian Christian scholar, a member of the teaching faculty at one of the largest Protestant seminaries in India, the United Theological College at Bangalore. Author of several books, he is presently a research scholar at the University of Cambridge. In this insightful book Gomes describes in detail the dark and little-known world of Western evangelicals who see themselves as entrusted with the burdensome task of bringing the ‘light’ of Christianity to the ‘benighted’ non-white world.

Gomes tells us that many white right-wing Christian evangelicals whom he has interacted with closely for many years see America as God’s chosen nation, capitalism as ‘sacrosanct’, globalisation (a euphemism for American imperialism) as a ‘blessing’, the carpet bombing of Afghanistan as ‘necessary’, the war on Iraq as a ‘crusade’ and the American flag as a ‘quasi-religious icon’. In short, he says, he has discovered, much to his dismay, that ‘the western church [is] replicating the imperialistic behaviour of the western world’. The only difference now is, he writes, that the centre of imperialism, economic, cultural and political, has shifted from Europe to America. Today, America leads the world in sending out missionaries to other lands. In 2002, America is said to have sent out 60,200 missionaries to 220 countries in 2001. ‘Coca-Colonisation’, as Gomes describes American imperialism, thus goes hand in hand with Christianisation.

Gomes writes that the close alliance between the Christian rightwing and American imperialism is not a new phenomenon, although the bond seems to have become even closer in recent times. As early as 1854, he tells us, a book appeared in America under the revealing, though clumsy, title of ‘Armageddon: Or, The Existence […] of the United States Foretold in the Bible, Its […] Expansion into the Millennial Republic, and Its Dominion Over the Whole World’. Two decades later, in 1885 another tract, ‘Our Country’, was published, that claimed that America had attained the ‘highest degree of Anglo-Saxonism and true Christianity’ and that God had bestowed upon it the task of Christianising and ‘civilising’ the whole world.

While white racism, American imperialism and evangelical Christianity thus have a long history of mutual collaboration, Gomes writes that the rise of America as the global centre of right-wing Christian evangelism is largely a post-Cold War phenomenon. He argues that in the aftermath of World War II, America deliberately sought to promote right-wing Christian missionary groups in other countries, particularly in the ‘Third World’, in order to combat the ideological challenge of communism and anti-imperialist nationalism. These Christian groups also served to promote American interests abroad. Several of them received generous funding from far-right American government lobbies, CIA front organizations, American big business and right-wing think tanks. Many missionaries were appointed as sources of vital information for the CIA, and were used to bolster American hegemony by indoctrination and spreading American propaganda. As Sara Diamond writes in her ‘Spiritual Warfare: The Politics of the Christian Right’, these Christian groups eagerly sought to promote ‘dependence on the world leadership […] of the United States’. For them, missionary work was simply a means ‘to organize social movements and development programs favourable to US political and economic priorities’.

Contrary to the image of evangelical missionaries as pious, God-fearing do-gooders that they are so concerned to portray, Gomes shows how many of them have been involved in murky deals, working closely with American imperialist organizations. In 1975, the journal ‘Christianity Today’ admitted that large numbers of both Protestant and Catholic missionaries had provided information to the American intelligence authorities. In 1996, the ‘Washington Post’ reported that CIA officials admitted the existence of a ‘controversial loophole’ that permits the CIA to recruit ‘American journalists as agents, use newsgathering organizations as cover and [employ] clerics or missionaries for clandestine work overseas’. Gomes provides several examples of the active role of missionaries working in

Gomes contends that American evangelicals today are one of the fiercest supporters of Israel, seeing Islam as their greatest ideological enemy. Several Christian fundamentalist groups send huge sums of money to Israel, including to various fiercely Zionist Jewish organizations. The close collaboration between right-wing Christian groups in America and world Zionism, Gomes says, is clearly suggested by the fact that when the Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu visited Washington in January 1998, his first meeting was not with the American President, but, instead, with the leading Christian evangelist Jerry Falwell and more than a thousand Christian fundamentalists. At the meeting he was hailed as ‘the Ronald Reagan of Israel’, and Falwell promised to contact more than 200,000 Christian pastors, asking them to ‘tell President Clinton to refrain from putting pressure on Israel’. The unrelenting hostility of many American Christian groups towards Islam and Muslims is clearly apparent in their passionate endorsement of recent America’s military strikes against Muslim countries. Thus, Gomes writes, let alone the Protestant fundamentalists, even the apparently somewhat less extreme US Catholic bishops blessed the American invasion of Afghanistan. The evangelicals are now among the most fervent supporters of the American invasion and occupation of Iraq.

To come back to where I started, I do not wish to tar all evangelicals with the same brush, for surely there must be noble souls among them as well. However, taken as a whole, the evangelical project, I would still insist, constitutes a major menace, a thinly veiled guise for western imperialism, and a powerful threat to religious and cultural communities in the ‘Third World’

Zahra J : I like your STYLE

However, you may applaud A.Shiraz for his writing style because you think it provokes reactions. If you read my previous posts, I have mentioned the same thing.....YET ITS NOT NECCESSARILY HIS WRITING STYLE, ITS THE TOPIC, anyone can stir up a little controversy by being one sided and bigoted. I can write an article on Jesus Christ, condemn him, abuse and curse him and if I post it on the Catholic forum - you can bet your socks ill get some reactions. Like I said, I pity A.Shiraz, because at the end of the day some of the points he is trying to make (are valid) - he looses the reader because of his tunnel vision. Such a writer can neither be called talented or serious. I think theres a point to writing, do you see where Im coming from??

but I agree with the rest of your post - so thanks for some great advice doctor Z.

Vertex: I did not need any blessing from you on what I have pointed out. I dislike those with agendas and hanky panky ways of expression. I do not fully agree with the writer on any of his works, but I definitely appreciate his authentic work. His approach certainly ``lacks`` the hanky panky ways of some interactors on board, the ridiculous sugar coating of some of the jihadis, the narrow-mindedness of the fanatics ... oh lest I forget, the convoluted arguments of the seculars.

On a relatively calmer note: I hope you are doing well.

Take Care :)

Shia Baiting

#84 by MQMPower on September 10, 2004 6:19am PT

There are Shia haters abundant in Pakistan and on Chowk but that is the case with most Sunni Muslims. It is good to have you come here and talk about the Shiite faith, however do remember that Sunnis will be the first to subvert and destroy your people as they have done historically and they continue to do today in Sunni Islamic Pakistan.

The Stink That Attracts Ex Cons To Islam
Do you realize that you could have taken a whole new angle by fanning the disturbingly numerous child abuse scandals that the Catholic Church has faced in the recent years #38 by seinfeld on September 8, 2004 11:38am PT

In case you could not tell this is not about a Catholic church. I criticize the Catholic Church as much as if not more than Islam.

While you have your own take on the stink that you sensed in the mosques that you have been to, that “stink” is exactly what has attracted many people towards Islam.#38 by seinfeld on September 8, 2004 11:38am PT

You have to be kidding me! but this is so true! In prisons white felons go for Nazism and White Supremacist groups while Black criminals go for Islam. If it ain`t the stench that attracts them to Islam, I don`t know what it is.

However there are some of us who are educated, civilized and upright, law abiding citizens who just happened to be born into Islam. We were not given an option really. It is to those people that I say ``Go out and find your heaven, explore! be brave! You are intelligent and you are worth it!``

Meanwhile you and your fundamentalist friends may feel free to enjoy each others` stink. If you can`t get enough of it you may go the Gyms and smell other people`s jocks (get high on spirituality, Islamic style!) but do remember to watch out for those body builders, if they catch you smelling their soiled underwear you are going to wish the Americans were kicking your arse again. But while you are at it close the windows of your dens of terrorism, male chauvinism and homosexuality which you call your houses of worship.

May moderate Muslims be free of such associations. May moderate Muslims be free of whatever image the mosque has in the rest of the world.

Its the Quality NOT the Quantity
Anyway, may be we should forgive that stinky guy in the mosque. Being the hourly-rate kind of a guy that he is, chances are that he didn’t have the time and resources to “drive” home and take a shower for the three prayer times that fell during his long and hard work-day digging the ditch.#38 by seinfeld on September 8, 2004 11:38am PT

In essence, all the relatively poor people, sweating but trying to earn a living. Let us assume that during their work, they hear the call for prayer. What do you suggest they do? With no public baths in sight in Pakistan, should they go, miles way to their home to take a bath first? What if no bathing facilities are available in the mosque and all they can do, is perform their required and refreshing wudu? What do you suggest then? #96 by ELUSIVE on September 10, 2004 8:50pm PT


What is better, to show up to greet your God sweating and smelling of urine or to show up in a state of cleanliness?

The frequency of Islamic prayers is such that I am amazed Muslims get the time to go to the bathroom and finish their daily business. If such people heard the prayer call in the middle of their business I bet you would be ok if they marched into the mosque soiled and stinking?

That is exactly the condition of atleast 1 in 15 Muslim men who show up at the mosques - unless you are near a Pathan colony then the percentage of soiled and stinking men shoots up astronomically.

Praying at a mosque is a communal experience. You are standing shoulder to shoulder with another human being. When you raise your arms you are exposing your armpits in all its deodrant-less glory! When you are bending over and your Kameez and Shalwar flutters you are fluttering the contents of your genitalia in plain view of people behind you who are bending straight into the line of sight of your genitalia.

If you must pray 5 times a day and you stink, can you not do it in private? Must you flaunt your piety and your unhygenic condition in front of 500 other innocent, washed and clean people? Would you rather not pray to your God in a condition of good quality rather than unclean and copiously stinking quantity?

But the trouble is you cannot do that. Why? because the Imams and the Mullahs will not let you do that. Why? Because the Imam would rather have a stinking, mindless laborer firing the guns for his cause than some educated, well dressed and clean shaven man. The clean shaven worldly man would find it easier to pay the Chanda (alms) when there is a crazed bearded fanatic threatening to blow himself up at his children`s schools.

Its not like the Imams and Mullahs don`t try to recruit intelligent people but the civilized and educated people rarely have time to waste on 5 times prayers.

But even absentee Muslims are good news for Mullahs because the more you miss the prayers the more Mullahs can make you feel guilty about it and the more money they can extort from you.

``Brother, so how many prayers you did Qadha? How many prayers you missed? You would rather be a doctor than pray five times a day``.

The poor mindless Muslim Doctor is ofcourse thinking ``Yes, maybe I am bad! so what if I saved the life of 50 people that day, I missed my prayers man! maybe I should give all my salary to the Islamic Jihad!`` You are being taken for a ride and your degrees are worthless in the face of this immense brainwashing!

But if you are a rational and clear headed man with good western education in you, you will say ``There is a time for everything and TOO MUCH of anything is bad! so I will go maybe once a week or even once a year but when I go I wish for quality of experience , and I shall not whore away my spirituality for cheap, two minute prayers at rapid fire frequencies``.

What effect do 5 times prayers have on Muslims? It only solidifies their mental brainwashing but the spiritual experience is deadened and cheapened because Muslims start to pray like ``Murghas`` (Cocks and Hens) who do things mindlessly and mechanically and quickly as if they have to get rid of a task and get back to their work.

Muslims when they are praying act is if they are not in the presance of God but praying by a timer. Why will they not pray in a staccato rapid fire way? When you cheapen the experience of appearing before God it shows in your actions. You may boast that you pray five times a day but its a mindless ritual to you and most Muslims (With the exception of Osama Bin Ladin and look where 5 times a day has gotten him!) How many of you can FEEL the experience of praying at 5 in the morning (IF you can even get up in the morning)? How many of you can really connect with your God while you rattle off words in a language you don`t even understand? Do you realize that praying is NOT a drill or an obligation.

Instead you make excuses on behalf of people who stink and have poor hygiene! Is there no end to your excuses? You would rather dive into a pile of shi_te than have the courage to explore and see what else is out there, right?

Well go ahead and meet your stinking end.

Culture Is NOT Your Race

In your fancy of the English, the Protestant ethic, Capitalism and of course westernization, you have unfortunately forgotten your very roots. .. One does not become white, if they paint their faces white. One does not become protestant by a singular or a few visits to a church.#121 by ELUSIVE on September 13, 2004 1:40pm PT

One may not change their race (atleast until medical science advances enough to allow us to do that) but one may change one`s culture.

You can speak English even if you have never seen England. You may adopt the Protestant Ethic (as the South Koreans have) even if you are unrelated to Martin Luther or King Henry VIII. One may be a Capitalist even if one is born into a ``spiritual`` Hindu family. One may become westernized even if one is born and raised in Pakistan.

People who are ``ethno centric`` and who claim that adopting western ideals of freedom, equality and justice is ``forgetting ones roots/identity/race`` are in my opinion impeding the progress of their own people. They are identifying values that are good and noble with ``whiteness`` . It is racist to identify words like ``We the people consider all people are created equal`` as something white and un-Pakistani or un-Brown. It is racist to say that learning English or ``western science`` is Un Islamic or un-Brown (like the people who ridiculed Sir Syed Ahmed Khan). It is racist to say that Pakistanis cannot be Protestants or Capitalists. It is wrong to say that Pakistanis cannot aspire to the values that the Swedes or the British hold dear.

Muslims claim ``Islam about Equality brother poor man pray shoulder to shoulder with rich man`` but they forget the forgotten and huddled masses of suffering women who are never there by the side of their men when praying. Your claims and your lies will not stand in front of those who have seen that there is something better out there! That is why I urge all of you to be brave and shrug all those fears implanted in you of Christians and Jews.

Be brave and see how Protestants in England and America live and eat and behave and you will astonished! You will see why Christians and Protestants are foremost in the world! You will see why God has blessed them and why Muslims live under this curse ... be brave! go out there and explore with a open and loving heart... what have you got to lose ? a few brown friends who think its ``un Islamic`` to hold the hands of a woman but perfectly Ok to hold the hand of a member of your own gender? Forget the haters!

Zahra,

If you don`t like some of the commentary, then follow your own advice and don`t read them. This one included. This article was designed to be inflammatory, and if your too self absorbed to see that, then let others who recognize that vent. Rebuking the author and his attitude is contributing to the board...

zahraj - you wrote ``It seems that interactors waste more bandwidth on Chowk in ridiculing others` points than contributing anything.``

That makes it two of us. You don`t have to ``waste more bandwidth on Chowk in reidiculing others` points`` either, Ms. ZahraJ ;)

But aside from this article, how are you doing? I like your brazen style. There are only a few Pakistani girls who can be this in-your-face. And I like it. I may not agree with your point of view, but I appreciate your tenacity in defending yours. Keep up the good work.

Elusive - you should interact more often. You write well.

This article captures a few points very well but it adds a few elements that can create havoc amongst the traditionalists. Everyone wants to see his or her religion, faith, culture, belief and life through a certain lens. For some there is no need for a social center; for others there is definite need. For some, belonging to a certain sect means that they need to consider themselves martyrs for entering their own mosques. For others their place of worship offers them tremendous opportunity to grow and connect with like-minded individuals.

I am reminded of a dear friend and colleague with a German Irish background. He used to attend the Unitarian Universalists` Church on a frequent basis. My friend met his wife at that church. As I attended his wedding ceremony(after 2 years from the day they met at the church), the pastor of that church was also present and gave a very nice speech introducing the couple. It was a very tight and close-knit gathering of family and friends. And there was something very serene and positive in the air. During the brief introduction of the bride and the bridegroom, the pastor expressed his sentiments on how he felt when he saw both of them in his church on their first day. It was simple, sweet and beautiful. No hotchpotch and loud behavior. I do not want to leave it open ended. I have to add my little bit on the happily ever after piece...This couple is one of the very few couples I have come across in my life who complied with the concept of “meant for each other”.

#121: Rather than focusing so much on ids and nicks, why not look into the thoughts and ideas if you are truly into thoughts and ideas. If you are into appreciating ids and highlighting their uniqueness then it may make sense to spell out your own nick and the id behind it. Could it be that you are the woman who was writing unendingly long posts on Shiraz`s previous article or you are the one who was busy posting his picture? It seems that you are nursing some grudges from his past article. I think it`s ridiculous to use discussion boards to address personal grudges. My 5 cents.

#120: Instead of wasting your breath, why do not save yourself from reading the writer`s content. No one is obligated to comment on each and every article, memoir, travelogue, feature, fictional and non-fictional stuff. It seems that interactors waste more bandwidth on Chowk in ridiculing others` points than contributing anything. Well, it certainly takes some creativity, style and content to provoke fellow human beings. The current writer deserves a big applause for that.

Respected author ( A.Shiraz a.k.a. Solitude a.k.a. Emanicipator),

In your fancy of the English, the Protestant ethic, Capitalism and of course westernization, you have unfortunately forgotten your very roots. Your posts portray you as a very confused person and you are confusing others too by sending mixed signals. You are trying to create a perfect race according to your own standards. One does not become white, if they paint their faces white. One does not become protestant by a singular or a few visits to a church. One does not become fashionable in the right sense by wearing the “in” clothes without any real sense of it. One does not even become intellectual by carrying a few classic books in their back pack. A Chinese can not wake up tomorrow and declare himself to be an African. He will still remain a Chinese.

You are what you are, no matter how hard you try to portray yourself as belonging to a different race.

You wrote the following in your interact:

“We will embrace the North Western European ideals, the lessons of the reformation, and the laws of England, the constitution of the US, the French Rights of Man, and the spirit of the Scandinavians, the Saxons and the Anglo Americans. We will rejoice in English and English customs and make it our own as we have begun to do today. We will take the values of the Anglo Protestants uncorrupted by French Catholic decadence and we will embrace the Protestant work ethic and we shall join the ranks of the first world! “

The first question is who exactly are the “We” that you refer to? The, “We” that you refer to, are people who have no personality, heritage, culture, class, religion, standards of their own. The “We”, you refer to has borrowed everything from others and thrown all that it possessed as a nation into the garbage can. The “We” relishes and rejoices customs of another culture and plays a deaf ear to the culture of their very roots.

(I hope that you understood what I tried to explain in my earlier posts, with regards to clean mosques still existing with an educated atmosphere).

The second question is of course what will be the position of these people who have forgotten their very roots and try to incorporate the foreign customs “Fully” into their lives, in the eyes of others? I may be wrong, but such a group of people will never be respected because they could never appreciate their own roots and culture. These are the people who will eventually be termed as “wannabe’s”.

They will not be respected because instead of helping to remove all the negative features in their culture, and wrong interpretations of religion and instead of helping to eradicate the negative customs, they instead decided to take the most easy way out.

For example, If some negative incident happened to them in a mosque, they do not try to remove the problem. They instead run from the problem. They did not stand up and say, “Qari, Saheb, I would like to get all the carpets washed of the “mosque” or “I would like to collect and donate money for the construction of new bathing rooms and employment of a full time sweeper for the mosque.” They do not give the children attending the mosque enough confidence or trust to complain against molesters or try to reach an agreement with the community attending the mosque to pray to come up with a solution to tackle this heinous act. Of course that would require too much time and effort and could also be taxing on the wallet.

But they take the easy way out. They decide to run. They decide to switch religions, or become atheists or eradicate the celebration of certain customs from their life. Isn’t that easier? Then of course they decide a short story about it. They decide to preach that every one should take the easy way out like them.

Well, respected author, not all people are like you. Some us decide to take the difficult way and some us won’t even mind dying fighting than running from our own problems. I really do not mean to be cruel or harsh, but If Pakistani’s are backwards, then it is only because of people like you; people who run from the problems and do not solve it; people who do not try to see the larger picture; people who can only see faults and never the advantages and merits associated.

Some of are already emancipated. It is, infact you who needs to put off the chains you have fastened around your brain.


A Vision

After reading your posts I am becoming increasingly thankful that not all Pakistanis chose to take the path you have taken. Some indeed “have noble hearts and if only your noble hearts will go forth with courage “ and try their best to eradicate the negative aspects and find solutions to the prevalent problems, rather than running away from them, then only the over all state of the Muslims and Pakistani’s will improve.

If some fellow Muslims behave selfish and confused with their own identity and run, then try to help them and make them realize that running away from the problem is not in itself a solution.

We will chose good values and we will befriend all those who are not ashamed of being themselves, and value the “noble folk” who strived to improve the tarnished image of Islam and worked hard to remove all faults prevalent; and those who had the courage to be true to their roots, because respect of one’s own culture and roots is a “virtue”.

---

My sincere gratitude and thanks to all those Proud Muslims who appreciated my previous interact.

---

Kind regards.

Re ELUSIVE # 87
Wonderful interact, infact, and much to my delight, Solitude has not yet responded. I wonder whats going through his mind now.....

A. Shiraz, you have the nerve to accuse people of attacking you personally, well let me put it to you this way, when people write articles that are one sided, hostile and when you launch a personal attack on people`s faith - then this is what you should expect. People are going to wonder where the hell youre coming from, because quite frankly, if you wanted to have an educated discussion - then you would write like an educated man, not like a psychopath on a mission. I really and truly pity you, because at the end of the day, your writing means little, because you fail to bring across your points to the average reader. The only satisfaction you can get is seeing angry comments and disbelief as to the cowboy like strategy you have off expressing your views. How unfortunate!

If places of worship were clubs-

Churches- Built to intimidate, soothing piano bar ambience, larger-than-life, great music, don`t let your kids into the DJ`s booth.
Mosques- Gaudy, everyone wearing too much perfume, slightly smelly, they should allow more women in there. Loyal clientele, outsiders not welcome.
Mandirs- Too much noise, gulp your drink and run, no chance of having a decent conversation, but if you time it right and have the right company, can be an enjoyable experience.
Fire Temples- Members only. Don`t die in there, they feed you to the birds.
Gurudwaras- Good ambience. Great food. Used to be haunted by shady elements but now clean. Nice chicks.

Also, only learned men and women should be allowed to lead the prayers. The ones who look like a daku or a cave-man ought to be discouraged. Those imams and preachers are a definite risk to Islam. #103 by ZahraJ on September 11, 2004 2:04pm PT

I think this should be put up as ``qoute of the day``. I was laughing hard as I reached the ``daku`` part of the comment.

We have women capable of great wonder and sweetness in our nation. If only we would appreciate them like the Englishman respects, defers and appreciates women.

A VISION

After reading your posts I am becoming increasingly convinced that Pakistanis have noble hearts and if only your noble hearts will go forth with courage and explore what else is out there you will be happier. You don`t have to put up with anything!

If Islam annoys and saddens you and your fellow Muslims behave like Janitors, you don`t have to put up with them. Explore and reach out and find a community that meets your standard. Don`t end up with people simply because they are welcoming but find people whose values coincide with yours.

My dear Pakistanis, I envision a day when we will all collectively be westernized and become upholders of the Protestant ethic and Capitalism. We will join the first world as men and women who will put the Arabs, Muslims, Catholics, Jews and the Hindus to shame.

We will embrace the North Western European ideals, the lessons of the reformation, the laws of England, the constitution of the US, the French Rights Of Man, the spirit of the Scandinanvians, the Saxons and the Anglo Americans. We will rejoice in English and English customs and make it our own as we have begun to do today. We will take the values of the Anglo Protestants uncorrupted by French Catholic decadence and we will embrace the Protestant work ethic and we shall join the ranks of the first world!

We will be steadfast allies of the noble British and the Americans and the Europeans and we will be a city on the hill that the Persians, Afghans, Arabs, Hindus, Chinese and Russians will look up to and envy. And then we will tell them all: we chose good values and we befriended the noble and we had the courage to westernize because westernization is a virtue.

# 108
Please refrain from commenting on my posts .... I am not interested in discussing any point with you on this forum or otherwise ...Thanks!

Urstruly & MQMPower:
any system is subject to abuse. Money, Power, and Fame are blessings from Allah-Ta`lla but when misused or abused render any ``constituition`` a travesty of trust & justice.

Our present-day ``democracy``, the ``pragmatic`` and ``convenient`` methods to avoid govt. enforced Zakat, the stampede to seek refugee status by becoming ad-hoc ahmadis, christians, shias, or ``true-lovers``-post-dultery etc etc renders all this discussion futile. How does one make gobar paak?

Any nation which has no character, deserves the leaders who are drooling-dogs, tails awagging yelping in orgasmic ecstacy: `` O master don`t you see how moderate we are now. Our men & women are dying to get screwed thus & your excuse of being tired is not acceptable. We promise to Vana more muslims maee-baap``

The saudi solution how to keep satan happy & still follow ``islam``

# 112
Kindly refrain from commenting on my posts .... I dont want to interact with you on this forum or otherwise ...

Mulla A Shiraz

Sincere advice: Try to get rid of your present and past hang-ups, insecurities and complexes before you make and write such strong opinions ....

according to our resident jihadi and ijthehadi :

``Holy Prophet (pbuh) has guided us that the only differentiation between human beings in the polity is on the basis of belief. The Constitution of Medina tells us that there can be believers and non-believers in a polity. ``

....... ever wonder, ``who was jim crow (pbuh)?``............ now you know the rest of the story !

#102: You are reading things upside down. This article does not belong in an ilog. Your remarks certainly do!

Absence of Love in contemporary Islam

Shiraz.
You have touched upon a very important ``spiritual`` aspect- unfortunately some people think that it concerns outward cleanliness or orderliness. No, the true brotherhood that we miss is the flow of love and affection that one finds amongst the church goers. That is why most of the churches try not to inhibit the spontaneity and flow of love amongst the faithfuls in the name of tradition.
Where is the love towards fellow brother that one should feel when one meets another faithful inside the mosque during prayers?. So, you are likely to come out of church with a profound emotional experience than hatred for other fellow beings.

And does proliferation of churches in Christian faith dilute the basic tenents of Christianity?
I do not think so, on the other hand it ensures that violent strains are checked and kept under control.

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On Mosques vs. Churches: Another very important item that was not addressed. Christians do not bomb their fellow christians in churches. Jews do not attack their own people in synagogues. Muslims become a target in their own mosques. In fact, that`s the best opportunity to get rid of their fellow muslims. There are defintely other kinds of crimes that take place in other places of worship. Killings/bombings are only acceptable in our mosques!

zahraj - you write ``Unfortunately, when it comes to day to day prayers, there are not that many of them with a fine architecture or a decent ambience. Is there a need for more mosques to calm the muslims down and regain the essense of their faith? Certainly!``

Good point. So how much money have you donated or helped raise to bring ambience to your local mosque? Just wondering. Thanks!

Rozaiba. Actually Lot of Ijtehad is going on even on chowk right now.

For example.

#103

Also, only learned men and women should be allowed to lead the prayers. The ones who look like a daku or a cave-man ought to be discouraged. Those imams and preachers are a definite risk to Islam.

Rozaiba # 88

As for your first question “Are there any practical examples you know of based on ijtihad (or fatwas)?” –

As a matter of fact there are millions of examples spread across Muslim world where Ijtehad done by present day ullema have influenced Muslims of today. The most prominent examples are those of Moulana Moududi, Hasanal Banna, and Syed Qutub, whose ijtehad on socio-political issues of today have influenced the Muslims all across the globe. Even those sects and Muslims who do not subscribe to their political philosophy have received guidance from their thinking. Moududi, for example was a very prolific writer. His ijtehad were published regularly (biweekly) in all too famous journal risail-o-misail for decades. Another most famous name is Moulana Shoukat Thanvi whose Behishti Zewar discusses various contemporary issues related to women. Moulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi was also a prolific writer who has written his ijtehad issues in various volumes:

Check this:

http://alashrafia.com/english.html

And also we have Moulana Amjad Ali Quadri who have compiled various ijtehad in his book Bahar-e-Shariat

http://www.dawateislami.net/services/library/books/Bahar/Main%20Files/index.htm

In Pakistan, formally, Islamic Ideological Council, according to the constitution of 1973 is responsible to do ijtehad. But the abysmal condition of legislation in the country for the past 25 years have rendered it ineffective even though their ijtehad on the Zakat and Usher is already bearing results despite of corruption and mismanagement of funds.

Historically, Aurangzeb Alamgir (may God bless his soul) organized the Ijtehad in one of the most famous book in history – Fatawa-e-Alamgiri. These fatawa have served Muslims for centuries and even today Muslim scholars seek guidance from this work. Mind you, Alamgir existed 600 years after Baghdad collapsed at the hands of Mongols. Prior to Alamgir, the works of Mujadid Alif Saani, Shah Abdul Aziz Muhadis Dehlvi and many after them have guided Muslims through out the centuries. The contention that Ijtehad stopped after Mongol invasion is a myth and a vicious lie perpetrated by enemies of Islam.

Your second question is about: “can we say that because of no recognized institutional mechanism - ie clerical class- it was easier for colonial powers to enslave the people?”

There is no mathematical answer to this question. A case can be made in either way. Since in sunni Muslim world (since question is directed this way) there have never been an instance where clergy had political clout, therefore, the only benchmark that we have is to compare it with organized clergy in Catholicism and that in Iran where clergy holds a constitutional position in polity based on their dogma of vilayat-e-faqih. The clergy in Catholicism failed miserably and we know the history very well. WE have yet to see what happens in Iran. In Irraq where Shia clergy is well organized could not save its people from the tyranny of Saddam Hussain but this same clergy has proved to be a formidable enemy to the scourge of American imperialism. But then so is the sunni clergy which is not organized and yet the resistannce in sunni areas started from the mosques. The resistance in these areas is even more lethal than in shia areas.

Personally, I am against any special treatment of any group in constitution; and that includes even the women. Holy Prophet (pbuh) has guided us that the only differentiation between human beings in the polity is on the basis of belief. The Constitution of Medina tells us that there can be believers and non-believers in a polity. Together they form the ummah i.e. the nation. And this nation runs its affairs on the basis of consultation (Shoora) and consensus (Ijma’a). Therefore, in my books clergy has no place in the business of polity.

re: 103
``Is there a need for more mosques to calm the muslims down and regain the essense of their faith? Certainly!``

you must be kidding - if anything, we need fewer mosques, churches and misc. other places which breed nonsense. to paraphrase genghis khan in contemporary terms - what in the hell is wrong with you people - if you really need to talk to the man above - why do it in a specific place - dont you know that this fellow is supposed to be present everywhere at any given time.

re: mqm guy on mutah
prostitution by any other name still remains prostitution - maybe i am missing something or maybe you dont know what you are talking about.

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Solitude:

Without any doubt there is certainly more respect given to the prayer-service and the ambience in a church than in a mosque. This is a very personal observation based on the mosques I have visited in the US. But you need to be reasonable here. There are far more social centers for the christians and the jews than for the muslims in America. For the muslims, mosques are their place of worship and also a place for social activities. Lunch/Dinner is served in the same halls where everyone offers prayers. To top it all, if the management happens to be either indians/pakistanis or bangladeshis they are less concerned about the basic cleanliness and overall ambience of the mosque. You will smell curry and turmeric everywhere. In my experience, any mosque managed and maintained by the middle-easterners, definitely offers a better environment, lectures and educational activities. In those environments, I have also seen worshippers meditating and focusing on strengtening their connection with God. Ironically, there is a lot of emphasis on ``taharat-cleanliness`` in Islam. Many darood-shareef(s) and other prayers require cleanliness of a person and that of the place.

I also agree with you that it is extremely unpleasant to hear the speech of an already agonized preacher or a muezzin. Most of them incite the worshippers than calm them down. Islam does not ask ugly, unhygienic and imbecile men to be at the preacher`s desk. Unfortunately, if you pick any of the recent newspapers, the stories about the imams` of many masjids in the US and the UK make you wonder what the hell is going on. Those imams look like criminals and men out of caves. How the hell can they preach any sane message to their audience?

Someone posted a number of pictures of various mosques. Defintely there are some very pretty mosques on the planet earth. Unfortunately, when it comes to day to day prayers, there are not that many of them with a fine architecture or a decent ambience. Is there a need for more mosques to calm the muslims down and regain the essense of their faith?

Certainly!

Also, only learned men and women should be allowed to lead the prayers. The ones who look like a daku or a cave-man ought to be discouraged. Those imams and preachers are a definite risk to Islam.

Arthur

You are exhibiting a very narrow minded and bigoted behavior from what i read in your article and subsequent postings. Very disappointing. You have so much hate in you towards Islam and anything related to Islam and as such you are exhibitng the same kind of bigotry as Mullah Omar.

You articles and postings are written in bad taste and does not present you as a balanced mature person.

Moreover the way you talk about your looks and apperance sounded very shallow and exhibited some sort of inferiority complex.

Chowk staff
The article belonged to the i-log of the author and not to the fornt page of Chowk. I am surprised how such poorly written articles are making it to the front page.

Very well analysed Muslim prayer.

MQMPower

You have defended and given enough explanations on Mutah in a very dignified manner. However, I don’t think it was necessary. If I were in your place I would have just given the links and other sources for the inquirer to do his own research and not to engage into subsequent discussion where the other gets the chance to criticize, ridicule and question and you on the other hand becomes very defensive. There is no need for it.

Moreover, I do not think that you have enough knowledge to go into the finer details of this subject.

I also have limited knowledge on Mutah. But Mutah makes logical sense to me especially during present times (when the average age of marriage has gone upto 28-30) as it provides the avenue for the youth (especially boys) to engage into sex during their prime years of 17-24/25 without any guilt and remorse. Its healthy and its basic instinct and hence should not be denied. Otherwise it would be inhumane and lead to frustration in the society.

mosques are like caves, they breed terrorists .........

...... that`s what is wrong with mosques .... as houses of worship, or ignorance, they are probably no better or worse than synagogues and churches, other than the fact that most poeple would agree that it is about time that the muslims discovered furniture ............. it is silly and quite painful to be twisting your legs into unnatural knots and flailing on the ground ...... we should leave that to the horrible hindoo yogis and sadhus - let them put dust and ash in their hair and try to levitate in the lotus position !

............. but historically mosques are not simply places of worship, they are dens of conspiracy ......... the plot to destroy all other gods and their houses of worship was hatched in a cave in mecca and moved to a mosque in medina .......... from there the faithful set out to destroy synagogues and churches and temples - places held sacred by people of other faiths ............ the rampage culminated in the destruction of the grand temple of mecca ........other peoples` gods were thrown out into the street and yet another mosque was constructed to appease al-lah ...........they did not even spare his daughters, manat and uzza - such was their maniacal rage .......... takbeer!

......... but all that is ancient history and one can say that the churches and cathedrals in medieval spain were also houses of horrors presided over by ghoulish priests and monks .......... but there is a difference ........ those churches are now simply places of ignorance where fools congregate on sundays to worship at the feet of a man nailed to a cross, and tourists run around during the week taking pictures while pigeons fly around trying to poop on them ............ but not the mosques - they are reverting back to the original model established in medina ............and that, my friends, is the problem .............

Elusive # 96 - Very beautiful, eloquent, intelligent and informative post. It clearly, and very intelligently demonstrated that a person can get his/her point across more effectively through humility, kindness, and without offending anyone. Indeed, such compassionate reasoning is more likely to spark reformation of a person than blatant attacks. Perhaps the best interact on this board. Good job.

Beautiful Mosques:

The Al-Azhar Mosque in Cairo



Al-Azhar Mosque’s Praying carpet




Al-Azhar Mosques’ Domes




Faisal Mosque in Islamabad, Pakistan




The Mosque of Omar Bin Khattab in Los Angeles, U.S.A




Mosque in Washington City




Mosque in Turkey



Mosque Salimiye in Turkey



Mosque at Istanbul, Turkey



Great Mosque of Djenne




Sulaimen Mosque Turkey




Shah-Alam Mosque, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia,




Underground Mosque at shahrah-e-Faisal, Karachi…
( better view from land, but this was the only pic I found)

What has happened to chowk? Where are the good writers?

I wonder if he tries to taste this? As quran says.


[76:6] But the virtuous shall drink of a cup, tempered with camphor -

[76:7] From a spring wherefrom the servants of Allah will drink - they make it gush forth - a forceful gushing forth.

I wonder, what is that pond of water, which increases in size as people drink from it ?

A.Shiraz,

With utmost respect, as long as you wrote about your experience in this short story, all is well. However, as soon as you begin preaching in your interacts, what most of us shun, matters go out of hand. I wonder if it ever occurred to you that most of us, Muslims, may have had different experiences than you. Did it occur to you, that some of us may have visited churches and temples, but still would hold, our beloved mosques, as the only place we prefer for prayer, and soul searching and submission to Allah? Did it occur to you, some of us may have not been molested or subjected to inferior treatment in mosques, but on the contrary, our experiences have been generally very good? Did, you even try to think from our point of view? You assert and re-assert your one sided view again and again and again, with not even a slight acknowledgement to another’s point of view. It seems from your interacts that you just do not want to look beyond, exactly the same way, you believe that some of Us, Muslims don’t want to look beyond.

You wrote:

“The point is not how much money you can spend on a house of worship. What matters is how clean it is. You can spend millions and then the people who visit it can stink of urine , what will you do about that? Force all of them to take a shower on a day that is not Friday ? Or perhaps you may want to force all to wear some under arm deodorant ? “

It seems to me that you have unfortunately been most unfortunate in your experiences in a mosque and I deeply sympathize with you. But, what bewilders me is the attitude that you are exhibiting. Keeping, Pakistan in view, a country marked by poverty, let us assume that a group of people have built a small mosque. When they hear the sound for prayer, they may be, picking up bricks, building a house, digging a well, they could be doing some plumbing , they could be on the roads searching for a job in the sweltering heat, they could be mechanics repairing cars etc. In essence, all the relatively poor people, sweating but trying to earn a living. Let us assume that during their work, they hear the call for prayer. What do you suggest they do? With no public baths in sight in Pakistan, should they go, miles way to their home to take a bath first? What if no bathing facilities are available in the mosque and all they can do, is perform their required and refreshing wudu? What do you suggest then? Of course, they should use deodorants then? Most of them, don’t even have money to eat a proper meal, but they should definitely, save money to buy a deodorant. How practical can you be?

Al-HamdulliAllah, being a female in Karachi, most of the mosques I have gone too are Clean and DO NOT stink. For instance, the Abu Bakr Mosque in Defence has a separate section for females. Similarly, during Ramadhan, the females in my house go to a nearby Montessori cum mosque for children, with a lush carpet, which does not stink. After, our Taraveeh prayers, we drink coffee and eat cookies with other respected ladies, whilst hearing a small 15 minute dars by a most elegant lady. Until now, (and it has been three years) I have never heard her incite us against non Muslims or to kill them. We are told about family values, kind treatment to servants and poor and relatives, respect for elders and parents, etc. it may seem surprising to you, but the females actively contribute money for government hospitals, orphans and most importantly, to help free the unfairly imprisoned females in Karachi Jail. Trust me, A.Shiraz,I have obtained the sense of well being and deep faith and satisfaction and happiness and i too have skipped home , coming out from my Taraveeh prayers in Karachi and after praying in Haram and Masjid-e-Nabvi and I do not have to search for it elsewhere. I have seen immense help and sharing amongst males and females in mosques. I have seen Indonesian Muslims helping a Pakistani women find her spouse in Haram. I have shared water with Lebanese females in Masjid-e-Nabvi. I have been firmly held by total strangers to not let me fall amongst the throngs of crowds in the Roza’a’Mubarak in Masjid-e-Nabvi. I have seen many females developing strong friendships with other females during taraveeh prayers in the mosques of Karachi.

Happiness and satisfaction can be found anywhere; the only requirement is sincerity and deep faith. Being a Muslim, Al-HamduliAllah, I have been able to find that within a mosque. It is most unfortunate that you have had a different negative experience, but you should not hold your experience as a hard and fast one for other Muslims as well.

You also pointed out the following;

“They provide seating (you don`t have to stand up or squat down until your feet and your back hurt or you ankles are twisted out of shape; in other words you are not suffering physically when you are worshipping your god).”

At first I thought that you ONLY had a problem with mosques. However, it is now clear, that you are also against the very prayer itself. Let me guide you towards the health benefits of offering the Muslim prayer:

{ ps. if kneeling is a problem, get a chair... }

Muslim Prayer and Yoga

**The Muslim prayer has five positions, and they all (as well as the recitations we make while performing the prayer) have a corresponding relationship with our spiritual and mental well being, according to modern scientific research. The benefits of performing specific movements and recitations each day come from the correct rendition of the position or action itself, the length of time the position is held, and from careful and correct recitation techniques.**

**Each of the five prayer positions has a corresponding yoga position, and the positions together “activate” all seven “chakras” (energy fields) in the body. The idea of activating a chakra may sound linguistically strange, but it is easier to understand once one translates that word into more familiar language.**

**The Takbir and Al Qiyyam together are very similar to the Mountain Pose in yoga, which has been found to improve posture, balance, and self-awareness. This position also normalizes blood pressure and breathing, thus providing many benefits to asthma and heart patients. **

**The placement of the hands on the chest during the Qiyyam position are said to activate the solar plexus “chakra,” or nerve pathway, which directs our awareness of self in the world and controls the health of the muscular system, skin, intestines, liver, pancreas, gallbladder and eyes. When the hands are held open for du’a, they activate the heart “chakra,” said to be the center of the feelings of love, harmony, and peace, and to control love and compassion. It also governs the health of the heart, lungs, thymus, immune system, and circulatory system. **

**Muslim researchers have shown that when Muslims recite the Qur’an, old thoughts, feelings, fears and guilt are released or healed, and blood pressure and stress levels are reduced. Virtually all of the sounds of the Arabic language are uttered while reciting Qur’an, creating a balance in all affected areas of the body. **

**Some specific sounds, in fact, correspond to major organs in the body. In his research and creation of eurhythmy, Rudolph Steiner (founder of the Waldorf Schools), , found that vibrations made when pronouncing the long vowels, `A`, `E` and `U,` stimulated the heart, lungs, and the thyroid, pineal, pituitary, and adrenal glands during laboratory tests.
The position of Ruku is very similar to the Forward Bend Position in yoga. Ruku stretches the muscles of the lower back, thighs, legs and calves, and allows blood to be pumped down into the upper torso. It tones the muscles of the stomach, abdomen, and kidneys. Forming a right angle allows the stomach muscles to develop, and prevents flabbiness in the mid-section. **

**This position also promotes a greater flow of blood into the upper regions of body – particularly to the head, eyes, ears, nose, brain, and lungs – allowing mental toxins to be released. Over time, this improves brain function and ones personality, and is an excellent stance to maintain the proper position of the fetus in pregnant women.**

**The Sujud is said to activate the “crown chakra,” which is related to a person’s spiritual connection with the universe around them and their enthusiasm for spiritual pursuits. This nerve pathway is also correlated to the health of the brain, nervous system, and pineal gland. Its healthy function balances ones interior and exterior energies. **

**In Sujud, we also bend; thus activating the “base chakra,” which controls basic human survival instincts and provides essential grounding. This helps to develop levelheaded and positive thinking along with a highly motivated view of life, and maintains the health of the lymph and skeletal systems, the prostate, bladder, and the adrenal glands. We also bend the “sacral chakra” during Sujud, thus benefiting and toning the reproductive organs.**

**The position of Al Qaadah, (or Julus) is similar to the Thunderbolt Pose in yoga, which firms the toes, knees, thighs, and legs. It is said to be good for those prone to excessive sleep, and those who like to keep long hours. Furthermore, this position assists in speedy digestion, aids the detoxification of the liver, and stimulates peristaltic action in the large intestine.**

**Last, but not least, the “throat chakra” is activated by turning the head towards first the right and then the left shoulder in the closing of the prayer. This nerve path is linked to the throat, neck, arms, hands, bronchials, and hearing – effecting individual creativity and communication. **

**It is believed that a person who activates all seven nerve pathways at least once a day can remain well balanced emotionally, physically and spiritually. Since this is the goal of all sincere Muslims, we all should strive to attain the perfection of stance, recitation, and breathing recommended in the Hadith while performing our prayers – the very same techniques of perfection taught in popular yoga, Tai Chi, and many other exercise classes. **

Some More Advantages of the Muslim Prayer:

Psychological advantage:

**This is a great psychological advantage and it gives relief to the person concerned as life is full of worries and in this position he gets at least a transient refuge from the agonizing problems. **

**When a person goes to the position of Sajda(Prostration), his whole body is in active motion. This position can be considered as a mini dive as the musalli (one who offers prayer) goes to rest his forehead on the ground while his hands are placed at the sides. This brings most of the body muscles if not all in active motion and serves to give them some exercise. The hands are then specifically stretched out and thence the forearm as well as arm muscles are supposed to bear the weight in the Sajda(Prostration) position. It gives good exercise to the muscles of the upper limb. The Prophet (peace be upon him) in a hadith advised not to put the forearms flatly on the ground but to keep them elevated above ground and this is better for the forearm and arm muscles. **

**Sajda(Prostration) is a unique position as this is the only position in which brain (or head) becomes lower than the heart and hence for the first time the blood gushes towards the brain with full force whereas in all other positions (even when lying) brain is above the heart when it has to work against gravity to send blood to the brain. In the position of Sajda(Prostration) due to the increased blood supply the brain receive more nourishment and it has good effect upon memory, vision, hearing, concentration, psyche and all other cognitive abilities. **


**People who offer their prayers regularly have more will power and can cope with the difficulties of life in a much better manner. **

**They have less incidence of headaches, psychological problems and other defects of cognitive function. In the unique position of Sajda(Prostration) the neck muscles get best exercise. They have to bear the load when the forehead lies at the ground hence the neck muscles become stronger. One can note the tense pressure at the neck muscles in the position of Sajda(Prostration) specially the active motion of the neck and the facial muscles when the head is being lifted. (e.g. one inch above the ground) and it will be noticed that they are in a very active motion. **

**More strong cervical muscles mean the cervical vertebra will be better protected. Strength of cervical muscles is important as the head rests upon cervical vertebra supported by cervical musculature. In fact head performs rotator movements over the cervical vertebra. In any accident cervical neck examination is especially important to the physicians because of its extraordinary importance. It is uncommon that a person who offers his prayers regularly will get the usual neck myalgias or cervical spondylosis as the neck muscles particularly become very strong due to the 34 sajdas(Prostrations) offered daily in five prayers.

The unique position of Sajda(Prostration) also has positive effects upon the back muscles as while going into Sajda and getting up from it the back muscle contract actively and they become stronger. Probably it is because of this reason that a person who is regular in prayers will (rarely) get backache. **

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Respected, author, I do hope that I have not offended you, in any way. You have my truest sympathy with regards to the most unfortunate experiences you had in certain mosques. However, I again would like to point out, that the experiences of other Muslims may be different and more positive than yours. I think you are an intelligent and brave man who will try to understand what I have tried to express. In fact I am sure that you will , because you too are one of us. i.e. (quoting you)

“1- you are an untarnished and beautiful people who love truth “
“2- you are a confident and secure people who can take criticism.”


Kind regards and Best of Luck.

``music is not haram ``#92 by URUS on September 10, 2004 2:47pm PT

I guess this means that we are going to see a musical instrument in a Mosque anytime now?

None have witnessed a musical instrument in a mosque for the past 1400 years but who knows, it might happen, right?

``nasha of anything is haram ``

Are you sure? I am certain there will be some Muslim who will disagree with you there.

After all Islam is willing to prostitute itself into drinking bhang and there are people who delude themselves and others into believing that such behavior is Islamic and actually ask me to consider such Mosques as alternatives. The strange thing is these Muslims act as if this Bhang drinking Islam is the ``norm`` and the mosques which don`t serve Bhang as ``extremist`` and ``very rare``.

So if there is a ``Sufi mosque`` then why not a special mosque for those of us who feel that ``true`` Islam considers music to be ``not haram``?

I ran into a ``Gay Mosque`` recently , these guys even have a website! so those of us who want to find arguments to defend this faith can now say ``Islam is not homophobic`` ...

What will we have next? perhaps a mosque that upholds the oft repeated punchline ``Islam is for peace``?

Sarcasm aside, consider this: honesty.

If you dishonestly recast Islam in a western light and then try to pass it off as Islam you delude yourself and other innocent people and prolong the conflict between the religions.

If you like something about the west: for example their music, embarce music rather than try to twist your own religion into a western mold. Ofcourse the ``sellers`` of Islam will do everything and anything to market their religion but you only have to open your eyes to see that these are not ``reformers`` or ``revisionists`` or those who do ``ijtihad`` but these are slick oil salespeople who merely want more converts to brainwash and control because their consumer base is dying and sick or leaving in hordes.

There are some cultures that value freedom, love, equality and justice. There are other cultures that scorn freedom, love, equality and justice. Islam belongs to a culture that does NOT value freedom (Islam means submission), does NOT stand for love (its shirk to love), nor equality (just look at your mosques segregated by gender) nor does Islam stand for justice (half witness anyone?).

Why force everyone to believe it to be otherwise?

You are prolonging your miseries and the miseries of the dwellers of this earth. The intelligent and the brave will see it and see what else is out there and embrace the best of whatever is out there WITHOUT trying to recast or lie or market their religion as something OTHER than what it really is.

When you try to twist Islam out of shape you anger the fanatics who then come after the ``westerners`` and you guys with a greater vengeance. Why not leave the fundamentalists to their fate and their religion and join the rest of us? Wouldn`t that be easier than forcing everyone to be like everyone else? Islam is simply incompatible with the west!

a very immature piece of literature,
you prompted a response because of the religions involved

i think more than anything else
``thark`` is a very big aspect to your personality

don`t you get to see girls elsewhere?
you have to do it when you`re worshiping?

music is not haram
nasha of anything is haram
and when beats make you go crazy
and advocate drinking and promiscuity
thats when it is haram

each person`s relationship with god is unique
if the enclosure of a mosque does not agree with you
how about a cave or a circle drawn in the sand?

think, before you speak Mr. Shiraz
the rabbit hole goes alot deeper

``In your earlier posts in this thread you have spoken on chivalry and being a gentleman which was quite nice, especially coming from a desi. However you just tarnished your image by saying this about Faiza... ``Really I don`t even find that woman attractive.`` ``#90 by doublec on September 10, 2004 12:20pm PT


Main Entry: chiv·al·rous
Pronunciation: `shi-v&l-r&s
Function: adjective
1 : VALIANT
3 a : marked by honor, generosity, and courtesy b : marked by gracious courtesy and high-minded consideration especially to women

I said it in the spirit of not giving her or anyone the wrong idea. It is more courteous to speak the truth than to lead someone on, in my book. So I would rather just tell them how I truly feel about them. I think that is being gentlemanly in my book.

Athar Shiraz,

In your earlier posts in this thread you have spoken on chivalry and being a gentleman which was quite nice, especially coming from a desi. However you just tarnished your image by saying this about Faiza... ``Really I don`t even find that woman attractive.``

MQM

I already have a bad raputation at this forum and this does not bother me very much. So don`t worry about it.

Once again you do not make sense with your example. If a man has to have $1000 to support a woman (who sets this standard by the way?) but he meets a woman who is willing to sleep with him and live with him at $500 then what prevents this couple from getting into a marriage with Nikah? lust? shirking responsibility? what? this argument is ridiculous. You have to give up one of the two mutually exclusive ideas. One, muta`a is not allowed to a MAN (what has woman done to deserve this) who can afford a permanenet marriage; two, woman can demand a compensation to her heart`s content. These are two impossible objectives.