Role of Pakistan Army Under Musharraf Just Stinks

omar_r_quraishi #201
Well the MMA is still ruling two provinces in Pakistan(still running training camps and madrassas too) , the Army is still ruling the country, and the MMA guy Fazlur Rehman is the leader of the opposition with a seat in the NSC.

That lies at the root of what Karzai is complaining about. Hamid Gul`s way of thinking is still extremely influential going by what is happening in Afghanistan, and what a number of Pakistanis say about Indian Muslims on chowk.

btw yesterday 11 MUSLIM villagers were killed in J&K by people armed and trained by Pakistan. Want to shout Modi modi to cover up that massacre?

Shouting Modi Modi will not serve to cover up those or Pakistan-Taliban massacres or Jamat Ul Fuqra either. It is very much like Bangladeshis who raped Hindu women in their hundreds in October 2001 simply because the BNP won national elections can not shout Modi Modi to cover up.

The message here is, Pakistanis as a nation, state and society need to stop using death and destruction as their chosen way to win friends and influence people. It is not winning you any friends, and as for influencing people, the people are only fighting back, whether Afghans or Indians.

Sadna, whatisface is confused yet again. Will talk, even if we don`t understand the topic...

Can we leave people`s body bits out of this?

And Sikkim isn`t in India?
And Pakistanis don`t fund terrorist organisations.
And Nelson Mandela is white.
Anyway, Omar, enough with the nit-picking, what is it with the jees? It is a very old-fashioned, colonial way of writing ji. I`ve heard Muslims say it too, but they`re Indian or Bangladeshi Muslims, so what would they know? What, also is it with the Shri and Shrimatis? How do you even know Sadna is a Shrimati? In Bengali, all women are referred to as Srimati, but in Hindi, you have to be married to be called that. The proper Hindi equivalent of Ms is Sushri. However, haven`t heard any of those in English conversations for a very long time. The Congress Party used to do that. Do you think people should only speak English, Omar? I mean this seriously.

#200 by sadna on June 25, 2004 11:03am PT
omar_r_quraishi #198
`` i wasnt around on chowk when the bamiyan buddhas were smashed but these days i do see pakistanis discussing what support for jihadis have done to pakistan internally ``

You appear to be curiously clueless. I specifically and repeatedly mentioned Mazar-i-Sharif and Bamiyan massacres in 1998, the Bamiyan Buddhas were destroyed in March 2001. And not surprisingly, there were massacres in 2001 in Bamiyan and Yakaolang as well.


http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9811/06/un.taliban.01/
http://www.hrw.org/reports98/afghan/Afrepor0.htm
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/afghanistan/afghan101-03.htm#TopOfPage

Pakistan`s role in these massacres is well documented too.

I have already cited the figures of 50000-60000 Pakistanis who are believed to have fought for the Taliban.

Here is only a small part of what was said by multiple people pre-9/11 about the direct Pakistani state/military role in the above conflicts:

``Pakistan`s military assistance has run the gamut, from direct involvement of their own forces in Afghanistan to the training of Taliban soldiers in Pakistan. Reportedly, Pakistani military personnel have maintained and operated Taliban aircraft and tanks, and Pakistani officers have played combat advisory roles for the Taliban.

Several hundred ``Pakistani Taliban`` have been captured and an indeterminate number killed in fighting against the northern Afghan groups. Iran, Russia, Tajikstan, and Uzbekistan along with the Afghan opposition government, all have alleged that the Taliban victories in northern Afghanistan in 1998 were due in part ot direct Pakistani military involvement, including more than fifteen hundred troops and numerous combat sorties
by the Pakistan Air Force. Similar allegations were made during the summer offensives of 1999 and 2000.``

``Pakistan has been the primary recruiter for the Taliban, to the point that today the movement`s rank-and-file soldiers include more than ten thousand Pakistanis. The ISI has recruited thousands of Pakistani youths since 1994, primarily from madrassahs, to fill Taliban ranks.````

``Their best Afghan infantry now appear to be battle-harded eastern Pushtun tribesman.... Meanwhile, they rely increasingly on Pakistani recruits, fighting in their own units and led by Pakistani noncommissioned and commissioned offociers. The Taliban air force, armored units, and artillery are reportedly staffed by ex-Khalqis and maintained by Pakistani military personnel.``

Chap 4, ``Impact of the War on Afghan State and Society``, Afghanistan`s Endless War, Larry Goodson, University of Washington Press, 2001.

Even last week, Hamid Karzai was complaining about Pakistan according to Far Eastern Economic review:
http://www.feer.com/articles/2004/0407_01/p008intell.html
``Afghanistan`s President Hamid Karzai has complained bitterly to United States President George W. Bush about neighbouring Pakistan`s alleged continued support for Taliban guerrillas seeking to overthrow his government. During their meeting in Washington on June 15, the Afghan leader spent nearly half the time criticizing his Pakistani counterpart, Pervez Musharraf, and claiming that Islamabad was undermining attempts to hold elections in September, according to senior Western diplomats in Kabul. ``


``-- however idont see any indian discussing some of the less benign features of the previous BJP govt, its saffronization campaign or comment on the BJP`s inability to do anything about modi who still is cm of gujarat``

Where have you been. This has been discussed repeatedly and continuously on chowk including currently on Farzana`s Inner Conscience thread.

`` -- i also dont see any of the indian interactors condemn the completely racist/misogynist/hateful remarks by interactors such as gujjubania ``

We did react, go and read the thread in question.

btw, I have never heard Pakistanis protest when Pakistanis say exactly the same thing as gujjubania said, that Indian Muslims are more loyal to Pakistan than to India.

I did not hear Pakistanis protest that a Pakistani-state-sponsored terrorist group Laskhar-e-Toiba(which Musharraf defends to foreign journalists) is actively trying to involve Indian Muslims in its anti-India activities. Why do not Pakistanis protest this terrorist groups activities in India and their adverse fallout on Indian Muslims?

I alsodid not see any Pakistani protest at what Hamid Gul keeps saying, for example
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/feb/13inter.htm
``When you were ISI chief you were closely monitoring India…

We never wanted to create problems with our Muslim population in India. Otherwise, believe me, India is so fragile. India has such weak joints that if we want we could strike these weak joints then India will dismember. But we don`t want India to break.

Weak joints?
India is ridden with problems. I am not talking about Muslims. There are many other weak joints. Indians have strong fissiparous tendencies, which is absent in Pakistan. One can easily exploit it politically. Because of Indian Muslims it is not in our interest to break India.``


Why is OK if any Pakistani talks cr_p of this sort, why does not anyone protest then? Where is your great love and affection for Indian Muslims when Pakistanis talk this way?

``as for`` No one has EVER discussed why Pakistanis funded an organisation to kill Hindus in the US.`` -- acha please discuss this with me, also discuss the source of your information on this because i have never heard of this one -- and if i would i wouldnt have denied it -- ``

I already mentioned it in my post #131 omarjee, go and take a look. With your journalist testimonials and contacts you should be able to dig out the federal and state indictments against Jamat Ul Fuqra, omarjee.

Let us see if Pakistanis have the proverbials to discuss Pakistanis killing Hindus in the US, omarjee. I doubt it because anyone who kills Hindus is honored as either a state hero or a state guest in Pakistan.

``-- at the same time, please be willing to discuss the VHP`s misuse of funds from overseas, raised supposedly for charity and donated, knowingly or unknowingly by NRIs -- should we
also discuss that much of the hindu rightwings funds come from well educated well to do NRIs (apparently like yourself, that is if u live outside india?) -- i hope u can understand that in the case of gujarat it was state sponsored genocide -- ``

I am quite outspoken about these whether on the web, on chowk and elsewhere or in my real life and I have nothing to prove to anyone on this point.


i seemed to have touched a raw nerve sadna jee -- my point still stands, which was that when u were discussing these things i wasnt around on chowk -- and by the way who is denying that the buddhas were destroyed and that it was a reprehensible act -- but so was the bombing of a whole country wasnt it -- which killed several thousand people many of whom were women and children --

sadna jee again: ``We did react, go and read the thread in question.`` -- i DONT write without first checking things shrimati jee -- obviously the response, if u can call it that, was very muted -- there was no outright condemnation by one and all -- i think anyone can see the difference --


sadna again: ``I alsodid not see any Pakistani protest at what Hamid Gul keeps saying, for example
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/feb/13inter.htm
``When you were ISI chief you were closely monitoring India… `` -- sadna jee hamid gul has his fair share of critics, as well as admirers, in pakistan -- as far as the english media goes he is often criticized, ridiculed, reviled and ignored -- your question is irrelevant because the point has never been raised on this site, at least not in my interactions --


sadna jee again: ``Let us see if Pakistanis have the proverbials to discuss Pakistanis killing Hindus in the US, omarjee. I doubt it because anyone who kills Hindus is honored as either a state hero or a state guest in Pakistan.``

shrimati jee like i said earlier i have not heard of these reports and i think i am quite well informed -- whether i disagree or agree on this issue is not the point, the point is that if i had ever heard of anything like this i would have told u so -- mubarak geelani`s example is a case in point -- im not sure about the state guest bit in pakistan but since u must bring this point i should say that in india those who engineer the deatsh of 2000 muslims find themselves in chief ministerial positions ! isnt that nice sadna jee .........

I agree with you Shaheen,
This is all what they did...Never happened in the history of Pakistan with Army, what we are seeing now.
There is no good reason of it else Army itself and of course the leader is Musharaf!!

omar_r_quraishi #198
`` i wasnt around on chowk when the bamiyan buddhas were smashed but these days i do see pakistanis discussing what support for jihadis have done to pakistan internally ``

You appear to be curiously clueless. I specifically and repeatedly mentioned Mazar-i-Sharif and Bamiyan massacres in 1998, the Bamiyan Buddhas were destroyed in March 2001. And not surprisingly, there were massacres in 2001 in Bamiyan and Yakaolang as well.


http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9811/06/un.taliban.01/
http://www.hrw.org/reports98/afghan/Afrepor0.htm
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/afghanistan/afghan101-03.htm#TopOfPage

Pakistan`s role in these massacres is well documented too.

I have already cited the figures of 50000-60000 Pakistanis who are believed to have fought for the Taliban.

Here is only a small part of what was said by multiple people pre-9/11 about the direct Pakistani state/military role in the above conflicts:

``Pakistan`s military assistance has run the gamut, from direct involvement of their own forces in Afghanistan to the training of Taliban soldiers in Pakistan. Reportedly, Pakistani military personnel have maintained and operated Taliban aircraft and tanks, and Pakistani officers have played combat advisory roles for the Taliban.

Several hundred ``Pakistani Taliban`` have been captured and an indeterminate number killed in fighting against the northern Afghan groups. Iran, Russia, Tajikstan, and Uzbekistan along with the Afghan opposition government, all have alleged that the Taliban victories in northern Afghanistan in 1998 were due in part ot direct Pakistani military involvement, including more than fifteen hundred troops and numerous combat sorties
by the Pakistan Air Force. Similar allegations were made during the summer offensives of 1999 and 2000.``

``Pakistan has been the primary recruiter for the Taliban, to the point that today the movement`s rank-and-file soldiers include more than ten thousand Pakistanis. The ISI has recruited thousands of Pakistani youths since 1994, primarily from madrassahs, to fill Taliban ranks.````

``Their best Afghan infantry now appear to be battle-harded eastern Pushtun tribesman.... Meanwhile, they rely increasingly on Pakistani recruits, fighting in their own units and led by Pakistani noncommissioned and commissioned offociers. The Taliban air force, armored units, and artillery are reportedly staffed by ex-Khalqis and maintained by Pakistani military personnel.``

Chap 4, ``Impact of the War on Afghan State and Society``, Afghanistan`s Endless War, Larry Goodson, University of Washington Press, 2001.

Even last week, Hamid Karzai was complaining about Pakistan according to Far Eastern Economic review:
http://www.feer.com/articles/2004/0407_01/p008intell.html
``Afghanistan`s President Hamid Karzai has complained bitterly to United States President George W. Bush about neighbouring Pakistan`s alleged continued support for Taliban guerrillas seeking to overthrow his government. During their meeting in Washington on June 15, the Afghan leader spent nearly half the time criticizing his Pakistani counterpart, Pervez Musharraf, and claiming that Islamabad was undermining attempts to hold elections in September, according to senior Western diplomats in Kabul. ``


``-- however idont see any indian discussing some of the less benign features of the previous BJP govt, its saffronization campaign or comment on the BJP`s inability to do anything about modi who still is cm of gujarat``

Where have you been. This has been discussed repeatedly and continuously on chowk including currently on Farzana`s Inner Conscience thread.

`` -- i also dont see any of the indian interactors condemn the completely racist/misogynist/hateful remarks by interactors such as gujjubania ``

We did react, go and read the thread in question.

btw, I have never heard Pakistanis protest when Pakistanis say exactly the same thing as gujjubania said, that Indian Muslims are more loyal to Pakistan than to India.

I did not hear Pakistanis protest that a Pakistani-state-sponsored terrorist group Laskhar-e-Toiba(which Musharraf defends to foreign journalists) is actively trying to involve Indian Muslims in its anti-India activities. Why do not Pakistanis protest this terrorist groups activities in India and their adverse fallout on Indian Muslims?

I alsodid not see any Pakistani protest at what Hamid Gul keeps saying, for example
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/feb/13inter.htm
``When you were ISI chief you were closely monitoring India…

We never wanted to create problems with our Muslim population in India. Otherwise, believe me, India is so fragile. India has such weak joints that if we want we could strike these weak joints then India will dismember. But we don`t want India to break.

Weak joints?
India is ridden with problems. I am not talking about Muslims. There are many other weak joints. Indians have strong fissiparous tendencies, which is absent in Pakistan. One can easily exploit it politically. Because of Indian Muslims it is not in our interest to break India.``


Why is OK if any Pakistani talks cr_p of this sort, why does not anyone protest then? Where is your great love and affection for Indian Muslims when Pakistanis talk this way?

``as for`` No one has EVER discussed why Pakistanis funded an organisation to kill Hindus in the US.`` -- acha please discuss this with me, also discuss the source of your information on this because i have never heard of this one -- and if i would i wouldnt have denied it -- ``

I already mentioned it in my post #131 omarjee, go and take a look. With your journalist testimonials and contacts you should be able to dig out the federal and state indictments against Jamat Ul Fuqra, omarjee.

Let us see if Pakistanis have the proverbials to discuss Pakistanis killing Hindus in the US, omarjee. I doubt it because anyone who kills Hindus is honored as either a state hero or a state guest in Pakistan.

``-- at the same time, please be willing to discuss the VHP`s misuse of funds from overseas, raised supposedly for charity and donated, knowingly or unknowingly by NRIs -- should we
also discuss that much of the hindu rightwings funds come from well educated well to do NRIs (apparently like yourself, that is if u live outside india?) -- i hope u can understand that in the case of gujarat it was state sponsored genocide -- ``

I am quite outspoken about these whether on the web, on chowk and elsewhere or in my real life and I have nothing to prove to anyone on this point.

shrimati sadna jee -- i wasnt around on chowk when the bamiyan buddhas were smashed but these days i do see pakistanis discussing what support for jihadis have done to pakistan internally -- however idont see any indian discussing some of the less benign features of the previous BJP govt, its saffronization campaign or comment on the BJP`s inability to do anything about modi who still is cm of gujarat -- i also dont see any of the indian interactors condemn the completely racist/misogynist/hateful remarks by interactors such as gujjubania (who quite clearly said that indian muslims and other minorities should be kicked out of india) or by nikki -- now THAT is completely one sided -- and speaking of one sided your posts are pretty much one sided too -- hope u can see that by the way --

as for`` No one has EVER discussed why Pakistanis funded an organisation to kill Hindus in the US.`` -- acha please discuss this with me, also discuss the source of your information on this because i have never heard of this one -- and if i would i wouldnt have denied it -- i think this is a good one shrimati jee or someone is giving u quite inaccurate information -- at the same time, please be willing to discuss the VHP`s misuse of funds from overseas, raised supposedly for charity and donated, knowingly or unknowingly by NRIs -- should we also discuss that much of the hindu rightwings funds come from well educated well to do NRIs (apparently like yourself, that is if u live outside india?) -- i hope u can understand that in the case of gujarat it was state sponsored genocide --
and by the way mubarak geelani has figured in the english media here and not in glowing terms by the way --

hellbound: ``Why blame Indians, we the so called Pakistanis give them the fuel for the fire to roast us...not that they are succeeding thanks to `enlightened` ppl on either side of the border`` -- i think the paki bashers will try and roast us anyway regardless of whether we give them any fuel or not --

Ibn-al-Posterior/192 - everything she is fine here and you have the habit of the backing reverse reverse dig holes into india matters change?

omar_r_quraishi #193
``as for discussing bamiyan who doesnt want to here -- but lets not make it one sided shri sadna jee ``

omar jee, you are right, it is wholly one-sided jee.

No Pakistani has EVER mentioned much less discussed Mazar-i-Sharif and Bamiyan massacres on chowk.

No Pakistani has EVER mentioned much less discussed the killings of Hindus and firebombing of temples in the US by Jamat ul Fuqra, its funding by Pakistani expatriates and the lack of any action by Pakistani government against Mubarak Geelani who lives in Pakistan. No one has EVER discussed why Pakistanis funded an organisation to kill Hindus in the US.

This total and complete silence is totally one-sided omar jee.

To your credit at least you are still posting on this thread, usually the interactor in question disappears from the thread altogether.

If you think by discrediting those who speak about some uncomfortable realities like the Daily Times does, that such realities will go away, I have to point out that is a uniquely dumb Pakistani establishment point of view. Amazing if a journalist too holds this POV.

Shutting people up for talking about jihadis and their antecedents will never serve to get those jihadis to stop killing people, it only exposes how hollow are `liberal humanist` pretensions of those trying to shut people up.

Omar: careful about the use of word Sikkim...Veeresh jee and his ilk consider Sikkim as an `Uttoot ang`` of Bharat!

Omar at 191:

These are not the arjuns, sadnas or veereshes of the world that are to be blamed.... The self-serving Pakistanis on PID payrooll are the ones that need to be drubbed. Najam Sethi was a struggling journo till the time India and stupid hareesa eating NS made him a superstar.

Mohsin Hassan Khan was an average opening batsment, an Indian actress and Indian press made him a superstar.

Whazz-his-name Adnan Sami was a struggling artiste till the time he used India card.....

Why blame Indians, we the so called Pakistanis give them the fuel for the fire to roast us...not that they are succeeding thanks to `enlightened` ppl on either side of the border

shri veeresh jee, shouldnt you post apply more to the likes of shri arjun jee et al after all who is a better cutter paster than shri arjun jee ??

harish jee: ``#177 by harish_hyd on June 21, 2004 8:59pm PT
#173 by omar_r_quraishi on June 21, 2004 6:45am PT

[actually infinitely more informed than u harish, about your own country that is]

So after all, the myth about superfast Internet lines in Pakistan is just that: a myth. That you chose not to look up World Bank (or any other international organization) figures and instead throw around fictitious figures proves the point I earlier made. That you’re an ill-informed ‘Assistant Editor’. How you managed to survive at a ‘reputed’ newspaper is a miracle.

[well shri haresh jee if u want to score points here are the facts -- around 40 killed because of the contaminated water in sindh`s hyderabad -- as for indian hyderabad , capital of a state where, according to last count (and figures taken from The Hindu as of last week) 164 farmers had committed suicide over poverty and financial reasons --]

Shifting goalposts, eh? I thought we were talking about contaminated water? ``

actually no shri harish jee, we were talking about hyderabad jee --


``That you chose not to look up World Bank (or any other international organization) figures`` -- hahaha your understanding or lack thereof shows here harish jee -- where do u think international organizations get their figures from -- in the case of india or pakistan it would be from their respective governments, finance ministries, planning commissions and so on -- if you`re referring to the gdp figure well that shri harish jee was taken from pakistan`s latest economic survey and if you care to read in detail the text of teh finanace minister`s speech has been posted on farzana versey`sboard --

shri sadna jee: glad to see that u talked about gujarat for 2 yrs -- any reason we cant keep talking about it, have you put a moratorium on that perhaps ? as for discussing bamiyan who doesnt want to here -- but lets not make it one sided shri sadna jee


sadna again: ``It is just that I have no illusions about the `liberal humanist` credentials of Pakistanis who gladly discuss the Gujarat massacre but avoid any reference to the Mazar-i-Sharif, Bamiyan and other massacres which their compatriots participated in with the Pakistani state`s support. I believe this strange anomaly comes down to the `liberal` creed which the vast majority of Pakistanis subsribe to, namely ``Hindus = fascist by definition`` even when they disagree a discussion board, and ``Muslims = liberals by definition`` even when they massacre thousands. `` -- u r surely the master, or should i say, mistress of spin, shrimati sadna jee -- nowhere have i ever said that hindus are fascists but rather that the paki bashers here on chowk all seem to be card carrying RSS supporters -- as for being liberal or humanist, never called myself either, though i think that you want to be perceived as one -- dont ever recall anyone ever saying that muslims are liberal are either -- u surely are the mistress of spin shrimati sadna jee -- BRAVO !



and by the way shri arjun jee, here`s another story from the website where you got the one on the sui airport from -- btw there are many on the activities of the bodos, the naxalites, the freedom movements in mizoram, tripura, assam and all -- would you want to read them here arjun jee ?????


Thu Jun 24, 3:19 AM ET

By WASBIR HUSSAIN, Associated Press Writer

GAUHATI, India - A bomb exploded in a crowded bus, killing at least five people and critically wounding 17 on Thursday in the northeastern Indian state of Assam, police said.



The explosion blew the bus apart near Mathurapur, 225 miles east of the state capital of Gauhati, a police officer said on condition of anonymity.


Other details were not immediately released.


No one claimed responsibility for the attack.


A series of bomb attacks have wounded 28 people in the last two weeks in the state`s tea-growing district of Tinsukia. Police have blamed the United Liberation Front of Asom, or ULFA, for the explosions.


The ULFA has been fighting for a separate homeland for Assamese since 1979.

hellbound -- haha good one about the DT -- and shri arjun jee over the past 2 decades there have been hundreds of editorials like that in the indian press, all you have to do is to replace balochistan with tripura, assam, mizoram or nagaland or even sikkim -- :)

raplhie boy: ``Arjun rarely puts up a fact without backing it up with verifiable and mostly reliable links.`` -- HAHAHAHA reliable my a** -- one world is a very reliable website of news information ralph --

mog man -- sub theek tau hai???

arjun: your understanding of Paki politcs and understanding of media dynamics is really rudimentary. DT is a relatively new newspaper still struggling to accept mainstream acceptance..it is more like a Daily Mirror, a taboloid at its very best...If I were you I would not quote DT for obvious reasons...one of them being that it can be best described as an ambulance chaser at its very best...and I mean on Thursday`s when it posts Kamran Shafi`s op-ed LOL LOL for your gullibility!!!!!