Role of Pakistan Army Under Musharraf Just Stinks

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omarjee #267
``u need to grow up and sometimes admit that blaming and accusing people of baseless things can sometimes badly backfire ``

Oh, is saying that your information and interpretation is wrong and you will not admit it, actionable?

Well, here is bad news I was being kind earlier. Based on your replies on this thread, I am forced to call you a pathetic liar.

shri harish: ``You didn`t deny you didn`t plaigarize. Thanks for admitting that you do the same, though. At least Arjun`s posts are spot on. I`m sure you don`t like that. After all who likes to see their country being taken to the cleaners?``


errrr harry potter jee -- one doesnt deny what one hasnt done -- boo! your tung pajama is on fire by the way .... and shri harry jee of course someone like u would think that shri arjun jee`s posts are ``spot on`` -- that anyways isnt my point in all of this -- its that your country has some pretty big problems too harry jee so try looking a bit inward for a change and dont get too upset if others point that out to u -- jai ram jee kee harry jee

harry jee again: ``nb, in other words, anything that shows Pakistan in its true light is anti-Pakistan. You don`t get that do you?`` -- er no harry jee -- any interactor who has a pathological tendency to post such stories all the while ignoring that many very bad things happen at home and who gets infuriated if such facts are pointed out would be perceived as being quite anti the country he or she is continuously posting with reference to --



nb: ``Not standing back, Omar. Stand back indeed. How pretentious can you get? I pointed out straightaway that you`d have to say it in Dawn, not here, so stop pretending you didn`t understand that and stop playing victim.`` -- a hint of confusion here but DONT bother explaining please -- not playing the victim at all -- i decide what i say and where i say and u decide whether u agree or disagree with what i say -- right nb -- isnt that the whole purpose of sites like chowk --


nb again: ``The SBS interview is not rebutted, Mushy contradicted himself. Your problem is with your President, not a news channel, but it`s easier and safer for you to blame the messenger. SBS is not anti-Pakistan. Pakistan does have fairly good PR, considering everything-better than say, the Saudis, who don`t seem to bother.
Do you even know what you want to say? `` =-- jesus -- u still dont get it -- the fact that i was allegedly making things up on my own stands quite rebutted doesnt it nb jee -- i dont have a problem with SBS at all and i think im quite entitled to think, if i want to, that their intro to the interview was quite disproportionately negative -- dont see why that should bother u so much nb jee --


shrimati sadna jee: ``So I fail to see what is the point you are making. I suspect you are doing your best to be like someone who will go to great lengths not admit his information and his interpretation of it was wrong. Your choice.`` -- dah ling u have failed all along in that -- its incredible that even after the news report has been presented to your highness you`re still blaming me -- sheesh sadna u need to grow up and sometimes admit that blaming and accusing people of baseless things can sometimes badly backfire --

nikki man -- you`re now more incomprehensible than ever

#262 by omar_r_quraishi

[cutting and pasting is what shri arjun jee is good at -- yes rabid paki haters like you harish jee would hate any pakistani newspaper -- and by the way mine is bigger than yours has been perfected by your comrades pundit jee --]

You didn`t deny you didn`t plaigarize. Thanks for admitting that you do the same, though. At least Arjun`s posts are spot on. I`m sure you don`t like that. After all who likes to see their country being taken to the cleaners?

[my objections to the sbs programme were nothing really except a comment that it seemed quite anti pakistan in its intro to the interview -- however wrong u might think my opinion is i do have a right to it nb jee ?]

nb, in other words, anything that shows Pakistan in its true light is anti-Pakistan. You don`t get that do you?

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Not standing back, Omar. Stand back indeed. How pretentious can you get? I pointed out straightaway that you`d have to say it in Dawn, not here, so stop pretending you didn`t understand that and stop playing victim.
The SBS interview is not rebutted, Mushy contradicted himself. Your problem is with your President, not a news channel, but it`s easier and safer for you to blame the messenger.
SBS is not anti-Pakistan. Pakistan does have fairly good PR, considering everything-better than say, the Saudis, who don`t seem to bother.
Do you even know what you want to say?

omar_r_quraishi #262
Well Hafiz Sayeed is still active as is his jihadi organisation which has renamed itself. On top of that Musharraf denies that the group is banned and insists it is on watch. On top of that the organisation is collecting money and propagating their jihadi agenda openly under the noses of Pakistani officialdom. I provided you multiple sources to confirm all these facts.

So I fail to see what is the point you are making. I suspect you are doing your best to be like someone who will go to great lengths not admit his information and his interpretation of it was wrong. Your choice.

shri harish jee (ad nauseum): ``#261 by harish_hyd on July 6, 2004 11:00pm PT
#256 by omar_r_quraishi

[-- they were refuted quite easily -- only if you had the brains to comprehend pundit jee --]

Mullah jee, It ain`t called rebuttal. It`s called the mine-is-bigger-than-yours exercise. Pardon me Mullah jee if my brains don`t allow me to understand your brilliant logic, but that`s how they understand it, at least in the civilized world. Curse the civilized world!

[harish jee -- better catch hold of your pajamas before they burst into flames]

You can do better than copying, can`t you Mullah jee? It doesn`t behove of an `Assistant Editor` at Dawn to plaigarize...hehe. After all, the world knows how reputed that newspaper is.

cutting and pasting is what shri arjun jee is good at -- yes rabid paki haters like you harish jee would hate any pakistani newspaper -- and by the way mine is bigger than yours has been perfected by your comrades pundit jee --


nb: ``Omar
I can`t go on, because I really don`t have time to discuss your rubbish, but I`ll try to make it short.`` -- yes and likewise nb -- your drivel has made me miss spend 30 mins every day trying to convince brainwashed minds -- im glad you finally see the futility of all this -- and by the way now that the sbs interview stands rebutted by the story of what musharraf himself said in 2002 i suppose you had no choice but to stand back and call what i have been saying all along `rubbish` -- dahling u brought up the threat of libel i didnt so stop educating me about the laws of libel and slander and how they relate to the Internet (in fact that`s what i would call rubbish, with a capital `R` -- if they cant sue the paki haters and bashers on this site then i doubt it that i could be sued for anything i said --


nb: ``Yes, I am just a viewer. If you want to find more writers and journos, this is the wrong place to be looking. Look in the office, maybe?`` -- i dont come on chowk expecting journalists but they all pretend to have information as if they know everything -- and im not talking about myself by the way -- as for mog/veeresh you would have to ask him nb -- i suppose one reason might be because he has been so badly exposed for what he is -- my objections to the sbs programme were nothing really except a comment that it seemed quite anti pakistan in its intro to the interview -- however wrong u might think my opinion is i do have a right to it nb jee ?


nikki: errr NO

shrimate sadna jee -- wow -- plz type in google `jihadi outfits banned in pakistan` and u will get that date yourself -- the debate (wonder was it ever that) wasnt about morons like hafiz saeed who need to be locked up but whether i was saying something which musharraf had contradicted while giving an interview to an australian news network -- i showedthat he himself announced a ban -- wasiay it was pretty widely covered in the international press and given your inclination to keep track of whats happening in pakistan its a bit strange that you missed it -- the story was jan 12 or 13, 2002 shrimati jee --

sadna: ``I posted the website of the still active, renamed group, which you ignored completely more than once.`` -- err i thought u were getting so upset because u thought i was contradicting musharraf`s interview whereas all i was trying to do was to point to you and nb that the outfit was officially banned --

#256 by omar_r_quraishi

[-- they were refuted quite easily -- only if you had the brains to comprehend pundit jee --]

Mullah jee, It ain`t called rebuttal. It`s called the mine-is-bigger-than-yours exercise. Pardon me Mullah jee if my brains don`t allow me to understand your brilliant logic, but that`s how they understand it, at least in the civilized world. Curse the civilized world!

[harish jee -- better catch hold of your pajamas before they burst into flames]

You can do better than copying, can`t you Mullah jee? It doesn`t behove of an `Assistant Editor` at Dawn to plaigarize...hehe. After all, the world knows how reputed that newspaper is.

Funny, how you`ve come a long way from saying the phrase sounded stale to actually using it yourself. Way to go!

Omar
I can`t go on, because I really don`t have time to discuss your rubbish, but I`ll try to make it short.
The logic I use is fine-I`m just pointing out that no one sues on the basis of sites such as these. Your compatriots do say things like the Jews being responsible for things like I mentioned-you don`t say what`s wrong with what I said. You stop them if you want, I don`t care enough about either Jews or Pakistanis.
Umm, narcissism and fantasies of unlimited knowledge are just criteria for Narcissitic personality disorder. I will not have the Mughals blamed for this. What exactly were your objections to the SBS programme? You haven`t spelt it out-so was Mushy lying?
Mog has used Portugese in the past-also maybe Italian. I`m pretty impressed if it is Veeresh, but don`t think it is-why would he use another nick?
Yes, I am just a viewer. If you want to find more writers and journos, this is the wrong place to be looking. Look in the office, maybe?

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omar_r_quraishi #256
1.There is no date on the first news item you posted. OK, so some activists were arrested.

However:
2. The April 2004 interview comes after the Jan 2002 speech. There are several reports that the Jan 2002 ban on LeT was essentially cosmetic. One such report I have already quoted from the book Islamist Networks.

4. LeT has renamed itself Jamat Ud Dawa, as the Australian journalist(and other journalists) pointed out. Jamat Ud Dawa has been put `on watch` which is very different from being banned.

I posted the website of the still active, renamed group, which you ignored completely more than once.

http://www.jamatuddawa.org/

5. Despite the ban and the news report you posted of some arrests, the New York Times pointed out in January 2004 that the group still meets freely :

`` `There was no way to hide the gathering of 500 or so solemn, heavily bearded men who had assembled alongside one of Islamabad`s smartest shopping centers to hear him (Lashkar chief Hafiz Sayed) speak. Brightly colored carpets were strewn around the grass, and banners were strung up around the park extolling the virtues of the ``jihad`` being waged against Indian rule in Kashmir.`

Virulently anti-Indian speeches were topped by Hafiz Sayed who declared `Beat the infidels so harshly that they run away,` probably referring to the minority populations who are being systematically cleansed out of Kashmir valley. Denouncing Musharraf`s support for the United States in its proclaimed war against terrorism, Saeed told his supporters that the jihad for Kashmir `will continue until Kashmir is free.` The Pakistani police simply looked on.

`The anti-Indian speeches at the park were a pointed contrast to what Pakistan`s foreign secretary, Riaz Khokhar, described Wednesday as the ``very constructive`` atmosphere at the talks between him and his Indian counterpart, Shashank.```


FOREIGN DESK | January 8, 2004, Thursday
Sense of Mortality Gave Push to India-Pakistan Talks
By AMY WALDMAN (NYT)


6. Hafiz Sayed is still freely collecting funds for jihad according to Mohammad Shehzad:

http://www.pakistan-facts.com/article.php/20040313121429655


If journalists did not rely solely on government handouts, they may have a better chance at getting to the truth.

nb: ``You did tell Sadna you couldn`t accept that Mushy had said that-is that not saying they made it up? `` -- errr no -- what i said was that what he said on the australian channel was different from his own governments ban -- also said that i was no spokesman for him -- and trust me nb its shri veeresh jee -- what languages are you talking about -- its just french --

nb: ``Mushy knws nothing, Omar knows all`` -- hahaha i wonder who is indulging in doublespeak here -- dah ling nb jee i didnt say i know anything but i referred you and your comrade in arms shrimati sadna jee to the fact that there was documentary public evidence to strongly suggest that all these organizations are banned -- i think surely even you can tell the difference between someone who says that he is the source of such a ban and someone who tries (albeit in vain) to refer people to the existence of govt order/notifications etc that such a ban is in effect --

nb: ``I never had Dawood in the same city as myself, your contacts are doubtless far better than anything I could aspire to. So how am I issuing personal threats?Besides, they can`t sue you for what you write here-all your compatriots insiting the Jews are responsible for everything from AIDS to the 11/9 would spend their lives in jail if people took website posts seriously. That`s why I said, say it in Dawn. I am not the baap of SBS, just a viewer!
Well, I did say you know everything-how dare anyone argue with you? Talk about narcissism and entitlement and grandiose fantasies of unlimited knowledge.`

-- wonder what is the relevance of dawood nb -- my `compatriots` insisting that the jews are responsible for everything -- wow what good logic and arguing skills nb jee -- when all else fails blame the interactors community -- i suppose i should say that many indians blame muslim rule in the subcontinent for a lot too but i rather not indulge in such sweeping half-true generalizations -- as for saying in dawn or chowk or wherever nb jee i dont tell you what to write here or anywhere else -- and considering the drivel that your compatriots post here this is im sure kosher -- `narcissism and fantasies of unlimited knowledge`

---

yes, also talk about not being able to deal with people who disagree with you nb jee -- i think if an indian journalist told me that contrary to what his prime minister or president had said in an interview teh facts were otherwise, i would (a) agree with him (b) disagree with him but i wouldnt launch personal attacks on him -- but like i said nb jee you and your pak-bashing comrades are quite the experts at this kind of thing -- and by the way like u said you`re just a viewer --




shri harish: ``You`re forgetting that Mullah Omar jee is an `Assistant Editor`...in other words, he`s mastered the art of doublespeak.`` -- aaahhh oh yes -- the wise sage has spoken !


shri harish jee: ``Hahaha, now this is what I would call signs of desperation. That you cannot refute Arjun`s arguments and instead choose to remind us that India has problems is a sure sign of a loser. Give up, Mullah jee.`` -- they were refuted quite easily -- only if you had the brains to comprehend pundit jee --


sadna: ``HAHAHAHA. President speaks on international TV, that should be ignored. On the other hand, what omar r quraishi asserts without the slightest corroboration must be accepted as the revealed truth, closer to the horse`s mouth than the horse itself.`` -- dahling please refer to what i said in response to nb --

and shrimati jee this hopefully will set things right -- its from daily times, your fav paki paper -- its a story datelined july 6 shrimati jee -- please read it carefully -- the ban has been in place since 2002 --


More organisations likely to be banned for terrorism

By Amir Rana

LAHORE: The government is likely to ban more jihadi groups including the Harkatul Jihad-e-Islami (HJI) and Jamiatul Mujahideen (JM) after it found evidence they were involved in the suicide attacks on President General Pervez Musharraf, sources in the Interior Ministry and intelligence agencies told Daily Times on Sunday.

The operation against the suspected terrorists began on December 26, a day after two suicide bombers drove into President Musharraf’s convoy in vehicles packed with explosives. According to the Interior Ministry sources, 60 suspects have been picked up in the Punjab for involvement in the attacks or links with the attackers. Fifteen were released after preliminary investigations.

According to a law enforcement agency report, the suspects are from defunct groups Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LJ), Tehrik-e-Khuddamul Islam (TKI), Jamiatul Ansar (JA), Jamiatul Furqan (JF), Lashkar-e-Taiba (LT), Harkatul Mujahideen Alalmi (HMA), the HJI and JM.

“Law enforcement agencies were initially confused about how so many groups could be involved in the suicide attacks, but some of the suspects revealed that several jihadi organisations, including some Kashmiri militant groups, have formed a joint working group to target American and Western interests,” sources said.

An LT jihadi was arrested in Gujranwala district’s Maneecher Chattha village after a telephone conversation was recorded in which he got instructions about a new plan to kill the president. They talked in codes which the law enforcement agencies have now cracked. An Arab national, identified as Ghazanfar Ghazal, is also suspected of involvement in the suicide attack. According to intelligence reports, he was seen in the Jamaatud Dawa’s Mureedke complex.

Sources said 25 men had been arrested in Lahore since December 26. “Some arrested suspects have confessed to their relations with Al Qaeda,” sources said.

One of the important arrests was of a former head of the HJI office in Chauburji. He reportedly had links with Arab militants and was under constant surveillance by the intelligence agencies after he was first arrested in June. According to the intelligence sources, he was released after he made a deal to help catch the Arab militants.

However, once released he went to JA chief Maulana Fazlur Rehman Khaleel and told him of the deal. Mr Khaleel reportedly assured him he would not be arrested again, and helped him set up a seminary, Madrassa Baqyiat Shuhada, in Sabzazar. The intelligence sources said he had not kept his deal and remained in touch with the foreign militants. He was arrested on Saturday night because one of the main suspects in the suicide attacks on the president, Ehsan, visited him at his seminary regularly, the intelligence sources said.


the actual report of his jan 12, 2002, speech where he banned teh groups is below --
shrimate sadna jee as you can probably read for yourself it says that lashkar e tayba has been banned --

harish jee -- better catch hold of your pajamas before they burst into flames

---

mog aka shri veeresh jee -- bad manners to talk to someone in a foreign language jee



Lashkar, Jaish, TJP, TNSM & SSP banned; ST under watch: Political, diplomatic support to Kashmiris will continue, says Musharraf


By Ihtasham ul Haque

ISLAMABAD, Jan 12: President Gen Pervez Musharraf on Saturday announced a ban on five extremist groups and put another on the watch list with a view to cleansing the society of terrorism, sectarian violence and intolerance.

Addressing the nation on radio and television, the president talked about sectarian violence, terrorism and bigotry, and expressed his resolve to create tolerance and brotherhood in the country in the light of the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and the guidelines set by the Quaid-i-Azam and Allama Iqbal.

Gen Musharraf said that Jaish-i-Mohammad, Lashkar-i-Taiba, Sipah-i-Sahaba Pakistan, Tehrik-i-Jaferia Pakistan, and Tanzim Nifaz-i-Shariat-i-Mohammadi stood banned forthwith, and added that Sunni Tehrik was put on the watch list.

``No party in future will be allowed to be identified with words like Jaish, Lashkar or Sipah,`` the president warned. Only last year, he pointed out, 400 people had been killed in violent activities. ``We have arrested some gangs, including the Imam of a mosque, who were involved in sectarian killings, which justifies the banning of extremist parties,`` he added.

By March 23, the president declared, all Madaris (religious schools) would have to be registered and they could not function without obtaining a No-Objection Certificate.

In his hour-long speech, he said that foreign students and teachers would have to get themselves registered with the concerned government agencies. ``And if they are found without valid documentation and permission from their respective governments by March 23, they will be deported.``

Gen Musharraf said that announcing decisions was an easy task but to implement them was a real issue. In this behalf he assured that the police and judiciary would play their due roles to get hold of anti-social elements and bring them to book.

He said that he would soon be announcing ``speedy trial courts`` to be set up to try those who were involved in terrorism and sectarian killing. The sanctity of mosques and Imambargahs, he said, would be restored and the writ of the government would be established at all costs.

The president announced limiting the use of loudspeakers in mosques which would now be used only for Friday khutbas and wa`az. ``And if this facility is misused, it will also be banned,`` he added.

President Musharraf appealed to religious leaders to preach tolerance and make the country prosperous by imparting both religious and worldly education. He said a majority of Madaris was doing a great service by offering religious education free of cost and as such they were no less than the NGOs that enjoyed good reputation at international level.

``I am the first one to forcefully project the cause of responsible Madaris and as such I am their great admirer,`` he said. But, he regretted that some of them were involved in encouraging hatred, violence and terrorism, which, he pointed out, would no more be accepted.

``Today, Pakistan does not face any real foreign threat. But from within the country, we have lots of threats for which we have to have a new beginning to make Pakistan strong in all respects,`` he said.

Pakistan, he said, could very well take on to any external threats but was finding difficulties to put its own house in order.

He said the government would soon be promulgating an ordinance to regulate the functioning of Madaris. And the police, Nazims and Auqaf department would ensure the implementation of various rules to govern Madaris and bring to book all those who would violate the law of the land.

The president repeatedly said that the governance had weakened as there was no writ of the government and that time had come to take serious measures to rehabilitate institutions by halting the activities of religious extremists and other criminals. Without mentioning the name of any country, the president said: ``We should stop interfering in the affairs of others and stop using violence as a means to thrust our point of view on others``. He said people should convince others to change their ideas rather than using a threatening language.

He made it clear that the government of the day alone was qualified to give the call for Jihad as was very much enshrined in the teachings of Islam and the Prophet (PBUH), and that no individual or party had the right to do so. ``What kind of Islam you are preaching when you kill your own Muslim brothers here or in Afghanistan; how could the Taliban justify killing the Muslims of the Northern Alliance?`` he asked.

He declared that Pakistan would not be allowed to be used for carrying out any terrorist or subversive activities in and outside the country. He warned the foreign Muslims who were using Pakistan as their hub of activities against foreign governments. ``No way, we will not tolerate this any more``.

Gen Musharraf called upon Madaris not to get misused by political parties to carry out their agenda. Pakistan, he said, had become state within a state and it had been rendered ungovernable. ``But now this has to be changed and those who would not mend their ways should be ready for severe action,`` he warned.

APP adds: President Musharraf said that all mosques would be registered and no new mosques would be built without permission.

#254 by nb

[Well, you`re the expert on doublespeak and denying what you`ve said already.]

You`re forgetting that Mullah Omar jee is an `Assistant Editor`...in other words, he`s mastered the art of doublespeak.

Omar,
Do you think Veeresh knows all those languages? Wow.
Anyway the bit about Hindi is nonsense. You don`t need to learn Hindi, so why would you? It`s another country, for God`s sake. I don`t expect the Germans or Peruvians to have learnt Hindi, why should you? How is this Paki-bashing? What does it have to do with Pakistan`s Hindu population? I think it`s entirely appropriate. How and where have I spoken about things I know nothing about? You`re completely confused.
You did tell Sadna you couldn`t accept that Mushy had said that-is that not saying they made it up? Well, you`re the expert on doublespeak and denying what you`ve said already. The important thing now is that you don`t deny that Mushy said there`s nothing wrong with Lashkar. So Mushy just lied, it wasn`t SBS`s fault. Mushy knws nothing, Omar knows all.I never had Dawood in the same city as myself, your contacts are doubtless far better than anything I could aspire to. So how am I issuing personal threats?Besides, they can`t sue you for what you write here-all your compatriots insiting the Jews are responsible for everything from AIDS to the 11/9 would spend their lives in jail if people took website posts seriously. That`s why I said, say it in Dawn. I am not the baap of SBS, just a viewer!
Well, I did say you know everything-how dare anyone argue with you? Talk about narcissism and entitlement and grandiose fantasies of unlimited knowledge.