Role of Pakistan Army Under Musharraf Just Stinks

in practice, too, i think. :)

in theory yes i suppose

you realise we can go on forever?

exactly, stop it already!

#360 by nb on July 17, 2004 6:44am PT
the proof is on this board, but i don`t want to rub your nose in it, at least you changed your mind.

exactly -- kindly take the trouble to read it and stop with this i-dont-want-to-rub-your-nose drivel

the proof is on this board, but i don`t want to rub your nose in it, at least you changed your mind.

#358 by nb on July 16, 2004 6:31pm PT -- 00181949
you did say that previously. if you have realised the error of your ways, good for you! why was the prez making up stuff though?he needs to be more well informed.

actually sorry to disappoint u but i didnt -- u prob wished or presumed i did which in any case isnt proof that i did -- the proof u will find in reading my posts which are available on this board for all and sundry -- as for him making up stuff, im not his spokesman, please contact the presidency in islamabad or his military secy :)

you did say that previously. if you have realised the error of your ways, good for you! why was the prez making up stuff though?he needs to be more well informed.

nb: Omar, you did say you wouldn`t accept the interview as fact. -- uff this is getting to be such a bore nb jee -- i cant keep on clarifying myself to people who refuse to understand what im saying -- i didnt say any such thing anywhere i u bother reading what i wrote earlier -- i never said the SBS made anything up but did say that their INTRO was biased and that the LeT was indeed banned since jan 2002 --

``And accusing the SBS of making up interviews is what was slanderous and can lead to libel cases. `` -- sheesh -- i dont think i need to explain myself on this score since i never said any such thing -- ``

---

well im sure most of their feedback is from the general australian public --go figure nb jee --


``Of course, you`re trying now to make it all look like a joke, but what does become obvious is your own evasiveness and doubletalk. `` -- actually the joke is how u make up things and imply what i said which i never did -- if u have the time, which i certainly dont, go back and read my posts and see for yourself if i said anywhere that SBS ``MADE UP`` the interview -- no wonder u brought the libel thing up -- based on something that was never said but which u wanted me to say so u presumed that i must have -- how typical nb jee --

and by the way in my last post 353 , i already said that i didnt say anywhere that the SBS `invented` the interview -- u gotta read my posts completely nb jee before u decide to respond

Omar, you did say you wouldn`t accept the interview as fact. I talked of accusing the SBS of making things up, which you did do,not talking about me at all, that was never mentioned so I don`t know where that`s coming from. And accusing the SBS of making up interviews is what was slanderous and can lead to libel cases. What does bias matter when your own President says LET are freedom fighters,not terrorists? SBS, is in fact, thought to be too pro-Palestinian and too pro-Islamic terrorism by many people, judging from the feedback it gets and letters to the editor. Of course, you`re trying now to make it all look like a joke, but what does become obvious is your own evasiveness and doubletalk.

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#348 by mog on July 13, 2004 8:17am PT
A many lot of morons are helping Omar Quraishi use up office time properly.

Yes, I think Dawn should provide for readers an unmoderated interactive forum. It is today needed!

Vote for Omar to be in charge, but how he will moderate unmoderated? So he needs ahmedmadani with him?

Omar, truth be told, many times I want to tell you, dont use word ``moron``, please?

truth be told mog/veeresh, many times i want to tell you, please post under your real name and come up with better diversionary tactics -- as for the forum please write to my editor shri veeresh sahib -- altho i think any unmoderated forum will probably turn out to be as bad as this --



#353 by nb on July 13, 2004 7:42pm PT
Omar, you can call the ABC biased. -- sheesh -- the ABC was used as an EXAMPLE -- i called the SBS was biased -- man u r good at putting words into people`s mouths too -- i never said anywhere that they invented the interview -- please go back and read the posts -- why would i say that -- what i did say, in response to shrimati jee`s tirade, was that the laskhar was officially banned as of jan 2002 and that the intro to the interview was biased -- now please report me to the australian authorities -- sheesh -- what a loser u turned out to be nb jee -- dah ling the paper said something about mr gutnick and that makes sense -- i suspect shrimati jee or u are not that important that dawn say something about them -- as for dawn saying something about SBS well dah ling we have laid probably more severe criticism at the doorsteps of the US govt, of our govt (dawn`s editorial of today called the prime minister of pakistan`s actions ``very strange``) and have criticised the biases and prejudices (to us) of various media organizations -- and we have yet to be sued on that -- well i was made assistant editor when i was 28 and now im 32 so maybe who know nb jee -- but we dont have a position of editor in chief for dawn :(


#352 by nikki7777 on July 13, 2004 7:42pm PT
#347....MULLAH OMAR....And, your cry-baby ,whiny-assed opinion of tomorrow will be???......

You really missed me , didn`t ya????

nikki boy -- i will spell it nice and easy -- N

---

O

---

that is ENNNN

---

OOOOO

hahahaha -- dude must u make an ass of yourself like this all the time

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Omar, you can call the ABC biased. What you did was say the SBS had invented the Musharraf interview. I don`t need to send commandos anywhere-how typical to think of only the violent option. A court awarded Gutnick damages for something an American paper said about him because the paper was on the net and therefore accessible to Australia. But like I said, you`re not that important. Maybe when you make editor-in-chief?

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345.. that was a good one!

here is another..

Q:what is the full form of PIA?

A:Please Inform Allah!

A many lot of morons are helping Omar Quraishi use up office time properly.

Yes, I think Dawn should provide for readers an unmoderated interactive forum. It is today needed!

Vote for Omar to be in charge, but how he will moderate unmoderated? So he needs ahmedmadani with him?

Omar, truth be told, many times I want to tell you, dont use word ``moron``, please?

nikki man i said it before and ill say it again u`re an irredeemable moron -- now go look that up in the dictionary boy !

kaurasuch: ``Regarding Mahmmed`s life, character, etc. I do not know or care; for opposing view,
there is a website called WWW. FAITHFREEDOM.ORG ``

yes yes karwa we have been initiated into it thanks to shrimati -- it might as well have been run by the ultra orthodox shaas party or the VHP/RSS -- dude get real before u expect people to believe such websites to be credible --

#342 by sadna on July 12, 2004 7:13am PT
omar_r_quraishi #335
The question was not your opinion of the Australian interview, the question was is LeT still functioning under official noses.

dah ling -- ever heard of changing the goal posts -- well u just did dear

#341 by mog on July 12, 2004 7:13am PT
Hello Omar. Do you have any idea about launch of interactive space at The Dawn website soon? If not, why not? Something like unplugged or even this forum. Have you ever wondered why it is not so?

Go fot it.

-- if not why not ??? hain ?? errr im not the editor mog/veeresh jee so i wouldnt know -- actually shri veeresh jee why dont u email my editor and ask him this hain ? no i have never wondered `why it is not so` -- why have u wondered that it should be so?
u want to be its founding moderator???

#340 by Mantolives on July 12, 2004 6:55am PT
Omar...

Yaar stop playing into this Sadna`s trap... the world is not fair... and she knows how to conveniently hide behind her womanhood... I am sure you can`t do the same. One can`t even argue with Sadna... she rarely has a point and when asked to debate... she refuses to answer.

Let her wither away in her obsession with Pakistan... there are many theories that a number of chowkies, Indians and Pakistanis, have come up with about her obsession with Pakistan... but thats for a later time...

I really don`t want her breathing down my neck with `abuse abuse` again... I can`t take that kinda stress man.

yasser -- i know what u mean but i dont really mind it coz i do this from work and on slow days i tend to spend perhaps 20 mins or so extra -- it snot a problem for me at all -- actually quite funny when i compare to the people, including indians, that i meet and have met in the real world -- but yes i am amazed at how messed up some people can be --
im not going to base my views of india or indians in general on chowk if thats what you`re implying btw -- and btw she just changed the goalposts in her most recent post -- she was actually questioning my professional credibility when i told her that the lashkar was officially banned -- showed her the links and a rticles and now she is ranting about something else --

nb: ``You haven`t kept up with slander laws in Australia, refer Joseph Gutnick`s case.

please get real nb -- im surethe element of malice is crucial -- besides im pretty sure too that calling the ABC biased does not amount to slander -- and u forget that i sit in karachi pakistan -- do u plan on sending aussie commandos to pakistan -- and also, you`re telling me that u have never met an opinionated journalist --

sadna: ``That so much fuss is being kicked about admitting this point makes one go hm. `` -- actually i thought the fuss was in large part related to your refused to live and let live and to let things go shrimati jee


nb: Should I read your stuff? It`s not supposed to be all that good....`` hahahah i would be the last person to tell anyone to read what i write but when people start making judgments about my work without reading it i would tell them -- by work nb jee i dont mean unsigned editorials but actual articles, interviews etc, features, comment/opinion pieces --


nb: ``Thing is, you have shown that you approve of what was said as well. `` where???? what????

JG, don`t blame yourself, this guy is really sick-will get into the gutter, then pretend to be a peacenik. Professional opinion-he`s sick, how were you to know?
Responses of other respectable people such as world famous in Pakistan journalists more interesting.....

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I apologize to myself for once saying on some other board (in a fit of lovey dovey naive niceness) barachota zindabad.

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Hello Omar. Do you have any idea about launch of interactive space at The Dawn website soon? If not, why not? Something like unplugged or even this forum. Have you ever wondered why it is not so?

Go fot it.

omar_r_quraishi #335
The question was not your opinion of the Australian interview, the question was is LeT still functioning under official noses. Every reference I provided proved that it is still functioning under official noses.

That so much fuss is being kicked about admitting this point makes one go hm.

Omar...

Yaar stop playing into this Sadna`s trap... the world is not fair... and she knows how to conveniently hide behind her womanhood... I am sure you can`t do the same. One can`t even argue with Sadna... she rarely has a point and when asked to debate... she refuses to answer.

Let her wither away in her obsession with Pakistan... there are many theories that a number of chowkies, Indians and Pakistanis, have come up with about her obsession with Pakistan... but thats for a later time...

I really don`t want her breathing down my neck with `abuse abuse` again... I can`t take that kinda stress man.

Omar, I said`secular`, note the inverted commas.
Yes, Sadna is mature.
What are you talking about a hollow argument?
You haven`t kept up with slander laws in Australia, refer Joseph Gutnick`s case.
Gujjubania noticed what I said to him, he knows what I said-he posted the same stuff on 2 or 3 boards,unsurprisingly like you.
You continue to be clueless.

And being a Paki-basher isn`t the same thing as being anti-Muslim. All Muslims aren`t Pakis.
Should I read your stuff? It`s not supposed to be all that good....
Thing is, you have shown that you approve of what was said as well. That shows you in your true light.

Dear Dost Mittar...

I don`t agree with this apology of yours... You shouldn`t have apologized.

Had that Atif1 not slandered you and abused you the way he did while putting up ultimatums.... maybe this would have made sense... but Atif1 did slander you ... and it did lead to a huge fight.... now this apology will be taken as a sign of weakness... you are encouraging these cyber terrorists and fanatics like Atif1 to abuse more people, because they will think that it is easy to abuse one`s family and then get away with it.


Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the Prophet of Mercy. Atif1`s says his slander directed at you was because Prophet is above all... but this is just his nonsense... A man like Muhammad would have never agreed with a bigot like Atif1, or other fanatics on this board.
I will narrate my favorite story from the life of the Holy Prophet... Prophet Muhammad (SAW) ... an old woman used to wait for the Prophet to pass through a certain road... and everyday ... she threw garbage on him. One day it didn`t happen... the Prophet went to see the woman if she was ok. She was sick... Prophet (SAW) is said to have nursed her back to health... This is the true Prophet of Islam... I fought all day yesterday after reading Atif1`s posts... the last straw was his horrible ilog... that drove me mad. And here I find that you have capitulated?


-YLH

nb: I find it very interesting that of all the people so angry with dost-mittar, none except dionysus found barachota`s comments about sadna obscene.

dah ling that isnt the point -- where are the chowkies who find the posts by gujju, nikki etc obscene -- i remember gujju was caught basically saying that indian muslims need to get out of india -- and he didnt say this on some ilog or unplugged but on one of the main boards and dah ling not one of the paki bashers found anything wrong with it -- but then why would they, or they wouldnt be called paki bashers , or would they?

nb: ``Omar, I said if you said this in Dawn, you could be sued. I still stand by that.`` -- said what ? about the SBS interview -- well dah ling u obviously havent read any of my stuff -- and by the way its not so easy to prove an opinion to be slanderous, esp when there is no malicious intent behind it --

nb again: ``From someone who`s so proud of the fact that he doesn`t hide behind a nick because everythign`s so open, that really is strange-that you`re saying something here you wouldn`t for Dawn. Even for the kind of doublespeak, you`re doing well! `` -- actually good u mentioned this because it exposes the hollowness of your argument -- as you must have read by now nb jee i have written such stuff for my newspaper and actually i dont think it qualifies as slander esp when criticizes something in context and qualifies it -- as for the nick bit jee, its not that im proud but at least im not hiding behind anything, which surely cant be said for most people who interact here --

sadna: ``#273 by sadna on July 9, 2004 8:15am PT
Shri omarjee #271
Still spinning away?

It is typical dishonesty on your part to ignore the article I posted in #270, which appears in the current issue of The Friday Times. Your own interior ministry admits to your own National Assembly that the required measures against the banned groups have not been taken and that they still function with their organisations intact. But you claim not to believe your President why will you believe your interior ministry. Faisal Saleh Hayat said to the Washington Post, that LeT/Jamat ud Dawa was under watch, not banned. He is only Interior Minister, why will you believe him. It was enlightening to interact with a pathetic liar like you. Good bye.

tch tch -- the point as far as i remember was what musharraf told an australian channel -- but u being so full of venom and spite and i dont know what else brings in all kinds of stuff , like the TFT article -- it was not enlightening interacting with u shrimati jee -- i feel sorry for you -- really

#282 by nb on July 10, 2004 8:49am PT
Sadna, I sincerely wish to express my admiration for the way you handled that. I wish I was more like that-you`re obviously a very mature person.

surely u jest jee

#285 by sadna on July 10, 2004 9:39am PT
nb #282
Given that the self-declared variety of `liberals` can` t debate issues to save their lives(literally), it is invariably comes down to the same routine.

yes -- the routine being continue to wallow in one`s own drivel despite being shown the `light` haha

With Dost Mittar`s interference, we have attained the pinnacle of our relationship. Where do we go from here?

hmm -- kargil II???? hahahaha --i sure shrimati jee will make even this an issue now -- just watch barachota

I have read Mahabharat and Ramayana and there are many stories about Lord Krishna, Arjun, Lord Ram and Sitaji. -- add to that the upanishads, the gita, the rig veda, the dhammapada, the artha shastra -- and writers like raja rao, tagore, nirad chaudhri, nehru which probably more than all the paki bashing morons have probably read on even their own religion or nation

nb: ``. I agree Dost ji should not have said that, but he is unreasonably `secular`, to the point of being anti- Hindu at times.`` -- so to be secular is to be necessarily anti-religion for you???

#303 by dost-mittar on July 10, 2004 6:29pm PT
barachota:
``Do you think it is appropriate for Muslims to talk about Hindu deities and holy persons in the same manner?`` You can say anything about any gods -real or imaginery- to relieve your anger; it will not affect me, because I am not deeply attached to any faith.

dost sahib

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neither am i and u know that it isnt the point here --



#296 by AlephNull on July 10, 2004 2:58pm PT
Dost-mittar #279

You can see that some of the more loutish Pakistanis on Chowk are demanding a display of abject contrition from you for having mentioned you-know-who in a less than reverential manner. I sincerely hope you will not oblige them. They need to learn that religions do not deserve automatic respect; that in free societies religious notions and religious figures (living, dead or mythical – Sai Baba, Mohammad, Christ, whoever) should be as fair game for unfettered discussion as political ideas and politicians living and dead. Offending these thugs’ precious religious sentiments on a regular basis may be the only way to habituate them to civilized mores. I hope that vigorous ‘hatemongering’ Paki-bashing on Chowk will continue for the same reason.

aleph use of fancy words does not a bigot hide by the way -- as for religions not deserving automatic respect in `free societies` please aleph jee tell that to the VHP/RSS/Bajran Dal and the Sainiks -- hope u can convince them of such tolerance too -- lets have unfettered discussion on religion on sahara, sony and the other indian networks -- i remember this woman nikki something who had a much-hyped talk show on star plus some years back (late 90s i think) and it was taken off air immediately after a guest said something which was perceived as being derogatory of gandhi -- the show was canned immediately aleph jee -- so much for freedom of opinion in a tolerant free society aleph jee -- waisay aleph jee do u think such a tolerant `free society` exists in say rural UP, Bihar, Mizoram, Assam, Tripura, parts of Andhra, Orissa, much of rural West Bengal and Gujarat (esp Surat and Godhra)??

aleph jee again: ``Like jungle tribals demanding obeisance from human sacrifices to a deity.`` -- now would that be the jungles of assam or mizoram aleph jee??

#321 by barachota on July 11, 2004 11:50am PT
Mantolives #316,
You said:
``Learn from someone who has gone down that road... Don`t walk into Sadna`s trap.`` Sound advice! I don`t want to go anywhere near her trap. The girl is full of cr_p. The man`s a poet and don`t even know it!

heyyyyyy -- even i told u about that earlier OK !


#320 by nikki7777 on July 11, 2004 11:50am PT
Stop behaving like little children guys....

why would we.. we have you here to do that nikki boy --

#317 by barachota on July 11, 2004 9:39am PT
Manto #316,
Thanks for sharing the arrows in your back. I do regret roasting Sadna, but I had to teach her a lesson about profanity. Often people, such as Omar, make logical statements, that she uses the ``cr_p`` word to circumvent. She is full of hot air, and according to Dost Mittar we can say that ``she is full of cr_p!`` --

baraaaaaaaa you`re my best friend from now on ! :)
circumvent as she may try, she cant fool us dude --

#316 by Mantolives on July 11, 2004 8:38am PT

Yaar Barachota...
Sadna is a well known offender... This is not the first time she has gotten downright insulting... When one responds she is quick to hide behind her `womanhood`... She evades direct questions... makes the most horrible generalizations... but dude the only way to counter her is by putting up facts... she will be gone in two seconds... By attacking her personal life, you strengthen her... that is what she wants you to do. Then she can evade all the questions citing offensive language and respond with largely unfunny comebacks... Meanwhile a number of interactors... even some Pakistanis will come to her defence...

yasser -- dude what she does in her personal life is her business (doubt it if she has one except chowk) but she has made a profession (almost) of questioning and judging mine-- this after i made a point to post under my own name and list what i do on my profile page -- as for the pakistani interactors coming to her defence, probably the best example of the uncle tom variety here is missy zahraJ -- god she`s annoying --

barachota: ``Au revoire – Nikki wants to challenge Jang as the resident cunning linguist.`` -- hahaha i think nikki boy is the unrivalled king ... of u know what

oye harish potter jee kidhar ho -- bhaag gaye kya ? not gonna defend your bashers-in-arms?

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I find it very interesting that of all the people so angry with dost-mittar, none except dionysus found barachota`s comments about sadna obscene. So basically it comes to this: I will say anything I like, but you can say nothing. People get angry and look for ammunition when they are upset-that`s behind Dostmittar`s outburst, but barachota`s post was not even written in anger. His attitudes towards women are obvious-look at the way he referred to the unfortunate woman who had a date with him. How sleazy can you get? And now of course, he`s the victim, all hurt and offended, and most of his fellow Pakistanis, including self-styled libs, have no problem with what he said.

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too late now... Atif1... your wonderful vocab has been recorded... now stop sermonizing us on `respect for women` cuz clearly just like me (I am simply inspired by you) you don`t have any either.

barachota #various
I don`t think your acting as a troll to bait me and thus playing a double game on dost-mittar by pretending to be two different posters is the honest thing to do here.

atif1 #322
``But I request all chowkies to be cognizant of the line that should not be crossed while debating such matters. ``

I certainly do not recognise any line drawn by hypocrites like you. You want to impose your fanaticism on everyone you have your own country to do it in.

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Ladies and gentlemen....

Please don`t forget to read Atif1`s ilog addressed to Dost Mittar... because now he is pretending to be the upholder of decency and morals... but one should see him for what he really is..


-YLH

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atif:
I went to the unplugged (off-the-wall discussions) but couldn`t figure out which thread you were referring to. Could you please refer to the particular thread?

sadna:
You didn`t ask me to come to your assistance and you didn`t ask me to lose my judgement, so you have no reason to apologise to me.

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Yaar Barachota...

Sadna is a well known offender... This is not the first time she has gotten downright insulting... When one responds she is quick to hide behind her `womanhood`... She evades direct questions... makes the most horrible generalizations... but dude the only way to counter her is by putting up facts... she will be gone in two seconds...

By attacking her personal life, you strengthen her... that is what she wants you to do. Then she can evade all the questions citing offensive language and respond with largely unfunny comebacks... Meanwhile a number of interactors... even some Pakistanis will come to her defence...


Learn from someone who has gone down that road... Don`t walk into Sadna`s trap.

-YLH

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AlephNull #307
``Among that most exalted breed, privileged and well-connected Pakistanis, it is fully developed and extends far beyond religion to unsympathetic discussion of anything that affects their material interests.``

Reminds me of Arthur Miller`s The Crucible.

But it goes further. As a society, perfect respect is demanded for religion which is simultaneously used as an instrument of aggression. Like jungle tribals demanding obeisance from human sacrifices to a deity.

dost-mittarji #312
Sorry to have been the cause of your losing your peace of mind :(.

atif:
As a practice, I do not read people’s ilogs, including yours. I regard them as a private space in a public place. I have never written an ilog, and if I do, it will not be to reproduce something which I wish I had never written.
I had not realized that I had become somewhat of an icon at chowk. It is good that the icon now lies shattered. I hope, however, that I will earn some of your respect and those of others back in due course. But I would request you not to judge an entire group of people based on your changed perception of one person; inter-religious amity and Indo-Pak peace are too important for that. As far as practising hindus are considered, they would consider it a ‘ghor paap’ (grave sin) to disrespect even the peer of a local dargah, let alone Hazrat Mohammad.
You had asked me what I have learnt from this episode. Quite a few: one, Pakistanis are much more tolerant of the criticism of their country than of Islam; second, muslims’ attachment to their prophet is beyond what someone like me could comprehend; thirdly, I have discovered how an outburst in even cyberspace can cause so much damage, not only to others but to one’s own peace of mind.

barachota:
‘cr@p’ is not in the diplomatic vocabulary. But it is routinely used in the boardrooms of even govt. offices, but a sexual innuendo towards a female even at the office cooler will always result in strict disciplinary action.

Ok Atif, I see your point- I said assign, not instruct, but I see your point..

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Khamkhwa #302

{{and over a period of time one learns to divide them into two distinct groups of people and interacts with them accordingly ....}}

{{... one set of rules handles hatemongers and the other set of rules handles the normal guys like civilized human beings}}

Almost everybody is prone to being offended by some opinion somewhere. You cannot express an opinion without risking giving offence to someone or the other’s pestilential deeply-held religious beliefs. The contents of various ‘religions’ are arbitrary and they could well have contradictory tenets. ‘Hatemonger’ is a useless notion, not objectively definable in a non-trivial way. So ‘civilization’ could require going out of your way to not give offence – an exercise in futility IMO. Alternatively, it could entail recognizing that vigorous differences of opinion and even acrimony are a fact of life and to be regarded as a normal and healthy condition to be accepted rather than a pathological one to be deplored. I prefer the second alternative.

{{ dost-mittar for the last five years has been loved and respected by most of the civilized pakistanis for his impeccable behaviour, fairness and clear thinking ...}}

Dost-mittar goes out of his way to not tread on peoples’ toes. That may be his personal style and it is entirely his prerogative. I neither regard such behaviour as the pinnacle of virtue nor a lapse from this norm as a grave offence.

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Religion is the last resort of scoundrels and the Pakistani `liberals` on this thread have shown themselves to be scoundrels of the first order.

They will obfuscate deliberately and constantly to shield proven murderers, then act outraged when someone loses his temper and immediately apologises.

What a skewed sense of proportion and values.

Barachota #299

{{I will ignore your fabrications.}}

Nice try … the accounts of the murders of the aged Abu Afak, of the poetess Asma bint Marwan and of others in Medina who satirized Muhammad, are attested in the same corpus of traditions that have the account of the old woman throwing rubbish etc. They’re a few keystrokes away thanks to the marvels of Google. They can also be found in printed material.

If one account is to be regarded as a fabrication, why should not the other as well? What ‘really’ happened is lost but it is evident that the early Islamic historiographers did not regard political murders of people who posed a danger to Muhammad purely by virtue of their speech, rather than by imminent threat of physical violence, to be unacceptable. This is also the spin delivered by sympathetic modern biographers like Glubb (the most sympathetic gloss over these incidents entirely).

The entire scenario is massively ironic because while observant Muslims approvingly quote the story of the rubbish-throwing old woman, their actual behaviour when confronted with opinions disrespectful to their religious beliefs and to the person of their Prophet is all too often far more in the spirit of the Medinan purge. That is to say, they riot, or cyber-riot by throwing puerile tantrums on Chowk; rain down fatwas of blasphemy on the heads of the offenders, or produce the cyber equivalent, diatribes excoriating their opponents as ‘hate-mongerers’ for the crime of stating unpalatable facts.

In my experience this behaviour is far less pronounced in those Muslims who have grown up in a religiously diverse environment such as India’s. Among that most exalted breed, privileged and well-connected Pakistanis, it is fully developed and extends far beyond religion to unsympathetic discussion of anything that affects their material interests. Self-servingly self-styled Pakistani ‘liberals’ provide some of the most hilarious examples.

{{that would obviously hurt the feelings of many innocent Hindus, something you care a lot about.}}

#301

{{brutal behavior of a Hindu majority}}

The usual ignorant Pakistani presumption. Not all Indians are Hindus and not all non-believers come from Hindu backgrounds. In any case people whose feelings can be hurt by mere words shouldn’t participate on a forum for ideas.

barachota,
stop acting pious. What a hypocrite. You think you can say anything and no one should respond. I agree Dost ji should not have said that, but he is unreasonably `secular`, to the point of being anti- Hindu at times. You said on the other board, we can`t say anything because these Indians insult our Prophet.(I just noticed that automatically I put in a capital letter without thinking, such is the way I was brought up, to show respect). But what did it take to make Dost mittar do that- several obscene posts from you about sadna, who has never been obscene to you. So yes, that does mean if you start a yelling match, someone will repond at some time.
Pakistanis routinely insult Hindu practices-I don`t care, because it doesn`t change anything I do, and in the post-colonial environment, no white academic makes fun of it. But you have to stop playing victim-you started this.
Atif1
Dostmittar did not start this. You should also be angry with barachota for getting a normally peace-loving human being so angry. You are not a school teacher to assign tasks.

barachota:
``Do you think it is appropriate for Muslims to talk about Hindu deities and holy persons in the same manner?``
You can say anything about any gods -real or imaginery- to relieve your anger; it will not affect me, because I am not deeply attached to any faith. But as you say, it will probably affect others. As far as I am concerned, I think I am a hindu only by accident of birth and could easily have been a muslim or a christian if my parents professed a different faith. But I make clear distinction between religions and people; while I may be disrespectful towards religions, I am never so towards people of any faith or nationality who, I think all deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Which is why I have more than once expressed my regret for hurting your and others` feelings.

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... insulting gods and prophets on chowk is no big deal, it has been happening from day one...there are those who do it regularly and there are those who do not...and over a period of time one learns to divide them into two distinct groups of people and interacts with them accordingly ....

... one set of rules handles hatemongers and the other set of rules handles the normal guys like civilized human beings. the shock and surprise comes when one set of humans starts behaving like the other one and that is what has happened here. dost-mittar for the last five years has been loved and respected by most of the civilized pakistanis for his impeccable behaviour, fairness and clear thinking ... a sane voice in this madhouse...;)

... now what he has done or said in anger has been a shock to most of the pakis who would expect that kind of a retort from jay, harimou or gujjubania...but never never from dost-mittar... and that is all the noise mr alephnull..not what is said about the prophet but by whom...

.....meanwhile, enjoy dissing each other...

barachota (and others)
In the intellectual tradition where I have lived my adult life, respect for religious icons is not a MUST. We make irreverent remarks about Jesus, Ram and Krishna all the time. But I am aware of the muslim sensivity towards their prophet. I generally read my posts before I hit the ``submit`` button. This time I didn`t and so I am sorry that I hurt the feelings of so many decent people whom I deeply respect and who most likely respect me less now than they did before.

On the other hand, in the sphere I live, one never uses the kind of language to women you used in your post to sadna. In that sense, we (and here I mean west and not indians or hindus) respect women more than we respect gods/prophets/avtars.

Now, barachota, you said that I remained silent when sadna called you half-breed. Insults and barbs are a part of the chowk and I generally do not intervene. But when it comes to sexually degrading female interactors, whether it is sadna or farzana, I sometimes cannot resist. I did not see sadna call you half-breed -at least in the posts I read- (others did!) but I would not have reacted if someone had called me half-breed in the manner you did to sadna. She does frequently asks uncomfortable questions and she shows little respect for Pakistani liberals, but I have rarely seen her use abusive language. I dont think that any of her posts would have been rejected by any editor on the grounds of inappropriate language (which is perhaps more than I could say of my own objectionable post).

And I appreciate the fact that all your recent posts have used decent language, and here I make a difference between angry and indecent. And I hope that my post does not become the cause of your stopping to interact at chowk. That will make me feel real bad!

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Barachota #284

{{``He used to preach in a town call Taif. … Overcome by this unusual display of real compassion, the lady converted.``}}

A most affecting story; I’m sure it has brought tears to many eyes. However, a cynic would observe that it merely indicates prudent behaviour by the Man and perhaps even opportunism in a situation where he had no power.

It is more instructive to see how he behaved in Medina when he did have power and hordes of fanatical followers ready to do his bidding; how he dealt with dissenters and those who ridiculed him. The murders of Abu Afak and Asma bint Marwan (“Who will rid me of this turbulent woman?” followed by “A couple of goats will not butt their heads over her”) are relevant here. It is very amusing and ironic that Muslims who cite the first case ad nauseam as an example of ‘compassion’ rarely volunteer the others.

Dost-mittar #279

You can see that some of the more loutish Pakistanis on Chowk are demanding a display of abject contrition from you for having mentioned you-know-who in a less than reverential manner.

I sincerely hope you will not oblige them. They need to learn that religions do not deserve automatic respect; that in free societies religious notions and religious figures (living, dead or mythical – Sai Baba, Mohammad, Christ, whoever) should be as fair game for unfettered discussion as political ideas and politicians living and dead.

Offending these thugs’ precious religious sentiments on a regular basis may be the only way to habituate them to civilized mores. I hope that vigorous ‘hatemongering’ Paki-bashing on Chowk will continue for the same reason.

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hehehehehehehe.....

go zara si baat per barsoN ke yaraanay gaye
lekin itna tou hua kuch log pehchaanay gaye

;)

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P.s Dost Mittar jee: if all Hindus( stukay stay out of it) were to show their true colors under duress I wonder if this whole exercise is worth it:)-

nb #282
Given that the self-declared variety of `liberals` can` t debate issues to save their lives(literally), it is invariably comes down to the same routine.

Dost Mittar: For a person with a balanced head on his shoulder that was really uncalled for...I think I have said earlier that someone (cannot remember his name) posted a detailed explanation of circumstances involving marriage of Prophet Mohammad and Aisha...I had always admired you for you rationality and could not have imagined you joining the `tota brigade` chanting `mein naa.n maanoon` mnatra.. despite your apology I am deeply hurt with your outburst...not bc you are a hindu, or a fellow Punjabi, or a person who has always held on to reason...but bc for me this is the beginning of a very sad ending!

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Sadna, I sincerely wish to express my admiration for the way you handled that. I wish I was more like that-you`re obviously a very mature person.

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#278
Sorry for my outburst. My anger got the better of me. Sorry again!

#275
Disgusting. But can`t expect anything better from the follower of someone who showed little respect for the daughter of his best friend or his own daughter-in-law.

nb #276
They have to have a sex life first, no? :).

That`s right, call her enough names, preferably sex-related and hope you`ll embarass her into leaving you alone. Didn`t see her focussed on your sex life.

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#257
The NYT article I quoted on the Islamabad meeting of LeT was this one:
February 19, 2004, Thursday

FOREIGN DESK

India and Pakistan Set a 6-Month Timetable for Peace Talks

By AMY WALDMAN (NYT) 572 words

Shri omarjee #271
Still spinning away?

It is typical dishonesty on your part to ignore the article I posted in #270, which appears in the current issue of The Friday Times. Your own interior ministry admits to your own National Assembly that the required measures against the banned groups have not been taken and that they still function with their organisations intact. But you claim not to believe your President why will you believe your interior ministry. Faisal Saleh Hayat said to the Washington Post, that LeT/Jamat ud Dawa was under watch, not banned. He is only Interior Minister, why will you believe him.

It was enlightening to interact with a pathetic liar like you. Good bye.

Omar, I said if you said this in Dawn, you could be sued. I still stand by that. From someone who`s so proud of the fact that he doesn`t hide behind a nick because everythign`s so open, that really is strange-that you`re saying something here you wouldn`t for Dawn. Even for the kind of doublespeak, you`re doing well!

#268 by sadna on July 8, 2004 7:55am PT
omarjee #267
``u need to grow up and sometimes admit that blaming and accusing people of baseless things can sometimes badly backfire ``

Oh, is saying that your information and interpretation is wrong and you will not admit it, actionable?

Well, here is bad news I was being kind earlier. Based on your replies on this thread, I am forced to call you a pathetic liar.


yawn -- name-calling -- the refuge of someone who has no argument


sadna: ``Oh, is saying that your information and interpretation is wrong and you will not admit it, actionable?`` -- err no -- please read and re-read what iwrote and posted earlier shrimati jee -- i wasnt talking BS like u said i was -- i gave u the links clearly saying that the LeT had been banned -- jesus what other proof do u need --


nikki -- no

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/_news2.shtml

Interior ministry fails to take out extremist groups


M R Klasra
The ministry is all sound and fury signifying nothing



A startling confession by the federal ministry of interior before the Standing Committee of the National Assembly on Interior Affairs in the last week of June shows that the federal and four provincial governments and their law enforcement agencies completely failed to execute General Pervez Musharraf’s orders in 2002 to hunt down and eliminate seven extremist organisations.

In their presentations before the House Committee, officials of the ministry told the members that the security agencies were so slow to move against these groups that they gave ample time to the powerful leaders of these banned outfits to hide their activities behind the façade of ‘welfare trusts’.

Insiders say in most cases, officials, instead of quickly moving to act against these groups, crumbled under pressure from the terrorists.

On January 12, 2002, General Musharraf, feeling the heat of the events of September 11, 2001, as well as the December 13 attack on the Indian parliament, had ordered a ban on the activities of all such religious groups and parties in his now-famous speech on TV. These organisations included both jihadi and sectarian groups suspected of spreading violence in society in the name of Islam. General Musharraf had also ordered a major crackdown in the country to nab all the office bearers of these banned outfits to deprive them of their clout.

These facts were placed before the NA Standing Committee by the interior secretary when the committee met to discuss the law and order situation last June. The session was called in the wake of a series of bloody sectarian attacks in Karachi and Quetta.

Interestingly, this session was closed to the press even though much of the work of Standing Committees of both houses of parliament is now conducted in the open and in the presence of the press.

While the interior ministry now claims that it has started scrutinising all the extremist groups, it is hard pressed to answer the question of why its officials and subordinate agencies failed to move quickly enough after the ministry was explicitly ordered by General Musharraf to take out the extremist elements.

The result is obvious. Not only has the country seen a spate of attacks in recent months, according to the ministry’s own report, some of these groups have resurfaced and are now functioning as ‘welfare trusts’ Ministry officials also remain quiet about the outcome of the crackdown against the militant elements and their sympathisers following General Musharraf’s Jan 12 speech.

Interestingly, in the same briefing to the House Committee, the interior secretary conceded that the law enforcement agencies are under serious pressure from these groups and are finding it difficult to execute General Musharraf’s orders.

And yet, the ministry now says it is preparing to crack down on these groups and, according to sources, has even placed its plan before the committee members. How it intends to do so is unclear since the ministry bosses concede that the provinces and law enforcement agencies are not executing its orders in the desired manner. The ministry has asked the government to direct the concerned agencies and the provinces to execute all policy measures taken by the federal government.

In theory, ministry documents show it is in favour of indicting all those found involved in publishing and spreading of sectarian hatred. The ministry wants the government to follow a ‘zero tolerance’ policy by booking all such people under the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1997. The act was changed drastically by the military government in order to tackle the issue of militancy in Pakistan.

Further, ministry officials also want the government to nab all those people distributing seditious material outside mosques and follow the chain and prosecute them under the Anti-Terrorism Act as well.

The interior ministry is quite alarmed at the massive abuse of loudspeakers by the mosques. It says that these loudspeakers are being used to spread hatred and tension in the country along sectarian lines. The loudspeakers, say officials, are also furthering the cause of these banned outfits.

Officials believe that without a comprehensive strategy, merely banning the groups won’t do. “You can’t ban these groups but continue to allow the mullah to spread hate from the pulpit. The issue has to be tackled at all ends,” says an official.

Another problem area identified by the ministry is the collection of funds and donations by these banned religious outfits. This is mostly done by placing donation boxes at public places. “This practice has to stop,” says an observer.

The new plan, say sources, looks at all these issues and more. “There is a plan to identify foreign students who might be involved in sectarian violence in Pakistan,” says another official, adding: “Stringent measures are also to be taken to check arms smuggling by identifying the routes from which these weapons come in.”

This is all very well. But in all the noise about new plans to do this and that, the question of why this could not be done before despite explicit orders from General Musharraf to do so has gone unanswered. Indeed, if it is true that the ministry’s subordinate agencies are not prepared to heed its calls to put down these groups, it is unclear how the ministry will now be able to do what it has failed to do in the last two-and-half years.

Could it be that the ministry is making much sound and fury on paper to suppress these very questions and that there is still no serious resolve at the highest levels of decision-making to undo these religious elements, especially those that are involved in the jihad?

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omarjee #267
``u need to grow up and sometimes admit that blaming and accusing people of baseless things can sometimes badly backfire ``

Oh, is saying that your information and interpretation is wrong and you will not admit it, actionable?

Well, here is bad news I was being kind earlier. Based on your replies on this thread, I am forced to call you a pathetic liar.

shri harish: ``You didn`t deny you didn`t plaigarize. Thanks for admitting that you do the same, though. At least Arjun`s posts are spot on. I`m sure you don`t like that. After all who likes to see their country being taken to the cleaners?``


errrr harry potter jee -- one doesnt deny what one hasnt done -- boo! your tung pajama is on fire by the way .... and shri harry jee of course someone like u would think that shri arjun jee`s posts are ``spot on`` -- that anyways isnt my point in all of this -- its that your country has some pretty big problems too harry jee so try looking a bit inward for a change and dont get too upset if others point that out to u -- jai ram jee kee harry jee

harry jee again: ``nb, in other words, anything that shows Pakistan in its true light is anti-Pakistan. You don`t get that do you?`` -- er no harry jee -- any interactor who has a pathological tendency to post such stories all the while ignoring that many very bad things happen at home and who gets infuriated if such facts are pointed out would be perceived as being quite anti the country he or she is continuously posting with reference to --



nb: ``Not standing back, Omar. Stand back indeed. How pretentious can you get? I pointed out straightaway that you`d have to say it in Dawn, not here, so stop pretending you didn`t understand that and stop playing victim.`` -- a hint of confusion here but DONT bother explaining please -- not playing the victim at all -- i decide what i say and where i say and u decide whether u agree or disagree with what i say -- right nb -- isnt that the whole purpose of sites like chowk --


nb again: ``The SBS interview is not rebutted, Mushy contradicted himself. Your problem is with your President, not a news channel, but it`s easier and safer for you to blame the messenger. SBS is not anti-Pakistan. Pakistan does have fairly good PR, considering everything-better than say, the Saudis, who don`t seem to bother.
Do you even know what you want to say? `` =-- jesus -- u still dont get it -- the fact that i was allegedly making things up on my own stands quite rebutted doesnt it nb jee -- i dont have a problem with SBS at all and i think im quite entitled to think, if i want to, that their intro to the interview was quite disproportionately negative -- dont see why that should bother u so much nb jee --


shrimati sadna jee: ``So I fail to see what is the point you are making. I suspect you are doing your best to be like someone who will go to great lengths not admit his information and his interpretation of it was wrong. Your choice.`` -- dah ling u have failed all along in that -- its incredible that even after the news report has been presented to your highness you`re still blaming me -- sheesh sadna u need to grow up and sometimes admit that blaming and accusing people of baseless things can sometimes badly backfire --

nikki man -- you`re now more incomprehensible than ever

#262 by omar_r_quraishi

[cutting and pasting is what shri arjun jee is good at -- yes rabid paki haters like you harish jee would hate any pakistani newspaper -- and by the way mine is bigger than yours has been perfected by your comrades pundit jee --]

You didn`t deny you didn`t plaigarize. Thanks for admitting that you do the same, though. At least Arjun`s posts are spot on. I`m sure you don`t like that. After all who likes to see their country being taken to the cleaners?

[my objections to the sbs programme were nothing really except a comment that it seemed quite anti pakistan in its intro to the interview -- however wrong u might think my opinion is i do have a right to it nb jee ?]

nb, in other words, anything that shows Pakistan in its true light is anti-Pakistan. You don`t get that do you?

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Not standing back, Omar. Stand back indeed. How pretentious can you get? I pointed out straightaway that you`d have to say it in Dawn, not here, so stop pretending you didn`t understand that and stop playing victim.
The SBS interview is not rebutted, Mushy contradicted himself. Your problem is with your President, not a news channel, but it`s easier and safer for you to blame the messenger.
SBS is not anti-Pakistan. Pakistan does have fairly good PR, considering everything-better than say, the Saudis, who don`t seem to bother.
Do you even know what you want to say?

omar_r_quraishi #262
Well Hafiz Sayeed is still active as is his jihadi organisation which has renamed itself. On top of that Musharraf denies that the group is banned and insists it is on watch. On top of that the organisation is collecting money and propagating their jihadi agenda openly under the noses of Pakistani officialdom. I provided you multiple sources to confirm all these facts.

So I fail to see what is the point you are making. I suspect you are doing your best to be like someone who will go to great lengths not admit his information and his interpretation of it was wrong. Your choice.

shri harish jee (ad nauseum): ``#261 by harish_hyd on July 6, 2004 11:00pm PT
#256 by omar_r_quraishi

[-- they were refuted quite easily -- only if you had the brains to comprehend pundit jee --]

Mullah jee, It ain`t called rebuttal. It`s called the mine-is-bigger-than-yours exercise. Pardon me Mullah jee if my brains don`t allow me to understand your brilliant logic, but that`s how they understand it, at least in the civilized world. Curse the civilized world!

[harish jee -- better catch hold of your pajamas before they burs