Lesbians vs. Gays vs. Hinduism vs. Modernity?

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Romair:

I am pleasantly surprised to see that this time ur theory for homosexuality in Pakistan is not based on the [huge] disparity between salaries in civil and military. Neither did you shove down/up phenomenal achievements in IT sector of the Silicon Valley in relation to homosexual tendencies of IT-specialists.
Equally astonishing that the reasons behind junior military officers leaving Pakistan has nothing to do with their sexual inclinations.

What a progress.
Well done.

It is difficult to have a reasonable discussion of homosexuality because of all the rhetoric in our times coloring and disguising the issues. To describe homosexual acts as wrong or sinful invites being labeled homophobic or bigoted or worse. I am one one of those liberal persons as I got many gay friends one of my best firend is gay and I am totally `cool` with that because its alright I understand him in the end of the day its `live and let others live`, we always have been against things which are not usual thats in our nature. I have a great respect for karachiwala and romairs statements.
Lets See what Islam tells us abt. Homosexuality now,
The Qur`an and Homosexuality:
There are five references in the Qur`an which have been cited as referring to gay and lesbian behavior. Some obviously deal with effeminate men and ``masculine women.`` The two main references to homosexual behavior are:
``We also sent Lut : He said to his people : ``Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.`` Qur`an 7:80-81
``What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk.`` Qur`an 26:165
Both references relate to gay sexual activities; lesbian practices are not mentioned in the Qur`an.
The Hadith and homosexuality:
The Hadith are collections of sayings attributed to Muhammad. Many Hadiths (ahadith) discuss liwat (sexual intercourse between males). Two examples are:

``When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes.``
``Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to.`` (in reference to the active and passive partners in gay sexual intercourse)
There is at least one mention of lesbian behavior mentioned in the Hadith:
``Sihaq (lesbian sexual activity) of women is zina (illegitimate sexual intercourse) among them.``

Few observations/ comments
a) Most men are fascinated by Lesbian action. Admit it or not the lesbian ‘totas’ in the movie ‘Girl Friend’ are its main attraction for most guys and many would like to watch the movie for this particular aspect only.

b) Almost all heterosexual men hate to see guys making out. You will never find a homosexual scene involving men (gay) in any Adult movie made for normal viewers (not gays) while the same movie might contain many lesbo scenes.

c) I think most liberal fellows have no issues with gay men as their friends/ relative as long as they keep their sexuality to themselves. This does not mean that a gay person should hide his sexual orientation. It only implies that he should not harass or make guys around him uncomfortable through their behavior/advances. Most gay men that I know do not do that and are generally great guys and good friends. However there are always few exceptions and there lies the problem.

d) In most Western countries gays enjoy complete freedom and exercise considerable powers. They have adequate social acceptability and enjoy all other avenues required to lead a very fulfilled life (gay clubs / bars etc.). Considering the fact that their numerical strength is not too high, I believe that the gays have become the most pampered and powerful community in the West.

e) Marriage is a religious as well as a civil/ legal contract. In all the religions that I know there is hardly any room for gay marriages. Even if there is some concession granted by any religious body, the main struggle by the gay lobbyists is also in getting gay marriages recognized by the state i.e. legalizing gay marriage which would lead to extending the same legal framework/ rights to gay married couples as provided to the normal couples. This I believe is extremely controversial. First of all I do not understand the need for this. Gay couples can live together as life partners without any problem. The personal and marriage laws/regulations in most countries take into consideration the husband(man) and wife (woman) roles and responsibilities in marriage and can not be logically extended to same sex marriage. But the most important point is that this would lead to subsequent child adoption by gay married couples. And this is something unnatural and unfair to the child, i.e. being raised by 1) the parents of same sex and 2) who have unnatural and abnormal sexual orientation.

There are five references in the Qur`an which have been cited as referring to gay and lesbian behavior. Some obviously deal with effeminate men and ``masculine women.`` The two main references to homosexual behavior are:

``We also sent Lut : He said to his people : ``Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.`` Qur`an 7:80-81
``What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk.`` Qur`an 26:165
Both references relate to gay sexual activities; lesbian practices are not mentioned in the Qur`an.
The Hadith and homosexuality:
The Hadith are collections of sayings attributed to Muhammad. Many Hadiths (ahadith) discuss liwat (sexual intercourse between males). Two examples are:

``When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes.``
``Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to.`` (in reference to the active and passive partners in gay sexual intercourse)
There is at least one mention of lesbian behavior mentioned in the Hadith:
``Sihaq (lesbian sexual activity) of women is zina (illegitimate sexual intercourse) among them.``

HOW DO I SEE ISLAM`S VIEWS on HOMOSEXUALITY ?
Islam is probably the most rigidly and inhumanly anti-homosexual in it`s practices of all the world religions. The verses from the Koran condemning homosexuality are much clearer than those that the Christians use. In all Muslim countries and all areas where the Islamic Sharia law is enforced homosexuality is strictly illegal. All of Islam fits within the area of Christianity that we call ``fundamentalist`` with regards to sexuality. The debates in Islam about homosexuality are not about whether it is acceptable, but merely about how severe the punishment should be. So although there are liberal and strict elements within Islam with concern to homosexuality even the liberal opinion is the lesser of two evils.
Islam, however, is inconsistent and illogical. It simultaneously states that all homosexuality is a moral evil, a corruption... yet it also holds that the animals of the world have submitted themselves completely to Allah. Yet, in nearly all animal species we witness homosexual behavior. This must mean that it is permissible by Allah to be gay, and that animals who have submitted completely to Allah can therefore also be gay. Islamic tradition is wrong to condemn homosexuality as an evil, and in denying that homosexuality is natural they are ignoring the facts of the world, it is an ignorant religious belief equal to that of the Christians during the Dark Ages: Where truth is suppressed because it threatens tradition and the corrupt powers of organized religious leaders.
If those who submit to Allah are sincere, they must recognize Allah`s will: And such a will creates homosexuality, including homosexual people and homosexual animals, and it is not therefore the Muslims` prerogative to question this or condemn it.
So if you ar a good Muslim and a Homosexual :control yourself!!
or dont!!!

CONCLUSION:
Abrahamic religions have contributed to the most negative and destructive attitudes towards sexuality issues, especially homosexuality, but the liberal wings of some of these religions has adapted to the wide (European) acceptance of homosexuality. Many traditional religions reject the scientific, medical and psychological knowledge we have gained about sexuality and regard homosexuality as a ``choice`` or a ``moral evil``, these religions are themselves immoral and evil in their attitude, their attitudes cause hatred, bigotry, violence and oppression in the name of love or God. Homosexual communities have become accustomed to the ranting of religious fundamentalists and traditionalists.

Stuka wrote: ``Oh you`re quite welcome Jawahara. Speaking if formidable intelligence, did you go to the Musharraf School of Statistics? He is the only one I know of who throws around similar statistical samples. 90% Pakistanis are moderate, 97% are with me and the like.``

My two or three cents, if you please:

What is the connection between Jawahara and Mushy.

a: They quote numbers?
b: They are both from Delhi?
c: They are both Muslims?

Pls help me out here!

Second observations:

I hope veeru-arjun-nikki bug has not gotten into your system. I hope you realize that the ratio of sane vs. insane Indian interactors heavily favors the former. I would hate to loose another one of the latter!

Last observation:

The 99% could be considered if Jawahra was to expand the word `molest`

Most female and male children innocently fondle each other(boy-boy, girl-girl) that is hardly homosexuality...exploring one`s sexuality maybe

The sodomy in most cases is forced and is rarely consensual (non-adult sodomy) unless of course you are PM who like `em fresh. That again is not homosexuality.

There is a certain stigma attached to homosexuality in adults and they end up marrying just to save face and have children and a normal `family life` while they pursue their extra-martial homosexual actitivies quietly. Jawahara does have point about personal freedom, provided it does not affect other people. I don`t think that there is any connection between racial oppression and behavioral oppression. If Jawahara argument equating blacks and homosexual is to be granted, then other behavioral freedoms such as freedom to grow and smoke dope should be granted, after all it is a matter of personal choice and state should not take this liberty away. Right?

#83 by Romair

[I would be interested in finding out the stance of all our friends who wear their secularism on their sleeves, on the issue of gay marriage.]

This guy just cannot resist bringing India into anything and everything.

#82 by Jawahara
“for someone who claims to interact with so many gay people what is the root of your intolerance.”

What my views on Gay marriages have to do with tolerance or intolerance?

Now I am being accused of bigotry for pointing out that the whole gay marriage saga is nothing more than a hoax to make some money. You obviously don’t know enough gays to understand the issue in its right context.

This whole thing is politically instigated in an election year when one side is taking some beating in the polls. Some money grabbers show up and take up a court decision and play it up for the media to give breathing room to the wingnuts.

Politicians thrive on gullible. A politician in SFA shores up his credentials that were damaged in elections and another calls for the amendment in the constitution and here we have people betting their whole common sense on it.
These bleeding heart liberals have no sense of what they are saying and what they are doing except for accusing people of being Intolerant.
Yes! I oppose those gay parades too. Those ostentatious displays of vulgarity on the streets of cities where some decent folks and kids live. Comparing those hos parades to Macy’s parade is like comparing Julia Roberts of Pretty woman to Linda Lovelace of the deep throat.


#83 by Romair
“How can someone be secular and not support gay marraige?”

You sound like an amiable dunce!

#90 by stuka
``I suddenly feel very awkward and alone as a member of that tiny minority that grew up in India and was not molested.``

You were not! I thought the last one percent was reserved for the bearer of the news :)

hi,
farzana i am a relative novice on chowk. i read your article and was surprised at your comprehension of the vedanta way of life. you should first read the upanishads and other texts before you start going around town talking abopiut it. Mujhe lagta hai this is your farz as an indian(hindu or otherwise).as a culture which is 10000 years old we do not need to learn anything on spiritualism atleast from the moslems etc.u seem to be a NDTV fan because their viewpoint is as distorted as theirs.your viewpoint is that of a typical psycho case who would rather go and live with someone else`s family because your own family seems to you to be backward,oppressive and poor.

``You either believe all human beings deserve some rights regardless of their gender, the color of their skin, their countries of origin or their sexuality or they don`t.``

The first three conditionalities are not behavioral. The last one is.

``as usual, a very astute and mature comment from you. Thank you for not letting me change my view of your formidable intelligence. ``

Oh you`re quite welcome Jawahara. Speaking if formidable intelligence, did you go to the Musharraf School of Statistics? He is the only one I know of who throws around similar statistical samples. 90% Pakistanis are moderate, 97% are with me and the like.

It would be interesting if you could provide some sort of methodology used to derive a 99% calculation. I suddenly feel very awkward and alone as a member of that tiny minority that grew up in India and was not molested.

[(almost 99% of my friends and young relatives, male and female have been sexually molested in India)]

jawahara...
please revise your percentile....

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#83
``In a secular system, the state and religion are separate. That means no religious rule should have a place in state legislation.``

`Thou shalt not kill` is one of the Ten Commandments, which are religious edicts. Should the secular state have no law against murder for that reason?

No, because even secular laws are made based on peoples` values and people`s values can be religious or nonreligious. That is why laws regarding marriage or murder or euthanesia or abortion bear an often close correlation to religious values of people living in the said secular state.

The secular state only promises not to get involved in religious matters, it does not undertake to banish religious values from the population.

nhk#85
I did not only cross the line...main te kandh vi tapp giyaN:)
You are quiet right about desi conservatism.....it is almost impossible to break it for very long...eh aisa kambal ay jihnu jinna chhaddo ohna chimbRda.

Dulla Bhatti

I accept I went beyond the line - even for the sake of discussion! It was more in the spirit of killing the taboos rather than approval of deviencies.

And it is not right to put everything in black & white since we all are inherently culturally still quite conservative; regardless of our pretentions.