The French Engineering Education System

Irfan:

Is Computer Sciences considered a part of engineering in France or a part of Liberal Arts and Sciences (as it is in USA, alongwith Math)? If someone wanted a Ph.D in Comp. Sci (not the hardware side of Comp. Eng, but software) would they go through high shool + 2 years (Bachelors type) + 1 year (Masters) + 3 years (Ph.D.) = 6 to 7 years for Ph.D.

You are correct in stating the problems of the US high school system. However, at the University level, I really don`t think, there is any comparison. Just the number of universities in the USA is so gigantic, than no one can match the research. Secondly, so much of the US research actually occurs in the universities, themselves. Thirdly, the USA atrracts the best and brightest students and professors from all of the world. In my graduate program, I would say 75% of the student were foreigners, as were over 50% of the professors. This goes well beyond the top 20 universities.

The main problem in the US univ. system that I see is that it is a two-tier system. Some of the top universities are just too expensive for a normal student to attend; even though they give a lot of scholarships. While in places like Canada (and I assume France), all the universities have almost identical tuition. The govt. greatly subsidizes the top universities, and gives a lot of loans i.e. if you have good grades, you will get in and make it through any universities.

My knowledge is limited to aviation and comp. sci (and math to some degree). In aviation, as I mentioned France is a hi-tech powerhouse. It`s locally and jointly designed aircraft (like Airbus series, Mirage series, Rafale etc.) compete with the top of the line US aircraft.

However, in the software side of IT, France is nowhere to be seen. That is because the USA completely dominates the product side of IT. Other than SAP, Checkpoint, CATIA (from French aviation) and Iona, I cannot really think of many major products (out of hundreds) that are developed outside the USA. Even India, with so many engineers, and China, have not been able to produce any products that are in the software mainstream. They are all into services.........

Romair,
I`m sorry, but you have an infuriating habit of making the most absurd pronouncements with such an air of authority.

As far as PhDs are concerned, French and German Phds are way ahead of everyone, including the USA. The USA in turn is way ahead of the UK. To get a Phd in Germany, in particular, really means something. US universities, on the other hand, recieve much more money than Europeans ones for research, and as a consequence the Americans are ahead in experimental research and hardware development. In theoretical research and computational science there isn`t much difference. Perhaps the Europeans are a little ahead.

America wins just over half of all Nobel prizes. A figure proportional to its percentage of the population of the Western world. Half is very good, but is very away from `all` as you absurdly claim. But most importantly, in recent years the vast majority of `American` Nobel prize winners were people born, trained and educated outside of America. In 1999 every single `American` Nobel prize winner was a non-American. Hardly evidence of the greatest of the American education system.

America invents everything?? This is your most outlandish claim. Outside of computers (which admitedly is a very important industry), America doesn`t invent or make anything of any use to anyone. All of the great innovations in electronics, cars, mobile phones, etc are made in Japan or Europe.

One of the greatest industrial and scientific inventions of that last few decades is computer assisted tomography and its various related technologies like MRI. The foundations for CAT were laid by one man in England in the early 70s, and since then England has had an equal share in developing CAT technology and related ones like MRI.

The world does not revolve around IT, romair. And Pakistan`s decision to invest so much money on IT was a catastrophic miscalculation. We need scientific journals not internet cafes, more physcists not programmers. More people developing codes for condensed matter calculations not accounts packages.

Freethinker,
Yes it`s true, in our country a PhD is considered to be an end in and of itself. Whereas in reality it should be used as a point-of-departure for a life in research, as it gives you a visa to join that select group.

Malik99,
Yes it is true that Germans are very famous for engineering. They are renowned for their efficiency and work ethic. But my point was, and still is, that the French are not far behind, in fact in some areas they are world leaders (telecommunications for example).

It is true that more and more Pakistani students are heading for France (in Europe as well). Last year we were 51 students who came here, this year I am hearing that there are close to 100. Your question of US versus French education I will address in the next
section.

As far as the question of industry to absorb graduates that is a catch-22 situation. It might be said that we need a steady outflux of quality engineers to uplift the industry. Therefore, I don`t think that we should deprioritize education because there is no absorption
capability.

France does have very strong unions and labor strike problems, but they tend to affect production and service industries and not high-tech because that is an intellect driven enterprise rather than manpower driven.

Romair,
Multiple issues. Starting from the top. A PhD in France takes a minimum of 8 years after high-school, no way to go around it. I have spent over a year here, and am currently in a PhD program, so this is first-hand information. Apart from that, what they told you about getting into a university straight after high-school is correct. But keep in mind that in France, universities are not authorized to give an engineering degree, that can only be done by the elite ``grandes ecoles`` of engineering studies. The fact that those people told you they were from universities means that they did, in fact, not attend engineering schools (which was the point of my whole article anyway). In France there is no concept of a bachelor`s degree in engineering, the only degree you can get is a diplome d`ingenieur which entails 5 years of studies after high-school, follow it up with a PhD that takes a minimum of 3 years and you have the resulting 8.

Yes, in IT, France is lagging behind the US, far behind. But, the good thing is, they have recognized this, and are actively pursuing it. With their vast educational resources, they will be able to carve out a niche for themselves. In fact, in some fields of computer sciences/engineering France is quite advanced (real-time systems is one area that comes to mind). Also, I believe we in Pakistan have to get off the IT bandwagon because it is old news. We need research in every area, be it engineering, applied sciences, pure sciences or social sciences, otherwise we will go nowhere.

Now coming to the US vs French education comparison. Again the issue has many levels. If you want to look at basic education, I believe the US is more messed up than any other first-world country. Their schools and their education system is absolutely a mess. Europe is far better in that respect. It is really easy to gauge the quality of basic education of a country; just have a 2 minute conversation with an average person in the street. In that respect I have had interaction with Europeans, and with Americans, I have found Europeans to be much more cultured, aware and sensible.

Higher education is a different ball-game. I will be the first to admit that MIT, Caltech, Stanford, CMU, Berkeley etc. are by far THE best universities in the world. But then you have an entire gamut of universities that are by turns, good, average, below average, and just plain aweful. I have had exchange students from America as classmates, even from some very good universities, they were always good, never at the top. I believe that after the top-20 ranked universities in the US, things go south, and they go south FAST. A simple example, every year about 120,000 students give the competitive exams to enter engineering schools, the top 400 go to the most prestigious one, Ecole Polytechnique, that`s a selectivity rate of 0.33%. So you can guess what the quality of those students will be. Also consider that most engineering schools have a student/teacher ration of 10/1. All this for 70 euros a year, I would say it`s an amazing deal. Which is why I gave up a position at a major US university to come study here.

Regards,
Irfan.

Irfan,

A very good article. Could you expand on some more areas for me:

- Internships: These seeems to be a more intensive system of internships (``stage``). Everybody seems to spends atleast 6 months doing a ``stage``. Also how does the CSNE system fit in?

- I have often heard of the three levels of engineering schools. For example the ``Ecole Superior`` schools or a school like ``Physics et Chemie`` is the highest level, ``SUPELEC`` aso might be. Schools like ``Centrale Paris`` or ``Centrale Lille`` seem to be the next level.

- How do education at ``specialized`` schools like SUPELEC or ``Ecole des Mines at Nantes`` differ from ``general`` engineering schools like ``Centrale Paris``.

- The ``university`` system (University Paris VI or university Marie et Curie) seems to be quite seperate than the engineering ``Ecoles``. Could you explain the relationship better.

Interesting article.

I worked with a large team of French software engineers, on a research-type project, a while back. It was interesting to see that every third one of them had a Ph.D level degree. After discussing this with them, their explanations of the curriculum were a bit different than yours.

Apparently getting a Ph.D is France is quite a bit easier than getting one in the USA. They told me that they go from high school, straight to college, and in two years get a Bachelors (even in CS; which in Pakistan takes three to four years). Then they get a Masters in a year or year and a half. And then a Ph.D. In essence, in six or seven years, they have a Ph.D. Within this time one can only get an MS in USA.

The other interesting part was that like all of us desis, they were also trying hard to get a Green Card.....I found that odd.

In IT, France is nothing great. Don`t really know of any big French IT companies. In IT the top country, by a gigantic margin is USA. The other countries worth mentioning are Ireland (for its software product exports), Israel (for its IT entrprenuers), India (for the number of IT engineers it produces) and China (for its huge market). The only three countries with software companies in the top 20, other than USA, are Israel, Germany, and Japan; one each. (France has one also, but it is actually an aviation company, with an IT product).

The are quite good and big in telecom apparently, though.

In other engineering areas, of course, France is big. In aviation, the conglomorate Airbus is taking on Boeing. France`s defence aviation industry products, are second only to the USA. Dassault is very hi-tech. Infact, France`s most well-known IT product, CATIA, is made by Dassualt. Pakistan and India are big purchasers of Dassault`s aircraft. In fact, PAF has the most Mirage aircraft in the world now (I think); even more than France - albeit of the older variety. And India is becoming a major purchaser of the very expensive and very new Mirage 2000.

Don`t know about the other areas.

But, in term of education, I am very convinced nothing matches the USA at the university level. It is head and shoulders ahead of the rest of the world. Americans get all the Nobel prizes and invent everything. The smartest Americans are in academia and in business (the stupidest ones being in foreign policy).

I don`t know if Pakistan can or should copy France (or even USA). It needs to copy third-world countries that have made it big at the university level in particular fields. It could copy India for IT education, Russia(?) for pure sciences, etc.

Been running into a lot of software engineers from Iran. They are quite good (both guys and girls). Don`t know what the maulvis have set up there, but it seems to doing ok in the education department.

Irfan - excellent write up! Before I read this article, I did not realize that French have such intensive and well organized engineering program. I suppose the marketing of french culture is such that one thinks of it as a bastion of arts, social sciences, literature, fashion, and entertainment. But ENGINEERING??!!!

Now, not sure if you would be able to answer this, but i was interested in knowing how does French engineering program compares with that of German. Interestingly, the terminologies like ``german engineering``, ``german efficiency``, and ``german precision`` are much more popular in common folklore than ``french precision`` or ``french efficiency``.

I have been hearing more and more about Pakistani students going to French universities lately for engineering education - particularly Telecommunications engineering. I also know that Alcatel in Islamabad was at one time sending a lot of their engineers to France for training etc. Could you tell us if you have observed an explosion in Pakistani students at french universities? Is this in any part attributed to difficulties in getting US visa after Sept. 11? Or is it just that Pakistani students PREFERRED France over US for its better engineering program.

Lastly, a good education system also needs to be supported by a good surrounding industry where the graduates of these programs can find jobs and use their skills. Do you see any frustration in the French engineering labor market in that regard? From what I have heard, the French engineering industry over the 50 years or so has been dragged down by draconian unionized labor regulations.

Look forward to your comments.

Regards

Dear Irfan Hamid:

Your article is a breath of fresh air. I am pleased that our Pakistani students and teachers are getting exposed to the western institutes of higher learning and they feel excited about it. It`s not that they were not going to the western universities for higher learning in the past but then by and large the objective used to be to bag a Ph.D. and be done with it. The spark of excitement usually was not in evidence. A research degree is indeed the stepping stone for doing research; it`s not the end in itself. Real knowledge is generated in the western universities.

Mohammad Gill