Understanding Sanatana Dharma

seedy

its you who is dalit, not we all (compassion or cynical claim of compassion notwithstanding). i dont see any glory in acquring a dalit identity.

here is a new site for you to forage (something other that dalitistan). it states that India has 200 million dalits. numbers on this site are a little confusing and it does not give a source. it says that of 25 million christians, 20 million are dalit, and there is a lot of stuff about dscrimination in the church etc.

http://www.dalitchristians.com/Html/survey.htm

#731 by JohnGalt on July 19, 2004 10:47am PT
omar qureshi #720
Thank you. That was very enlightening.

you`re very welcome John :)

Hey barachota, I`m really sorry to see you go - you wrote some nasty posts towards the end but I prefer to think what we saw in the beginning was your real face - not that it matters what the hell I think of course - anyway, goodbye - go in peace.

(though I hope you change your mind
take tahmed`s advice
drop the hate mask
and stay on -
your earlier posts were witty and intelligent - I enjoyed reading them.)

Godhra: Was it Gujarat`s Reichstag?

By J. Sri Raman

Monday 19 July 2004
Chennai, India - Godhra was a place that figured prominently on the political map of India`s fascists till the other day. Today they wish they could remove the wayside station of Gujarat from the country`s railway map at any rate.
Till the other day, they kept reminding everyone of the railway arson in Godhra every time anyone spoke of the Gujarat carnage. Today, when anyone mentions the place of searing memories, the same fascists advise everyone to forget about the past.
Especially when India`s Railway Minister Lalu Prasad mentions it. And when he mentions it to announce an inquiry into the incident of arson that preceded a large-scale and state-abetted massacre of Gujarat`s minority community.
The reaction to the announcement by the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), evicted from power in the recent general election, carries forward a classical fascist campaign against democracy. A democracy that has not delivered the goods for them.
They launched the campaign with an ``anti-foreigner`` offensive in a flagrant violation of the rules of parliamentary democracy. In a show of extra-parliamentary strength, they stopped the elected leader of the party and the alliance wining at the polls from becoming the Prime Minister. They went on to break another basic rule of the game. Questioning the acknowledged privilege of the Prime Minister to choose his own council of ministers, they have been clamoring for the sack of ministers they call ``tainted`` on the basis of unproven criminal charges against them. Now, they are up in arms against a departmental inquiry ordered into the incident of arson - after a delay of nearly two and a half years.
Godhra, by now, is a household name to Indians after all the horrors that originated there. For the uninitiated, the whistle-stop station in the western State witnessed the prelude to the grisly pogrom unleashed on the Muslims of Gujarat for about four months in 2002.
It was a fateful February 27 when the Sabarmati Express pulled up at the small station with too many Muslims for its own good. The train was carrying quite a few `kar sevaks`, free-labor volunteers, of the Ayodhya movement. The movement, with former Deputy Prime Minister L. K. Advani at its head, had led to the demolition of the Babri Mosque a decade earlier in Ayodhya, considered the birthplace of Hindu deity Ram.
The movement aimed to ``restore`` a Ram temple over the mosque`s ruins. The `kar sevaks` formed one of the many batches that had carried ritually sanctified bricks for the temple-building to Ayodhya and were returning to Gujarat in religious-triumphal fervor. We will pass over stories of their ebullient conduct with Muslims at all stations - with the reported instances including beard-pulling and attempts at unveiling.
The instant version of the tragedy, spread rapidly through rumors and unquestioning official reports, was clearly an attempt to trigger off a reaction of mob fury. The local media and the fascist mouthpieces hurried to tell Gujarat and the country that the Muslims had committed a horrendous crime against the majority community.
A stone-throwing Muslim mob - the story ran - had surrounded the train in a matter of minutes, poured cans of kerosene on the compartment of `kar sevaks` and set it on fire. Fifty-nine occupants of the compartment, including women and children, were burnt alive, according to propagandists calling for revenge.
The story set entire Gujarat aflame for months. BJP chief minister Narendra Modi handed the State over to pillaging hordes of the `parivar` (the far-Right `family`). The state-aided massacre claimed an estimated toll of 3,000, mostly Muslims. We have no definite count of the women of savage gender crimes. No estimate, either, of the crippling economic damage inflicted on the minority community.
Harsh Mander, a sensitive officer of the Indian Administrative Service, who resigned in protest against the pogrom, was among the first to give us samples of the fascist savagery unleashed. He cited the case of a woman eight months pregnant whose assailants: ``slit open her stomach, pulled out the foetus and slaughtered it before her eyes``. He talked about ``a family of nineteen being killed by flooding their house with water and then electrocuting them with high-tension electricity``. Similar were cases of liquid petroleum gas (cooking gas) being released into houses and lighted matchsticks tossed in. And many, many others.
The Modi regime has continued to deny the victims justice. First, it arrested the accused in the Godhra case under a special anti-terrorist law but spared their counterparts in the Gujarat cases similar treatment. It proceeded, in the Gujarat cases, to appoint as public prosecutor persons who were proud members and office-bearers of `parivar` outfits that have commended the carnage in public. Witnesses have complained of intimidation by the police and the `parivar`.
The Supreme Court of India has had to transfer outside Gujarat the Best Bakery case, about the burning down of a bakery unit of that name along with 14 persons working there in Baroda (a city of Gujarat) on March 1, 2002. Other victims, too, are demanding a similar transfer of their cases.
It is Godhra that has been cited in justification of all this. Modi flaunted his bad physics and worse arithmetic by famously remarking, ``Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.`` The refrain of the top BJP leadership of the then-ruling federal coalition has been: ``Who started it?`` Both, former Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee and his then-deputy have repeatedly asserted that there would have been ``no Gujarat (carnage) without (the) Godhra (arson)``.
But the question is: Did Godhra happen at all? A Godhra of the fascist propaganda? The proposed inquiry reopens the question, and the `parivar` is clearly panicky.
Others have raised the question before the Railway Minister. Gujarat`s own Forensic Science Laboratory, in its report of May 17, 2002, revealed that the compartment was set on fire from inside, though the propaganda was that the `kar sevaks` had shut and bolted its doors to bar entry by a baying mob.
A team of independent investigators found, six months later, that many of those reported killed were still alive and that only four of the slain were `kar sevaks`! A door-to-door survey by railway officials, too, has led to the same finding. This raises the other curious question: whose were then the bodies wrapped in white displayed for the media cameras as the dead of Godhra?
Lalu Prasad has pointed out, very pertinently, that the previous government never made the official forensic report public. It had also never set up its own inquiry into the incident as required under rule and the previous Railway Minister had refrained from visiting the scene of the incident. The excuse offered is that New Delhi then did not want to interfere with the inquiry by the State government under impartial Modi!
The BJP and the `parivar` have threatened to take to the streets to try and stop the inquiry. The question of questions is: will the government summon the political will to persist with the inquiry?
Godhra, meanwhile, should sound a grim warning to the entire country against swallowing in a hurry other BJP-`parivar` stories that sound similar. Like the ones from the Gujarat police about the alleged terrorists, including a teenage girl, whom the cops killed before they could assassinate Modi. Of this, however, some other time.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/071904K.shtml

Reality Check

In apology of Islam

Sir: I write in reference to Arifa Noor’s “How Islam became synonymous with violence” (Daily Times, July 19).

In case of Islam, the question of violence cannot be separated from the corpus which lays the foundation of Islam, that is, the Quran and the Sunnah. If these sources have anything to say on the matter, then the virulent and violent strain in Islam is unmistakable. Indeed it may even be argued that the violent nature of Islam represents the essence of the whole.

The fact that Islam was spread by force right from the beginning is a historical fact which cannot be pushed under the rug through glib rehashing of Islamic jurisprudence using convoluted injunctions from one or another magnum opus of one theocrat or another.

Ms Noor wants to allow this discussion but then by omitting the foundation of her faith she essentially closes the door to objective and fair discussion of the subject. Indeed, no reform is possible in Islam or among its adherents as long as people like Ms Noor are not willing to scratch the surface to unearth the blood-smeared bedrock on which this faith was constructed.
RAJA WAHID
New Jersey, US

#716 by harish_hyd

When did Genghis Khan embrace Islam? Was it a posthumous conversion? Thanks.

#722 by tahmed32

[You are dead wrong: None of these individuals was a suicide bomber or a suicide anything.]

On the contrary, you are the one who`s dead wrong. I never said any of these individuals was a suicide bomber. Comprehension problems?

[Furthermore, far from being a muslim, Genghiz Khan was the worst enemy of the muslims.]

Exactly the point I was making. That someone would soon declare that these barbarians were never Muslim.

[Timur the lame was a muslim in name, but his worst enemy too was none other than the ottoman emperor (a ``fellow`` muslim) bayazid whom he defeated in battle and took prisoner.]

So what`s your point? We have had Muslim ruler fight Muslim ruler in the sub-continent as well, but just what does that prove? A couple of examples of Muslim chivalry cannot be treated as the norm when there have been countless examples otherwise.

[but it is also generally recognized that for centuries the muslims were the torchbearers of human progress, and among the most tolerant of societies]

Now when was that? The history of Islamic societies is littered with gore and blood, and non-Muslims have borne the brunt all along. You are only fooling yourself and no one else when you say that.

[You need to educate yourself a bit, I think before you start making such ignorant assertions.]

And you need to be objective before you try to defend the indefensible. Just because you refuse to see the point doesn`t mean someone is ignorant, but clearly shows your ignorance.

Vasudev Kutumbakam!

One interpretation:
... the universe is not a maze to be navigated; it is a baby (in a family) to be brought up. When we give it love, clarity, and opportunity, we raise a child to be a joyful, giving, successful adult. This is the opportunity we have to farm our little patch of space-time.

Yog -> Seeking Union ... first may be of Body, Mind and Javatma and then to Paramatma (Vasudeva, the universe)

If some one is more interested in an attempt to put what sages had conveyed in todays terms and a thought process suitable for post industrial world, here is a good attempt on path to enlightenment
http://www.memecentral.com/Level3.htm

Colloquial Meaning by a Sindh Ki Beti
http://www.dalsabzi.com/Mantras/vasudeva_kutumbakam.htm
Dont forget her bio http://www.dalsabzi.com/about_dal_sabzi.htm

Finally, Oh Bhagwan (Allah/Lord) give me company seekers of truth but deliver me from those who say they found it.

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re:#709 by Sidhibaat
Ha, ha.
Now, we must hear pearls of wisdom from Pat Robertson!
Looks like he is one guy in USA who talks to God. Or at least he pretends he does!
``Gordon Robertson (his son): ``Wherever you find this type of idolatry, you`ll find a grinding poverty. ``
Papa did not teach Gordon Robertson famous biblical quotes:
``Looking at his disciples, Jesus said: ``Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
Luke 6:19-21``

Another quote:
``Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?
James 2:5``
Poverty has nothing to do with faith or spirituality. In fact, yogis have been saying for ages that it is easier for a poor man to advance spiritually than for a rich man.
Sridhar

sidhibaat: tennis and boxing requires a certain amount of skill and talent. exchanging insulting posts requires nothing other than a stupid mind and time to waste.

interesting article from TIME on the tension between Sufism and orthodox Islam in India and Pakistan.

What you must understand is this,`` said Amin, stroking his long, straggly beard. ``Sufism is not Islamic. It is jadoo: magic tricks. It is superstition. It has nothing to do with real Islam.``

Amin ul-Karim and I were standing outside a kebab restaurant among the medieval lanes of Nizamuddin, my favorite part of New Delhi. Clouds of charcoal smoke wafted into the air, and the scent of grilling meat floated out over streets bustling with pilgrims, madrasah students, sellers of rose petals, little boys playing cricket and beggars seeking alms.

To one side lay the destination to which the crowds of pilgrims were heading: a warren of alleys and bazaars leading toward the shrine of India`s most revered Sufi saint, Hazrat Nizamuddin Auliya. Nizamuddin was a 14th century Muslim mystic who withdrew from the world and preached a message of prayer, love and the unity of all things. He promised his followers that if they loosened their ties with the world, they could purge their souls of worries and directly experience God. Rituals and fasting were for the pious, said the saint, but love was everywhere and was much the surest route to the divine.

Yet only a short distance from the shrine towered a very different Islamic institution, one that embodied a quite different face of Islam. The merkaz is a modern, gray, concrete structure seven stories tall that houses the world headquarters of an austere Islamic movement called Tablighism, to which Amin belongs. The Tablighis advocate a return to the basic fundamentals of the Koran, and greatly dislike the mystical Islam of Sufism, which they believe encourages such un-Koranic practices as idolatry, music, dancing and the veneration of dead saints. This was certainly the view of Amin, who, when I met him, had been busy trying to persuade passing pilgrims to turn away from their destination. ``I invite these people who come to Nizamuddin to return to the true path of the Koran,`` he said. ``Do not pray to a corpse, I tell them. Go to the mosque, not a grave. Superstition leads to jahannam—hell. True Islam leads to jannah—paradise.``

``What sort of paradise?`` I asked.

``It is beyond all human imagination,`` said Amin. ``But there will be couches to lie on in the shade, and rivers of milk and honey and, cool, clear springwater.``

``What about the Sufi idea that God can also be found in the human heart?`` I asked.

``Paradise within us?`` said Amin, raising his eyebrows. ``No, no, this is emotional talk—a dream only. There is nothing in the Koran about paradise within the body. It is outside. To get there you must follow the commands of the Almighty. Then when you die, insh`allah, that will be where your journey ends.``

Here, it seemed to me, lay some sort of crux—a clash of civilizations, not between East and West but within Islam itself. Between the strictly regulated ways of the orthodox Tablighis and the customs of the heterodox Sufis lay not just two different understandings of Islam but two entirely different conceptions of how to live, how to die, and how to make the final and most important, and difficult, journey of all—to paradise.

Six years earlier, I had been sitting in a roadside tea shop amid the desert of Rajasthan when I saw a succession of five bicycle rickshaws appear over the horizon, winding their way through the dusty scrub of the Jaipur highway. Every time a juggernaut thundered past, the fragile rickshaws lurched toward the dirt of the hard shoulder. The desert was level and featureless. So flat was the ground that through the shimmering heat haze you could see the convoy struggling for a full half-hour before it finally drew level with the roadside dhaba. Inside the rickshaws were 12 Sufi dervishes, with wild eyes and long, unkempt beards. The fronts of their shalwars were covered with charms, pieces of tinsel and silver talismans. They were all—drivers and dervishes alike—hot and thirsty, and they pulled into the dhaba calling loudly for water and tea.

The men were braving the desert to attend the death anniversary of the Sufi saint Khwaja Garib Nawaz, who lived in the 13th century, a little before Nizamuddin`s time and who belonged to the same mystical tradition. As they shook the desert from their clothes, I asked them about their journey. ``We have cycled all the way from Delhi,`` said one of the drivers.

``Delhi? But that is—what?—400 km away?``

``Garib Nawaz will reward us for our pains,`` he replied. ``It is he who gives us strength.`` The drivers and their passengers sat together on a charpoy, pouring their tea into tin saucers, then noisily sipping the hot, sweet liquid from the plates. ``Anyone who steps through the door of his shrine,`` said another driver, ``will get paradise as his everlasting home.``

I was heading in the same direction, so the following day I went along to the Sufi festival in Ajmer. Virtually overnight the small provincial town was transformed into a heaving, mystic metropolis. Tens of thousands of pilgrims from all over India were milling around the streets, pouring out of buses, unrolling their bedding on the pavement, and cooking their breakfast on portable stoves. From the different encampments on the outskirts—tent cities that resembled the halting place of some medieval army—rivulets of devotees threaded through the bazaars, forming larger streams as they converged on the streets leading to the shrine.

A succession of Mughal mosques, tombs and pavilions were crammed to bursting with ecstatics and madmen, pilgrims and spectators. The entire complex was alive with the intoxicating smell of roses, which the devotees carried in sweet-smelling punnets to pour great fountains of petals onto the saint`s grave. The numbers were amazing, but what was even more remarkable in a nation polarized by religious rivalries was the different traditions from which the pilgrims were drawn. Many were Muslim, but there were also Hindus, as well as the odd Sikh and Christian, all queuing to pay their respects to the saint. Here, for once, you saw religion bringing people together, not dividing them. Sufism was not just something mystical, ethereal and otherworldly, I felt, but a balm on India`s festering religious wounds. I asked one group of Hindu pilgrims if they were made to feel welcome in a Muslim shrine. ``Of course,`` said their leader, a trader from neighboring Gujarat state. ``All Gods are the same.``

When I asked why they had made the effort to come all this way, the man replied with the following story: ``When our child was young, he became very ill. No medicines from any doctor helped. We tried everything, but our son only got weaker. Then some neighbors said we should come here. We were desperate, so we got on a bus. We brought the boy to the shrine and one of its guardians cured him. What could not be done in 12 months he did in a minute.`` So now the trader and his family return each year to give thanks.

From the very beginning of Sufism, music, dance, poetry and meditation have been seen as crucial spiritual strides on the path of love, an invaluable aid toward attaining unity with God—true paradise. Music, in particular, enables devotees to focus their whole being on the divine so intensely that the soul is both destroyed and resurrected. At Sufi shrines, devotees are lifted by the music into a state of spiritual ecstasy.

Yet these heterodox methods of worship have divided Sufis from many of their Muslim brethren. Throughout Islamic history, more puritanical Muslims have claimed that Sufi practices were infections from Christianity and Hinduism, quite alien to the original principles of Islam. As Najaf Haider, professor of medieval history at Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, tells it, such conflicts were inevitable: ``In orthodox Islam the object of creation is the worship of God; God is the master and the devotee is the slave. The Sufis argue that God should be worshipped not because he has commanded us to but because he`s such a lovable being. The cornerstone of Sufi ideology is love, and all traditions are tolerated because anyone is capable of expressing love for God.``

The most formidable of all the anti-Sufi movements was Wahhabism from Arabia, its followers the progenitors of modern Islamic fundamentalists, who on coming to power in the early 19th century destroyed all the Sufi and Shi`a shrines in Arabia and Iraq. Today, the most prominent—and powerful—Wahhabis are the Saudis. Because they dominate media in the Arab world, many contemporary Muslims have been taught a story of Islamic religious tradition from which Sufism is rigorously excluded.

I first came across strongly anti-Sufi sentiments last fall when I visited a shrine just outside Peshawar in Pakistan`s North-West Frontier Province. The Sufi shrine of Rahman Baba has for centuries been a place where Muslim musicians and poets have gathered. It is built around the tomb of a 17th century mystic poet whose Pashtu Sufi verses have led to him being described as the nightingale of Peshawar. A friend who had lived nearby in the 1980s advised me to visit on a Thursday night, when crowds of Afghan refugee musicians sing to their saint by the light of the moon—a sight he described as unforgettable. Since he had left Peshawar, however, much had changed. Two Saudi-funded madrasahs had been built on the road to the shrine, and they had taken it upon themselves to halt what they regarded as the shrine`s un-Islamic practices.

One Thursday I drove out of Peshawar, passed the two madrasahs, and found the tarmac road giving way to a mud track, down which herds of sheep were throwing up huge clouds of dust as they were driven back to their village compounds for the night. Past the village was a well-irrigated enclosure sheltered by a windbreak of date palms. Beyond lay the glistening white dome of the shrine, and facing it a mosque and a new mud-brick library. Tamarind, neem trees and a great, spreading banyan grew beside a bubbling spring. But there were no musicians there that evening, only a small crowd of beggars, a man selling chick peas and dates from a trolley, and a couple of Sufi holy men carrying green flags. Watching suspiciously a short distance away were two young men wearing full beards, white robes and checked red-and-white Saudi ghuttras, or head scarves.

I asked one of the shrine`s guardians, Tila Mohammed, why there were not more pilgrims and what had happened to the musicians for which his shrine was once famous. He motioned for me to come into his room beside the library, out of the earshot of the two men in ghuttras.

``My family has been singing here for generations,`` said Tila Mohammed. ``But now these Arab madrasah students come here and create trouble. They tell us that what we do is wrong. They ask people who are singing to stop. Sometimes arguments break out—even fistfights. This used to be a place where people came for peace of mind. Now they just encounter more problems, so gradually people have stopped coming.``

``We pray that Baba will work a miracle,`` Tila Mohammed continued, ``that good will overcome evil. But our way is pacifist. We love. We never fight. When these Arabs come here, I just don`t know what to do to stop them.``

The tablighis in Nizamuddin are not Wahhabi, but their beliefs are derived from similar theological traditions. They share the Wahhabis` suspicion of the Sufis, and their effect on the Nizamuddin shrine is the same, as they slowly attempt to undermine Islam`s most tolerant and syncretic incarnation just when that face of Islam is most needed in healing the growing breach between Islam and other religions. After leaving Amin at the doors of his Tablighi headquarters, I headed on down into the alleys of Nizamuddin. Taking off my sandals at the entrance of the shrine, I spoke with Hussein, the old man who looks after the shoes of the pilgrims. I asked what he thought of the Tablighis. Hussein`s response was passionate: ``These people are so extreme and intolerant. Look around you. Everyone in Delhi knows about the power of Nizamuddin. Everyone knows that if your heart is pure and you ask him something, that he cannot refuse you. I have felt his power in my own life. I lost my hut in a slum clearance 10 years ago. I was hungry and I had nothing. But I prayed to the saint, and through him I found a place to stay and a way of supporting my family. I tell you: if anybody abuses Nizamuddin Auliya, I will be the first to defend him—with my knife if need be.``

It was a Thursday evening when, during the singing of the qawwalis, the mesmerizing love songs of the Indian Sufis, the spiritual life of the shrine was to reach its climax. Huge crowds of pilgrims were already sitting cross-legged in the forecourt in front of the tomb, and the first qawwali singers were beginning to strike up their music. Around them was a press of excited onlookers. Most pilgrims had come with their families—groups of little boys with eyes wonderfully darkened with kohl, little girls who perhaps had been ill and had been brought for healing. At the shrine itself there were young women trying to tie small threads through the lattices of its screens, each one of them with some prayer or petition, usually a plea for marriage or children.

To one side was a huge cauldron of biryani that had just been carried in to feed the poor. On another was a gathering of women who had come to learn to read Arabic in the simple school that operated from the back of the shrine. There were Muslim grandmothers in black chadors from Bengal, Punjabi Sikhs in their blue turbans, Hindu women from South India with the large red bindis on their foreheads, all coming to pray to the saint, all coming to use Nizamuddin as their intermediary to God.

The crowds thickened. The tempo of the music quickened, and some of the pilgrims began to sink into a trance. Old men were swaying now, arms extended, hands cupped in supplication, lost to the world; women were tossing their hair from side to side; and the first of a succession of dervishes rose to their feet to dance. The atmosphere, already heavy with the rich scent of rose petals, grew heavier still, filled with the softly mouthed and murmured prayers, and with the passionate incantations and expectations of 10,000 pilgrims.

I left them there, with their prayers and petitions, still seeking paradise in that most elusive of all destinations, the human heart.

i must not carry on self-respecting discussions then. . .

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sidhibaat: you are right. however, by changing nicks you lose credibility as a sincere interactor, and thus draw attention towards your ever-changing identity and away from anything interesting you may have to say. This also confuses the discussion. This is fair neither to yourself nor to other posters.

I also dont see how changing nicks has anything to do with discussions not deteriorating into insults (as you say). In fact, most people who carry on a self-respecting discussion have only one identity (the author of this article, e.g., or dost mittar or indeed virtually all chowkies).

jang #735
``other option is providing diplomatic and moral support``

Good advice. Reunification sahib IS quite the diplomat.:)

Some views of teens:
http://www.hindugateway.com/cgi-bin/webx?14@247.L2p9aupVdRx-hin.0@.ee6b84b/1

Thought is binding, but for it not to have polluting effect on our consciousness, make sure it`s helpful, truth-seeking and kind. This needs discipline ... discipline follows a world view or model. Models use words to channel our thoughts.. So definitions of words are needed. Here is one attempt to define. Search words such as consciousness, dharma, karma, cosmic consciousness, collective consciousness, enlightenment etc. It seems htm/php links are broken so chose pdfs

Pl take the milk and leave the water ... water could be kalki, astrology and vastu (if you perceive as mumbo-jumbo ... i cannot deal with it with my present makeup).

Albert Einstein:
A human being is a part of the whole, called by us the `Universe`, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separate from the rest - a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security.

http://www.ivu.org/history/northam20a/einstein.html

jang #728 Unable to refute anything I write, you resort (explicitly!) to writing up your own garbage and attributing this to the ``real`` tahmed!!

This is clear proof that your ``reality`` is nothing more than a bunch of delusions based on prejudice. Unless you tell me you know me in ``real`` life and have heard me talk in this vulgar manner that you attribute to me. Have you ever met me in real life??

sidhibaat aka.... : I think what rsaxena says is true. You ARE talking to yourself here (sidhibaat vs. dalit)!! That is one way to win an argument. :-)

(Another way is what jang just did, i.e. make up something stupid and claim that this is what the other person really meant to say, as I mention to him in my post).

Coming to your question: I am not sure what you mean. But really, before anything else do yourself a favor and stick to one nick. Or use your own name even. Why should you say something on chowk that you would not say in real life if you are a self-respecting man?

SeedyBaat

actually their is a great forum on which the issue of caste is rased.. the un conf on racism. indu govt always protests that casteism should not be termed as racism etc. overall no one pays much attention as all the media attention is sucked-up due to the arab and oic denouncement of israel as racist entity with us supporting israel. so perhaps considering the import of this issue, you should raise this as the issue for paki foreign policy and beocome a paki diplomat (surely you have the connections rigtht ;-) ;-) ?) as a gazi of dalits.

other option is providing diplomatic and moral support, since many of your compatriots are dalits or former dalits.

re: tahmed

...at least the old 12-head never responded to his own posts with different nicks...this idiot is actually talking to himself in #725...hahahah...always something new on chowk....

omar qureshi #720
Thank you. That was very enlightening.

tahmed

``Please dont do it - even if you have valid points, no one will take what you say seriously if you act in this immature manner. (This is a piece of friendly advice). ``

allow me to re-write as ``real`` tahmed would write.

you are writing these to display your poor genetic origins and chamar or choora upbringing. by writing this you demonstrate that you have ignorant and evil mama and papa.

#715 by saint on July 18, 2004 9:31pm PT

These are all Jehadi clones of Salim Chauhan alias Mr. Anderson (Remember the determined Agent in ``The Matrix``). All the clones are a new breed of e-terrorists called ``cyber-fidayeen`` with the only aim of spamming Chowk and other such Boards so that they can either make more `clones` of themselves or if they do not succed in doing so - they would self destruct by spamming and choking the band width of these Boards.

harish: you write ``And now will we hear the usual noises about the suicide bombers not being true Muslims because the Quran forbids suicide? As they say, one swallow does not make a summer. For every Salahuddin Ayubi, there have been countless others, whose reputations for chivalry are not exactly something to crow about. Prominent among them Genghiz Khan, Muhammad Ghazni, Ghori, Aurangzeb, Nadir Shah, Taimur Lane, etc. What do you have to say about that? ``

You are dead wrong: None of these individuals was a suicide bomber or a suicide anything. Furthermore, far from being a muslim, Genghiz Khan was the worst enemy of the muslims. Timur the lame was a muslim in name, but his worst enemy too was none other than the ottoman emperor (a ``fellow`` muslim) bayazid whom he defeated in battle and took prisoner.

Get your facts right before jumping to conclusions.

As for salahuddin ayubi being an only example of chivalry in warfare, you are dead wrong too. There are countless examples from muslim history - indeed, one of salahuddin`s actions that earned him the respect of his west european enemies was a repeat of what the caliph usman had done a few centuries earlier (that is the respect shown to the defeated jews and christians in jerusalem after they captured this same city, and to their respective places of worship). There is indeed a lot of evil done in the name of islam in history - but it is also generally recognized that for centuries the muslims were the torchbearers of human progress, and among the most tolerant of societies (e.g. tens of thousands of jews opted to go to muslim turkey after the fall of spain, rather than to any west european country). You need to educate yourself a bit, I think before you start making such ignorant assertions.

sidhibaat aka Pakishaer aka barachota: Pat Robertson has said a lot of ignorant things about islam as well. Do you believe those too, or only the stuff he says about hinduism?
As for taking on different nicks, there used to be a man with 12 nicks on chowk and he made a total fool of himself before he (along with all his nicks) was tossed off chowk. Please dont do it - even if you have valid points, no one will take what you say seriously if you act in this immature manner. (This is a piece of friendly advice).

jang #692 fair enough sir. The alternative to tossing insults at other people`s religions is not chappal kebab and dring, btw. One can also view other cultures with appreciation rather than in trying to find fault, and try to learn something about it - as Nazar Hayat Khan has done in this article on hinduism.

jang #692 (ignore my other response - it had a couple of typos)

fair enough sir. The alternative to tossing insults at other people`s religions is not eating chappal kebab and drink, btw. One can also view other cultures with appreciation rather than in trying to find fault, and try to learn something about it - as Nazar Hayat Khan has done in this article on hinduism.

alephnull #689 shall look forward to your munh todh jawab to my post. :-)

#712 by DagnyTaggart on July 18, 2004 9:31pm PT
A muslim quoting Pat Robertson? Ha Ha Ha
Clutching at the straws, are we?
What does tahmed and Omar Qureshi has to say about this? Some things just make me go hmmmmm

abey dabney coleman boy shusssshhh

---

harry potter: ``Does it have something to do with the fact that some Pakis have a thing for young boys?`` -- nahin yaar -- i thought that was something the sadhus and various maharishis were into yaar --


#708 by CoolAL on July 18, 2004 6:04pm PT
#700, #701

TAhmed, one more for your proud collection.

[YAWN]

We see the birth of another hydra...wake me up when this one runs its course....

PS. Omar must be proud of his protege... ;-)


actually im quite numbed by the dreariness of your posts coolal -- not to mention deadened and close to slumber -- dont worry coolal we wont wake u up -- so jao

-- boy interacting on this is getting to be such a bore -- i think the time has come for a break from all this responding back and forth --

#672 by tahmed32

[the Quran explicitly prohibits suicide in any case, and the military history of islam is in fact often associated with the opposite kind of behavior - that of chivalry in battle, as in case of salahuddin ayubi]

And now will we hear the usual noises about the suicide bombers not being true Muslims because the Quran forbids suicide? As they say, one swallow does not make a summer. For every Salahuddin Ayubi, there have been countless others, whose reputations for chivalry are not exactly something to crow about. Prominent among them Genghiz Khan, Muhammad Ghazni, Ghori, Aurangzeb, Nadir Shah, Taimur Lane, etc. What do you have to say about that?

#680 by Pakshaer

And I fail to understand the fetish amongst Pakistanis for the lingam. To be honest, most of us do not know what the lingam represents, and even those of us who know it never conjure up erotic images while standing and praying in front of it. It is only you guys who are getting all worked up. Does it have something to do with the fact that some Pakis have a thing for young boys?

The Aryan Brahmins imposed the most inhuman systems of repression upon the non-Brahmins which involved the most perverse and inhuman acts of torture imaginable. The heinous forms of murder included the pouring of boiling oil into the ears of Sudras -
Manu Smrti VIII.272
`` If a Sudra arrogantly teaches Brahmins their duty, the king shall cause hot oil to be poured into his mouth and into his ears.``
Pouring of Molten Metal into Sudra Ears
Not only was boiling oil poured down the ears of independant Sudras, in certain other cases molten metal was used instead. Thus, the Brahman law-giver Gautama prescribes the following savage punishment for Sudras who listened to recitations of the Aryan Vedas -
Gautama Dharma Sutra 12.4
`` Now if a Sudra listens intentionally to (a recitation of) the Veda, his ears shall be filled with (molten) tin or lac. ``
Cutting off of Sudra Tongues
Another cruel and inhuman method which the `holy` Hindu texts prescribe for torturing Sudras is the cutting off of their tongues for speaking out against the Aryan and, later, the Brahmanic tyranny. -
Manu Smrti VIII.270
`` A once-born man (a Sudra), who insults a twice-born man with gross invective, shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin. ``
Gautama Dharma Sutra 12.5
`` If a Sudra recites (Vedic texts), his tongue shall be cut out. ``
Negationist Hindutva and Pseudo-Secular historians often claims that these laws were not enforced in actual practice. This theory is refuted by the testimony of several travellers, who explicitly mention that this Brahmanic punishment was actually practiced. Indeed, many travellers were eye-witness to such cases. Witness the following passage by Al-Beruni -
Al-Beruni
Confirms Amputation of Sudra Tongues
`` The Vaisya and the Sudra are not allowed to hear it [ the Veda ], much less to pronounce and recite it. If such a thing can be proved against one of them, the Brahmans drag him before the magistrate, and he is punished by having his tongue cut off. ``
`Al-Beruni`s India,` transl. E.C.Sachau, Vol.I, Ch.XII, p.125 ]
Thrusting of Iron Nails into the Mouth
Another cruel method of torture which the Aryan regimes enforced upon the Sudras was the thrusting of a red-hot iron nail into the mouth of Sudras who had committed minor transgressions -
Manu VIII.271
`` If he mentions the names and castes (Jati) of the (twice-born) with contumely, an iron nail, 10 fingers long, shall be thrust red-hot into his mouth .``
Chopping off of Limbs
For the most trivial of infringements, the Sudra could have his hands, feet or legs chopped off by his Aryan tormentors. The savage Brahmins never hesitated to immediately inflict the heinous tortures perscribed in the Vedic texts and mercilessly chopped off the hands, feet, legs and fingers of their Sudra slaves.
Manu VIII.279-280
`` With whatever limb a man of a low caste does hurt to (a man of the three highest castes) even that limb shall be cut off ; that is the teaching of Manu. He who raises his hand or a stick, shall have his hand cut off ; he who in his anger kicks with his foot, shall have his foot cut off .``
Manu VIII.282
`` If out of arrogance he [ a Sudra ] spits (on a superior), the king shall cause both his lips to be cut off; if he urines (on him), the penis; if he breaks wind (against him), the anus.``
`` If ha lays fold of the hair(of a superior), let the king unhesitatingly cut off his hands , likewise (if he takes him) by the feet, the breard, the neck or the scrotum.``
Such punishments were also meted out during the totalitarian regime of Pandit Kautilya `` ``If a woman labourer after receiving her wages did not turn up for work, her thumb was cut off.`` [ Arthasastr.II.23 cited in Jain, p.234 ]
The traveller John Fryer, who visited India in the 1670s and hence an eye-witness to Brahminist oppression, described the dehumanising effects of Brahmin rule in Maharashtra : `` The cruel exactions of Mahratta rule were patent on all sides. The great fish preyed upon the little ones, until the poorer classes wer brought into eternal bondage. The Brahman officials tortured the revenue farmer and the farmers tortured the cultivators.`` [ Wheeler and Macmillan, p.62 ]. This was during the tyrannical rule of the Peshwa Brahmins and confirms the cumulative effects of their oppression of Marathas and Dalits.
Gashing and Branding
Another inhuman method of torturing Sudras was the method of gashing and branding. `` If a low-caste man who tries to place himself on the same seat with a man of a high caste, shall be branded on his hip and is banished, or (the king) shall cause his buttock to be gashed.`` [ Manu VIII.281 ]
Sawing alive
If a Sudra Negroid remembered verses from the `holy` Vedas, he would be sawed alive -
Gautama Dharma Sutra 12.6
`` If he [ a Sudra ] remembers them [ Vedic Verses ], his body shall be split in twain. ``
The reason for these inhuman acts was solely religious bigotry on the part of first the Aryan invaders who followed the hate-filled verses of the Vedas, and subsequently by the unparalleled fanaticism of the Brahmins who ruthlessly enforced the savage Manu-Smrti and Kautilya Arthasastra upon the Sudras.
The life of a Sudroid Negro is, as per the `holy` Hindu law-books, lower than that of an animal. `` The Vaisya and the Sudra are not allowed to hear it [ the Veda ], much less to pronounce and recite it. If such a thing can be proved against one of them, the Brahmans drag him before the magistrate, and he is punished by having his tongue cut off .`` [ al-Beruni.i.125 Ch.XII ]
The Arab traveller further noted the manner in which the Brahmins persecuted the Sudras - `` Every act that is considered the privelege of the Brahman, such as saying prayers, the reciting of the Veda, and offering of sacfirices to the fire, is forbidden to him, to such a degree that when, eg. a Sudra or a Vaisya is proved to have recited the Veda, he is accused by the Brahmans before the ruler, and the latter will order his tongue to be cut off . However, the meditation on God [ is not prohibited ].`` [ al-Beruni.ii.127 Ch.LXIV ]
In general, the life of an indigenous Sudra is considered lower than that of an animal -
Manu Smrti XI.132
`` Having killed a cat, an ichneumon, a blue jay, a frog, a dog, an iguana, an owl, or a crow, he shall perform the penance for the murder of a Sudra.``
After such mind-boggling atrocities, it is indeed surprising that the Sudras survived. This was due to their sheer will of survival. No surprise then, that Mani Varadarajan has called for the observance of a `Dalit Holocaust Day` -
``Dalit Holocaust Day - August 18``
Mani Varadarajan , alt.hindu, Thu, 17 Aug 1995
Dear Friends,
Please observe a moment of silence in the memory of all those human beings who were slaughtered by the merciless sword of uppercaste Hindu
References
• `Labour in Ancient India,` by P.C.Jain, Sterling Publishers Ltd. New Delhi 1st ed. 1971.
• `European Travellers in India,` by James Talboys Wheeler and Michael Macmillan, reprint Susil Gupta India Ltd. Calcutta, 1956.
• `Alberuni`s India` transl. Dr. E.C.Sachau, 2 vols., Routledge and Kegan Paul Ltd., London 1888.

sidhibaat #704

The article you cut and paste had factual and other inaccuracies and biases. In response to a critique in 2002, Microsoft Encarta`s section on Hinduism has been revised recently.

The original critique of the Encarta content is here (an example of a website article can lead to actual action and results)

http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=245733

The updated version of the article is here

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761555715/Hinduism.html

So you did a very good thing by referring to your older version of Encarta!

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to provide some corrective measures.

Wherever goes barachota
Invariably, udhar burrahota

With his antics, he got kicked out of Chowk
Cause the good old Hindus he loved to mock

So he reincarnated himself, thinking he was the best
And came back like an univited guest

Pakshaer is in reality Napak-kayar
He lives to add fuel to the fiiire

Sidhibaat is actually Tedhi-zaat
And in his zeal he`s upset the Pak apple-cart

The paki-bashers have not had such fun in ages
Watching barachota make a fool of himself with such easiness

But the truth is out there for all to see
BARACHOTA IS JUST AN ATTENTION SEEKING FREAK!

A muslim quoting Pat Robertson? Ha Ha Ha
Clutching at the straws, are we?
What does tahmed and Omar Qureshi has to say about this? Some things just make me go hmmmmm

good to see how concerned barachota is about me, but you need not be. couldn`t stay away, could you?

Yeh hero ab nb ko kyon gaalian dey raha hai?

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#700, #701

TAhmed, one more for your proud collection.

[YAWN]

We see the birth of another hydra...wake me up when this one runs its course....

PS. Omar must be proud of his protege... ;-)

Religion is a semetic concept. Does not mean good or bad.
Most part it is for creating legion (army unit) to subjugate other people, occupy their land (Africa, India, South-Central Americas). We chose our parents, family, society and even the world we see according to our disposition (Chitta Vrutti and Deep rooted desires in our jivatma, the soul). If we just change outward garb (name of religion, nationality, semetic names) it does not make much of a difference ... infact could make it worse.

A good compilation on Hinduism by western mind is here
http://www.hindugateway.com/sites/best/

A good personal experience of a common woman is http://www.hindugateway.com/inspiration/journals/

Good Muslim is Good Hindu and vice versa. Name does not matter both are good human being. Indian and Pakiatani patriots if they pay their taxes with good conscience and make sur that it is well spent then they are good world citizens.

sadna

hoor policy and jihad connection is abundantly written about in a veriety of media. only chowk pakistanis seem to think that recognition of such a connection is falling to RSS propaganda.

the point is that i have nothing new and original to contribute, so i accept tahmeds accusation of parroting.

echoboom boom boom...

....chacha chusni tum ho kidhar?...aath aath aansoo se roti hain hasinaan e chowk tumhari yaad mein... khudaara unplugged pe aakay aik baar apni daRhi-daar mohni soorat dikha jaao...and wah wah...mushaira aap ka hua...;)

Khamkhwa: Hope you`ll enjoy this.

BUSH to MUSH: (The ``U-turn / WE-RETURN`` episode)

Youn elaj e dil e betaab kiya hai main nay
uss ke peshab pe peshab kiya hai main nay.
Qatraa tapkaa naa jahaaN thhaa barsON
us ko Bumbari sey sairaab kiya hai maiN nay.

Tuum miray paas jo hotay ho musharraf, goya
Yaa tuum ``with us`` ho ya ``with them``! O yeah.

---

Mush to Mullahs.

Vardee miri utrnay pay kyooN ho tuulay huay
dainay ko maray paas tO ubb kuchh naheeN raha
Usmat jo thhoRRee baaqi thhee, voh taar taar hai
Bush ney chaRRhee krnayn sey pehlay yahee kaha

I suppose in their conception I am now Pro-India, Pro-Hindu miscreant...

:)

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jang #692
There is plenty of connection between armed killings and promises of hoors, people simply by kicking up a big fuss can not hide that.

http://www.atimes.com/ind-pak/CJ10Df01.html

``..``...ATol: What are the rewards of waging jihad?

Jamal: Prophet Muhamad also offered a lot of incentives for those who would wage jihad in their lives. The mujahideen were assured of entering Paradise before the first drop of their blood fell to earth. The Holy Scriptures of Islam also say that houris [beautiful virgins of the Koranic Paradise] come down to Earth to take the spirit of the mujahid who is about to die before the first drop of his blood falls to earth. The martyrs are promised 72 houris in Paradise. These houris are more beautiful than all the beauties of the world combined. I have studied more than 600 wills of Pakistani mujahideen who were fighting in Kashmir. There is hardly any will that escapes this concept. All the mujahideen have mentioned the houris as an important incentive for waging jihad. The Paradise with houris is the prime objective of these mujahideen...``


``...For example, Prophet Muhamad said that marriage is important for Muslims. It is ``half of your belief``, according to Him. But when I read the wills of mujahideen, I find they refuse to get married because they want to get married in Paradise... ``


http://www.payk.net/mailingLists/iran-news/html/2003/msg02041.html
``..In his Friday sermon at the Al-Raza mosque in the north Pakistan town of Rawalpindi, prayer leader Maulana Yousaf exhorts the assembly to ``Contact me if you want to donate your sons for Kashmir jihad.`` He boasts, ``My speeches have motivated hundreds of people to donate their sons. I have raised an army of 300 holy warriors within four months.``


Such impassioned speeches have the desired effect. Take the case of laborer Ahsan Mehmood, a father of eight, who gave two of his sons to jihad last month. ``It is better for them to die for a cause and embrace martyrdom before I kill them due to hunger,`` is how he justifies his decision.


Prayer leaders and schoolteachers are jihad`s local PR agents. Says Karim Khan, a vegetable seller from Gujranwala in the northern Punjab province, ``My 18-year-old son joined the LeT because he was influenced by his teacher`s lectures. He would tell the boys that the real world (news - Y! TV) was in paradise, which a Muslim could achieve only through martyrdom, to be secured by fighting in Kashmir...``


http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/08/17/martyr.culture/

In the late 1990s, Pakistani journalist Nasra Hassan interviewed nearly 250 prospective bombers, their families, as well as their trainers, from within militant Palestinian camps.

In remarkable accounts, members of the Palestinian fundamentalist group Hamas described how potential bombers came to believe that paradise was on the ``other side of the detonator.``

Candidates for martyrdom were told the first drop of blood shed by a martyr washes away their sins. They could select 70 of their nearest and dearest to enter Heaven; and they would have at their disposal 72 houris, the beautiful virgins of paradise, Hassan recounted in the New Yorker.

Indeed many of the statements written by suicide bombers before they died spoke of a painless death that offered the shortest path to such a Heaven.

9/11 suicide attacker Mohammad Atta`s writings:
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Mohammad-Atta
````you should feel complete tranquillity, because the time between you and your marriage in heaven is very short``

http://www.secularislam.org/skeptics/anwar.htm

http://www.globalpolicy.org/wtc/fundamentalism/2002/0127jihad.htm
``Little in the manner of Ijaz Khan Hussein betrays the miseries he saw as a volunteer in the war in Afghanistan. Mr. Khan, a college-trained pharmacist, joined the jihad, or holy war, like thousands of other Pakistanis who crossed over into Afghanistan.

He worked as a medical orderly near Kabul, shuttling to the front lines, picking up bodies and parts of bodies. Of 43 men who traveled with him to Afghanistan by truck in October, he says, 41 were killed.

Now with the Taliban and Al Qaeda routed, have Mr. Khan and other militants finished with holy war?

Mr. Khan, at least, said he had not.

``We went to the jihad filled with joy, and I would go again tomorrow,`` he said. ``If Allah had chosen me to die, I would have been in paradise, eating honey and watermelons and grapes, and resting with beautiful virgins, just as it is promised in the Koran. Instead, my fate was to remain amid the unhappiness here on earth.`` ...``


http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/Ibnwarraq/what_virgins.htm
Virgins? What virgins?

Apparently it is earthly marriages which are creating problems in this jihadi organisation:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_18-7-2004_pg7_20
Jamaatud Dawa splits

``..The leaders of the breakaway faction have accused Hafiz Saeed of nepotism, diverting the party from its original objective and the unfair distribution of funds. The Khairun Naas was also unhappy at Saeed’s second marriage to a fallen comrade’s widow...``

``..When Prof Iqbal and other JD council members objected that the second marriage did not suit the party head, Hafiz Saeed objected to Prof Iqbal’s second marriage to a young Baltistani girl.

“The dispute was personal, but spilled over into party affairs,” sources said, adding that Hafiz Saeed’s second marriage seemed to usher in a trend, with several other party members marrying a second time, including Yahya Mujahid...``

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ok tahmed
i will not post generic comments on paki or jihadic hoor policy due to the following 2 reasons.

1. i indeed was parroting the connection which though true, not something i noticed on my own as a result its parroting hence redundant.

2. you dont seem to take it the way i think you should ( you take it as a personal attack on your religion, althogh it confusing..you seem to claim that your religion is more sublime and had nothing to do with hoor policy.)

i have already stated that slander on the holy prophet out of context is just that and therefore not halal.

so, bottom line, i kind of get what HP and bara says. see what we can achieve when there is no violence threat!

so long live chappal kabab (all this bohomie is due to some good food at a small eaterie called medina market off brighton ave-harvard st corner in boston. i wish they server beer though..maybe not. the two pubs on the block have much nicer atmosphpere)

woh haddi ban kar ayea tha chowk pe,
yeh dekho kaisey kabab kiya hai main ney.

har baat pe kehta tha, jawaab do na abh,
abh dekho kaisey la-jawab kiya hai main ney.

aik gaali di thi ussne ammi ko mere aik din,
usski ammi ko aaj benaqab kiya hai main ney.

abh tou meri jannat pakki samjho khamkhwa,
allah ke khaatey mein yeh sawaab kiya hai main ney.

;)

soysauce #665, tahmed32 #669, #672

Apologies for not having replied yet. Soysauce, will reply some time tomorrow evening. Tahmed, will give multi-part befitting reply (muh-tod jawab) at around the same time.

abay O bhallu...
raag mishra ki todi main how would you sing my verse noted below...which is...

Youn elaj e dil e betaab kiya hai main nay
uss ke peshab pe peshab kiya hai main nay
;))

#684 by kkkandk on July 17, 2004 5:10pm PT -- 00182027

More threats by the mullahs to the chowk staff and its posters?? This time disguised as a `Legal` threat. Isn`t this another aspect of terrorism and intolerence by Pakistani muslims? Now we are going to see cyber-jehadis trying to blow themselves up by spamming chowk!
Listen you donkey mullahs- you need a good kick on your ar$e to make you see the reality. Megalomaniac, narcisstic and racist louts deserve to be kicked out from this board and chowk staff has done the right thing!!!

#684 by kkkandk on July 17, 2004 5:10pm PT -- 00182027

More threats by the mullahs to the chowk staff and its posters?? This time disguised as a `Legal` threat. Isn`t this another aspect of terrorism and intolerence by Pakistani muslims? Now we are going to see cyber-jehadis trying to blow themselves up by spamming chowk!
Listen you donkey mullahs- you need a good kick on your ar$e to make you see the reality. Megalomaniac, narcisstic and racist louts deserve to be kicked out from this board and chowk staff has done the right thing!!!

wow, the jews are doing well, pbuh,indeed!
tahmed, dr phil isn`t the be-all and end-all. the doctor on the sopranos is better.

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CoolAL: The facts of what goes on on chowk are there to see. You are welcome to draw your own conclusions, and I am not going to spend time defending mine.

Pakshaer alias barachota: Could you please cool it? You are ruining my case (that Pakistani posters in general dont fall to the level of many of the Indian posters). :-(

Ref Mullah32 #678

[You badly need to have a chat with Dr. Phil to get rid of your complexes.]

I don`t know if that is an improvement over your earlier advice to seek professional help from the janitorial shrink Shankar.

...since sanatan dharma has become dharma and greg and shair O shayeri is on the menu, here is one of my own...enjoy...;)

yun ilaj e dil e betaab kiya hai hum nay
uss ke peshab pe peshab kiya hai hum nay

...adab arz;)

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#678

TAhmed,

In your post #657, you said

....This parroting of sexually laced rubbish is just that. All I can say is I am glad you dont find pakistanis (other than ali1 a long time ago, and even he has gotten bored and stopped) dong this, although for every one target for sexually laced cheap shots in islam there are ten in hinduism if anyone wanted to lower himself to this level.


You have said the following -- several times in fact -- in the past...

• You are not interested in exchanging insults.


• You have no pre-concieved notions and will strive to keep an open mind.


• If anyone points out a factual error in your statements. You will accept it immediately.

With the above in mind, could you please tell us if you acknowledge the following?

• The last two people who were banned from Chowk were Pakistanis and they were banned for writing obscenities


• HP was censured and one of his posts removed for writing obscenities. Several of his posts where he called Sadna several obscenities still remain for all to see..

In the light of the above, kindly let us know if you think that your statement has any legs to stand on...

Regards

harimau: I see you are learning something from chowk. Only trouble is, all you have learnt is to say ``oye`` from urstruly. This mimicry of those who despise you indicates the problem with you hindutvas - you try to become like them even as you claim to be their enemy. You badly need to have a chat with Dr. Phil to get rid of your complexes.

Ref jang #675

Don`t argue with folks like Inji-kari-kuzhambu though he thinks he sounds more sophisticated if he uses the handle `soysauce`. He is probably trying to see if he can collect a bunch of his frllow Dravidian goons to hold a black flag procession on Aug 15.

This is the same idiot who said he had no objection to the triple-talaq system of divorce... he is looking for support from ANY person, even if it is a Koran-quoting mullah like tahmed32.

Ref Mullah32 #674

[harimau: i see the hindutva leech has managed to wiggle its way to this board. ha! ha!]

Oye mullah, I have been posting on this board for about a week now just in case you do not have the ability to look for posts under my name.

alephnull #662 Just the fact that Dawkins (or any man) has said something doesnt make it reasonable - sometimes very smart people say or do very stupid things. You need to look at the facts and logic to something to decide whether it makes sense. No human being is pure reason, and we all (even the smartest among us) have our views colored by emotion. So, one can only pass judgement on something specific that is said, and not just give an individual a carte blanche simply because of his standing in society.

He may be well versed in biology, but that does not make Dawkins the master of all knowledge - and it certainly does not make him more knowledgable on Islam than the average man on the street. suicide bombing is NOT an islamic tradition nor is it exclusive to muslims - the japanese kamikazes, the sri lankan suicide bombers are two obviousl examples, and one can find countless others from western history (even the victorians, who glorified the ``noble six hundred`` who ``rode into the valley of death``). and the Quran explicitly prohibits suicide in any case, and the military history of islam is in fact often associated with the opposite kind of behavior - that of chivalry in battle, as in case of salahuddin ayubi (respected through the centuries even by his bitterest enemies, with brits even naming their most popular post WWII armored vehicle after him - saladin). suicide bombings are driven by a kind of mindlessness that is the opposite of the basic message of the Quran. By labelling muslims as fanatics driven by dreams of houris, neither Dawkins nor any other individual is doing civilized society any favor.

If you seek western authors` views on islam, i suggest you refer to those who are indeed well versed in islamic history, theology, culture - read armstrong, esposito, huston smith, bernard lewis - and you will find them reinforcing the point I make about islam and muslim societies. The fact that you have to seek the views of a man who knows nothing about islam (as discussed above) to support your case should, I think, give you something to think about.

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harimau: i see the hindutva leech has managed to wiggle its way to this board. ha! ha!

look soya

caste etc is no problem at all. bring it on (except the dalitistan.org because its stale). inidia is littered with critics of the caste system from the times of Tukaram. the problem is that here is a board with 600+ posts on the dominant religion of india, and pakis have one lousy ali post to show? (besides the author) rest have mumbled some stuff like nice article. no posts on state of the religion, how it does at ground level in pakistan, nothing! its mind boggling. how does an indu learn about pakistan in this case wrt to sanatan dharma? and then the big n small poster whine about how come the indoos are evil folks who dont want to play nice.

so do this, cut and paste what fodors what it says about caste in india and start an info trail. i will join in if something clicks.

Ref ali_1 #653

[#639 by HP

PS. You keep referring to ``RSS types/drones`` in your posts.... I think you are mistaken. These are not card carrying RSS members, just average middle class Indian Hindus.]

How about those of you who drop money into jihadi collection boxes? Would that be the average middle-class Muslims of Pakistan or are the jihadis funding themselves?

Ref Mullah32 #657

[....This parroting of sexually laced rubbish is just that. All I can say is I am glad you dont find pakistanis (other than ali1 a long time ago, and even he has gotten bored and stopped) dong this, although for every one target for sexually laced cheap shots in islam there are ten in hinduism if anyone wanted to lower himself to this level.]

Oye Mullah, wasn`t it HP who was calling Sadna a ``ho`` and ``hor`` just on this board? So why do you say it was only ``ali_1 a long time ago and even he has gotten bored and stopped``?

Now start quoting the relevant verses from Koran about why this is permissible under the rules of Islam.

alephnull #660 ``

``First, once you have abandoned religious faith, you have no religion; at best you can be said to have been brought up in a particular faith tradition which you then rejected; thus Nietzsche came from the German Lutheran tradition in which his father was a divine. ``

Fine. But nevertheless, this was the faith and culture he was born in. It was not like he was ridiculing muslims or hindus or anyone else. The correct comparison would be with the christian extremists (and indeed, the standard items of ridicule used on chowk - namely the prophet`s wives and the concept of houris - is taken from the west, where these were stock in trade for the christian extremists through the centuries).

``Secondly, Nietzsche expended a lot of ink discussing and criticizing the ‘priestly mentality’ and hieratic tradition of Judaism which he claims the Christ tried to undo. One could of course argue that Judaism was the lineal ancestor of his own native faith tradition, and it was Judaism’s role as progenitor of Christianity that excited Nietzsche’s interest. [But by the same token one could describe Islam as merely a very successful Christian heresy and therefore a suitable target for criticism by Christians or ex-Christians.]``

Surely the standard an educated person in this day and age is expected to meet is higher than that of the christian extremists during europe`s dark ages. When tens of thousands of anabaptists for example were burnt at the stake to take just one of countless examples of their superstitious and hate-filled view of the world. And even Nietzsche, despite having provided some interesting views, is hardly a philospher any civilized society would follow - the Nazis were his ignoble offspring.

``Nietzsche in any case went on to develop a general critique of religion. Claiming that he ridiculed only his own religion is patently false. Voltaire’s case is interesting; he spent much energy excoriating Christianity (‘Ecrasez l’infame!’) and on occasion compared Islam very favourably to it; in other instances he was expressly hostile to Islam; and he would very likely be hostile to the common essence of the Abrahamic traditions. ``

As I recall from reading Candide a long time ago, Voltaire was more of a social critic. And in particular seemed to have a gripe against well off (monks being one of the social ``estates`` he ridiculed) people who saw the world thru rose-colored glasses (``let them eat cake``). His criticism of christianity (as i recall) was largely on account of the priestly class (the monks), from which hinduism would hardly be immune (where the priestly class were the top caste, not even the third estate as in voltaire`s france). There is no doubt valid criticism against Abrahamic traditions too - the religious zeal associated with monotheism is contrasted (correctly, in my view) with the less passionate mixing of religion and politics of hinduism or the oriental religions.


``Third, there is no shortage of dead Europeans of some fame and considerable intelligence who attacked a multitude of other belief traditions, both the beliefs of pagan Hindus and Buddhists and the religion of the infidel Turks, to say nothing of the blaspheming Jews. ``

Agreed. Some live ones too.

``In any case, what appears to underlie the distinction you draw is the notion that criticism of one’s native religious tradition is acceptable, whereas that of ‘alien’ religious traditions is absolutely non-kosher.``

This is not really the distinction between kosher vs nonkosher that I see. The distinction is fundamentally on the REASONABLENESS of the criticism. Surely this mindless repetition of ``hoors`` by jang which started this discussion does not fall in the category of being reasonable. (``hoors`` have been used through the centuries by sex-obsessed christian priests to ridicule the ``mohammedan heresy`` as they saw islam, but in fact are mentioned perhaps once in the Quran, and certainly nowhere close to being the central theme of the Quran which has to do with praise for God and his creation and of the responsibility of the individual to behave in a civilized manner.).

Thanks for an interesting post and for giving me the chance to make my views clear.

#655 by CoolAL on July 16, 2004 12:00pm PT -- 00181896
#644

[quote]
..yes coolal -- we mean ALL pakistanis regardless of their mental state
[/quote]

:-)

Soooooo, are we to take it that IF the chowk staff don`t give you an answer or give you an answer that you don`t like, you too will go elsewhere Like your esteemed co-poster?




err no coolaljee -- my departure from chowk or otherwise will entirely be my own decision :)


PS. You keep referring to ``RSS types/drones`` in your posts.... I think you are mistaken. These are not card carrying RSS members, just average middle class Indian Hindus.

yes we all know that ali-1 -- as for leaving this -- i think my patience with the paki bashers is running out too -- i think there are better things in life than talking to losers whose only aim seems to be to live off a website....


shrimate jee will never learn it seems: ``That happened on this thread too - Indians were discussing Hinduism, not Paki-bashing and along come a hero and his sidekick who started whining about Paki-bashing and Modi. You can go to articles by dost-mittar and Farzana and see the gratuitous posts on `Paki-bashing` and `hate-mongering` make their appearance.`` -- well on many other boards shrimati jee, along come the paki bashers and talk about everything but the content of the article itself -- it seems u and those like u are so used to this script that u readily recognize it dont u --



shrimai jee again: ``#652 by sadna on July 16, 2004 12:00pm PT -- 00181899

The best way to foster better `Indo-Pak understanding` is to stop fomenting terrorism in India.

Plausible deniability about fomenting terrorism works only in the short term. Deniability does not work when fomenting terrorism goes on for sooo long that firangs become career experts on it, start writing books about it and give US congressional testimonies about it, and even Council for Indian Muslims in UK join in the `Paki-bashing` by demanding that Musharraf shut down Pakistani terrorist organisations.`` -- sheesh lady i told u before and i`ll tell u again, u need to get some personal issues sorted out -- u sound just like a has-been nirupama rao when u say this -- u do know who she was/is shrimati jee?

Sadna again (yawn): ``All thi