The Triple Conspiracy

Farzana:


``What is this about allowing women to have four husbands? Does this amount to equal opportunity? I think not... ``

My point exactly. Fairness and equality is not just about one law, hence the need to change more than a few. Also, people need role models, hence the female prophet ...

There`s little point in giving someone a right to do something if they are too afraid or shamed to use it. Either we give women what men have or take away what men have unfairly hoarded.

Competetion makes things better, even the other sex.

Farzana, quality over quantity every time!

``I have chosen not to respond to the few cynics who seem to know about an agenda even here.``

this is lame..i claim pre-emption.

Anyways this law-shaw stuff is nonsense. There are plenty of laws that non-muslims have which seem in-step with modernity, but still the result is miserable marriages akin to slavery.

This is because we have rotten non-darwinian family systems. We still ``arrange`` our childrens marriages. This is the single-most source of all evil. This is what gives a foot-hold to undue interference and power to the respective families. Arranges marriage is a vestige of tribalism, where the clans economic and political interests are the most important.

Men and women (and not chidren) need to get kicked-out of homes and need to find their own mates, by using their olfactory organs if needed, and fight it out. And then they need to breed with each others support (watching a childbirth is the best contraceptive). They need to fight stuff out without help of their tribes.

In a couple of generations egality will be a rule irrespective of law. People who cannot participate in the cosmic mating rituals will watch their genes perish and all will be well. So, in short, its not the talaq or the kerosene-wielding mother-in-law the problem, its the evil doting families.

Anil:

You asked whether there have been any attempts in the past to bring about social reformation. I had written about it elsewhere and had in fact reproduced it a while ago...re-posting a large excerpt for you...

Rediff On The Net, Life/Style: Farzana Versey traces the Islamic pilgrim`s progress

The Islamic Pilgrim`s Progress

It`s such a funny situation. Some years ago, people found me terribly
liberal whenever I made a critical appraisal of Islam. Today, if I say
something in its favour, they brand me regressive or a closet fanatic!
There is a mistaken notion that every believer in Islam is blind to its
flaws. Way back in 1948, Sheikh Muhammad Ashraf published a journal called
The Islamic Literature, which listed, among its objectives, a need to find
a new interpretation of Islam to fit the changed conditions prevailing
then. The social conditions and mores the prophet had to deal with then
were primitive.

Tied as the religion is to a single source -- the holy book -- it is an
easy target. Every time it is sought to be evaluated, its authority gets
diminished for it is invariably evaluated on the basis of the Shariat.
However, in 1951, Jordan brought in a legislation ostensibly based on the
Ottoman Law of Family Rights which set down many changes, especially
regarding divorce. According to it, a woman can stipulate in her marriage
contract that she has the right to divorce her husband; he, on the other
hand, might be permitted to utter the word talaq, but on three separate
occasions.

Besides this, reformers within the community have raised important
questions -- when the text lays down certain commandments, do they mean,
``You shall (not) or you may (not)? Are they matters of conscience which
will be tried in heaven, or are they subject to the action of an earthly
court? How far is a divine ordinance binding when the conditions under
which it was promulgated have passed away?``

For the purpose of discussion, we may voice aloud Koenraad Elst`s
apprehensions: ``Reason is bound to defeat Islam.`` All belief systems do
not depend on systematisation, but on belief. What Kierkegaard said about
Christianity`s appeal lying in it being transempirical and untestable
could as well apply to Islam or any other religion.

What makes Islam`s position peculiar is that it cannot cope with the
essential duality of the sacred and the profane within its ambit, unlike
other religions. One reason for this, seen purely from the sociological
perspective, is the painstaking attempt by academicians to demarcate
Islamic fundamentalism from Islamic revivalism.

There is no complementary attempt to make a distinction between Islam and
the Muslim although, even according to the Koran, the Muslims are not a
unified body of people: ``Those believers who sit at home are not equal to
those who fight in the way of God with their goods and their persons.``

Dear dost-mittarji:

Let me answer some of your queries...
``If there are different interpretations, to whom will the APMLB interpretation apply, or do the courts use different interpretations for different IM communities?``

The MPLB`s interpretation would not apply to Ismailis, Bohras and certain other communities; the courts come into the picture only when both the parties resort to legal separation.

``Regarding registration, can either spouse register the marriage or do both parties have to agree to register it?``

Both the parties have to be present at the registration together with their respective witnesses.

``Do you know how many women are there on the APMLB and who appoints/nominates/elects them?``

I am sorry, but am not certain; trying to get info on this.

``Finally, did you publish this article elsewhere too?``

Not this version. Although I had written about the Khatoonisa case a few years ago and was usd in some Gulf newspaper as well! I have also written about different forms of talaq earlier...

PS: It is difficult for some people to digest it when I do in fact question certain practices of the Muslim community. I have chosen not to respond to the few cynics who seem to know about an agenda even here. My silence has left this board free of an inter-religious battle, which I most certainly did not want, and the reason why I have refused to discuss other laws.

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Satire:
What is this about allowing women to have four husbands? Does this amount to equal opportunity? I think not...

Vertex # 66

You ask ``Since the court has executed the marriage contract, and is necessarily involved when the divorce takes place…how can the man get away with uttering triple talaq. ``

Good question. In Pakistan, in 1962 when Muslim Family Law was enacted - prior to that there was no formal procedure to register the Nikah i.e. pre-Nuptial agreement. Most of the nikah, especially in villages were done verbally in front of four witnesses. or even if a nikahnama was written down, it was written by qazi so qazi and not the state were the executors. This evil was handed down to us by british who abolished the centuries-old institution of Qazi-ul-Qazat in just one instance. So after 1962 state of Pakitan had no jurisdiction over a pre-nuptial contract that was not executed by itself in the first place. Threfore, that is the reason there are both provisions in law. In law abiding societies such -necessary evils have a sunset clause - but pakistan is a banana republic where rulers are the one who gang rape all laws including constitution, what to expect a law that protects a lowly creature like woman.

In addition, even though there is this law of progressive talaqs in the books, state has no interest in it to enforce it. People have no confidence in courts either and they try to settle outside. The judges take bribes sitting right in their courtrooms. Even if you want a court date you have to bribe judge through his registrar otherwise you wont get a date in years. Now since men are financially stronger than woman they can bribe judges to not give dates to the women who is seeking a khulla. Usally such cases drag on for years and by that time childrens are old enough and woman loses the right to their custody any way. So this is the situation with law and its enforcement in real world. That is the reason I am against enacting new laws because it just opens up new avenues for judges and enforcvement officials to take bribes and make the life of human beings miserable. I will favor new laws when I will be sure that laws will be enfored as well.

Urstruly,

Sorry for the late reply. Was out of town for the long week-end...

Some clarification: are you implying that the recourse for women is to try to pre-empt the triple talaq by going to the courts first? Also, I am confused as to why the first procedure (i.e. the triple talaq without court involvement) is a viable option. Since the court has executed the marriage contract, and is necessarily involved when the divorce takes place…how can the man get away with uttering triple talaq. Wouldn’t the courts be justified in treating it as one?

Thanks…

t bhai …

Agreed with everything you said … but must ask … why “maulana” me?

When did I ever argue against basic decency … or objected to someone worshipping a monkey or two lesbians exchanging love vows … ? I am all for civility and paying property taxes on time. On occasion I did condemn bad poetry … but does that make me a maulana? Huh??

Dear Farzana:
Thanks for an informative article, telling us about the various interpretation of muslim divorce law in different Indian communities; somehow I had assumed that the same law applied to all IMs. If there are different interpretations, to whom will the APMLB interpretation apply, or do the courts use different interpretations for different IM communities? Regarding registration, can either spouse register the marriage or do both parties have to agree to register it? Do you know how many women are there on the APMLB and who appoints/nominates/elects them? [sorry, I haven`t read most of the interacts and you may have already answered these questions.]

``Most Muslims do not give a hoot about Islam``
Or christians about christianity or hindus about hindu religion. Life is beautiful!

Finally, did you publish this article elsewhere too?

Farzana:

I have often wondered why someone from within Islam, not look at the subset of tenets and beliefs of Islam, and bring them out as the social contracts and bill of rights for modern Islamic society? I would assume that a subset would be acceptable to all civilized societies.

History tells us that external forces from societies whose economic well being is threatened, will continue to mount pressure until such a movement comes out from within. This was true in Brahmanic times and Buddhist and Jain reforms came out, I am certain during pre-Christian and pre-Islamic times similar situations must have prevailed. Certainly more recently even non-relgious forces (like Communist countries) triggered changes from within after a sustained external pressure. Within a society there will always be forces that will be the vanguard for such changes who will fight against the forces which refuse to accept a smaller subset. I refuse to believe that Islamic thoughts and socieites are incapable of producing such reformers, and can only produce Osama Bin Ladins. Come to think of it, Mohamad was born in pre-Islamic Arabia, however, great many scholars were born in Islamic times also. May be someone can tell me how many reformers (not enforcers / preachers) have come from within Islamic societies, and what kind of opposition they had to face. I have heard about one Turkish reformer, Ataturk.

Anil

Hi Veeresh:

Interesting inputs, but am not sure about some...
[#56...would it be kind of socially correct to interpret the rapidly changing female/male ratio in some parts of the country as one reason for the change in the talaq rule? I mean, here we have districts where, regardless of religion, the female to male ratio is around 700 females per 1000 males.]

I think it is more likely to be a rethink on the part of some people given the international perception of Islam being a religion from the cave ages. There is a genuine attempt to distance IMs from other Islamic societies, and when we see ourselves against, say, Turkey or Malaysia, we do come out looking silly in certain contexts.

The fact that the MPLB has also made provisions for women inheriting agricultural land is a sort of indicator that the issue is not solely about talaq, but about giving some basic rights to women. How and when it will be implemented is another matter.

[Truth is, as I discovered after a rapid trip to some rather desolate/back in history parts of the countryside near Delhi, that it seems to be perfectly acceptable that if a man divorces or abandons his wife, then there seems to be no dearth of males willing to accept her.]

This is historical in nature...since Islam has not looked down on divorced/widowed women (we can of course point out several cases of other sorts of exploitation), acceptance has not been a problem; in fact, it is deemed to be `sawaab`. Among the Bohras, at least that is what they said several years ago, after a period of mourning for four months, a widow would be asked by her grown-up son whether she would be interested in marrying again.

[#59...2) Is the MPLB even relevant in some parts of India?]

It is politically relevant as a representative of the IMs, but as I wrote in this article, there are several communities that have their own forms of talaq, and other laws.
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#57 by nb:

Hope you are feeling better today...get well soon.

Nothing much heard about Bhanwari Devi anymore. Did you see `Bawander`? I hated it.

[Whenever I talk about discriminatory customs-the laws are fine as far as I`m concerned-one male relative will invariably say, ``Be grateful you`re not Muslim.``]

Lol...after reading some suggestions on this board, I too will say that to you, as you might be presented such unwanted `temptations` as a series of husbands :)
- - -

#58 by rahul_capri:

I was merely responding to your comment, ``As for those who are saying rejection of Quran altogether, every change has to be gradual``. I agree with you, which is why I said that each society`s perceptions differ.

[I would place my better judgement ahead of what my parents or any other entity tht I respect says. And that is sacrilegious in Islam,which worries me.]

There is no monolithic Islam, and re. the issue of talaq, I have brought that forth. Some groups do consider the Islamailis and Bohras and other sects not real Muslims, but when there are divisions even among the `purer` ones, being sacrilegious too is a matter of perception. Most Muslims do not give a hoot about Islam. It is a convenient ploy. If they did, there would not be so many fissures, as Islam and the Book would not permit it.

Farzana (#54):

The issue isn`t whether you (or most girls) prefer monogamy or that most men prefer monogamy as well. The issue isn`t even monogamy Vs. polygamy, or instant Vs. prolonged divorce being better. The issue is that a girl should have the same opportunity as anyone else (equality and fairness). Given the opportunity, more girls will be daring to say ``hey why can`t I have more than one boyfriend/partner/husband`` should they prefer it that way.

Equal opportunity doesn`t make people equal. It simple gives people the ability to earn their inequality. We aren`t created equal except perhaps identical twins and even they don`t stay equal for long.

Islamic laws do favor men though they may be better than what existed before 600 AD. In this era, either we scrap them for secular ones, or change them radically to allow a woman to have 4 husbands (along with 4 newspapers).

And boy, I thought the one god didn`t have a gender. That I leave to the ``manizing`` female prophet to decide.

Satire

PS,
Men (whether married/partnered/unattached) indeed have a lower average IQ than women but the lethal cocktail for them is stupidity mixed with sexual frustration.

The update:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/765003.cms

Triple Talaq to go out softly

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ MONDAY, JULY 05, 2004 05:25:53 AM ]

KANPUR/NEW DELHI: The All India Muslim Personal Law Board,
regarded as India`s most authoritative body on Muslim personal
law, has taken two significant steps forward. On Sunday, the
board decided to launch a time-bound campaign to discourage
`triple talaaq in one sitting` by asking Muslims all over the
country to adopt the Shariat-approved talaaq-e-ehsan (one
divorce in one sitting).


In another decision that could affect the lives of millions of
Muslim women, the board called for a revision of legal
provisions which exclude women from inheriting agricultural
property.

Expressing concern over the misuse of `triple talaaq in one
sitting`, a majority of the 41-member board`s executive
committee were of the view that the procedure should be
discouraged and the model Nikahnama drafted by the board
adopted instead.

Briefing mediapersons, the board`s general secretary, Maulana
Syed Nizamuddin, said, ``The executive committee, after
reviewing the work done for social reform, has decided to
launch an intensive campaign appealing and persuading the
community to follow the rules of the Shariat in matters of
marriage, termination of marriage by talaaq, rights and
obligations of husband and wife and inheritance.`` The board
would take stock of the situation at the general body meeting
to be held in Calicut in Kerala in December 2004, he added.

The model Nikahnama suggests that in case of any marital
dispute, the contesting parties should either appoint an
arbitrator (who may be an elder from either side) or should
approach the Darul Quza, who would settle the dispute as per
the marriage contract (Nikahnama) and Shariat laws, said Qasim
Rasool Ilyas, the Muslim personal law board spokesperson.

Yusuf Hatim Muchala, a board member, was of the opinion that
triple talaaq should be used only in emergency cases and
extreme circumstances when instant divorce became necessary.

Besides the triple talaaq and model Nikahnama, the board
reviewed the report of the Darul Quza committee.

The promised ``more``.

A chance remark by an observant and intelligent Pakistani journalist, from the increasingly emancipated Urdu media there, sent me on a bit of a search last weekend.

This journalist told me that in India ``more Muslim girls are marrying Hindu boys lately``, and at that juncture, I chose to put it aside as a bit of whinging. He then put me in touch with some clerics who gave me some more details. I also did discuss this in Delhi with some people who know about such matters, and transpires that the female-male ratio skews in some parts of UP, Haryana and Rajasthan, are leading to situations where brides are being sought from far and brought into families.

Now obviously, if a typical rural/semi-rural family brings in a bride from an area where there are language and cooking differences, then there is a problem.

So, looking closer, and that means taking a drive to areas around Delhi where population demographics by religion did not change much after 1947, it seems that families of cast-away young Muslim girls, who have been divorced for a variety of reasons (shotgun marriages with visiting rich Muslims, triple talaq divorces for a variety of reasons, etc.) are not averse to the idea of getting such young women married into neighbourhood familes where language and food, as well as other traditions, are similar.

Obviously there is a lot of secrecy behind such marriages.

1) Is the MPLB reacting to such scenarios?

2) Is the MPLB even relevant in some parts of India?

I shall be back with more inputs.

Farzana #53
``I think it is foolhardy to take away something that is so important to so many. It is the very basis of society as most know it. The change has to be in the matter of perception and execution. And each society will have different needs...this must be borne in mind.``
Farzana, I have no problems with respect. I respect respect. I too respect Gita in a vague sort of way.But I would always place my better judgement and the sense of what I think is wrong or right ahead of Gita. I would place my better judgement ahead of what my parents or any other entity tht I respect says. And that is sacrilegious in Islam,which worries me.
Imade all the arguments I could in a long and winding discussion I had with tahmed on this topic on the Secularity of India board, if you are interested
``I even found a copy of Iravati Karve`s interpretation of the `Mahabharata` translated into Gujarati. Have you read her? ``
No I havent. I have read the Narendra Kohli version though which is quite engaging.

Farzana,
have been in bed with flu( winter Down Under!) so haven`t written earlier. I am so glad this is happening, because anything that happens to women in India affects all Indian women sooner or later, whether it be the Bhanwari rape case (what`s she doing now, btw) or Shah Bano. No woman is an island, etc. Whenever I talk about discriminatory customs-the laws are fine as far as I`m concerned-one male relative will invariably say, ``Be grateful you`re not Muslim.`` They`d still say that because of the political face of Islam being that cultured man so partial to naachne-gaanewalis Mr Bukhari, but at least it`s one step in making the law more fair.