The Mullah and the Munir Report

Pakistan`s provincial govts. are quite interestingly placed. After a few years, it should become quite clear, which ones have performed well and which ones have not. Specifically for the voting public, of which, the Chowk crowd consists of a tiny microscopic minority. It is in fact quite possible that more of us vote in North America, than in Pakistan.

NWFP is completely maulvi. Baluchistan is half maulvi. Punjabi has a non-theorcratic, though conservative govt. And Sind has the most secular govt., with a secular opposition (sidenote: secular by Pakistani standards, that is).

People will generally vote for the govts. that give them the most physical secuirty, and provide them the most jobs. Hardly any voter gets into legalistic issues about secularism and religion that get discussed here.

Based on whatever I have been reading, primarily in the English press, the best performing govt. is in Punjab. And the worst performing is in Sind. With the two mauvli govts. performing in between.

Let`s see how things pan out in a few years.........I personally think that as long as the non-theocratic politcal space is dominated by feudals and their lifetime leaders, the maulvis will continue to rise. PPP making fun of maulvis is like a bank robber making fun of someone who is stealing from a pan shop. The pot calling the kettle black. I think people look at things other than religion, when they vote. They look at Swiss fraud cases, the fact that despite voting for ANP, PPP and PML, there livelihoods have not improved.

If the MMA can get out of its middle-aged financial policies, it will win more. Because it is the only party in Pakistan, specifically Jamaat-i-Islami - that provides any kind of a structured political system, within its parties.

``With the possible exception of the Jamaat-i-Islami, no other political party has been built on strong political foundations. The governing party in the present National Assembly has morphed several times and it is only now that it is attempting to bring about some organizational improvements.``(famous economist Shahid Burki)

The best thing the maulvi, thus, has going for him, is that the liberal sphere in Pakistani politics continues to be dominated by the PPP......

Hello micro brains

Stop this nonsense and become an Atheist!!

``Nothing exists but natural phenomena. There are no supernatural forces or entities, nor can there be any. Nature simply exists``

Stop for Nature`s Sake!!! ha ha ha ha

God does not exist. So stop fighting in the name of religion.


Atheist

Mr Urstrully,

While you are busy fihting others, you have missed post #83 by Hellbound, Let me draw your attention to the inovation done her by Mr. Hellbound, about the fundamental beliefs of Iman ايمان , known to muslims through Quran

1. Belief in unity of God
2. Belief in prophets of God
3. Belief in Angels of God
4. Belief in Books of God
5. Belief in life after death
6. Belief in day of judgement

inform me of your opinion, and dont forget the command of God

والله يُحب المقسطين Allah loves those who are equitable.

Mr Urstruly,

Would you please elaborate on what you Wrote:

---

The Islamic law on the issue of proselytization is very specific. According to this law, in Muslim land no other faith can be allowed to proselytize among Muslim subjects. Since the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death as prescribed by Holy Prophet (pbuh) himself, the law makes sense. However, non-Muslim subjects are exempt from this rule. They can proselytize among themselves all they want. If and when this law will be enacted, it will take care of Ahmadi grievances about this issue.

---

and who gave this authority to anyone or to the Mullah attributing scuh a false, imbalnced, unjustified approach to خاتم النبين peace be upon him. Is not this a big accusation on Holy Prophet? bigger then the accusation by worst enemies of Quran and Islam?

And dont forget the last post, that is, Allah loves those who are equitable. COMMIT IT TO YOUR MEMORY, QURAN SAYS THIS, such a simple proof against what Mullahs attribute to Holy Prophet. REMEMBER اقساط EQUALITY.

Now the burden of proof is on your shoulders, to present that evidance, Where Holy Prophet prescribed this practice himself (نعوذ بالله), which I am sure does not exist in Quran, nor in Sunnah of Holy Prophet. And do not bother to present it if from Parallel Mullah theology.

Thanks, Rizwan

Well stated arguments and quotes!

As for Iqbal`s philosophy, his `reconstruction of religious thought in islam` wasn`t that great a book. There were some parts that are applicable and worthy of to help solve today`s problems. But for the most part, it was highly dull. Al-Farabi back in the 9th century tried to `reconcile` philosophy with religion. It may have made sense then. I don`t know if it still makes sense to do this in the 20th century. One could even say that if after a THOUSAND years you are STILL whacking your head trying to subject philosophy, as well as now science, to a belief system structured over 1400 years ago, there is something really wrong. It shows a complete lack of progress and intellectual impotency.

Ol` Man Bala had some great poems. But much of his philosophy and even poetry seems `all over the place`. Of course all of you know far more about Iqbal than I will ever know, but when he says lines like:

juda ho deen say siyasat to reh jaati hai changezi!

it`s quite obvious that in the current context you`d say he would be better off replacing `juda ho` with `mill jayay`.

**

I would just like to add that under the current manipulative fauji system, not party is doing as well as the MMA. They could not have dreamed of something like this in their wildest imaginations.

Pagaal Insaan …#90 … right on!!!

Jahil mullahs like Urstruly insist on killing apostates … despite such barbarism being negated by one’s conscience as well as clear Qurnaic commandments.

Quran states that those who leave Islam are answerable to Allah only. But mullah Urstrluy … to satiate the beast within … insists on killing apostates.

Furthermore ...

Urstrly Sahib also insists that punishment for adultery is death! When I pointed to Quran, which sets maximum punishment to lashes, Urstrly Shaib quoted ahadith … and argued that when Quran says lashes, it actually means death. Huh??? What the hell ...

If this does not make any sense … believe me … it is not your fault!!!

Re: Urstruly


Sir,

a) For all the information I posted, I cited the sources. None of the sources was authored by an Ahmedi.

b) Tazkira Rashidiyya is a Deobandi Publication, we can therefore safely assume that it is not biased against the Deoband Movement.

c) How can we verify the information that YOU posted, through an unbiased source other than a Deobandi hate Publication?

Urstruly (#76),

These are the high points of your debate on annexation of Gurdaspur … which you blamed on “the grand Ahmadi conspiracy”.

You suggested that Gurdaspur was 80% Muslim, was initially given to Pakistan, and Chaudhry Zafrulla Khan conspired with Mountbatten to give Gurdaspur to India. You went on to quote a dialogue between Jinnah and Chaudhry Zafrulla to support this thesis.

When you were asked for your sources of information, you badly fumbled.

- You admitted that you made up (completely fabricated, out of thin air) the figure of “80% Muslim population in Gurdaspur”. The actual figure was 50-51% according to Munir Report (which counts Ahmadis as Muslims!!!).

- Your source of information … was “people you talked to” … who diligently made you aware of the grand Ahmadi conspiracy. The dialogue between Jinnah and Zafrulla that you cited … turned out to be something you fabricated to lend credence to your hot air claims.


And you insist that you proved … that Ahamdis were responsible for Gurdaspur, Kashmir, and one million lives lost in the riots! The only thing you proved ... and admitted to ... was that you blatantly lied ... and that your source of information is ``people you talked to``. Bloody hell ... what more needs to be said ...?

Merely insisting does not make an argument .. it only turns one into a delusional mullah …

Re: Urstruly #87,


Sir,

If the Holy Prophet suggested a punishment of death of apostacy, and disallowed people of other faiths to proselytize among muslims subjects, he violated the following very clear Koranic injunction:

Say: ``O ye men! now Truth hath reached you from your Lord! Those who receive guidance do so for the good of their own souls; those who stray do so to their own loss: and I am not (set) over you to arrange your affairs.`` (10:108)

Imam Ibne Jareer Tabri (923 AD) defines in his tafseer Tabri, the phrase ﻞﻴﮐﻮﺑ ﻢﮑﻴﻠﻋ ﺎﻧﺍ ﺎﻣ ﻭ
as: ﻢﻳﻮﻘﺗ ﻲﻠﻋ ﻂﻠﺴﻤﺑ ﻢﮑﻴﻠﻋ ﺎﻧﺍ ﺎﻣ ﻭ i.e. I have not been enforced on you to keep you in Islam by force.


Sir, when you associate a belief to Islam, it is advisable to substantiate your point by quoting appropriately from the Islamic scriptures, rather than using oral rhetoric.

Urstruly (#87),

You don’t believe what I wrote … since your thinking is clouded by your desire to politicize Islam.

There was an on-going debate among Muslim scholars … whether jihad against the British was called for, or not. And quite a few scholars took the position in the negative. And this is what is PagaalInsaan is trying to shed light on. It is therefore incorrect to conclude that Ahmadis supported British since they refused to fight and kill the British.

Furthermore, it is a fact that under the Britsh rule, the mullahs were not allowed to blatantly persecute Ahmadis ... and only a fool, or a killing-crazy mullah, will fail to appreciate this.

Read what is being written and use common sense. If you draw illogical, incorrect conclusions … that’s your problem.

++++++++++++++++


Hellbound …

The issue is not whether Ahmadis are considered Muslims or not. If one decides to think of others as non-Muslims, that’s his right. The matter rests between Allah and this individual only.

This however, is a different from the state declaring Ahmadis as non-Muslims … imprisoning them for reciting kalima … not allowing them to give aazan … and so on. This treatment betrays spirit of humanity and civility … and goes against the message of Islam. Incidentally, “Muslim” is the term used by Allah Almighty in Quran for believers … and no one is given the right to declare others non-Muslims against their wishes. However, our mullahs love to play god every chance they get … and that’s the travesty of our times …

Sattar # 85

I do not beleive a word you have written. On one hand you present your case why British were supported and how its is a good thing. And at the same time another Quadiani copy&paste selective quotes of Muslims from Quadiani hate sites and comment how supporting british was a bad thing that those ``renegades`` did? How can one thing be bad and good at the same time? Do you people have any moral or ethical values or is it this extent of hate that has blinded you to this degree?

Hellbound

The Islamic law on the issue of proselytization is very specific. According to this law, in Muslim land no other faith can be allowed to proselytize among Muslim subjects. Since the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death as prescribed by Holy Prophet (pbuh) himself, the law makes sense. However, non-Muslim subjects are exempt from this rule. They can proselytize among themselves all they want. If and when this law will be enacted, it will take care of Ahmadi grievances about this issue.

As far as Christian missionaries are concerned, I don`t think the Ulemma felt threatened enough. One reason is that they (missionaries) do not take a proactive approach. So far their performance has been pathetic. I will be really amazed if someone told me that they have converted 500 Muslims to Christianity since Pakistan came indto being. As compared to Christian Missionaries in Muslim world the performance of Muslim missionaries in Christendom has been phenomenal.

But in my personal opinion, this is a criminal negligence on part of Ullema. The Christian Missionaries although haven`t been able to convert any musilms but they have succeeded in creating a slave-minded upper crust of society who has been attending Saint-this and Saint-that schools and convents. Now because of them we have a ruling class who is ashamed of making connection to their roots in society- they think like their masters- they act like their masters - their antipathy towards their fellow human beings is just breathtaking, not to mention how they have corrupted every institution in our society. So in a sense the Christian Missionaries have been phenomenally successful as well. It is because of this negligence the whole nation is paying through its nose. I blame Mullah for this negligence.

Re: Hellbound

Sir

a) All Ahmedis believe in the truth of the claims and teachings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed of Qadian because they consider them to be in accordance with ``the established belief system``, and they quote the Koran, the Hadith, and the prominent Muslim scholars in favour of their views.

``The established belief system`` is not what your mother taught you when you were young, because everybody`s mother teaches them an ``established belief system`` which is essentially different from what a lot of other mothers teach their children, and everybody`s mother teaches them that their belief system is the obvious truth.



b) Which one of the 72 sects of Islam do you refer to as the ``Established Belief System``? Justice Munir correctly points out, ``Keeping view the several different definitions given by the ulama, need we make any comment except that no two learned divines are agreed on this fundamental. If we attempt our own definition as each learned divine has done and that definition differs from that given by all others, we unanimously go out of the fold of Islam. And if we adopt the definition given by any one of the Ulama, we remain Muslims according to the view of that alim, but kafirs according to the definitions of everyone else.”

You missed the point! Re-read the report.

Urstruly (#65),

You are twisting facts to make them fit your political agenda.

Ahmadis did not invite the British to India. Ahmadi position is that … the pre-requisites to fighting jihad mentioned in Quran did not apply, and hence there was no room for a crusade against the British. Furthermore, the fact remains that the British did not allow persecution of Ahamdis … at the hands of animals of your kind. And that was certainly a good thing.

Note that some of your mullahs had issued fatwas that Ahmadis are worthy of being killed. Even animals do not sink this low. Apparently you mullahs did.

As a parallel, I cited the example of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who enjoyed the protection of an infidel (his uncle) who was a tribal leader. In short, such protection, for the right reasons, is divine blessing.

The rest of your post is bogus propaganda … based on hyperbole and nonsensical ramblings. But then again, what more can be expected from you mullahs … who’d also kill a Hindu for preaching his faith!!!


MaudidiLives,

Your posts seem to suggest that … besides making one-time, hateful, cut-and-paste posts … you are unable to reason and to sustain a dialogue. I have explained the points you raised, and provided the appropriate background. Continuing to make more posts … while ignoring facts … only proves you to be another sub-intelligent mullah …

Pagalinsaan

Is there a way to verify the material that you have posted thru another unbiased source other than Quadiani hate sites.

For example, your contention about Deobandi Ulema is absolutely wrong and contrary to well known facts. For example, isn`t it true that Moulana Rashid Gangohi was one of the 36 signatories of the fatwa that asked Muslims to wage Jihad against British during the 1857 War of Independence. Isn`t it true that in Delhi alone 500 ulema were masacared by British during that time. And by the way who were the people incarcerated in Malta, which was the then equivalent of today`s Guantanamo Bay`s camp x-ray? They were all Deobandi ullema. Ever heard of Amnbala Conspiracy Cases? Do you know who faught at Shamli, Sehranpur?

Therefore, I must urge you to look elsewhere for the truth, other than Quadiani hate sites.

Mantolives

Sorry for the delay in my response, and a very valid argument indeed in your post 38. Although I give off the marxist impression, I am further away from the ideaology than it would appear. Anyways, you said something about ideology of the commentators on the digital Channels. Indeed these people, specially like Dr Shahid, who shows an extreme sense of religious ascription, yet one thing I noticed was the extreme form of patriotism that he has for Pakistan. You cannot deny that, and unlike the Mullah, who has almost no patriotism for the state, and all his fervour is religious in pedigree.

Solutions

Feudalism is a Smaller problem than the Army, The Army and its meglomaniac attitude towards Pakistan is the bigger of our current problems. Feudalism has wrecked democracy in Pakistan with the likes of Clan worship and ever ready voting banks for the Bhuttos and the Sharifs, Electoral democracy does not work, MMA and their swift rise is based on that. The biggest question is that in a fair election, where the feudal bhuttos and the mongering Sharifs have full swing, how will the MMA fare? That is the true question. It will either be a landslide for MMA, or it will be a total loss. This would essentially prove or disapprove the religious right`s proclamation of Pakistani Society`s move towards religion and away from secularism. I personally dont think that they will generate the type of electoral success they did in the last ``fixed`` elections, which was intended to be a landslide for the King`s Party, but the king lost two provinces yet still regained much of the control.

If there are free elections in Pakistan, Bhutto will become the PM, the PPP voting banks are swelling because of the repression of the last few years. This is extremely negative as what will follow is a vengeance of sorts by the ousted Bhutto who will wreck havoc on lives and finances of the nation.

My solution is that we need to have leaders who are Secular yet Religious, who have a balanced outlook on the nation`s social progression. Mindful of the religious ambitions that the silent majority has. Look we cannot ignore religion, it cannot be seperated from the state. It has to be aligned strategically where the leaders themselves seperate individual issues and levy the secular evenly against the religious implications. I know it sounds like pure fantasy, but think about it. The current problem is of extremes, everything and everyone is on either sides of the extreme. Creating the chaos and pandaemonium that we see resulting in a nation which is confused and dazed with the ambiguity of their identity.

Who is a true Pakistani Today? A religious man, A Liberal, A Progressive, A traditionalist.
Can a Pakistani not be all things at once? Leaders should be born out of this ideology, which is a very difficult juxtaposition of mindsets. Remember the most important and progressive period in Islamic history, and you will find Mullahs as Scientists, religious men reading and recording greek philosophy, we attained a moral balance than as a religious entity that we have never ever attained again. I am just asking us too look at Islamic History and the achievment of Baghdad before the Mongol Sacking of the City as the highlight and the benchmark of our achievement. Lets try to understand the moral centres achieved in that time. Emulation of which today will put us on the right track.

This is offcourse my opinion.