The Mullah and the Munir Report
Yasser Latif Hamdani July 11, 2004
#178 Posted by teshah on October 27, 2007 5:45:41 pm
Re: # 177
A correction:
Please read 'are' after Mullah in the 5th line.
A correction:
Please read 'are' after Mullah in the 5th line.
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#177 Posted by teshah on October 17, 2007 6:20:20 pm
Thanks for refreshing our memories. MIR is a classic indeed which must be publicized widely, preferably, in Urdu. It is pity that this report was sold away in 'raddi' and the bigoted Mullah playing havoc with the nation. Benazir is on the media rampage but no body asks her how she can talk about ZAB, democracy and the constitution in the same breath when it was ZAB who had converted the constitution into a 'Fatwa'
declaring a section of the citizens of Pakistan as 'non-muslim' to appease the Mullah who are now clamouring for a similar fatwa against the Shias.
declaring a section of the citizens of Pakistan as 'non-muslim' to appease the Mullah who are now clamouring for a similar fatwa against the Shias.
#176 Posted by EinZeitgeist on March 12, 2005 8:46:40 am
Bravo! Yasser its ppl like you who can do something worthwhile for all of us. For once I have seen some one referring to Justice Munir, without abuses and accusations. Yes, Justice Munir is some one, whom we haven`t studied beyond Moulvi Tamizuddin. May I just add here, The Commission formed immediately after the Qadiani movement, was headede by Justice Munir. The definition of a `musalman` was inquired from Maulana Maudoodi. No definite meaning could be attrributed to the concept of a `musalman`. It is matter of record, anyone diclaiming it can always refer to the Commission report.
As far the `macabre moster`. Its only the harvest which we sowed, through state machinery, and accepted by the society. We have to reap it.
As far the `macabre moster`. Its only the harvest which we sowed, through state machinery, and accepted by the society. We have to reap it.
#175 Posted by HaroonEllahi on October 5, 2004 1:06:37 pm
err I don`t know. this country is screwed.
#174 Posted by teshah on August 5, 2004 6:24:47 pm
170 by haroonellahi
Excuse me you are talking irrelevant. What do you mean by population awareness? Rulers talk of development but only in the number of donkeys not human beings. This is like a quack `hakeem` who advises you not to use all good things of life to get well. See America. There were only a few lacs of red Indians who were living a happy primtive life in the pre-Columbus America. The popuation of U.S.A. alone is now about 30 crores and they feed the whole world. In Pakistan most thinly ppulated province Balochistan is the poorest one. So the development is not related to the number of the people but their quality. So dear pseudo-Mulla don`t befool us. They want to stop proliferation of any kind in the `third world` because the Mullah have started producing `Khud kush` bombars which have neutralised the `Insan Kush` nukes of the west.
Excuse me you are talking irrelevant. What do you mean by population awareness? Rulers talk of development but only in the number of donkeys not human beings. This is like a quack `hakeem` who advises you not to use all good things of life to get well. See America. There were only a few lacs of red Indians who were living a happy primtive life in the pre-Columbus America. The popuation of U.S.A. alone is now about 30 crores and they feed the whole world. In Pakistan most thinly ppulated province Balochistan is the poorest one. So the development is not related to the number of the people but their quality. So dear pseudo-Mulla don`t befool us. They want to stop proliferation of any kind in the `third world` because the Mullah have started producing `Khud kush` bombars which have neutralised the `Insan Kush` nukes of the west.
#173 Posted by echoboom on July 19, 2004 9:30:03 pm
Haroonellahi:
It talks about a country where its police robs its citizens, the army takes its citizens pows, the doctors make the citizens sick, the teachers impart ignorance, the civil-servants rule, and the ``educated`` natives always take pride in acting alienish.
Have you an idea where such country is?
It talks about a country where its police robs its citizens, the army takes its citizens pows, the doctors make the citizens sick, the teachers impart ignorance, the civil-servants rule, and the ``educated`` natives always take pride in acting alienish.
Have you an idea where such country is?
#172 Posted by HaroonEllahi on July 19, 2004 7:00:52 am
I can`t read that urdu. Text is too small. What was the point of your post
#171 Posted by HaroonEllahi on July 18, 2004 9:31:59 pm
Support the Fauj... When Shaukat Aziz will be second in command his policies will greatly encourage economic growth. This will cause wealth to trickle down to the poor and rather unemployed. This will make people more happy with the system. now lets face it, even if you are a dirty drugs dealer and if you have the money you would want to send your childern to SCHOOL. so, with the advent of prosperity our people will automatically start sending their childern to schools. ( we need to ofcourse serve as catayalsts).
Once this takes place society will reform it self, the fauj will sooner or later have to leave, the neo-rockstar mullah establishment will be effectively marganilized and more tolerant Islamic Mullahs will come who will be true and not practice selective religion which the neo-rockstars do.
Only then will we be able to choose which way we as a society can move forward. But instead of doing boo-haha here, you can help. Firstly, if you have servants, tell them about Population awareness. They should try to limit their childern to 2. this way the standard of living will be higher. this is just one of the many million things you can do.
Also, if you really want to help, when you are not watching TV, using the computer or anything else UNPLUG it. it save alot of eletricity.
:)
Once this takes place society will reform it self, the fauj will sooner or later have to leave, the neo-rockstar mullah establishment will be effectively marganilized and more tolerant Islamic Mullahs will come who will be true and not practice selective religion which the neo-rockstars do.
Only then will we be able to choose which way we as a society can move forward. But instead of doing boo-haha here, you can help. Firstly, if you have servants, tell them about Population awareness. They should try to limit their childern to 2. this way the standard of living will be higher. this is just one of the many million things you can do.
Also, if you really want to help, when you are not watching TV, using the computer or anything else UNPLUG it. it save alot of eletricity.
:)
#170 Posted by echoboom on July 18, 2004 9:31:59 pm
MULLAH is & never was even an issue. It is the TULLAH* ( the uniformed ones) who is the issue.
If you feel secure, sleeep well, move-around with `class` & pseudo-respectability you must be one of the looters, dacoits or the salaried one--corrupt and corrupting kind with sharaabi, kanjaRR, or haraamee ``connections``.
Crime in the Islamic republic of Pakistan is of four kind: White Collar, Blue Collar, Black Collar AND Amreekee Collar (for biped canines).
* Policemen & now-faujees are called esp. in karachi.
If you feel secure, sleeep well, move-around with `class` & pseudo-respectability you must be one of the looters, dacoits or the salaried one--corrupt and corrupting kind with sharaabi, kanjaRR, or haraamee ``connections``.
Crime in the Islamic republic of Pakistan is of four kind: White Collar, Blue Collar, Black Collar AND Amreekee Collar (for biped canines).
* Policemen & now-faujees are called esp. in karachi.
#169 Posted by teshah on July 17, 2004 10:56:49 pm
Iqbal is stated to have called Ahmadies traitors to Islam and India. But what he said about the Mullah in one of his urdu couplets: -
``Deen-e-mullah fi sabeelillah fassaad`
It is therefore more justified to declare the mullah as a non-muslim minority when their `Deen` according to Allama Iqbal Rehmatullah is `Deen-e- Fassaad`, the very antithesis to Islam and their `Kalima` is `Khuda ki khudai khatam, Nabi ki nabuwat khatam, insan ki insaniat khatam, mullah ki mullah gardi zinda baad`. But the tragedy is we have now to choose only between the `Fouj gardi` and the `Mullah gardi`, apparently the only viable political forces on the ground in Pakistan.
``Deen-e-mullah fi sabeelillah fassaad`
It is therefore more justified to declare the mullah as a non-muslim minority when their `Deen` according to Allama Iqbal Rehmatullah is `Deen-e- Fassaad`, the very antithesis to Islam and their `Kalima` is `Khuda ki khudai khatam, Nabi ki nabuwat khatam, insan ki insaniat khatam, mullah ki mullah gardi zinda baad`. But the tragedy is we have now to choose only between the `Fouj gardi` and the `Mullah gardi`, apparently the only viable political forces on the ground in Pakistan.
#166 Posted by AhmadBilal on July 16, 2004 10:14:15 pm
#162 by veeresh
Saudi Arabia remains a strong candidate for regime change. :) Thanks.
Saudi Arabia remains a strong candidate for regime change. :) Thanks.
#165 Posted by sattar2 on July 16, 2004 6:31:02 pm
… here’s a snapshot of rambling mullahs on this board … as I leave the office for a glorious weekend … (drum roll, please …)
Urstruly … continues to perform his “heejRah naach” around the issue … hopes to befriend a two-bit crack whore who, for some perverted reason, reminds him of his house maid … thinks Pakistan is a failed state because of Ahmadis … continues to nurse childhood crushes on his cousins … male and female … as well as the maulana who taught him quran …
MaududiLives and Malik99 … quoted others to validate their own views. When asked to think on their own, went “duh?” … and stopped posting. Believe that reason and thought are for evil white folks … “momin” should only memorize Quran and beat women into observing purdah. Naturally inclined to bashing Ahmadis … diligently carry lotta to workplace …
Hellbound … started out acting like a neutral party, later removed his mask and claimed ownership of Islam (shares this trait with tahmed). Frequently borrows lotta from Maududi and Malik … blames the doctor for taking off too much when he was circumcised … wants to persecute Ahamdis to get even with the society …
escapist … sincerely recommends idiotic books from mindless mullahs. Wanted to share lotta with hellbound, but was firmly told ‘no’ … claims mouthwash was invented by a jew, and resists using it … (same for deodorant) … wants to undergo circumcision again to renew his faith … but does not trust the Ahmadi doctor in the nearby hospital …
……………… and the rest … as they say … is history …
............................................... and ... I .... am .... outta .... here .... whhheeeee
#164 Posted by sattar2 on July 16, 2004 12:00:51 pm
So this is the truth about mullah Urstruly …
.. he fails to substantiate his claims against Ahmadis. Such intellectual decay has become hallmark of the ummah in general. They lack ability to think and to reason… and are left with blind faith, hatred, and violent tendencies. And these morons want to be in charge of running a country. Go figure …
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) foretold that a time will come when scholars of his ummah will be the worst of Allah’s creations … which I presume includes “children of prostitutes” … (here you go Urstruly … I couldn’t help nailing this back on you …). Clearly Urstruly and his mullahs fit this description. When it comes to intellectual integrity … they are limping eunuchs … men without manliness … incestuous transvestites raised by two-bit whores …
Some general comments …
It’s been over a hundred years … and mullahs still struggle to find dirt on Ahmadis. All they have is rhetoric, innuendo, and claims that fall apart into the second round of dialogue. Their efforts to suppress the truth through violent persecution of Ahmadis has failed them … and Ahmadi-Muslims have gone on the spread the message of the Promised Messiah of Islam all over the world.
This is something for the mullahs to ponder over … three of your kings who took persecution of Ahmadis to new heights … namely Faisal, Bhutto, and Zia … were killed like animals by the Hand of Almighty. This fits with the model of prophethood and fanatics … mentioned in Quran. Each and every time a prophet of Allah appears, the corrupt elements of the society start propaganda against him and his community … this is followed by violent persecution … but the community of Allah’s prophets remain steadfast, shun violence, and continue to be bestowed with success at each juncture.
Word to the mullahs … bring it on boys … you’ll continue to fall flat on your faces … just look at posts from Urstruly to see why …
#163 Posted by sattar2 on July 16, 2004 12:00:51 pm
Escapist (#150) … sorry … not interested …
I have read enough of your rambling mullahs … who are only good at twisting facts and hiding the truth. Facts speak for themselves … and the fact is that your mullahs have failed you … miserably. Social, political, economic, and intellectual decay of the ummah adequately attests to this.
...so take this book from your mullah … and shove it. Ask your local imam for help if needed ...
#162 Posted by veeresh on July 16, 2004 8:10:46 am
Hi Ahmed/160 thank you for your response . . . I am not implying that lack of education for women in Pakistan is only because of fatwas, it is obviously because of a variety of reasons . . . however, ````perhaps your & my Deobandi brethren could stop trying to please the Saudi religious officialdom and remember that their educational movement was founded by the leader of the Chishtiyya-Sabiriyya-Imdadiyya school of Sufism.````
Cheers, and as I have said before, I know there is some rapid & drastic change about to take place in Pakistan, it is just that I am unable to figure out WHAT.
Met up with a very interesting and erudite lady last night here in India who is from The family in Karachi which controls The newspaper whose persona on chowk is trying to make me non grata . . . and some of these views were sourced for me by her.
#161 Posted by AhmadBilal on July 16, 2004 7:57:50 am
#159 by veeresh
Implying that lack of higher education among young Muslim girls (at least in Pakistan) is result of some Wahabi fatwa is a very incorrect assessment. Overwhelming majority of people doesn’t take this fatwa stuff seriously, and wouldn’t even know and care if anything like this exists. I think it is more about priorities and cultural factors. Most young girls in that part of the world are tuned by their families to start thinking in terms of becoming housewives as they start growing up, instead of going for higher education and building professional careers. The trend is shifting though, with increasing industrialization and economic pressures on middle class families. Anyway, speaking of fatwa stuff, I once came across another funny fatwa which said that girls should be taught to read (preferably Quran) and not write, so that they don’t write letters to other men. Thanks.
Implying that lack of higher education among young Muslim girls (at least in Pakistan) is result of some Wahabi fatwa is a very incorrect assessment. Overwhelming majority of people doesn’t take this fatwa stuff seriously, and wouldn’t even know and care if anything like this exists. I think it is more about priorities and cultural factors. Most young girls in that part of the world are tuned by their families to start thinking in terms of becoming housewives as they start growing up, instead of going for higher education and building professional careers. The trend is shifting though, with increasing industrialization and economic pressures on middle class families. Anyway, speaking of fatwa stuff, I once came across another funny fatwa which said that girls should be taught to read (preferably Quran) and not write, so that they don’t write letters to other men. Thanks.
#160 Posted by jang on July 16, 2004 7:57:50 am
#147 by Urstruly on July 15, 2004 12
this was the best post of the board. urs pen is blessed.
loved the qadiani ``sister`` as the forbidden fruit. (can she be a cousin sister this can solve a bunch dillemas?).
man this khutba thing sounds dangerous. get a bunch of folks together in a religious mood of conformance. just when they are feeling mellow, hit them with a political sermon. how dare any sheep stray from the flock in such an environment?
this was the best post of the board. urs pen is blessed.
loved the qadiani ``sister`` as the forbidden fruit. (can she be a cousin sister this can solve a bunch dillemas?).
man this khutba thing sounds dangerous. get a bunch of folks together in a religious mood of conformance. just when they are feeling mellow, hit them with a political sermon. how dare any sheep stray from the flock in such an environment?
#159 Posted by veeresh on July 16, 2004 5:11:31 am
I`ve been researching Mullahs and Maulanas for the last few days too, and I want to ask the Muslims on this board who are obviously computer literate to ask their other friends who may not be computer literate, and answer one simple question:-
Why do you ````have to put up with blank-check fatwas from Wahhabi weirdos telling young Muslim girls that it was haraam (religiously forbidden) to attend college and university, thus implying that it was fard (religiously mandatory) for at least 51% of the Muslim community (and 100% of their mothers) to remain uneducated?````
Never mind the Indo-Pak stuff for a while.
And, HP, does asking this question make me a Paki-basher, RSS drone, whatever?
Why do you ````have to put up with blank-check fatwas from Wahhabi weirdos telling young Muslim girls that it was haraam (religiously forbidden) to attend college and university, thus implying that it was fard (religiously mandatory) for at least 51% of the Muslim community (and 100% of their mothers) to remain uneducated?````
Never mind the Indo-Pak stuff for a while.
And, HP, does asking this question make me a Paki-basher, RSS drone, whatever?
#158 Posted by ferozk on July 16, 2004 1:10:54 am
re: Mantolives
Congrats! This is what I had been expecting from you for a long time on Chowk and that is not to be baited into a useless agrument! Now that you have learned to laugh at the``Chowk logic``, you will have a much more enjoyable time dealing, with all us jokers in this virtual circus! :)
As to my students, they would be too depressed if I did not act the fool in my classes! Haroon is a very motivated young man and I hope that he does well in his life; at what ever he attempts. I used to be idealistic till I graduated, but once I started working for a living, I realized that the words of that song by Simon & Garfunkle were right: ``...after all the crap I learned in high school (and college), it is a miracle that I can even think...`` ;)
Ciao
Congrats! This is what I had been expecting from you for a long time on Chowk and that is not to be baited into a useless agrument! Now that you have learned to laugh at the``Chowk logic``, you will have a much more enjoyable time dealing, with all us jokers in this virtual circus! :)
As to my students, they would be too depressed if I did not act the fool in my classes! Haroon is a very motivated young man and I hope that he does well in his life; at what ever he attempts. I used to be idealistic till I graduated, but once I started working for a living, I realized that the words of that song by Simon & Garfunkle were right: ``...after all the crap I learned in high school (and college), it is a miracle that I can even think...`` ;)
Ciao
#157 Posted by HP on July 15, 2004 11:30:25 pm
Sorry to steal this thread one more time.
QUESTIONS FOR CHOWK STAFF
I hope some body from the chowk staff answers these questions:
(since they have not been answered yet, I am reposting them for chowk staff`s attention)
Is the familiarity between the people increases when some RSS drones put ten posts every day to call all Pakistani Jihadi/Terrorist?
Is the familiarity between the people increases when every third post by them refers to Prophet Mohammed marrying a young woman without any context? See nb post#602 -If the Prophet took young wives … (There are more posts should chowk staff needs a complete list.)
Is the familiarity between the people increases when Islam and Muslim are attacked by them in every single post?
If the purpose of this site is to promote rivalry between the countries and promote people who do that openly than why hoodwink Pakistanis in to believing that this site promotes friendship between the two countries?
If the Chowk staff fails to answer my questions then all Pakistanis need to look at the this project that does not need Pakistani membership at all and start thinking about the alternates and some are available and others can be developed- not a problem at all.
What is more important? site`s goal or .....
QUESTIONS FOR CHOWK STAFF
I hope some body from the chowk staff answers these questions:
(since they have not been answered yet, I am reposting them for chowk staff`s attention)
Is the familiarity between the people increases when some RSS drones put ten posts every day to call all Pakistani Jihadi/Terrorist?
Is the familiarity between the people increases when every third post by them refers to Prophet Mohammed marrying a young woman without any context? See nb post#602 -If the Prophet took young wives … (There are more posts should chowk staff needs a complete list.)
Is the familiarity between the people increases when Islam and Muslim are attacked by them in every single post?
If the purpose of this site is to promote rivalry between the countries and promote people who do that openly than why hoodwink Pakistanis in to believing that this site promotes friendship between the two countries?
If the Chowk staff fails to answer my questions then all Pakistanis need to look at the this project that does not need Pakistani membership at all and start thinking about the alternates and some are available and others can be developed- not a problem at all.
What is more important? site`s goal or .....
#156 Posted by HaroonEllahi on July 15, 2004 11:30:24 pm
You know what would be funny, 1 maulvi, 1 cardinal, 1 rabiah, 1 prieft, 1 monk all danncing to that famous song in Texas. the one you sya BULL SHIT on! hahaha. Cuttin my joe or some thing. Lyhme dance or something! its a reeally cool dance! country clubs may hota hai. We just did it at the cruise in the river in New York city! :P
we as in me and my friends. not the religi brigade
we as in me and my friends. not the religi brigade
#155 Posted by escapist on July 15, 2004 10:45:20 pm
Mashriq o Maghrib
Yahaan maraz ka sabab hai ghulami-o-Taqleed
wahaan maraz ka sabab hai Nizaam-e-Jamhoori!
Na mashrqi is say baree hai, na maghrib is say baree
Jahaan main aaam hai qalb-o-nazar ki ranjoori!!
Iqbal.
Yahaan maraz ka sabab hai ghulami-o-Taqleed
wahaan maraz ka sabab hai Nizaam-e-Jamhoori!
Na mashrqi is say baree hai, na maghrib is say baree
Jahaan main aaam hai qalb-o-nazar ki ranjoori!!
Iqbal.
#154 Posted by MantoLives on July 15, 2004 10:07:26 pm
Ferozk...
Meray dost ghussa thook dey app...
Dekhay how brilliant your shagird has turned out :) It is all because you are making change by instilling the idealism that you do in them through your class...
A far cry from the disillusioned realist you try and unjustifiably present yourself on Chowk... I have always been impressed by your idealism... and so have your students...
Haroon elahi..
Your ideas are advanced for your age... I have always been nothing but impressed by what you have to say...
Thanks
#153 Posted by HaroonEllahi on July 15, 2004 9:46:32 pm
I think this debate is very interesting and there are many dimensions to it. However, I have one thing to say concerning post #127 by Mr. Ferozk,
If a Maulvi Sahib was preaching agaisnt a certain minority in Pakistan then you posed the question should you go up and tell him Mr. Jinnah`s quotes? To be honest, you have solved the problem more or less there. Our people might be wild and might be kinda emotional but they love the father of the nation. Every morning millions of Pakistani students chant songs in rememberenance of the Quaid. So, if one was to question the Maulvi Sahib in a civil manner while he was taking Questions then I honestly think the audience would react in a positive way. We must become into `good human beings with good ethics and morality hence be appealing to the masses``.
You people argue about the military, the mullahs, dictatorship vs democracy in the Pakistan but have you ever thought about why our people do not speak out agaisnt whatever is happening?
The simple answer to this is lack of employment and whereever there is employment its just too pathetic.
Ok! good show! no matter what system of government we have I think two things should be given UTTER MOST attention..
The judicial system of Pakistan and the industralization of Pakistani society must increased ten fold.
we as a country are in desperate need of a middle class. We do not have a middle class. Its either poor poor poor poor or rich rich richer.
As far as the judicial system is concerned we need to fix somes laws and properly implement the rest. To counter corruption, I suggest firing squads. For how long will we deny the urgency of now? Firing squads defianately with the option of repenting at the last moment... the firing squads have worked excellently in China. They will work superbly in Pakistan.
If we fix the judicary, then watch what happens. every thing will straighten it self up.
As far as industralization is concerned, just look at it this way. The average Pakistani is more concerned in making ends meet rather than think about Mullah A B C or fauj 1 2 3 or human rights a b c. He or she simply does not care !
Thus, we need to make policies to encourage industralization. From Spinning factories ( already a major source of employment) to all sorts of industry. We must start!
This way `wealth` will trickle down to a laarger majority of the population.
IF we can raise the living standards and GIVE them what they want then I believe Pakistan will be ripe to decide which way it has to go. But in order for this procedure to take place the judiciary must not only be fixed but must be protected from `germs` for at least 50 good years for this `enlightened Pakistan` to emerge.
If this happens, then and only then will we be able to decide in which system we want to continue. Whether it be an Islamic Republic, a socialist republic, a communist republic or any other system of government.
views?
What do you guys think
If a Maulvi Sahib was preaching agaisnt a certain minority in Pakistan then you posed the question should you go up and tell him Mr. Jinnah`s quotes? To be honest, you have solved the problem more or less there. Our people might be wild and might be kinda emotional but they love the father of the nation. Every morning millions of Pakistani students chant songs in rememberenance of the Quaid. So, if one was to question the Maulvi Sahib in a civil manner while he was taking Questions then I honestly think the audience would react in a positive way. We must become into `good human beings with good ethics and morality hence be appealing to the masses``.
You people argue about the military, the mullahs, dictatorship vs democracy in the Pakistan but have you ever thought about why our people do not speak out agaisnt whatever is happening?
The simple answer to this is lack of employment and whereever there is employment its just too pathetic.
Ok! good show! no matter what system of government we have I think two things should be given UTTER MOST attention..
The judicial system of Pakistan and the industralization of Pakistani society must increased ten fold.
we as a country are in desperate need of a middle class. We do not have a middle class. Its either poor poor poor poor or rich rich richer.
As far as the judicial system is concerned we need to fix somes laws and properly implement the rest. To counter corruption, I suggest firing squads. For how long will we deny the urgency of now? Firing squads defianately with the option of repenting at the last moment... the firing squads have worked excellently in China. They will work superbly in Pakistan.
If we fix the judicary, then watch what happens. every thing will straighten it self up.
As far as industralization is concerned, just look at it this way. The average Pakistani is more concerned in making ends meet rather than think about Mullah A B C or fauj 1 2 3 or human rights a b c. He or she simply does not care !
Thus, we need to make policies to encourage industralization. From Spinning factories ( already a major source of employment) to all sorts of industry. We must start!
This way `wealth` will trickle down to a laarger majority of the population.
IF we can raise the living standards and GIVE them what they want then I believe Pakistan will be ripe to decide which way it has to go. But in order for this procedure to take place the judiciary must not only be fixed but must be protected from `germs` for at least 50 good years for this `enlightened Pakistan` to emerge.
If this happens, then and only then will we be able to decide in which system we want to continue. Whether it be an Islamic Republic, a socialist republic, a communist republic or any other system of government.
views?
What do you guys think
#152 Posted by HaroonEllahi on July 15, 2004 9:46:32 pm
I think this debate is very interesting and there are many dimensions to it. However, I have one thing to say concerning post #127 by Mr. Ferozk,
If a Maulvi Sahib was preaching agaisnt a certain minority in Pakistan then you posed the question should you go up and tell him Mr. Jinnah`s quotes? To be honest, you have solved the problem more or less there. Our people might be wild and might be kinda emotional but they love the father of the nation. Every morning millions of Pakistani students chant songs in rememberenance of the Quaid. So, if one was to question the Maulvi Sahib in a civil manner while he was taking Questions then I honestly think the audience would react in a positive way. We must become into `good human beings with good ethics and morality hence be appealing to the masses``.
You people argue about the military, the mullahs, dictatorship vs democracy in the Pakistan but have you ever thought about why our people do not speak out agaisnt whatever is happening?
The simple answer to this is lack of employment and whereever there is employment its just too pathetic.
Ok! good show! no matter what system of government we have I think two things should be given UTTER MOST attention..
The judicial system of Pakistan and the industralization of Pakistani society must increased ten fold.
we as a country are in desperate need of a middle class. We do not have a middle class. Its either poor poor poor poor or rich rich richer.
As far as the judicial system is concerned we need to fix somes laws and properly implement the rest. To counter corruption, I suggest firing squads. For how long will we deny the urgency of now? Firing squads defianately with the option of repenting at the last moment... the firing squads have worked excellently in China. They will work superbly in Pakistan.
If we fix the judicary, then watch what happens. every thing will straighten it self up.
As far as industralization is concerned, just look at it this way. The average Pakistani is more concerned in making ends meet rather than think about Mullah A B C or fauj 1 2 3 or human rights a b c. He or she simply does not care !
Thus, we need to make policies to encourage industralization. From Spinning factories ( already a major source of employment) to all sorts of industry. We must start!
This way `wealth` will trickle down to a laarger majority of the population.
IF we can raise the living standards and GIVE them what they want then I believe Pakistan will be ripe to decide which way it has to go. But in order for this procedure to take place the judiciary must not only be fixed but must be protected from `germs` for at least 50 good years for this `enlightened Pakistan` to emerge.
If this happens, then and only then will we be able to decide in which system we want to continue. Whether it be an Islamic Republic, a socialist republic, a communist republic or any other system of government.
views?
What do you guys think
If a Maulvi Sahib was preaching agaisnt a certain minority in Pakistan then you posed the question should you go up and tell him Mr. Jinnah`s quotes? To be honest, you have solved the problem more or less there. Our people might be wild and might be kinda emotional but they love the father of the nation. Every morning millions of Pakistani students chant songs in rememberenance of the Quaid. So, if one was to question the Maulvi Sahib in a civil manner while he was taking Questions then I honestly think the audience would react in a positive way. We must become into `good human beings with good ethics and morality hence be appealing to the masses``.
You people argue about the military, the mullahs, dictatorship vs democracy in the Pakistan but have you ever thought about why our people do not speak out agaisnt whatever is happening?
The simple answer to this is lack of employment and whereever there is employment its just too pathetic.
Ok! good show! no matter what system of government we have I think two things should be given UTTER MOST attention..
The judicial system of Pakistan and the industralization of Pakistani society must increased ten fold.
we as a country are in desperate need of a middle class. We do not have a middle class. Its either poor poor poor poor or rich rich richer.
As far as the judicial system is concerned we need to fix somes laws and properly implement the rest. To counter corruption, I suggest firing squads. For how long will we deny the urgency of now? Firing squads defianately with the option of repenting at the last moment... the firing squads have worked excellently in China. They will work superbly in Pakistan.
If we fix the judicary, then watch what happens. every thing will straighten it self up.
As far as industralization is concerned, just look at it this way. The average Pakistani is more concerned in making ends meet rather than think about Mullah A B C or fauj 1 2 3 or human rights a b c. He or she simply does not care !
Thus, we need to make policies to encourage industralization. From Spinning factories ( already a major source of employment) to all sorts of industry. We must start!
This way `wealth` will trickle down to a laarger majority of the population.
IF we can raise the living standards and GIVE them what they want then I believe Pakistan will be ripe to decide which way it has to go. But in order for this procedure to take place the judiciary must not only be fixed but must be protected from `germs` for at least 50 good years for this `enlightened Pakistan` to emerge.
If this happens, then and only then will we be able to decide in which system we want to continue. Whether it be an Islamic Republic, a socialist republic, a communist republic or any other system of government.
views?
What do you guys think
#151 Posted by MantoLives on July 15, 2004 9:46:31 pm
Dear Untruly...
Please spare me your conspiracy theories.... Your lies have been exposed by many people on this board... learn a lesson from it...
Take a cue from McCarthy... start niswar or something...
#150 Posted by einsteinwallah on July 15, 2004 8:57:00 pm
[#135 by hellbound on July 15, 2004 9:11am PT -- 00181725
Eisntstien: I dont see any relevance ... what is your point really? ]
You said: in order to be accepted by the adherents of sepcific belief system a religion, cult, or a club, etc etc
I said: ``Pakistani`` identity is defined by a club. A club of deliberately nebulously defined group of pan-Islamic people.
Eisntstien: I dont see any relevance ... what is your point really? ]
You said: in order to be accepted by the adherents of sepcific belief system a religion, cult, or a club, etc etc
I said: ``Pakistani`` identity is defined by a club. A club of deliberately nebulously defined group of pan-Islamic people.
#149 Posted by escapist on July 15, 2004 8:57:00 pm
sattar2
read Quadiyaniyyat
By Ihsan Ilahi Zaheer.
The english translation is also avaialble.
This book is a part of comperetive relegion course in many islamic Universities around the islamic world.
read Quadiyaniyyat
By Ihsan Ilahi Zaheer.
The english translation is also avaialble.
This book is a part of comperetive relegion course in many islamic Universities around the islamic world.
#148 Posted by sattar2 on July 15, 2004 3:57:43 pm
Urstruly (#147), … touching story …
Now, let’s go back to your claim … that Mirza Sahib called his opponents “Kanjariyon ke bachchay” (i.e. Children of prostitutes).
On two separate occasions I asked you to substantiate this claim. You did not respond. I provided explanation to prove you wrong, and still … you did not respond.
You now claim to have had an elaborate discussion on this issue!! Kindly point out where/when. Link?
#147 Posted by Urstruly on July 15, 2004 12:45:53 pm
Mantolives,
McCarthy? Me? I tell you what McCarthy-ism is. The year was probably `95or `96 and I happened to be in Pakistan then. It was NS`s second term and Parliament had just passed the Shariat Bill. In a by-election in Karachi, on the MQM ticket, a Quadiani named Kanwar Idrees got elected for provincial assembly. Soon after his election he was given the post of minister of education in the sindh cabinet. Meanwhile, hundreds of miles away from Karachi somewhere in the North Western part of Punjab, one day, at a mosque I was offering my Friday prayers. The main topic of the sermon that day was the Muslim ideal of Finality of Prophethood of Prophet Mohammad – peace be upon him. At the end of Khutaba, moulvi sahib told the congregation about the election of Kanawar Idrees and his appointment as education minister. The moulvi Sahib then requested his congregation to pass a resolution that they categorically condemn the appointment of a non-Mulsim at such a key post in an Islamic polity. He requested congregation to express their disagreement with government`s decision by unanimous show of hand. The 99.99% of the congregation showed their hand except a tiny minority of .01% and that tiny minority was me. The moulvi sahib looked at me in disbelief with his red-shot surma laden eyes but chose to ignore me. The resolution was thus ``unanimously`` passed.
After the Jumma prayer I was invited at lunch at a friends house along with some other friends. Some of these people were also present at the Friday prayers. When we gathered in the drawing room, the topic of discussion was why I didn`t raise my hand. I was accused that either in United States I had become a Quadiani or somehow I was being influenced with the Quadiani doctrine. No one would let me speak and clarify my position amid their accusations. Mind you that some of these friends had been my friends from the days when we used to play in the streets in our T-shirts alone flaunting our puny boyhoods and with runny noses. Now, I was the same guy, sitting in front of them, but I was being treated as an enemy spy. At last I asked them, whether they would believe me that I am still a believer had I took the oath that I posted in one of my previous posts. They agreed. So I took that oath in almost similar words. But as I suspected, no one believed me even then. I was told that I might have taken a false oath. Even the goddamned oath was not good enough. I was bluntly told that they would only believe me if I sent curses upon Mirza Sahib in very explicit words. Which I did.
But that wasn`t enough either. I was then accused of having an affair with my Dushman-e-deen-o-Eman, Qattala-e-Alam, Zuhud-shikan, Dushman-e-Dil-o-JaaN (sometimes I feel sorry for English that it is such a yateem language that it has no such words) next door neighborette who happened to be a Quadiani. I admitted that although I was in love with that girl like any other man in the town and several times, in my prayers, I had knelt before God, thanking Him for creating such a beautiful woman and giving me a chance for appreciating her beauty and for making her my neighbor but I did not have an affair with that girl. But no one believed me. I was made to say that I considered her as a sister only - the words that I will regret for the rest of my life. (What a way desi men have invented to eliminate competition).
But that was not enough either. Now they accused me that I had a soft corner for Quadianis because I considered that girl as a sister. Finally, when I threatened them that I would walk out of the lunch they agreed to listen to the reason why I did not raise my hand. I told them that I thought that what moulvi sahib asked his congregation to do was against the sharia and also unconstitutional. I told them that not only Holy prophet (pbuh) himself but also the four righteous Caliphs set an example by appointing non-Mulsims at some of the key posts. Holy Prophet trusted the lives of many Muslims with an infidel of Mecca, who plead for asylum for these Muslims in the Court of King Neiges of Ethiopia on behalf of Holy prophet. I told them that when Prophet and his Caliphs had set an example then who are we to trespass the limits of tolerance set by them. Besides if a non-Muslim pledges his allegiance to the constitution of Pakistan then he is our brother.
The point of this story is to elaborate on the acute sensitivity that Muslims feel towards the issue of Quadianism. So it is only natural to have consequences when Quadianis take a defiant and assaulting stance. Although my friends did let me eat the lunch that day but to this day I am called aadha mirzai in my circle of friends.
#146 Posted by MantoLives on July 15, 2004 11:18:00 am
Ferozk,
The point with regard to Taliban was that they were not secular... if you can use sarcasm (and in doing so distort my argument) so can I ... your claim was (rather ironically quite contradictory to some of your earlier positions on chowk... but thats good ... shows you are atleast thinking) that secular governments are the worse oppressors of minorities... I think when all is said and done... no one beats the taliban... though Nazis (who can`t be described as secular either in my opinion) come close in my opinion... in the honor of being the worst oppressors of minorities... the genocide and the holocaust that went on in Afghanistan for the 6 years of Taliban rule is something that the world is only beginning to discover...
Clearly you missed the point again... My point was that it is the Maulvis who keep declaring unjustifiably that `raison d etre` of Pakistan was Islam... quoting of History wrt Partition period is simply to take the wind out of their claims... you should really be telling them that 1947 has come and gone... instead of preaching it to be people like me who are merely correcting them on certain details... Pakistan like any legal nation state of the world is an accident of History ... and it needs no justification to exist ... nor any clutches of ideology... It should do what is in the Best interest of all its citizens including the religious minorities....
Yaar you know very well why you are doing this.... it is your ego and nothing else... instead of making such random comments like the one you made , no doubt to provoke me as you yourself have admitted that it is your primary purpose here on chowk and we are well aware that none of these Romairisque ideas are your own... all I have to say my dear friend is that... read `Pakistan in the 20th century` by Lawrence Zirring... a Book if I am not mistaken you have yourself chosen for your History class.
-YLH
#145 Posted by MantoLives on July 15, 2004 11:18:00 am
Urstruly...
You are perhaps the only true Mullah version of McCarthy on Chowk...
#144 Posted by Urstruly on July 15, 2004 11:02:52 am
HP
Sometimes when I see the level of intelect at the Indian interactive websites I think that at chowk people are Victorian puritans as compared to them. It is not because Chowk Staff regulates everybody with a danda in their hand all the time but only because the people who interact here wants to keep this website that way. In my four years at Chowk I have probably seen Chowk Staff removing obscene material from threads less than four times. That is the reason i regert Chowk staff`s heavy handedness at Dharma thread. How is one suppose to speak his mind when he is not sure whether he is allowed to speak his mind or not. That has set a bad precedence.
#143 Posted by Urstruly on July 15, 2004 10:38:41 am
Chowk Staff
I think you are being too harsh lately. The social pressure from the fellow interlocutors would have taken care of the problem of obscenities. i dread the day when you will become our Big Brother....shuddering
#142 Posted by sattar2 on July 15, 2004 10:20:18 am
Urstruly,
You are now afraid to discuss your claim that Mirza Sahib called his opponents “Kanjariyon ke bachchay” (i.e. Children of prostitutes).
You refer me to earlier discussion we had. From what I recall, you became silent when I clarified the issue to you. What discussion?
Sahib, simply stated … you make a claim … but fail to substantiate it … and are scared to discuss it. Which means what you write is not worth spitting on.
Nice try … but better luck next time … (you are now behaving like a gutless eunuch ... who can sing and dance ... but cannot ``perform`` - wink, wink, wink ...)
#141 Posted by sattar2 on July 15, 2004 10:20:18 am
Hellbound (#135):
The mullah in you has finally spoken … and now you too are behaving like you own Islam.
So you want to follow Quran and Sunnah. Fair enough. Show me where does Quran say that prophethood has ended?
As for the last sermon of the Prophet(pbuh): True, religion has been completed. Shariah has been fully revealed and will be guarded by Allah Almighty. How does this rule out coming of prophets to bring people back to the Law of God as they go astray? Quran says that prophets appeared to warn and to remind people as they went astray. Where does it say that more prophets cannot appear?
BTW, your attempt to add “(last)” to the kalima was a good one. Nice try … but better luck next time.
Oh, one more thing … Parsis, Christians, etc. do not claim to be Muslims. Ahmadis do. I guess you overlooked this subtle difference …
#140 Posted by malangi on July 15, 2004 10:20:18 am
Amit, you ask:
“Clearly this is a recent phenomenon because before partition Ahmadis must have felt that they were muslims in order to actually fight for Pakistan. So what changed in the past few decades?”
The force of the state was put behind the religious persecution of Ahmadis.
The acts of persecution had always existed, but there was recourse to an impartial state for safety and justice. This was true in the early years of Pakistan (case in point the Munir Report). This is unfortunately no longer true.
BTW, this seems to be the case for all minorities and if the trend continues the Shias are not that far behind.
Regards.
“Clearly this is a recent phenomenon because before partition Ahmadis must have felt that they were muslims in order to actually fight for Pakistan. So what changed in the past few decades?”
The force of the state was put behind the religious persecution of Ahmadis.
The acts of persecution had always existed, but there was recourse to an impartial state for safety and justice. This was true in the early years of Pakistan (case in point the Munir Report). This is unfortunately no longer true.
BTW, this seems to be the case for all minorities and if the trend continues the Shias are not that far behind.
Regards.
#139 Posted by HP on July 15, 2004 10:20:18 am
Sorry for stealing this thread momentarily.
Here is my post on the Dharma thread. I would like All Pakistanis to think about this.
“lurking reptiles and rodents on Chowk,”
Well said a-null #583
Now these reptiles and rodent are free to roam around and abuse every thing Pakistani.
The site’s stated goal is:
“Chowk does not claim to solve the political or social problems of Pakistan and/or India. Rather, it provides a platform for dialogue, introspection, and familiarity amongst the people to break taboos and facilitate a climate for lasting peace and understanding. http://www.chowk.com/show_about.cgi
Can anybody from the chowK staff show a single post out of the umpteenth thousands posted by these rodent and reptiles and roaches(A-null wrote that first-roaches my addition) to promote or even remotely subscribe to this goal? I would like the chowk staff to read post # 583 by A-null where he openly talks about the India and Pakistan rivalry and if this person and his friends the sadist, and the fake pathan, aka the Kerala clowns do not even subscribe to the goals of this site and instead promote the opposite goals than why are they being protected?
If the purpose of this site is to promote “Rivalry between India and Pakistan” than why not make appropriate changes in the site goals?
QUESTIONS FOR CHOWK STAFF
I hope some body from the chowk staff answers these questions:
Is the familiarity between the people increases when some RSS drones put ten posts every day to call all Pakistani Jihadi/Terrorist?
Is the familiarity between the people increases when every third post by this gang of RSS drones-moles-trolls/Kerala clowns refers to Prophet Mohammed marrying a young woman without any context? See nb post#602 -If the Prophet took young wives … (There are more posts should chowk staff needs a complete list.)
Is the familiarity between the people increases when Islam and Muslim are attacked by these “rodent and reptiles” and roaches(A-null wrote that first-roaches my addition) -Sadist, A-null, and the fake Pathan- in every single post?
If the purpose of this site is to promote rivalry between the countries and promote people who do that openly than why hoodwink Pakistanis in to believing that the this site promotes friendship between the two countries.
If the Chowk staff fails to answer my questions then all Pakistanis need to look at the this project that does not need Pakistani membership at all and start thinking about the alternates and some are available and others can be developed- not a problem at all.
What is more important? site`s goal or .....
Here is my post on the Dharma thread. I would like All Pakistanis to think about this.
“lurking reptiles and rodents on Chowk,”
Well said a-null #583
Now these reptiles and rodent are free to roam around and abuse every thing Pakistani.
The site’s stated goal is:
“Chowk does not claim to solve the political or social problems of Pakistan and/or India. Rather, it provides a platform for dialogue, introspection, and familiarity amongst the people to break taboos and facilitate a climate for lasting peace and understanding. http://www.chowk.com/show_about.cgi
Can anybody from the chowK staff show a single post out of the umpteenth thousands posted by these rodent and reptiles and roaches(A-null wrote that first-roaches my addition) to promote or even remotely subscribe to this goal? I would like the chowk staff to read post # 583 by A-null where he openly talks about the India and Pakistan rivalry and if this person and his friends the sadist, and the fake pathan, aka the Kerala clowns do not even subscribe to the goals of this site and instead promote the opposite goals than why are they being protected?
If the purpose of this site is to promote “Rivalry between India and Pakistan” than why not make appropriate changes in the site goals?
QUESTIONS FOR CHOWK STAFF
I hope some body from the chowk staff answers these questions:
Is the familiarity between the people increases when some RSS drones put ten posts every day to call all Pakistani Jihadi/Terrorist?
Is the familiarity between the people increases when every third post by this gang of RSS drones-moles-trolls/Kerala clowns refers to Prophet Mohammed marrying a young woman without any context? See nb post#602 -If the Prophet took young wives … (There are more posts should chowk staff needs a complete list.)
Is the familiarity between the people increases when Islam and Muslim are attacked by these “rodent and reptiles” and roaches(A-null wrote that first-roaches my addition) -Sadist, A-null, and the fake Pathan- in every single post?
If the purpose of this site is to promote rivalry between the countries and promote people who do that openly than why hoodwink Pakistanis in to believing that the this site promotes friendship between the two countries.
If the Chowk staff fails to answer my questions then all Pakistanis need to look at the this project that does not need Pakistani membership at all and start thinking about the alternates and some are available and others can be developed- not a problem at all.
What is more important? site`s goal or .....
#138 Posted by Urstruly on July 15, 2004 9:11:21 am
Sattar
I don`t think that there was need for you to go breserk. As you have said, we did have an elaborate discussion on the Arabic word ``Baghiya`` and all its connotations.
#137 Posted by hellbound on July 15, 2004 9:11:16 am
Sattar and others: My presumptioin is not based on an assumption, why bc, I consider the the last Khutabh by PBUH as final and I am no one to refute that. PBUH clearly stated that our religion (Muslims) is completed today and therefore stating the obvious that there is no room for another prophet as far as `Mulsims` were concerned. Sattar you could belive in Quran all you want, and you could call urself whatever you want to, but the fact remains, that the founder of Islam (rightyly or wrongly) declared this to be end of an beginning...you can quote whoever you want to, but I will only listen to Quran and Sunnab, and nothing short of that...Your friends like YLH are well withing rights to support your cause, since Constitution accepts that, but it does not mean that the majority is bound to accept that...
Eisntstien: I dont see any relevance to this discussion with Muslim League or formation of Pakistan, even if we were to recognize Quadiani vote, it would not have bettered than half a percentage give or take, so what is your point really?
Eisntstien: I dont see any relevance to this discussion with Muslim League or formation of Pakistan, even if we were to recognize Quadiani vote, it would not have bettered than half a percentage give or take, so what is your point really?
#136 Posted by hellbound on July 15, 2004 9:11:16 am
YLH writes:
[Ahmadis have done well for Pakistan ... and I think it is time Pakistan recognizes their services as such.]
Granted Yasser, but so have Pasis (depsite the fact that they have a code of not allowing dogs and muslims in their neck of the woods) so have Christians, Hindus, and Sikhs, do you reckon that all of the above be given a Mulsim status since they have done well for Pakistan, do u really? or just saying it to drive one home?
[Ahmadis have done well for Pakistan ... and I think it is time Pakistan recognizes their services as such.]
Granted Yasser, but so have Pasis (depsite the fact that they have a code of not allowing dogs and muslims in their neck of the woods) so have Christians, Hindus, and Sikhs, do you reckon that all of the above be given a Mulsim status since they have done well for Pakistan, do u really? or just saying it to drive one home?
#135 Posted by sattar2 on July 15, 2004 9:11:16 am
Urstruly Sahib … an afterthought …
Earlier you vehemently claimed that you are not interested in what Ahmadis say and believe.
Now that you think you have found something vulgar in Mirza Sahib’s writings … you are quick to start a debate on what he wrote.
Would you make up your mind? It seems when you realize you are on shaky grounds, you run away. Then you think you have found something against Ahmadis, and you turn around and want to discuss it …
You are behaving like the intellectual equivalent of a confused bisexual … (wink) …
#134 Posted by sattar2 on July 15, 2004 8:33:04 am
Urstruly Shaib is now lying through his teeth. He states that mirza sahib called his opponents ``Kanjariyon ke bachchay i.e. Children of whores …".
This filth exists in Urstruly`s mind ... and not in Mirza Sahib`s writings. Awhile ago I checked this charge ... and found it to be incorrect. Urstruly Sahib has gotten his facts wrong ... once again. Last time he mentioned this, I challenged him to substantiate his claim. He failed to respond.
Here’s the same issue … for Urstruly to substantiate his claim. Furthermore, he should also reveal his source of (mis)information … if he has any decency left in him.
#133 Posted by Urstruly on July 15, 2004 8:09:38 am
Mantolives
Do you now see, after 100 interactions that, the issue of secularization of Pakistan is basically a Quadiani vs. Mulsim issue.
Although it is a tradition set by your prophet mirza sahib to call his opponents ``Kanjariyon ke bachchay`` i.e. ``Children of whores``, yet I request you in the name of decency and good faith not to insult our religious leaders - Ulema-e-Deen, whom you call with such derision and hatered, the Mullahs. Hate begets hate. It might be a temporary outlet for you to exhume the hatered and frustration that is burried inside you but in the bigger scheme of things it will hurt us all in the end. If you cannot end the hate, atleast try not to augment it.
Peace.
#132 Posted by sattar2 on July 15, 2004 8:06:33 am
More comments on this issue …
Urstruly Sahib is now acting like a kid … covering his ears with his hands … shouting “I can’t hear you … I can’t hear you … my mullahs agree Ahmadis are kaffirs … my mullahs agree Ahmadis are kaffirs …”.
He argues that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) should have mentioned coming of future prophets if more prophets were to appear. As a matter of fact, he did! (Do note that Urstruly is staying away from Quran on this one ... I wonder why ...).
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) foretold coming of a future prophet … when he mentioned appearance of Issa-ibne-Marriam among Muslims in later days. He also mentioned … Abu Bakr is the finest among my followers … except those who are raised to prophethood.
Moving on …
It is worth noting that when Ahmadis were declared non-Muslims, sometime around 1974, a theological discussion took place between Ahmadi leadership and government mullahs. Fine and dandy … one would think. Except that … this debate was conducted behind closed doors. The criticism raised by mullahs, and Ahmadi responses … have not been made public yet! Kinda makes one wonder … what is the mullah hiding??
This is the truth of Urstruly’s mullahs … a bunch of cowards … who’d rather cut deals behind closed doors … than be honest and forthright.
#131 Posted by Urstruly on July 15, 2004 7:31:12 am
Rizwan
I made it very clear in the beggining of my post that I have no interest in exploring the Quadiani doctrine (I have already done it to the level of dissection), my only intention was to answer your particular question related to our faith and our law. All those points that you have raised have been answered by Ulema-e-Deen referncing thru Qura`n, Hadith, and Arabic lexicon and usage as well - may Allah bless all of them with best of His rewards for their efforts. If you people do not want to understand it then it is your prerogative. There is no compulsion in our religion - Allah has showed us the right way and the wrong way thru the teachings of his Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). We don`t need anyone to tell us on our face that -God forbids - that our Prophet was wrong or he forgot to tell us one of the most imposrtant instructions that we should also follow the prophets that were going to follow him - God forgive me for saying this. You are free to practice your faith; our faith tells us that it is none of our business to interfere in yours and we expect the same from others. But when you insult our Prophet like that and insult our faith then don`t mind if we respond in kind.
#130 Posted by escapist on July 15, 2004 5:23:24 am
Iblees ka Farmaan apnay Siyasi Farzandoun kay Naam.
By Iqbal. (written in bhopal)
La ker barhumnoun ko siyasat kay beech main
Zunnariyoun ko deer-e-kuhen say Nikaal do!
woh Faqa-Kush kay maut say darta nahee Zara
Rooh-e-Muhammad uss kay badan say Nikaal Do!
Fikr-e-Arab ko day kay Farangi Takhayyelaat
Islaam ko Hijaaz-o-Yemen say Nikaal do!
Afghaniyoun ki ghairat-e-deen ka hai yeh Ilaaj
Mullah ko unn kay kauh-o-daman say Nikaal do
Ahl-e-Haram say un ki rawaayaat cheen lo
Aaahu ko marghazaar-e-khaten say nikaal do
Iqbaal kay nafs say hai laalaay ki aag tez
aisey ghazal siraaa ko chaman say nikaal do!
By Iqbal. (written in bhopal)
La ker barhumnoun ko siyasat kay beech main
Zunnariyoun ko deer-e-kuhen say Nikaal do!
woh Faqa-Kush kay maut say darta nahee Zara
Rooh-e-Muhammad uss kay badan say Nikaal Do!
Fikr-e-Arab ko day kay Farangi Takhayyelaat
Islaam ko Hijaaz-o-Yemen say Nikaal do!
Afghaniyoun ki ghairat-e-deen ka hai yeh Ilaaj
Mullah ko unn kay kauh-o-daman say Nikaal do
Ahl-e-Haram say un ki rawaayaat cheen lo
Aaahu ko marghazaar-e-khaten say nikaal do
Iqbaal kay nafs say hai laalaay ki aag tez
aisey ghazal siraaa ko chaman say nikaal do!
#129 Posted by einsteinwallah on July 15, 2004 5:23:02 am
[#117 by hellbound on July 14, 2004 3:02pm PT -- 00181595
in order to be accepted by the adherents of sepcific belief system a religion, cult, or a club, one has to explicitly or implicitly accept the basis of that belief system, be that a religion, a cult, a club etc. ]
But were not these people part of overall effort of Muslim League to create a brand new nation? Can one not assume that the word ``Muslim`` in the name of Muslim League Party stood for a deliberately nebuluous pan-Islamic identity? Would it not be exactly such identity which allowed Qadianis to be part of it when it was conducting crucial boundry negotiations?
If answer to both is yes then Qadianis are part of ``Muslim`` as is understood by speakers of English language and members of Muslim League but may be it is not inderstood the same way by a serious student of Islam. Why cannot it be accepted that there was an unwritten ``human`` contract when boundries were drawn? And that contract did not include any of the hair splitting and ethnic cleansing and what not that followed. Why cannot it be accepted that one party to such negotiations were British who did not understand the hair splitting that goes on in name of ``defining`` the word ``Muslim``? I bet British probably also assumed that no ethnic cleansing and killing will take place.
in order to be accepted by the adherents of sepcific belief system a religion, cult, or a club, one has to explicitly or implicitly accept the basis of that belief system, be that a religion, a cult, a club etc. ]
But were not these people part of overall effort of Muslim League to create a brand new nation? Can one not assume that the word ``Muslim`` in the name of Muslim League Party stood for a deliberately nebuluous pan-Islamic identity? Would it not be exactly such identity which allowed Qadianis to be part of it when it was conducting crucial boundry negotiations?
If answer to both is yes then Qadianis are part of ``Muslim`` as is understood by speakers of English language and members of Muslim League but may be it is not inderstood the same way by a serious student of Islam. Why cannot it be accepted that there was an unwritten ``human`` contract when boundries were drawn? And that contract did not include any of the hair splitting and ethnic cleansing and what not that followed. Why cannot it be accepted that one party to such negotiations were British who did not understand the hair splitting that goes on in name of ``defining`` the word ``Muslim``? I bet British probably also assumed that no ethnic cleansing and killing will take place.
#128 Posted by nasah on July 15, 2004 5:23:01 am
``And there is neither a mosque, a church, nor a temple in the Paradise``
in those days Iqbal may have wanted to say really is: `` And where there is neither a mosque, a church, a temple, nor a Paradise....
in those days Iqbal may have wanted to say really is: `` And where there is neither a mosque, a church, a temple, nor a Paradise....
#127 Posted by ferozk on July 14, 2004 11:04:46 pm
re:Mantolives # 113
First of all, where did I claim that the Taliban were ``secular`` or in my last post?
It seems that you have a habit to quote people out of context and if are going to quote me, then please quote me correctly and stop making up quotes or implications on my behave. :)
I do not claim the qualification of being an authority on political science and nor do I wish to be an authority on anything as such. You are the one, who has suggested that qualification and it seems that not only are you a judge, but you also act as a jury over another person`s qualifications! lol
Since you have been honest, allow me to be candid with you also. A state cannot always be well ruled by a philosopher-king in the ideals of Plato`s Republic. There is a huge gap between political rhetoric and political reality and on Chowk, we simply engage in political rhetoric, which has no significance in the real world. Pakistan`s problem has always been a dictatorship of the secular-intellectuals, who believe that they know what is best for Pakistan and their opinions are invioable. In this, the mullah is as much worthy of a blame, because he too seems to have ideas about what is good for Pakistan. Statecraft is not a process in theories, but the in the limitations of power and where the state is dysfunctional, principles have to be ignored and this is regretable. Idealism in politics offers a venue for progress and suggests a direction of political evolution, but it does not offer a subsitute for the problems that a state might face.
To seek an idealistic state in Pakistan is a noble thought, but given our retarded levels of political growth, it is at present nothing more than an utopian wish. Pakistan has suffered greatly from the past experiments in basic democracy, or controlled democracy or local bodies grass roots democracy or a populist democracy or a Islamic democracy. A political system of goverance becomes mature after years of trial and error and development of government and goverance should never be considered as creations of political fashion designing to suit the needs of a particular time period.
Even the most farsighted government in Pakistan will not be able to live up to the expections, which many of us cherish and to hope that Pakistan will give same consideration to minority rights as developed world would be attempting to go a bridge too far. The UNCHR was the product of nearly 500 years of European experience in religious wars and political bargaining (and the American experience from European political history), but the more important point was that during that time, the European political system was also developing in tandem with the political realities of Europe. In the begining, neither the French democracy after 1789 or the American democracy after 1776, were havens or the beacons of protected minority rights. It took the British nearly 300 (1400s-1700s) years of political infighting with the monarchs, for power, which turned the British politics into a constitutional monarchy capable of sharing power with the parliament.
In Pakistan, we hope to achieve this sort of result by a flawed version of ``trickle down politics`` and it will fail, because of Pakistan`s lack of political institutions to implement such a proposal. The laws, which protect minorities do not seek their their powers from a constitution as much as they rely on the independence of a judicary, which is bold enough to resist the powers of the executive or even the legislative branch of the government. In Pakistan, and this must be said with regret, all the branches of government support the power of the executive branch, but more importantly they blindly favor the person who happens to be the executive of Pakistan. The cult of personalities in Pakistan`s politics is the one of the biggest impediments in the maturity of the political process in Pakistan.
As a recent editorial in Dawn brilliantly pointed out, it is the lack or the refusal to implement those laws, which prevents Pakistan from enacting the very political safe-guards, which you seek. This revives the old point that laws have to be allowed to evolve, because the laws represent the expressions of a people, within the interests of a state`s power. You and I will disagree on this issue, but I am still of the opinion that the political process in Pakistan must be allowed to proceed unhindered. We as nation will only learn, politically speaking, from our mistakes and just a like a child, who is once burned will not touch the flame again, we have to experience a bitter and dark night in order to appreciate the glory of a new dawn.
As to your other contention, about a tyranny of the majority, Pakistan is presently under a tyranny of the minority and whether it is a majority or minority, it does not lessen the reality of a tyranny. A free and democratic government, in my opinion, which is dysfunctional and mal-intentional is better than a dictatorship or a controlled democratic government, which is efficient and good natured. If on the other hand, we opt to follow the latter half of the previous sentence, then whether there is a secular or a democratic or a theocratic or socialist or any other government in Pakistan will make no difference, because it will still be a dictatorship of the elities by the elities and for the elities.
As to Jinnah, I did not miss any point(s), which you are alluding. Jinnah in my opinion has been dead for a long time and I do not see, how a man who died in 1948 can solve the problems of Pakistan in 2004. Another point being, that the memory of Jinnah will be an inspiration to Pakistanis and Pakistan, but it can never be subsitute or a solution to our problems and that is the reality of my existence in Pakistan. Pakistan will have to solve its problems in 2004 and beyond 2004 by using its own wits and not quoting Jinnah or Iqbal or Ataturk or the Munir Report or UNCHR.
Let me share a few thoughts with you on this subject.
Suppose I am robbed and I go to my SHO and complain of the theft and he refuses to register a FIR against the robbers. What am I supposed to do then? Should I quote Jinnah and remind the SHO that the first duty of state is to maintain law and order? Should I wait for Jinnah to inform me how to recover my stolen property? Or should I conduct a vast research and by reseaching and finding the right quote to my problem, retrive my stolen goods?
Or; suppose I am walking down the street and I pass a masjid and the mullah in that particular case is offering a sermon and inciting the people to go and attack a minority who happens to live near by. What should do to protect that poor person; tell the mullah that Jinnah said that in due time, Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims? Or I should run to my SHO and remind him again of what Jinnah said about the state`s responsibility in maintaining law and order?
Pakistan`s problems will solved by Pakistanis themselves within their own limitations and not by relying on the memory of a dead man and that sir, is a point that always escapes your attention, as usual.
Ciao
First of all, where did I claim that the Taliban were ``secular`` or in my last post?
It seems that you have a habit to quote people out of context and if are going to quote me, then please quote me correctly and stop making up quotes or implications on my behave. :)
I do not claim the qualification of being an authority on political science and nor do I wish to be an authority on anything as such. You are the one, who has suggested that qualification and it seems that not only are you a judge, but you also act as a jury over another person`s qualifications! lol
Since you have been honest, allow me to be candid with you also. A state cannot always be well ruled by a philosopher-king in the ideals of Plato`s Republic. There is a huge gap between political rhetoric and political reality and on Chowk, we simply engage in political rhetoric, which has no significance in the real world. Pakistan`s problem has always been a dictatorship of the secular-intellectuals, who believe that they know what is best for Pakistan and their opinions are invioable. In this, the mullah is as much worthy of a blame, because he too seems to have ideas about what is good for Pakistan. Statecraft is not a process in theories, but the in the limitations of power and where the state is dysfunctional, principles have to be ignored and this is regretable. Idealism in politics offers a venue for progress and suggests a direction of political evolution, but it does not offer a subsitute for the problems that a state might face.
To seek an idealistic state in Pakistan is a noble thought, but given our retarded levels of political growth, it is at present nothing more than an utopian wish. Pakistan has suffered greatly from the past experiments in basic democracy, or controlled democracy or local bodies grass roots democracy or a populist democracy or a Islamic democracy. A political system of goverance becomes mature after years of trial and error and development of government and goverance should never be considered as creations of political fashion designing to suit the needs of a particular time period.
Even the most farsighted government in Pakistan will not be able to live up to the expections, which many of us cherish and to hope that Pakistan will give same consideration to minority rights as developed world would be attempting to go a bridge too far. The UNCHR was the product of nearly 500 years of European experience in religious wars and political bargaining (and the American experience from European political history), but the more important point was that during that time, the European political system was also developing in tandem with the political realities of Europe. In the begining, neither the French democracy after 1789 or the American democracy after 1776, were havens or the beacons of protected minority rights. It took the British nearly 300 (1400s-1700s) years of political infighting with the monarchs, for power, which turned the British politics into a constitutional monarchy capable of sharing power with the parliament.
In Pakistan, we hope to achieve this sort of result by a flawed version of ``trickle down politics`` and it will fail, because of Pakistan`s lack of political institutions to implement such a proposal. The laws, which protect minorities do not seek their their powers from a constitution as much as they rely on the independence of a judicary, which is bold enough to resist the powers of the executive or even the legislative branch of the government. In Pakistan, and this must be said with regret, all the branches of government support the power of the executive branch, but more importantly they blindly favor the person who happens to be the executive of Pakistan. The cult of personalities in Pakistan`s politics is the one of the biggest impediments in the maturity of the political process in Pakistan.
As a recent editorial in Dawn brilliantly pointed out, it is the lack or the refusal to implement those laws, which prevents Pakistan from enacting the very political safe-guards, which you seek. This revives the old point that laws have to be allowed to evolve, because the laws represent the expressions of a people, within the interests of a state`s power. You and I will disagree on this issue, but I am still of the opinion that the political process in Pakistan must be allowed to proceed unhindered. We as nation will only learn, politically speaking, from our mistakes and just a like a child, who is once burned will not touch the flame again, we have to experience a bitter and dark night in order to appreciate the glory of a new dawn.
As to your other contention, about a tyranny of the majority, Pakistan is presently under a tyranny of the minority and whether it is a majority or minority, it does not lessen the reality of a tyranny. A free and democratic government, in my opinion, which is dysfunctional and mal-intentional is better than a dictatorship or a controlled democratic government, which is efficient and good natured. If on the other hand, we opt to follow the latter half of the previous sentence, then whether there is a secular or a democratic or a theocratic or socialist or any other government in Pakistan will make no difference, because it will still be a dictatorship of the elities by the elities and for the elities.
As to Jinnah, I did not miss any point(s), which you are alluding. Jinnah in my opinion has been dead for a long time and I do not see, how a man who died in 1948 can solve the problems of Pakistan in 2004. Another point being, that the memory of Jinnah will be an inspiration to Pakistanis and Pakistan, but it can never be subsitute or a solution to our problems and that is the reality of my existence in Pakistan. Pakistan will have to solve its problems in 2004 and beyond 2004 by using its own wits and not quoting Jinnah or Iqbal or Ataturk or the Munir Report or UNCHR.
Let me share a few thoughts with you on this subject.
Suppose I am robbed and I go to my SHO and complain of the theft and he refuses to register a FIR against the robbers. What am I supposed to do then? Should I quote Jinnah and remind the SHO that the first duty of state is to maintain law and order? Should I wait for Jinnah to inform me how to recover my stolen property? Or should I conduct a vast research and by reseaching and finding the right quote to my problem, retrive my stolen goods?
Or; suppose I am walking down the street and I pass a masjid and the mullah in that particular case is offering a sermon and inciting the people to go and attack a minority who happens to live near by. What should do to protect that poor person; tell the mullah that Jinnah said that in due time, Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims? Or I should run to my SHO and remind him again of what Jinnah said about the state`s responsibility in maintaining law and order?
Pakistan`s problems will solved by Pakistanis themselves within their own limitations and not by relying on the memory of a dead man and that sir, is a point that always escapes your attention, as usual.
Ciao
#126 Posted by MantoLives on July 14, 2004 10:29:58 pm
Amit...
I think it was bound to happen given the intolerance of us Muslims of today... people were trying to get them to be recognized as non-muslims before partition as well... but when such a case was made infront of Jinnah to expel the Ahmadis from the Muslim League he was horrified by repercussions of such a decision... after all he himself was from the Khoja community that was a very small minority within the Muslims considered non-muslim by many in the sunni majority... furthermore some of his ablest lieutenants and brightest minds of the league were from the community... he therefore shot down all such proposals saying that anyone who professes to be a Muslim is a Muslim...
Ahmadis have done well for Pakistan ... and I think it is time Pakistan recognizes their services as such.
-YLH
#125 Posted by nasah on July 14, 2004 9:07:44 pm
``Simple reason is, Mirza Ghalam Ahmad is appointed by God in this time of need and as promissed to Muslims and whole mankind by Hadrat Muhammad (peace be upon him), so how can His followers can leave Muslims and not to present the true face of Quran and Islam to Muslims? Especially when there is a similar noble example; set by Hadrat Muhammad when he gave prayers on recevings rocks from his naiton.
It is the intention of God to show the real peacefull and beautifull face of Islam to all the nations and brigns them under His mercy.``(Riz)
mysterious indeed are the ways `the mind of God` works -- from an Arabian Camel Trader -- to a Punjabi Court Clerk -- good to know that there is another -- True Muslim Mind Reader of God -- who knows exactly as to -- what ``is the intention of God``.....
....well .. presently the conditions in which the Muslim Umma finds itself all over the world indicates -- the ``intention of God`` -- for His own Muslims -- may be anything but .......good
It is the intention of God to show the real peacefull and beautifull face of Islam to all the nations and brigns them under His mercy.``(Riz)
mysterious indeed are the ways `the mind of God` works -- from an Arabian Camel Trader -- to a Punjabi Court Clerk -- good to know that there is another -- True Muslim Mind Reader of God -- who knows exactly as to -- what ``is the intention of God``.....
....well .. presently the conditions in which the Muslim Umma finds itself all over the world indicates -- the ``intention of God`` -- for His own Muslims -- may be anything but .......good
#124 Posted by rafay_alam on July 14, 2004 9:00:31 pm
YLH,
I seem to have entered into the debate a bit late. I`ve read the Munir Report (found it in a second hand store in Defence) and also think it should be compulsory reading for every Pakistani. You`ve forgotten the most moving part of the report, the last few paragraphs, where Munir says all that was needed to avoid the 1954 riots (and the first martial law in the history of Pakistan) were two SHO`s and a DSP. Also, the augaury at the end, which I forget verbatim, but in which Munir says that if this is way Pakistan is heading, the ``Allah help us all.``
For others: The riots of 1954 were the beginning of the Blasphemy laws of Pakistan.
Rafay Alam
I seem to have entered into the debate a bit late. I`ve read the Munir Report (found it in a second hand store in Defence) and also think it should be compulsory reading for every Pakistani. You`ve forgotten the most moving part of the report, the last few paragraphs, where Munir says all that was needed to avoid the 1954 riots (and the first martial law in the history of Pakistan) were two SHO`s and a DSP. Also, the augaury at the end, which I forget verbatim, but in which Munir says that if this is way Pakistan is heading, the ``Allah help us all.``
For others: The riots of 1954 were the beginning of the Blasphemy laws of Pakistan.
Rafay Alam
#123 Posted by sattar2 on July 14, 2004 6:21:21 pm
Raw Dust (#119)
… right on … right on ... precisely ... precisely ...
Faith cannot be treated as “intellectual property” where users pay royalty to the owner. Similarly, Quran cannot be copyrighted, and the term “Muslim” or “Islam” cannot be trademarked.
The Council of smelly ullema … or whoever the hell they are … do not own Islam. And this is the simple point that seems to have escaped some …
#122 Posted by Rizwan on July 14, 2004 6:21:21 pm
Alright Urstruly, it is time that you should, get an answer composed in your own logic.
As you said:
But since you have asked a direct question and you are interested to know about our Islamic laws on apostasy, blasphemy, and prolstization etc., therefore, I am pointing you towards an article that I wrote on the subject, titled......
So explain to me what you mean by our Islam and how you got it. Is it through a Government of Pakistan contract or something. Or is it that God has made you his relative.
Why it is so hard for you to understand that God of Islam and Quran and Muhammad is the Powerfull القوى and the Mighty العزيز and that he has not delegated his functions to humans yet. So he has not placed responcibility of Islam on your shoulder or on Mulllah`s shoulders. So drop this notion that you have inherited Islam and it belongs to your personal belonigns. And if you still insist, then bring a برهان < b> as Quran says.
and if you dont do this, then sword of Quranic برهان will swipe your neck and you wont find any refuge from it. This is the time of arguments and pen, and rightfully Jihad of sword is not applicable to this world, as correctly pointed out by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian a hundered years ago.
And urstruly dont forget that as mentioned in my last post, that meaning of اقساط is equity, and you are supposed to behave equiably with non-muslims because God loves those who are equitable, and this is everlasting decree of Allah and Quran, and you and your Mullahs can never change or distort Quran. It does not matter if all of you call a convention and claim that it is unanimous Ijmah of all the Mullahs, because no Ijmah can be made against Quran, and it is Quran which states very clearly ``rult of equity``
So if Muslims can preach to non-Muslims in their lands then Non-Muslims can preach Muslims in their land.
As you said:
But since you have asked a direct question and you are interested to know about our Islamic laws on apostasy, blasphemy, and prolstization etc., therefore, I am pointing you towards an article that I wrote on the subject, titled......
So explain to me what you mean by our Islam and how you got it. Is it through a Government of Pakistan contract or something. Or is it that God has made you his relative.
Why it is so hard for you to understand that God of Islam and Quran and Muhammad is the Powerfull القوى and the Mighty العزيز and that he has not delegated his functions to humans yet. So he has not placed responcibility of Islam on your shoulder or on Mulllah`s shoulders. So drop this notion that you have inherited Islam and it belongs to your personal belonigns. And if you still insist, then bring a برهان < b> as Quran says.
and if you dont do this, then sword of Quranic برهان will swipe your neck and you wont find any refuge from it. This is the time of arguments and pen, and rightfully Jihad of sword is not applicable to this world, as correctly pointed out by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian a hundered years ago.
And urstruly dont forget that as mentioned in my last post, that meaning of اقساط is equity, and you are supposed to behave equiably with non-muslims because God loves those who are equitable, and this is everlasting decree of Allah and Quran, and you and your Mullahs can never change or distort Quran. It does not matter if all of you call a convention and claim that it is unanimous Ijmah of all the Mullahs, because no Ijmah can be made against Quran, and it is Quran which states very clearly ``rult of equity``
#121 Posted by Rizwan on July 14, 2004 6:21:21 pm
Amit in your post # 114, you mentioned that Ahmadies has made a mistake by siding with Pakistan.
Just to make your notion clear, we Ahmadies do not consider it a mistake, and probably you would not be able to grasp this perspetive. And at the time of partiion Ahamdies made this decesion, full aware of pros and cons and what could happen in future.
Simple reason is, Mirza Ghalam Ahmad is appointed by God in this time of need and as promissed to Muslims and whole mankind by Hadrat Muhammad (peace be upon him), so how can His followers can leave Muslims and not to present the true face of Quran and Islam to Muslims? Especially when there is a similar noble example; set by Hadrat Muhammad when he gave prayers on recevings rocks from his naiton.
It is the intention of God to show the real peacefull and beautifull face of Islam to all the nations and brigns them under His mercy.
Just to make your notion clear, we Ahmadies do not consider it a mistake, and probably you would not be able to grasp this perspetive. And at the time of partiion Ahamdies made this decesion, full aware of pros and cons and what could happen in future.
Simple reason is, Mirza Ghalam Ahmad is appointed by God in this time of need and as promissed to Muslims and whole mankind by Hadrat Muhammad (peace be upon him), so how can His followers can leave Muslims and not to present the true face of Quran and Islam to Muslims? Especially when there is a similar noble example; set by Hadrat Muhammad when he gave prayers on recevings rocks from his naiton.
It is the intention of God to show the real peacefull and beautifull face of Islam to all the nations and brigns them under His mercy.
#120 Posted by sattar2 on July 14, 2004 4:50:39 pm
Hellbound,
It is important to keep in mind … that the term Muslim is used in Quran by Allah for the believers. Since I follow Quran, I am well within my rights to consider myself a Muslim. This becomes a problem only when the state tries to force its definition of a Muslim … and goes on to imprison Ahmadis for “behaving like Muslims”.
Here’s some theological nit-picking: Claim that Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet … should be backed up by arguments, and not by mere insistence. You seem to have adopted the latter approach. Do you think it is fair for you to merely insist that Muhammad is the last prophet … and end the sentence with PERIOD …? Whatever happened to the good ol’ fashioned kalima? Several well reputed scholars of Islam have accepted continuation of prophethood. Does this make Shah Waliullah a non-Muslim? We base our position on Quran and ahadith, as well as reasoning. This indeed is Islam! Is it not?
Moving on ...
If one keeps adding to religion … there is no end to it. Islam will continue to degenerate into amalgams of fairytales … and go down the path of every other religion in the history of mankind. Review the fatwas of kuffr that have been issued against each and every sect throughout the history of Islam. Do you really want to go down further this road?
It would be far better and fairer for the state to not force its religious views on its citizens. If Ahmadis consider themselves Muslim, so be it.
#119 Posted by Raw_Dust on July 14, 2004 4:50:39 pm
Re: hellbound - 117
Your argument makes an implicit assumption. Let me make it explicit. You are assuming that a belief system CAN be owned and certified as Authentic by only a Certain group of its adherents.
Very shallow assumption, do you think that eg. roman catholic church is the sole proprietor of Christain Belief System? even the Church might assume such authority it is only self-serving on their part and hysterical for others.
Embedding this assumption was mildly assuming though.
cheers-
Your argument makes an implicit assumption. Let me make it explicit. You are assuming that a belief system CAN be owned and certified as Authentic by only a Certain group of its adherents.
Very shallow assumption, do you think that eg. roman catholic church is the sole proprietor of Christain Belief System? even the Church might assume such authority it is only self-serving on their part and hysterical for others.
Embedding this assumption was mildly assuming though.
cheers-
#118 Posted by sattar2 on July 14, 2004 4:50:39 pm
Hellbound,
Upon reading your post again … I realized that you do abide with the good ol’ fashioned kalima … albeith with an added pair of parenthesis. I guess your kalima is …
There is one GOD and Mohmmmad is His (last) messenger.
Care to elaborate when did this “(last)” become a part of the kalima? Like I said … if you keep adding to religion … there is no end to it. Here’s another form of the kalima … that illustrates the point.
There is One God (and several goddesses …) and Muhammad is His (last) messenger (who may also be worshipped on Mondays, Fridays, and some long weekends)
I hope the point is clear …
#117 Posted by sattar2 on July 14, 2004 3:02:04 pm
Malik99 (#78):
… is a well known fact that Sir Choudhary Zafarullah Khan, the First Foreign Minister, played a critical role in dragging the country into the American-British lap, preventing the non-aligned elements in the Government of Pakistan from shaping a balanced neutral policy for the newly-established country …
Strong rhetoric … that assumes a lot. But unless supported by arguments or decent references, amounts to nothing more than nonsensical ramblings of yet another ignorant mullah. Humbug!!!
#116 Posted by hellbound on July 14, 2004 3:02:04 pm
PagaalInsaan:
Sir I did not miss anything....the point is simple in order to be accepted by the adherents of sepcific belief system a religion, cult, or a club, one has to explicitly or implicitly accept the basis of that belief system, be that a religion, a cult, a club etc.
In order for a person to claim his or her membership in the Mulsim religion, one has to accept that Mohammad was the last prophet of God. Period. No argument there. One can quote and make references to everything that is Muslim but he or she cannot lay claim to be part of Muslim faith unless he or she abides by the basic contract that there is one GOD an Mohmmmad is His (last) messenger. Period
Sattar:
No disagreement about your comments about faith being between the creator and the created, and only Cretor is the best judge.
No disagreement about denying Qadianis their right to worship as they deem fit.
The only disagreement is that Qadianis must learn to live as Qadianis and forfeit their claim to be part of the Muslim belief system ( the stress is on belief system, if you know what I mean)
Manto:
That is not what I meant, read the above!
Cheers
Sir I did not miss anything....the point is simple in order to be accepted by the adherents of sepcific belief system a religion, cult, or a club, one has to explicitly or implicitly accept the basis of that belief system, be that a religion, a cult, a club etc.
In order for a person to claim his or her membership in the Mulsim religion, one has to accept that Mohammad was the last prophet of God. Period. No argument there. One can quote and make references to everything that is Muslim but he or she cannot lay claim to be part of Muslim faith unless he or she abides by the basic contract that there is one GOD an Mohmmmad is His (last) messenger. Period
Sattar:
No disagreement about your comments about faith being between the creator and the created, and only Cretor is the best judge.
No disagreement about denying Qadianis their right to worship as they deem fit.
The only disagreement is that Qadianis must learn to live as Qadianis and forfeit their claim to be part of the Muslim belief system ( the stress is on belief system, if you know what I mean)
Manto:
That is not what I meant, read the above!
Cheers
#115 Posted by amit on July 14, 2004 3:02:03 pm
Re:#113
YLH,
Based on what you have writen about Ahmadis, I feel really sorry for them as a people. Here they were, trying to escape imaginary, future domination by hindus by setting up Pakistan and they end up being worse than third class citizens in their new country. If there had been no Pakistan, Ahmadis would have been a million times better off. As the saying goes, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.
I have never been able to understand why muslims feel so strongly about ahmadis because the similarities are overwhelming while the differences are miniscule. Clearly this is a recent phenomenon because before partition Ahmadis must have felt that they were muslims in order to actually fight for Pakistan. So what changed in the past few decades?
YLH,
Based on what you have writen about Ahmadis, I feel really sorry for them as a people. Here they were, trying to escape imaginary, future domination by hindus by setting up Pakistan and they end up being worse than third class citizens in their new country. If there had been no Pakistan, Ahmadis would have been a million times better off. As the saying goes, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.
I have never been able to understand why muslims feel so strongly about ahmadis because the similarities are overwhelming while the differences are miniscule. Clearly this is a recent phenomenon because before partition Ahmadis must have felt that they were muslims in order to actually fight for Pakistan. So what changed in the past few decades?
#114 Posted by sattar2 on July 14, 2004 3:02:03 pm
Rizwan, … regarding the “Blasphemy Law” article from mullah Urstruly …
I negated Urstruly’s position in the discussion that followed. I pointed out that he had omitted critical Quranic verses … while drawing incorrect conclusions.
He finally resorted to the verdict of his mullahs to support his position. One should note that these are the same mullahs who cannot agree on the definition of “Muslim” … and await a two thousand year old prophet to descend from the sky. Go figure.
In posts #186 and #246 on that board, I summarized some of my arguments … that forced Urstruly Sahib to take the vow of silence on the issue. Following link may help …
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00001344&channel=university%20ave&start=470&end=479&page=48&chapter=5&order=0#186
#113 Posted by MantoLives on July 14, 2004 10:05:16 am
Pagalinsaan...
You are doing a brilliant job exposing Urstruly`s lies...
Keep it up.
ferozk...
There is a big difference between a democracy and a tyranny of the Majority... but then again maybe my Poli sci professors in College were stupid and you are the real authority on this stuff in which case I am sorry and I plead ignorance ... but in my opinion if the Majority decides to legalize the murder of a minority of the same country... by no definition will that be called a democracy...
In any event we are signatory to the United Nations Human Rights Charter... I personally won`t have a problem with a so called theocracy if it fully observes the rules of that charter... but the fact is that no theocracy, especially not the Islamic theocracy of Urstruly`s pipedreams, can ever follow the UNHCR... As for secular governments... yes I am sure the harsh treatment of the Hazaras, Shiites and Hindus under the `SECULAR` Taliban government was horrible. It is fashionable to describe Hitler`s government as secular ... but it really wasn`t...
About Jinnah ... you missed the point again as usual. Every Mullah and his mother in law invokes the `raison d etre` for Pakistan unjustifiably to make a case for a theocracy... Quoting from Jinnah papers and correcting the History is simply as a counter argument to their lie.
Urstruly...
Your arguments don`t even make sense... your logic is unsound... on the one hand you claim that Qadianis are trying to take over Pakistan .. on the other hand you are saying that they wanted the Qadiani town to be in India... And all that is compounded by your lies about Zafrullah Khan... who drafted the Lahore Resolution, was a close associate of Jinnah, and was chosen as the first foreign minister of Pakistan ... getting Pakistan`s case recognized in Kashmir... You argument has no basis or logic or sources.. quite the contrary it goes against the very facts of history... for example the fact that the Ahmadiyya Movement had infact carried out the first geographical survey of Pakistan after getting a signal from Jinnah himself...
Zafrullah Khan himself was selected by Jinnah to plead Pakistan`s case infront of the Radcliffe committee.. he was not a member of the committee as you declare him to be.
Basically you`ve once again proved that you are either deliberately trying to mislead everyone... or you really have very little knowledge ...
Here is an article I quote... I have already checked the sources of the Quotes and I have found this article to be quite balanced... but I know a liar like you will reject it off hand.
http://www.alislam.org/library/links/00000215.html
Pakistan Golden Jubilee Special
Contribution of Ahmadi Muslims in
Making and Consolidation of Pakistan
It is generally known that Mr. Mohammed Ali Jinnah (fondly called as Quaid-e-Azam) single handedly founded Pakistan. While the Indian leaders notably Mahatma Gandhi, Pandit Nehru and a host of Congress leaders spent many years in Jail and launched several civil disobedience Movements, but this thin and slim outstanding lawyer called Jinnah carved out an Independent Islamic state called ``Pakistan`` in seven years from nowhere.
From Lahore Resolution of March 23, 1940 to crucial talks in June 1946, battles were won by this remarkable statesman, Mr. M. A. Jinnah. This astounded the India`s Viceroy Lord Mountbatten. He was amazed at the remarkable skills of this sharp and tactful statesman at negotiations. His determination stronger than the rock of Gibraltar and his unquestionable integrity were the sterling qualities that landed Muslims of India a homeland of their own.
Few known this fact that Mr. M. A. Jinnah had quit the Indian political scene and out of the frustration left Indian politics. He retreated to London (UK) after attending the second Round Table Conference in 1932, where he established his legal practice. It was a great loss to Muslims in India. It provided immense relief to Indian Congress, as their main adversary left the field.
He was persuaded back to India by no other person than Hadhrat Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad, the Head of Ahmadiyya Movement. This divine figure surveyed the Indian political horizon and found no honest and outstanding Muslim figure to lead the Muslims of India, the Muslims who lost their empire in India after five centuries of Moghal rule.
Hadhrat Sahib asked the then Ahmadiyya Missionary in London (UK) Mr. Abdur Raheem Dard to get in touch with Mr. M. A. Jinnah who initially turned down all overtures. It took Mr. Dard three hours face to face talk successfully persuaded him to return to India. Mr. Jinnah was most reluctant, but he eventually changed his mind. The Sunday Times London (April 9, 1933) carried a report of a reception that was held by the Imam of London Mosque, Mr. Dard, where Mr. Jinnah frankly acknowledged the fact that: ``The eloquent persuasion of Imam left me no way of escape.``
Sardar Shaukat Hayat in his book ``The Nation that lost its soul`` mentions the following event: ``One day, I got a message from Quaid-e-Azam saying ``Shaukat, I believe you are going to Batala, which I understand is about five miles from Qadian, please go to Qadian and meet Hadhrat Sahib and request him on my behalf for his blessings and support for Pakistan`s cause. After the meeting (in Batala) I reached Qadian about midnight, I sent a word that I had brought a message from Quaid-e-Azam. Hadhrat Sahib came down immediately and enquired what were Quaid`s wishes. I conveyed his message for prayer and for his support for Pakistan. He said: ``Please convey to the Quaid-e-Azam that we have been praying for his mission from the very beginning. Where the help of his followers is concerned, no Ahmadi will not stand against any Muslim Leaguer.``
The second feat, during that crucial period after elections, was achieved when Sir Zafrullah Khan who prevailed upon Khizar Hayat Khan Tiwana to resign at a time when Mr. Tiwana enjoyed complete confidence of the Punjab Assembly, paving the way for the Muslim League to appear on the horizon.
Hadhrat Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad was watching with dismay the unholy alliance between the Viceroy and the Congress Party, as an Interim Indian Government was formed in 1946 without Muslim participation. Mr. Jinnah threatened to launch a protest movement.
On September 23, 1946, this divine figure arrived in Delhi along with a team of advisors and remained in Delhi at the residence of Sir Zafrullah Khan for three weeks. He held high level discussions with top Indian leaders, Mr. M. A. Jinnah, Mahatma Gandhi, Pandit Nehru, Nawab of Bhopal, Khawja Nazimuddin, Sardar Niashtar and Nawab Chattari. Hadhrat Sahib also wrote a letter to Lord Wavell indicating to him that the Muslim League enjoyed the total support of the Indian Muslims. A day before his departure for Qadian, Lord Wavell invited the Muslim League to join the Interim Cabinet of India. The daily Nawa-i-waqt in its issue of October 14, 1946 quoted Hindu Daily Milap ``This act tantmounts to torpedeoing of the Indian Independence Movement.``
In the crucial stages of delicate negotiations that Mr. Jinnah conducted with the British Government, the ulema led by Ahrars (the Muslim clergy) abetted , instigated and funded by the Indian Congress, opposed Mr. Jinnah at every step. The Indian Congress party had dozens of powerful leaders, they had a powerful machinery and unlimited cash was available to defeat the single handed effort of a lone figure Mr. Jinnah. Despite heavy odds, despite heavy opposition by the Muslims priesthood led by Ahrars, Mr. Jinnah won and won convincingly because he enjoyed the prayers of this divine figure who called him to India. The real tragedy of Pakistan is that this very pack of ulema who opposed the Making of Pakistan overnight became the lovers of Pakistan.
Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan - a devout Ahmadi who did his bai`at at the hand of the Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of Ahmadiyya Movement on September 16, 1907. Sir Zafrullah Khan had been a judge of the Indian Federal Court as well as the President of Indian Muslim League (1931) and had a judicial mind, he was asked to look at the draft of the Lahore Resolution (March 23, 1940) and he did do the fine tuning of the LAHORE RESOLUTION, the language and the constitutional complexity of the resolution.
When the partition of India was to take place in 1947, the Lord Mountbatten set up a Boundary Commission to determine the new boundaries of two independent states of India and Pakistan. This Commission was headed by Sir Radcliffe. The Congress party of India had already ``bought`` Lord Mountbatten by naming him the first Governor General of India. Quaid-e-Azam was fully aware of the great stakes that the Boundary Commission had for Pakistan. The main question was how to divide Punjab into two - one going to India and the other to Pakistan. Mr. Jinnah selected the best legal brain - an Ahmadi - Sir Zafrullah Khan and on one occasion described him as his son. The aggressive and forceful arguments that Sir Zafrullah Khan marshalled in presentation of the case evoked widespread praises.
A week before Pakistan came into being, in a letter dated August 8, 1947 to Sir Zafrullah Khan by the then President of the Punjab Muslim League Mr. Iftikhar Hussain Khan, Nawab of Mamdot wrote: ``Now that the Boundary Commission has concluded its hearings. I wish to express deep sense of gratitude which I and all other Muslims of Punjab feel towards you. Your unremitting toil in collection of material, your brilliant presentation of our case and your profound interpretation of law and history have won universal admiration. In this most critical hour of our history you have rendered an inestimable service to the Millat and created a lasting place in the hearts of all Muslims. We can never forget how willingly you agreed to interrupt your important discussions in London, and to return and fulfil this private mission. The knowledge that your zeal was inspired solely by your love for Islam fill our hearts with pride and gratitude.``
A distinguished Muslim, Maulana Muhammad Ali Jauhar, paid tribute to the work of the Ahmadiyya Movement in fighting for an independent Muslim state in India with these words, ``It will be ungrateful if we do not mention (the Second Khalifa) and his well- disciplined Community who have devoted all their efforts, irrespective of doctrinal differences, towards the welfare of the Muslims. These gentlemen are, on the one hand, taking an active interest in the politics of Muslims and, on the other, energetically engaged in promoting the unity, organisation, trade and preaching among Muslims. The time is not far away when the attitude of this organised sect of Islam will provide guidance for the Muslim nation in general and for those persons in particular who are idly sitting under the domes of Bismillah and making boastful and empty claims of service to Islam``. The Second Khalifa and the Ahmadiyya Movement were also to play an important role in securing fundamental social and political rights for Muslims in Kashmir who were ruled autocratically by a Hindu maharajah.
Soon after August 14, 1947, Pakistan appeared on the international map because of the powerful and forceful representation of Sir Zafrullah Khan in the United Nations. He was the first Foreign Minister of Pakistan. He represented Pakistan on Kashmir dispute in the Security Council in 1948. Sir Zafrullah Khan later became a great fighter of the Arab cause in the United Nations. He fought a powerful fight for the independence of Libya, Somalia, Eritrea, Sudan, Tunis, Morocco, and Indonesia during 1948-54. He was a Vice President of the International Court of the Justice at the Hague during 1958-61. He was a President of the UN General Assembly in 1962. He then became the President of the International Court of the Justice at the Hague in 1970-73.
The contribution of Ahmadis in all walks of life of Pakistan is TOTAL AND COMPLETE, one is simply amazed, how this small community of over four millions accomplished so much and gave their best. A grandson of the founder of the Movement Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Mian Muzaffar Ahmad, generally known as M. M. Ahmad nurtured the dream and vision of his uncle. He became the Finance Minister 1970-71 of Pakistan.
Two Ahmadi brothers, General Akhtar Hussain Malik and General Abdul Ali Malik, gave their best to the defence of Pakistan. There are others, like Brigadier Iftikhar Janjua and scores of others Ahmadi Colonels and majors. This bravery and selfless desire to defend the motherland was not confined to Army alone. In a book, ``Air battle of Pakistan`` commissioned by then Air Marshal Nur Khan, there are references to Ahmadi Pilots. According to Air commodore (later Air Marshal) Abdur Rahim a dangerous Air mission was planned and volunteers were asked and it was clear that it is possible none of the pilots would be able to come back, among dozens of officers only five pilots volunteered and all of them were Ahmadis and all of them returned safely after the mission was accomplished.
-YLH
You are doing a brilliant job exposing Urstruly`s lies...
Keep it up.
ferozk...
There is a big difference between a democracy and a tyranny of the Majority... but then again maybe my Poli sci professors in College were stupid and you are the real authority on this stuff in which case I am sorry and I plead ignorance ... but in my opinion if the Majority decides to legalize the murder of a minority of the same country... by no definition will that be called a democracy...
In any event we are signatory to the United Nations Human Rights Charter... I personally won`t have a problem with a so called theocracy if it fully observes the rules of that charter... but the fact is that no theocracy, especially not the Islamic theocracy of Urstruly`s pipedreams, can ever follow the UNHCR... As for secular governments... yes I am sure the harsh treatment of the Hazaras, Shiites and Hindus under the `SECULAR` Taliban government was horrible. It is fashionable to describe Hitler`s government as secular ... but it really wasn`t...
About Jinnah ... you missed the point again as usual. Every Mullah and his mother in law invokes the `raison d etre` for Pakistan unjustifiably to make a case for a theocracy... Quoting from Jinnah papers and correcting the History is simply as a counter argument to their lie.
Urstruly...
Your arguments don`t even make sense... your logic is unsound... on the one hand you claim that Qadianis are trying to take over Pakistan .. on the other hand you are saying that they wanted the Qadiani town to be in India... And all that is compounded by your lies about Zafrullah Khan... who drafted the Lahore Resolution, was a close associate of Jinnah, and was chosen as the first foreign minister of Pakistan ... getting Pakistan`s case recognized in Kashmir... You argument has no basis or logic or sources.. quite the contrary it goes against the very facts of history... for example the fact that the Ahmadiyya Movement had infact carried out the first geographical survey of Pakistan after getting a signal from Jinnah himself...
Zafrullah Khan himself was selected by Jinnah to plead Pakistan`s case infront of the Radcliffe committee.. he was not a member of the committee as you declare him to be.
Basically you`ve once again proved that you are either deliberately trying to mislead everyone... or you really have very little knowledge ...
Here is an article I quote... I have already checked the sources of the Quotes and I have found this article to be quite balanced... but I know a liar like you will reject it off hand.
http://www.alislam.org/library/links/00000215.html
Pakistan Golden Jubilee Special
Contribution of Ahmadi Muslims in
Making and Consolidation of Pakistan
It is generally known that Mr. Mohammed Ali Jinnah (fondly called as Quaid-e-Azam) single handedly founded Pakistan. While the Indian leaders notably Mahatma Gandhi, Pandit Nehru and a host of Congress leaders spent many years in Jail and launched several civil disobedience Movements, but this thin and slim outstanding lawyer called Jinnah carved out an Independent Islamic state called ``Pakistan`` in seven years from nowhere.
From Lahore Resolution of March 23, 1940 to crucial talks in June 1946, battles were won by this remarkable statesman, Mr. M. A. Jinnah. This astounded the India`s Viceroy Lord Mountbatten. He was amazed at the remarkable skills of this sharp and tactful statesman at negotiations. His determination stronger than the rock of Gibraltar and his unquestionable integrity were the sterling qualities that landed Muslims of India a homeland of their own.
Few known this fact that Mr. M. A. Jinnah had quit the Indian political scene and out of the frustration left Indian politics. He retreated to London (UK) after attending the second Round Table Conference in 1932, where he established his legal practice. It was a great loss to Muslims in India. It provided immense relief to Indian Congress, as their main adversary left the field.
He was persuaded back to India by no other person than Hadhrat Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad, the Head of Ahmadiyya Movement. This divine figure surveyed the Indian political horizon and found no honest and outstanding Muslim figure to lead the Muslims of India, the Muslims who lost their empire in India after five centuries of Moghal rule.
Hadhrat Sahib asked the then Ahmadiyya Missionary in London (UK) Mr. Abdur Raheem Dard to get in touch with Mr. M. A. Jinnah who initially turned down all overtures. It took Mr. Dard three hours face to face talk successfully persuaded him to return to India. Mr. Jinnah was most reluctant, but he eventually changed his mind. The Sunday Times London (April 9, 1933) carried a report of a reception that was held by the Imam of London Mosque, Mr. Dard, where Mr. Jinnah frankly acknowledged the fact that: ``The eloquent persuasion of Imam left me no way of escape.``
Sardar Shaukat Hayat in his book ``The Nation that lost its soul`` mentions the following event: ``One day, I got a message from Quaid-e-Azam saying ``Shaukat, I believe you are going to Batala, which I understand is about five miles from Qadian, please go to Qadian and meet Hadhrat Sahib and request him on my behalf for his blessings and support for Pakistan`s cause. After the meeting (in Batala) I reached Qadian about midnight, I sent a word that I had brought a message from Quaid-e-Azam. Hadhrat Sahib came down immediately and enquired what were Quaid`s wishes. I conveyed his message for prayer and for his support for Pakistan. He said: ``Please convey to the Quaid-e-Azam that we have been praying for his mission from the very beginning. Where the help of his followers is concerned, no Ahmadi will not stand against any Muslim Leaguer.``
The second feat, during that crucial period after elections, was achieved when Sir Zafrullah Khan who prevailed upon Khizar Hayat Khan Tiwana to resign at a time when Mr. Tiwana enjoyed complete confidence of the Punjab Assembly, paving the way for the Muslim League to appear on the horizon.
Hadhrat Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad was watching with dismay the unholy alliance between the Viceroy and the Congress Party, as an Interim Indian Government was formed in 1946 without Muslim participation. Mr. Jinnah threatened to launch a protest movement.
On September 23, 1946, this divine figure arrived in Delhi along with a team of advisors and remained in Delhi at the residence of Sir Zafrullah Khan for three weeks. He held high level discussions with top Indian leaders, Mr. M. A. Jinnah, Mahatma Gandhi, Pandit Nehru, Nawab of Bhopal, Khawja Nazimuddin, Sardar Niashtar and Nawab Chattari. Hadhrat Sahib also wrote a letter to Lord Wavell indicating to him that the Muslim League enjoyed the total support of the Indian Muslims. A day before his departure for Qadian, Lord Wavell invited the Muslim League to join the Interim Cabinet of India. The daily Nawa-i-waqt in its issue of October 14, 1946 quoted Hindu Daily Milap ``This act tantmounts to torpedeoing of the Indian Independence Movement.``
In the crucial stages of delicate negotiations that Mr. Jinnah conducted with the British Government, the ulema led by Ahrars (the Muslim clergy) abetted , instigated and funded by the Indian Congress, opposed Mr. Jinnah at every step. The Indian Congress party had dozens of powerful leaders, they had a powerful machinery and unlimited cash was available to defeat the single handed effort of a lone figure Mr. Jinnah. Despite heavy odds, despite heavy opposition by the Muslims priesthood led by Ahrars, Mr. Jinnah won and won convincingly because he enjoyed the prayers of this divine figure who called him to India. The real tragedy of Pakistan is that this very pack of ulema who opposed the Making of Pakistan overnight became the lovers of Pakistan.
Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan - a devout Ahmadi who did his bai`at at the hand of the Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of Ahmadiyya Movement on September 16, 1907. Sir Zafrullah Khan had been a judge of the Indian Federal Court as well as the President of Indian Muslim League (1931) and had a judicial mind, he was asked to look at the draft of the Lahore Resolution (March 23, 1940) and he did do the fine tuning of the LAHORE RESOLUTION, the language and the constitutional complexity of the resolution.
When the partition of India was to take place in 1947, the Lord Mountbatten set up a Boundary Commission to determine the new boundaries of two independent states of India and Pakistan. This Commission was headed by Sir Radcliffe. The Congress party of India had already ``bought`` Lord Mountbatten by naming him the first Governor General of India. Quaid-e-Azam was fully aware of the great stakes that the Boundary Commission had for Pakistan. The main question was how to divide Punjab into two - one going to India and the other to Pakistan. Mr. Jinnah selected the best legal brain - an Ahmadi - Sir Zafrullah Khan and on one occasion described him as his son. The aggressive and forceful arguments that Sir Zafrullah Khan marshalled in presentation of the case evoked widespread praises.
A week before Pakistan came into being, in a letter dated August 8, 1947 to Sir Zafrullah Khan by the then President of the Punjab Muslim League Mr. Iftikhar Hussain Khan, Nawab of Mamdot wrote: ``Now that the Boundary Commission has concluded its hearings. I wish to express deep sense of gratitude which I and all other Muslims of Punjab feel towards you. Your unremitting toil in collection of material, your brilliant presentation of our case and your profound interpretation of law and history have won universal admiration. In this most critical hour of our history you have rendered an inestimable service to the Millat and created a lasting place in the hearts of all Muslims. We can never forget how willingly you agreed to interrupt your important discussions in London, and to return and fulfil this private mission. The knowledge that your zeal was inspired solely by your love for Islam fill our hearts with pride and gratitude.``
A distinguished Muslim, Maulana Muhammad Ali Jauhar, paid tribute to the work of the Ahmadiyya Movement in fighting for an independent Muslim state in India with these words, ``It will be ungrateful if we do not mention (the Second Khalifa) and his well- disciplined Community who have devoted all their efforts, irrespective of doctrinal differences, towards the welfare of the Muslims. These gentlemen are, on the one hand, taking an active interest in the politics of Muslims and, on the other, energetically engaged in promoting the unity, organisation, trade and preaching among Muslims. The time is not far away when the attitude of this organised sect of Islam will provide guidance for the Muslim nation in general and for those persons in particular who are idly sitting under the domes of Bismillah and making boastful and empty claims of service to Islam``. The Second Khalifa and the Ahmadiyya Movement were also to play an important role in securing fundamental social and political rights for Muslims in Kashmir who were ruled autocratically by a Hindu maharajah.
Soon after August 14, 1947, Pakistan appeared on the international map because of the powerful and forceful representation of Sir Zafrullah Khan in the United Nations. He was the first Foreign Minister of Pakistan. He represented Pakistan on Kashmir dispute in the Security Council in 1948. Sir Zafrullah Khan later became a great fighter of the Arab cause in the United Nations. He fought a powerful fight for the independence of Libya, Somalia, Eritrea, Sudan, Tunis, Morocco, and Indonesia during 1948-54. He was a Vice President of the International Court of the Justice at the Hague during 1958-61. He was a President of the UN General Assembly in 1962. He then became the President of the International Court of the Justice at the Hague in 1970-73.
The contribution of Ahmadis in all walks of life of Pakistan is TOTAL AND COMPLETE, one is simply amazed, how this small community of over four millions accomplished so much and gave their best. A grandson of the founder of the Movement Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Mian Muzaffar Ahmad, generally known as M. M. Ahmad nurtured the dream and vision of his uncle. He became the Finance Minister 1970-71 of Pakistan.
Two Ahmadi brothers, General Akhtar Hussain Malik and General Abdul Ali Malik, gave their best to the defence of Pakistan. There are others, like Brigadier Iftikhar Janjua and scores of others Ahmadi Colonels and majors. This bravery and selfless desire to defend the motherland was not confined to Army alone. In a book, ``Air battle of Pakistan`` commissioned by then Air Marshal Nur Khan, there are references to Ahmadi Pilots. According to Air commodore (later Air Marshal) Abdur Rahim a dangerous Air mission was planned and volunteers were asked and it was clear that it is possible none of the pilots would be able to come back, among dozens of officers only five pilots volunteered and all of them were Ahmadis and all of them returned safely after the mission was accomplished.
-YLH
#112 Posted by Urstruly on July 14, 2004 7:52:41 am
rsridhar
I had a detailed discussion on this topic (this link) with HP sometimes ago. It is your great loss that you missed it but nothing is totally lost, you can still go thru the archives and see how the debate went.
#111 Posted by rsridhar on July 14, 2004 7:45:37 am
re:#108 by Urstruly
You seem to have glossed over my post and conveniently chosen what u liked of it.
I hope u will read at least this article that is from The Atlantic Monthly. It talks about Holy Qoran and asks some uncomfortable questions: Is the Qoran that is read by muslims today the Original Qoran?
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jan/koran.htm
``Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam`s first two centuries -- they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What`s more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God.``
``To date just two scholars have been granted extensive access to the Yemeni fragments: Puin and his colleague H.-C. Graf von Bothmer, an Islamic-art historian also based at Saarland University.``
These ``Yemenese fragments`` are being studied by these 2 experts and results are not out yet. You can expect some commotion in the muslim world when the results do come out.
Historically, it is unlikely that Qoran as it is read by muslims today is exactly the same as it existed when it was revealed to the Prophet.
You seem to have glossed over my post and conveniently chosen what u liked of it.
I hope u will read at least this article that is from The Atlantic Monthly. It talks about Holy Qoran and asks some uncomfortable questions: Is the Qoran that is read by muslims today the Original Qoran?
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jan/koran.htm
``Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam`s first two centuries -- they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What`s more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God.``
``To date just two scholars have been granted extensive access to the Yemeni fragments: Puin and his colleague H.-C. Graf von Bothmer, an Islamic-art historian also based at Saarland University.``
These ``Yemenese fragments`` are being studied by these 2 experts and results are not out yet. You can expect some commotion in the muslim world when the results do come out.
Historically, it is unlikely that Qoran as it is read by muslims today is exactly the same as it existed when it was revealed to the Prophet.