The Mullah and the Munir Report

Pagalinsaan...

You are doing a brilliant job exposing Urstruly`s lies...

Keep it up.


ferozk...

There is a big difference between a democracy and a tyranny of the Majority... but then again maybe my Poli sci professors in College were stupid and you are the real authority on this stuff in which case I am sorry and I plead ignorance ... but in my opinion if the Majority decides to legalize the murder of a minority of the same country... by no definition will that be called a democracy...

In any event we are signatory to the United Nations Human Rights Charter... I personally won`t have a problem with a so called theocracy if it fully observes the rules of that charter... but the fact is that no theocracy, especially not the Islamic theocracy of Urstruly`s pipedreams, can ever follow the UNHCR... As for secular governments... yes I am sure the harsh treatment of the Hazaras, Shiites and Hindus under the `SECULAR` Taliban government was horrible. It is fashionable to describe Hitler`s government as secular ... but it really wasn`t...


About Jinnah ... you missed the point again as usual. Every Mullah and his mother in law invokes the `raison d etre` for Pakistan unjustifiably to make a case for a theocracy... Quoting from Jinnah papers and correcting the History is simply as a counter argument to their lie.



Urstruly...

Your arguments don`t even make sense... your logic is unsound... on the one hand you claim that Qadianis are trying to take over Pakistan .. on the other hand you are saying that they wanted the Qadiani town to be in India... And all that is compounded by your lies about Zafrullah Khan... who drafted the Lahore Resolution, was a close associate of Jinnah, and was chosen as the first foreign minister of Pakistan ... getting Pakistan`s case recognized in Kashmir... You argument has no basis or logic or sources.. quite the contrary it goes against the very facts of history... for example the fact that the Ahmadiyya Movement had infact carried out the first geographical survey of Pakistan after getting a signal from Jinnah himself...

Zafrullah Khan himself was selected by Jinnah to plead Pakistan`s case infront of the Radcliffe committee.. he was not a member of the committee as you declare him to be.


Basically you`ve once again proved that you are either deliberately trying to mislead everyone... or you really have very little knowledge ...


Here is an article I quote... I have already checked the sources of the Quotes and I have found this article to be quite balanced... but I know a liar like you will reject it off hand.


http://www.alislam.org/library/links/00000215.html


Pakistan Golden Jubilee Special

Contribution of Ahmadi Muslims in
Making and Consolidation of Pakistan
It is generally known that Mr. Mohammed Ali Jinnah (fondly called as Quaid-e-Azam) single handedly founded Pakistan. While the Indian leaders notably Mahatma Gandhi, Pandit Nehru and a host of Congress leaders spent many years in Jail and launched several civil disobedience Movements, but this thin and slim outstanding lawyer called Jinnah carved out an Independent Islamic state called ``Pakistan`` in seven years from nowhere.

From Lahore Resolution of March 23, 1940 to crucial talks in June 1946, battles were won by this remarkable statesman, Mr. M. A. Jinnah. This astounded the India`s Viceroy Lord Mountbatten. He was amazed at the remarkable skills of this sharp and tactful statesman at negotiations. His determination stronger than the rock of Gibraltar and his unquestionable integrity were the sterling qualities that landed Muslims of India a homeland of their own.

Few known this fact that Mr. M. A. Jinnah had quit the Indian political scene and out of the frustration left Indian politics. He retreated to London (UK) after attending the second Round Table Conference in 1932, where he established his legal practice. It was a great loss to Muslims in India. It provided immense relief to Indian Congress, as their main adversary left the field.

He was persuaded back to India by no other person than Hadhrat Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad, the Head of Ahmadiyya Movement. This divine figure surveyed the Indian political horizon and found no honest and outstanding Muslim figure to lead the Muslims of India, the Muslims who lost their empire in India after five centuries of Moghal rule.

Hadhrat Sahib asked the then Ahmadiyya Missionary in London (UK) Mr. Abdur Raheem Dard to get in touch with Mr. M. A. Jinnah who initially turned down all overtures. It took Mr. Dard three hours face to face talk successfully persuaded him to return to India. Mr. Jinnah was most reluctant, but he eventually changed his mind. The Sunday Times London (April 9, 1933) carried a report of a reception that was held by the Imam of London Mosque, Mr. Dard, where Mr. Jinnah frankly acknowledged the fact that: ``The eloquent persuasion of Imam left me no way of escape.``

Sardar Shaukat Hayat in his book ``The Nation that lost its soul`` mentions the following event: ``One day, I got a message from Quaid-e-Azam saying ``Shaukat, I believe you are going to Batala, which I understand is about five miles from Qadian, please go to Qadian and meet Hadhrat Sahib and request him on my behalf for his blessings and support for Pakistan`s cause. After the meeting (in Batala) I reached Qadian about midnight, I sent a word that I had brought a message from Quaid-e-Azam. Hadhrat Sahib came down immediately and enquired what were Quaid`s wishes. I conveyed his message for prayer and for his support for Pakistan. He said: ``Please convey to the Quaid-e-Azam that we have been praying for his mission from the very beginning. Where the help of his followers is concerned, no Ahmadi will not stand against any Muslim Leaguer.``

The second feat, during that crucial period after elections, was achieved when Sir Zafrullah Khan who prevailed upon Khizar Hayat Khan Tiwana to resign at a time when Mr. Tiwana enjoyed complete confidence of the Punjab Assembly, paving the way for the Muslim League to appear on the horizon.

Hadhrat Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad was watching with dismay the unholy alliance between the Viceroy and the Congress Party, as an Interim Indian Government was formed in 1946 without Muslim participation. Mr. Jinnah threatened to launch a protest movement.

On September 23, 1946, this divine figure arrived in Delhi along with a team of advisors and remained in Delhi at the residence of Sir Zafrullah Khan for three weeks. He held high level discussions with top Indian leaders, Mr. M. A. Jinnah, Mahatma Gandhi, Pandit Nehru, Nawab of Bhopal, Khawja Nazimuddin, Sardar Niashtar and Nawab Chattari. Hadhrat Sahib also wrote a letter to Lord Wavell indicating to him that the Muslim League enjoyed the total support of the Indian Muslims. A day before his departure for Qadian, Lord Wavell invited the Muslim League to join the Interim Cabinet of India. The daily Nawa-i-waqt in its issue of October 14, 1946 quoted Hindu Daily Milap ``This act tantmounts to torpedeoing of the Indian Independence Movement.``

In the crucial stages of delicate negotiations that Mr. Jinnah conducted with the British Government, the ulema led by Ahrars (the Muslim clergy) abetted , instigated and funded by the Indian Congress, opposed Mr. Jinnah at every step. The Indian Congress party had dozens of powerful leaders, they had a powerful machinery and unlimited cash was available to defeat the single handed effort of a lone figure Mr. Jinnah. Despite heavy odds, despite heavy opposition by the Muslims priesthood led by Ahrars, Mr. Jinnah won and won convincingly because he enjoyed the prayers of this divine figure who called him to India. The real tragedy of Pakistan is that this very pack of ulema who opposed the Making of Pakistan overnight became the lovers of Pakistan.

Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan - a devout Ahmadi who did his bai`at at the hand of the Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of Ahmadiyya Movement on September 16, 1907. Sir Zafrullah Khan had been a judge of the Indian Federal Court as well as the President of Indian Muslim League (1931) and had a judicial mind, he was asked to look at the draft of the Lahore Resolution (March 23, 1940) and he did do the fine tuning of the LAHORE RESOLUTION, the language and the constitutional complexity of the resolution.

When the partition of India was to take place in 1947, the Lord Mountbatten set up a Boundary Commission to determine the new boundaries of two independent states of India and Pakistan. This Commission was headed by Sir Radcliffe. The Congress party of India had already ``bought`` Lord Mountbatten by naming him the first Governor General of India. Quaid-e-Azam was fully aware of the great stakes that the Boundary Commission had for Pakistan. The main question was how to divide Punjab into two - one going to India and the other to Pakistan. Mr. Jinnah selected the best legal brain - an Ahmadi - Sir Zafrullah Khan and on one occasion described him as his son. The aggressive and forceful arguments that Sir Zafrullah Khan marshalled in presentation of the case evoked widespread praises.

A week before Pakistan came into being, in a letter dated August 8, 1947 to Sir Zafrullah Khan by the then President of the Punjab Muslim League Mr. Iftikhar Hussain Khan, Nawab of Mamdot wrote: ``Now that the Boundary Commission has concluded its hearings. I wish to express deep sense of gratitude which I and all other Muslims of Punjab feel towards you. Your unremitting toil in collection of material, your brilliant presentation of our case and your profound interpretation of law and history have won universal admiration. In this most critical hour of our history you have rendered an inestimable service to the Millat and created a lasting place in the hearts of all Muslims. We can never forget how willingly you agreed to interrupt your important discussions in London, and to return and fulfil this private mission. The knowledge that your zeal was inspired solely by your love for Islam fill our hearts with pride and gratitude.``

A distinguished Muslim, Maulana Muhammad Ali Jauhar, paid tribute to the work of the Ahmadiyya Movement in fighting for an independent Muslim state in India with these words, ``It will be ungrateful if we do not mention (the Second Khalifa) and his well- disciplined Community who have devoted all their efforts, irrespective of doctrinal differences, towards the welfare of the Muslims. These gentlemen are, on the one hand, taking an active interest in the politics of Muslims and, on the other, energetically engaged in promoting the unity, organisation, trade and preaching among Muslims. The time is not far away when the attitude of this organised sect of Islam will provide guidance for the Muslim nation in general and for those persons in particular who are idly sitting under the domes of Bismillah and making boastful and empty claims of service to Islam``. The Second Khalifa and the Ahmadiyya Movement were also to play an important role in securing fundamental social and political rights for Muslims in Kashmir who were ruled autocratically by a Hindu maharajah.

Soon after August 14, 1947, Pakistan appeared on the international map because of the powerful and forceful representation of Sir Zafrullah Khan in the United Nations. He was the first Foreign Minister of Pakistan. He represented Pakistan on Kashmir dispute in the Security Council in 1948. Sir Zafrullah Khan later became a great fighter of the Arab cause in the United Nations. He fought a powerful fight for the independence of Libya, Somalia, Eritrea, Sudan, Tunis, Morocco, and Indonesia during 1948-54. He was a Vice President of the International Court of the Justice at the Hague during 1958-61. He was a President of the UN General Assembly in 1962. He then became the President of the International Court of the Justice at the Hague in 1970-73.

The contribution of Ahmadis in all walks of life of Pakistan is TOTAL AND COMPLETE, one is simply amazed, how this small community of over four millions accomplished so much and gave their best. A grandson of the founder of the Movement Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Mian Muzaffar Ahmad, generally known as M. M. Ahmad nurtured the dream and vision of his uncle. He became the Finance Minister 1970-71 of Pakistan.

Two Ahmadi brothers, General Akhtar Hussain Malik and General Abdul Ali Malik, gave their best to the defence of Pakistan. There are others, like Brigadier Iftikhar Janjua and scores of others Ahmadi Colonels and majors. This bravery and selfless desire to defend the motherland was not confined to Army alone. In a book, ``Air battle of Pakistan`` commissioned by then Air Marshal Nur Khan, there are references to Ahmadi Pilots. According to Air commodore (later Air Marshal) Abdur Rahim a dangerous Air mission was planned and volunteers were asked and it was clear that it is possible none of the pilots would be able to come back, among dozens of officers only five pilots volunteered and all of them were Ahmadis and all of them returned safely after the mission was accomplished.


-YLH

Rizwan, … regarding the “Blasphemy Law” article from mullah Urstruly …

I negated Urstruly’s position in the discussion that followed. I pointed out that he had omitted critical Quranic verses … while drawing incorrect conclusions.

He finally resorted to the verdict of his mullahs to support his position. One should note that these are the same mullahs who cannot agree on the definition of “Muslim” … and await a two thousand year old prophet to descend from the sky. Go figure.

In posts #186 and #246 on that board, I summarized some of my arguments … that forced Urstruly Sahib to take the vow of silence on the issue. Following link may help …

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00001344&channel=university%20ave&start=470&end=479&page=48&chapter=5&order=0#186

Re:#113
YLH,
Based on what you have writen about Ahmadis, I feel really sorry for them as a people. Here they were, trying to escape imaginary, future domination by hindus by setting up Pakistan and they end up being worse than third class citizens in their new country. If there had been no Pakistan, Ahmadis would have been a million times better off. As the saying goes, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.
I have never been able to understand why muslims feel so strongly about ahmadis because the similarities are overwhelming while the differences are miniscule. Clearly this is a recent phenomenon because before partition Ahmadis must have felt that they were muslims in order to actually fight for Pakistan. So what changed in the past few decades?

PagaalInsaan:

Sir I did not miss anything....the point is simple in order to be accepted by the adherents of sepcific belief system a religion, cult, or a club, one has to explicitly or implicitly accept the basis of that belief system, be that a religion, a cult, a club etc.

In order for a person to claim his or her membership in the Mulsim religion, one has to accept that Mohammad was the last prophet of God. Period. No argument there. One can quote and make references to everything that is Muslim but he or she cannot lay claim to be part of Muslim faith unless he or she abides by the basic contract that there is one GOD an Mohmmmad is His (last) messenger. Period

Sattar:

No disagreement about your comments about faith being between the creator and the created, and only Cretor is the best judge.

No disagreement about denying Qadianis their right to worship as they deem fit.

The only disagreement is that Qadianis must learn to live as Qadianis and forfeit their claim to be part of the Muslim belief system ( the stress is on belief system, if you know what I mean)

Manto:

That is not what I meant, read the above!

Cheers

Malik99 (#78):

… is a well known fact that Sir Choudhary Zafarullah Khan, the First Foreign Minister, played a critical role in dragging the country into the American-British lap, preventing the non-aligned elements in the Government of Pakistan from shaping a balanced neutral policy for the newly-established country …


Strong rhetoric … that assumes a lot. But unless supported by arguments or decent references, amounts to nothing more than nonsensical ramblings of yet another ignorant mullah. Humbug!!!

Hellbound,

Upon reading your post again … I realized that you do abide with the good ol’ fashioned kalima … albeith with an added pair of parenthesis. I guess your kalima is …

There is one GOD and Mohmmmad is His (last) messenger.

Care to elaborate when did this “(last)” become a part of the kalima? Like I said … if you keep adding to religion … there is no end to it. Here’s another form of the kalima … that illustrates the point.

There is One God (and several goddesses …) and Muhammad is His (last) messenger (who may also be worshipped on Mondays, Fridays, and some long weekends)

I hope the point is clear …

Re: hellbound - 117
Your argument makes an implicit assumption. Let me make it explicit. You are assuming that a belief system CAN be owned and certified as Authentic by only a Certain group of its adherents.
Very shallow assumption, do you think that eg. roman catholic church is the sole proprietor of Christain Belief System? even the Church might assume such authority it is only self-serving on their part and hysterical for others.
Embedding this assumption was mildly assuming though.


cheers-

Hellbound,

It is important to keep in mind … that the term Muslim is used in Quran by Allah for the believers. Since I follow Quran, I am well within my rights to consider myself a Muslim. This becomes a problem only when the state tries to force its definition of a Muslim … and goes on to imprison Ahmadis for “behaving like Muslims”.

Here’s some theological nit-picking: Claim that Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet … should be backed up by arguments, and not by mere insistence. You seem to have adopted the latter approach. Do you think it is fair for you to merely insist that Muhammad is the last prophet … and end the sentence with PERIOD …? Whatever happened to the good ol’ fashioned kalima? Several well reputed scholars of Islam have accepted continuation of prophethood. Does this make Shah Waliullah a non-Muslim? We base our position on Quran and ahadith, as well as reasoning. This indeed is Islam! Is it not?

Moving on ...

If one keeps adding to religion … there is no end to it. Islam will continue to degenerate into amalgams of fairytales … and go down the path of every other religion in the history of mankind. Review the fatwas of kuffr that have been issued against each and every sect throughout the history of Islam. Do you really want to go down further this road?

It would be far better and fairer for the state to not force its religious views on its citizens. If Ahmadis consider themselves Muslim, so be it.

Amit in your post # 114, you mentioned that Ahmadies has made a mistake by siding with Pakistan.

Just to make your notion clear, we Ahmadies do not consider it a mistake, and probably you would not be able to grasp this perspetive. And at the time of partiion Ahamdies made this decesion, full aware of pros and cons and what could happen in future.

Simple reason is, Mirza Ghalam Ahmad is appointed by God in this time of need and as promissed to Muslims and whole mankind by Hadrat Muhammad (peace be upon him), so how can His followers can leave Muslims and not to present the true face of Quran and Islam to Muslims? Especially when there is a similar noble example; set by Hadrat Muhammad when he gave prayers on recevings rocks from his naiton.

It is the intention of God to show the real peacefull and beautifull face of Islam to all the nations and brigns them under His mercy.

Alright Urstruly, it is time that you should, get an answer composed in your own logic.

As you said:

---

But since you have asked a direct question and you are interested to know about our Islamic laws on apostasy, blasphemy, and prolstization etc., therefore, I am pointing you towards an article that I wrote on the subject, titled......

---

So explain to me what you mean by our Islam and how you got it. Is it through a Government of Pakistan contract or something. Or is it that God has made you his relative.
Why it is so hard for you to understand that God of Islam and Quran and Muhammad is the Powerfull القوى and the Mighty العزيز and that he has not delegated his functions to humans yet. So he has not placed responcibility of Islam on your shoulder or on Mulllah`s shoulders. So drop this notion that you have inherited Islam and it belongs to your personal belonigns. And if you still insist, then bring a برهان < b> as Quran says.

and if you dont do this, then sword of Quranic برهان will swipe your neck and you wont find any refuge from it. This is the time of arguments and pen, and rightfully Jihad of sword is not applicable to this world, as correctly pointed out by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian a hundered years ago.

And urstruly dont forget that as mentioned in my last post, that meaning of اقساط is equity, and you are supposed to behave equiably with non-muslims because God loves those who are equitable, and this is everlasting decree of Allah and Quran, and you and your Mullahs can never change or distort Quran. It does not matter if all of you call a convention and claim that it is unanimous Ijmah of all the Mullahs, because no Ijmah can be made against Quran, and it is Quran which states very clearly ``rult of equity``

So if Muslims can preach to non-Muslims in their lands then Non-Muslims can preach Muslims in their land.