The Mullah and the Munir Report

Urstruly...

You are perhaps the only true Mullah version of McCarthy on Chowk...

Ferozk,

The point with regard to Taliban was that they were not secular... if you can use sarcasm (and in doing so distort my argument) so can I ... your claim was (rather ironically quite contradictory to some of your earlier positions on chowk... but thats good ... shows you are atleast thinking) that secular governments are the worse oppressors of minorities... I think when all is said and done... no one beats the taliban... though Nazis (who can`t be described as secular either in my opinion) come close in my opinion... in the honor of being the worst oppressors of minorities... the genocide and the holocaust that went on in Afghanistan for the 6 years of Taliban rule is something that the world is only beginning to discover...


Clearly you missed the point again... My point was that it is the Maulvis who keep declaring unjustifiably that `raison d etre` of Pakistan was Islam... quoting of History wrt Partition period is simply to take the wind out of their claims... you should really be telling them that 1947 has come and gone... instead of preaching it to be people like me who are merely correcting them on certain details... Pakistan like any legal nation state of the world is an accident of History ... and it needs no justification to exist ... nor any clutches of ideology... It should do what is in the Best interest of all its citizens including the religious minorities....


Yaar you know very well why you are doing this.... it is your ego and nothing else... instead of making such random comments like the one you made , no doubt to provoke me as you yourself have admitted that it is your primary purpose here on chowk and we are well aware that none of these Romairisque ideas are your own... all I have to say my dear friend is that... read `Pakistan in the 20th century` by Lawrence Zirring... a Book if I am not mistaken you have yourself chosen for your History class.

-YLH

Mantolives,

McCarthy? Me? I tell you what McCarthy-ism is. The year was probably `95or `96 and I happened to be in Pakistan then. It was NS`s second term and Parliament had just passed the Shariat Bill. In a by-election in Karachi, on the MQM ticket, a Quadiani named Kanwar Idrees got elected for provincial assembly. Soon after his election he was given the post of minister of education in the sindh cabinet. Meanwhile, hundreds of miles away from Karachi somewhere in the North Western part of Punjab, one day, at a mosque I was offering my Friday prayers. The main topic of the sermon that day was the Muslim ideal of Finality of Prophethood of Prophet Mohammad – peace be upon him. At the end of Khutaba, moulvi sahib told the congregation about the election of Kanawar Idrees and his appointment as education minister. The moulvi Sahib then requested his congregation to pass a resolution that they categorically condemn the appointment of a non-Mulsim at such a key post in an Islamic polity. He requested congregation to express their disagreement with government`s decision by unanimous show of hand. The 99.99% of the congregation showed their hand except a tiny minority of .01% and that tiny minority was me. The moulvi sahib looked at me in disbelief with his red-shot surma laden eyes but chose to ignore me. The resolution was thus ``unanimously`` passed.

After the Jumma prayer I was invited at lunch at a friends house along with some other friends. Some of these people were also present at the Friday prayers. When we gathered in the drawing room, the topic of discussion was why I didn`t raise my hand. I was accused that either in United States I had become a Quadiani or somehow I was being influenced with the Quadiani doctrine. No one would let me speak and clarify my position amid their accusations. Mind you that some of these friends had been my friends from the days when we used to play in the streets in our T-shirts alone flaunting our puny boyhoods and with runny noses. Now, I was the same guy, sitting in front of them, but I was being treated as an enemy spy. At last I asked them, whether they would believe me that I am still a believer had I took the oath that I posted in one of my previous posts. They agreed. So I took that oath in almost similar words. But as I suspected, no one believed me even then. I was told that I might have taken a false oath. Even the goddamned oath was not good enough. I was bluntly told that they would only believe me if I sent curses upon Mirza Sahib in very explicit words. Which I did.

But that wasn`t enough either. I was then accused of having an affair with my Dushman-e-deen-o-Eman, Qattala-e-Alam, Zuhud-shikan, Dushman-e-Dil-o-JaaN (sometimes I feel sorry for English that it is such a yateem language that it has no such words) next door neighborette who happened to be a Quadiani. I admitted that although I was in love with that girl like any other man in the town and several times, in my prayers, I had knelt before God, thanking Him for creating such a beautiful woman and giving me a chance for appreciating her beauty and for making her my neighbor but I did not have an affair with that girl. But no one believed me. I was made to say that I considered her as a sister only - the words that I will regret for the rest of my life. (What a way desi men have invented to eliminate competition).

But that was not enough either. Now they accused me that I had a soft corner for Quadianis because I considered that girl as a sister. Finally, when I threatened them that I would walk out of the lunch they agreed to listen to the reason why I did not raise my hand. I told them that I thought that what moulvi sahib asked his congregation to do was against the sharia and also unconstitutional. I told them that not only Holy prophet (pbuh) himself but also the four righteous Caliphs set an example by appointing non-Mulsims at some of the key posts. Holy Prophet trusted the lives of many Muslims with an infidel of Mecca, who plead for asylum for these Muslims in the Court of King Neiges of Ethiopia on behalf of Holy prophet. I told them that when Prophet and his Caliphs had set an example then who are we to trespass the limits of tolerance set by them. Besides if a non-Muslim pledges his allegiance to the constitution of Pakistan then he is our brother.

The point of this story is to elaborate on the acute sensitivity that Muslims feel towards the issue of Quadianism. So it is only natural to have consequences when Quadianis take a defiant and assaulting stance. Although my friends did let me eat the lunch that day but to this day I am called aadha mirzai in my circle of friends.

Urstruly (#147), … touching story …

Now, let’s go back to your claim … that Mirza Sahib called his opponents “Kanjariyon ke bachchay” (i.e. Children of prostitutes).

On two separate occasions I asked you to substantiate this claim. You did not respond. I provided explanation to prove you wrong, and still … you did not respond.

You now claim to have had an elaborate discussion on this issue!! Kindly point out where/when. Link?

sattar2

read Quadiyaniyyat

By Ihsan Ilahi Zaheer.
The english translation is also avaialble.

This book is a part of comperetive relegion course in many islamic Universities around the islamic world.

[#135 by hellbound on July 15, 2004 9:11am PT -- 00181725

Eisntstien: I dont see any relevance ... what is your point really? ]

You said: in order to be accepted by the adherents of sepcific belief system a religion, cult, or a club, etc etc

I said: ``Pakistani`` identity is defined by a club. A club of deliberately nebulously defined group of pan-Islamic people.

Dear Untruly...

Please spare me your conspiracy theories.... Your lies have been exposed by many people on this board... learn a lesson from it...

Take a cue from McCarthy... start niswar or something...

I think this debate is very interesting and there are many dimensions to it. However, I have one thing to say concerning post #127 by Mr. Ferozk,

If a Maulvi Sahib was preaching agaisnt a certain minority in Pakistan then you posed the question should you go up and tell him Mr. Jinnah`s quotes? To be honest, you have solved the problem more or less there. Our people might be wild and might be kinda emotional but they love the father of the nation. Every morning millions of Pakistani students chant songs in rememberenance of the Quaid. So, if one was to question the Maulvi Sahib in a civil manner while he was taking Questions then I honestly think the audience would react in a positive way. We must become into `good human beings with good ethics and morality hence be appealing to the masses``.

You people argue about the military, the mullahs, dictatorship vs democracy in the Pakistan but have you ever thought about why our people do not speak out agaisnt whatever is happening?

The simple answer to this is lack of employment and whereever there is employment its just too pathetic.

Ok! good show! no matter what system of government we have I think two things should be given UTTER MOST attention..

The judicial system of Pakistan and the industralization of Pakistani society must increased ten fold.

we as a country are in desperate need of a middle class. We do not have a middle class. Its either poor poor poor poor or rich rich richer.

As far as the judicial system is concerned we need to fix somes laws and properly implement the rest. To counter corruption, I suggest firing squads. For how long will we deny the urgency of now? Firing squads defianately with the option of repenting at the last moment... the firing squads have worked excellently in China. They will work superbly in Pakistan.

If we fix the judicary, then watch what happens. every thing will straighten it self up.

As far as industralization is concerned, just look at it this way. The average Pakistani is more concerned in making ends meet rather than think about Mullah A B C or fauj 1 2 3 or human rights a b c. He or she simply does not care !

Thus, we need to make policies to encourage industralization. From Spinning factories ( already a major source of employment) to all sorts of industry. We must start!

This way `wealth` will trickle down to a laarger majority of the population.

IF we can raise the living standards and GIVE them what they want then I believe Pakistan will be ripe to decide which way it has to go. But in order for this procedure to take place the judiciary must not only be fixed but must be protected from `germs` for at least 50 good years for this `enlightened Pakistan` to emerge.

If this happens, then and only then will we be able to decide in which system we want to continue. Whether it be an Islamic Republic, a socialist republic, a communist republic or any other system of government.

views?
What do you guys think

I think this debate is very interesting and there are many dimensions to it. However, I have one thing to say concerning post #127 by Mr. Ferozk,

If a Maulvi Sahib was preaching agaisnt a certain minority in Pakistan then you posed the question should you go up and tell him Mr. Jinnah`s quotes? To be honest, you have solved the problem more or less there. Our people might be wild and might be kinda emotional but they love the father of the nation. Every morning millions of Pakistani students chant songs in rememberenance of the Quaid. So, if one was to question the Maulvi Sahib in a civil manner while he was taking Questions then I honestly think the audience would react in a positive way. We must become into `good human beings with good ethics and morality hence be appealing to the masses``.

You people argue about the military, the mullahs, dictatorship vs democracy in the Pakistan but have you ever thought about why our people do not speak out agaisnt whatever is happening?

The simple answer to this is lack of employment and whereever there is employment its just too pathetic.

Ok! good show! no matter what system of government we have I think two things should be given UTTER MOST attention..

The judicial system of Pakistan and the industralization of Pakistani society must increased ten fold.

we as a country are in desperate need of a middle class. We do not have a middle class. Its either poor poor poor poor or rich rich richer.

As far as the judicial system is concerned we need to fix somes laws and properly implement the rest. To counter corruption, I suggest firing squads. For how long will we deny the urgency of now? Firing squads defianately with the option of repenting at the last moment... the firing squads have worked excellently in China. They will work superbly in Pakistan.

If we fix the judicary, then watch what happens. every thing will straighten it self up.

As far as industralization is concerned, just look at it this way. The average Pakistani is more concerned in making ends meet rather than think about Mullah A B C or fauj 1 2 3 or human rights a b c. He or she simply does not care !

Thus, we need to make policies to encourage industralization. From Spinning factories ( already a major source of employment) to all sorts of industry. We must start!

This way `wealth` will trickle down to a laarger majority of the population.

IF we can raise the living standards and GIVE them what they want then I believe Pakistan will be ripe to decide which way it has to go. But in order for this procedure to take place the judiciary must not only be fixed but must be protected from `germs` for at least 50 good years for this `enlightened Pakistan` to emerge.

If this happens, then and only then will we be able to decide in which system we want to continue. Whether it be an Islamic Republic, a socialist republic, a communist republic or any other system of government.

views?
What do you guys think

Ferozk...

Meray dost ghussa thook dey app...

Dekhay how brilliant your shagird has turned out :) It is all because you are making change by instilling the idealism that you do in them through your class...

A far cry from the disillusioned realist you try and unjustifiably present yourself on Chowk... I have always been impressed by your idealism... and so have your students...



Haroon elahi..

Your ideas are advanced for your age... I have always been nothing but impressed by what you have to say...

Thanks

Mashriq o Maghrib

Yahaan maraz ka sabab hai ghulami-o-Taqleed
wahaan maraz ka sabab hai Nizaam-e-Jamhoori!
Na mashrqi is say baree hai, na maghrib is say baree
Jahaan main aaam hai qalb-o-nazar ki ranjoori!!


Iqbal.

You know what would be funny, 1 maulvi, 1 cardinal, 1 rabiah, 1 prieft, 1 monk all danncing to that famous song in Texas. the one you sya BULL SHIT on! hahaha. Cuttin my joe or some thing. Lyhme dance or something! its a reeally cool dance! country clubs may hota hai. We just did it at the cruise in the river in New York city! :P
we as in me and my friends. not the religi brigade

Sorry to steal this thread one more time.

QUESTIONS FOR CHOWK STAFF
I hope some body from the chowk staff answers these questions:
(since they have not been answered yet, I am reposting them for chowk staff`s attention)

Is the familiarity between the people increases when some RSS drones put ten posts every day to call all Pakistani Jihadi/Terrorist?

Is the familiarity between the people increases when every third post by them refers to Prophet Mohammed marrying a young woman without any context? See nb post#602 -If the Prophet took young wives … (There are more posts should chowk staff needs a complete list.)

Is the familiarity between the people increases when Islam and Muslim are attacked by them in every single post?

If the purpose of this site is to promote rivalry between the countries and promote people who do that openly than why hoodwink Pakistanis in to believing that this site promotes friendship between the two countries?

If the Chowk staff fails to answer my questions then all Pakistanis need to look at the this project that does not need Pakistani membership at all and start thinking about the alternates and some are available and others can be developed- not a problem at all.

What is more important? site`s goal or .....

re: Mantolives

Congrats! This is what I had been expecting from you for a long time on Chowk and that is not to be baited into a useless agrument! Now that you have learned to laugh at the``Chowk logic``, you will have a much more enjoyable time dealing, with all us jokers in this virtual circus! :)

As to my students, they would be too depressed if I did not act the fool in my classes! Haroon is a very motivated young man and I hope that he does well in his life; at what ever he attempts. I used to be idealistic till I graduated, but once I started working for a living, I realized that the words of that song by Simon & Garfunkle were right: ``...after all the crap I learned in high school (and college), it is a miracle that I can even think...`` ;)

Ciao

I`ve been researching Mullahs and Maulanas for the last few days too, and I want to ask the Muslims on this board who are obviously computer literate to ask their other friends who may not be computer literate, and answer one simple question:-

Why do you ````have to put up with blank-check fatwas from Wahhabi weirdos telling young Muslim girls that it was haraam (religiously forbidden) to attend college and university, thus implying that it was fard (religiously mandatory) for at least 51% of the Muslim community (and 100% of their mothers) to remain uneducated?````

Never mind the Indo-Pak stuff for a while.

And, HP, does asking this question make me a Paki-basher, RSS drone, whatever?

#147 by Urstruly on July 15, 2004 12

this was the best post of the board. urs pen is blessed.
loved the qadiani ``sister`` as the forbidden fruit. (can she be a cousin sister this can solve a bunch dillemas?).

man this khutba thing sounds dangerous. get a bunch of folks together in a religious mood of conformance. just when they are feeling mellow, hit them with a political sermon. how dare any sheep stray from the flock in such an environment?