The Mullah and the Munir Report

YLH:

Let me quotec some verses from Iqbal:

Sher mardon seu hua besha-e-tahqiq tahi
Rah gaiye Sufi-o-Mullah kay ghulam aay Saqi

(The field of intellectual investigation is emptied of the lion-like people
O Saqi, the ones who are out there are the slaves of Sufi and Mullah)

From ``Mullah and Paradise``:

I too was there and couldn`t help but speak
When the Mullah got God`s permission to go to the Paradise
I said, may I be excused, my Lord
He will not enjoy houri, wine, and the edge of the green fields
Paradise is not the place for disputation
And disputation is the nature of this creation of yours
Disparaging the peoples and other societies is his engagement
And there is neither a mosque, a church, nor a temple in the Paradise

Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

Hey there yasser! Don`t let barking dogs get to you! they are a bunch of fools! Most of the enlightened, educated and sane chowkies agree with you. :)

I wonder: Justice Muhammad Munir, is it the same disgusting Munir who introduced “doctrine of necessity” in Pakistan?

Thank you, Yasser. Excellent analysis. If something like this had been written by an Indian (an Indian, not a Hindu only, an Indian, please) then the baying hordes would have been at the doors already.

Your question is:- ``Will we still not learn a lesson?``

My answer is:- ``Yes, Pakistan will. When it stops taking religion so seriously.``

All the best, Yasser. It is a tough job. At the same time, I know one more thing:- the change, when it comes, in Pakistan, will be rapid.

Now what direction that change shall be in, depends?

hamzan...

Doctrine of necessity was introduced till much later under Nusrat Bhutto case...

However Justice Munir had endorsed Ghulam Muhammad`s decision to dismiss the assemblies but that was an interpretation of the Government of India Act 1935... for this Justice Munir was full of regret and he wrote the same in his book `Jinnah to Zia`, which is an excellent book published by Najam Sethi.



Veeresh,

Thanks for your encouragement as always. I am encouraged by your optimism about change... and I am optimistic about direction. Pakistan is an integral part of South Asia ... and there is only so much the extremists can do here....


haroonelahi,

Thankyou... long time no see... where are you?


Freethinker

Thankyou for your support and wishes...

That was a beautiful verse and a poem... once again it proves that Iqbal was never the Islamist that some on chowk want him to be.

-YLH


PS: I am glad that the unwanted elements have stayed away from this board. No point it getting polluted by those who are the victims of narrow thinking.

Although many self-respecting chowkies will stay away from interacting with Mantolives because he has the habbit of attacking other people`s sisters when he runs out of arguments. But since he has posted these lies, he must not go unchallenged.

- In 1953, Maududi was sentenced to death by the martial law authorities on the charge of writing a pamphlet on the Qadyanis. His freedom of speech was usurped by the undemocratic entities. Of course, Qadiyanis, just like they sided with British before 1947 in oppressing Muslims, once again rejoiced. For the record, Maududi resolutely turned down the opportunity to file a petition for mercy.

- Qadiyanis themselves broke relations with Muslims in accordance with their teachings. They organized themselves independently, as if they were a non-Muslim minority as affirmed by their own writings. Their founder, Mirza Ghulam Ahmed had openly declared to British that he had a list of `insurgent Muslims` who were causing trouble for the British rule. He promised British that he would provide such list, if the need arose. Given this, Maududi advocated that Qadiyanis be recognized as a minority and be given seats in the parliament and protected like other minorities.

Here are some of the writings of Qadiyani leaders advocating separation from Muslims:

--``The promised Christ made it clear that Ahmadis should not be led in prayer by a Muslim. Many letters come questioning this matter. My answer to them all is that no matter how many times you repeat the question, I will answer that it is not right, not right, not right to be led in prayer by a non-Ahmadiyan``. (Anwar Khilafat by Mirza Bashir Mahmud pp. 89)

--``We must neither believe in non-Ahmadiyan Islam, nor be led by them in prayer, because in our opinion they are disbelievers in one of Allah`s prophets``. (Ibid. pp. 90)

--``If a non-Ahmadi`s son died why ,we do not pray for him though he does not disbelieve in Ghulam Ahmad as the promised Christ! I myself ask those who have questioned me why we do not pray for the son of a Hindu or a Christian when they die....The non-Ahmadi`s son is one of the non-Ahmadis and for this reason prayer for them is not right``. (Ibid. pp.93)

--``The promised Christ was loathsome of an Ahmadiyan who wanted to let his daughter a non-Ahmadiyan. The man asked him many times, but the promised Christ ordered him not to do so. Then the man allowed his daughter marriage after the death of the promised Christ, so the caliph drove him away from his religious position and did not accept his penitence though the man repeated it many times until six years elapsed``. (Ibid. pp. 93-94)

--``The promised Christ did not allow any transaction with Muslims, except those permitted to be so with Christians and Jews. He distinguished us from Muslims in prayer, prohibited intermarriage with them, and prayer for their dead, so what is left to connect us with them? Interactions between people depend on two things and have two forms; a religious and a worldly transactions. The greatest means of religious transactions is to pray together and to intermarry. These two kinds are prohibited in our religion, and if you say that we are allowed to marry Muslim girls, I say that this applies to Christians, too. And if you question me why it is right to greet non-Ahmadis, my answer will be that according to a true prophet`s Hadith, he returned the greetings of Jews``. (Word Of Demarcation published in Rioy av Religinter, pp. 69)

Justice munir was greatest Butcher of Democracy. It is fashionable to blame religious orineted political people namely Mullahs. Munir gave justification for and laid golden path for future strong mens of pakistan starting with A to z and then to M. The mullahs or religious oriented politicians never led coups or carried out the killings in Bangladesh. All so called seculars are bogus and Lafangas talk is cheap. When the action is needed all seculars flock around strong men`s of Pakistan. One may like or not like religious people but they are not controlling part of govt. If govt followed the policy they liked they supported. The Buture of Bangladesh or Buture of balo.stan were not mullahs but the seculars of PPL. Mullahs did not carried our killings in Karachi but it was carried by Gen. Babar and his secular bosses. The ethinic killings were made by MQM of sindhis in Sindh , same way some famous sindhi nataionalists ( with great leaders calling themselves doctor Q M carried out killings in Hyd. bad they were all seculars damn good seculars. Seculars single heartedly supported killings in B.Desh. Except W.Khan of NWFP all were sad dogs looking to ``strong man`` for actions. Honestly secularism is of no significance when minority population is not there. Secular thought has value or relevance if there is thriving minority population. Its knod of passe subject. Its time was there at time of partition when Karachi and lahore had 50% ( plus minus) minority hindu and sikh population. They were ousted and with that secularism and it relevance was gone for EVER. ITs dry dead animal of no significance.
Secularism so dead and buried that we do not have to worry,. It is fatricide which is hovering our land. Shia doctors are slaughtered oner 200 Shia doctors were MURDERED no problem. Front. Post press was burned as for blasphemy.

The our PM in waiting is very pragmatic. To clear air he declared `` openly`` he is not minority and he is Sunni Muslims a us trained and Us green card holder. He is sure great secular to declare `` I am not minority and Sunni Muslim``. Now is he secular or Mullah ? or both. Our education lady headmaster declares I am fundamentalist. Our strong man is secular. All farce.
Secular shouting is joke. They do nothing. Religious bodies collect money and start religious schools. All seculars say they are horified and pack bags to usa or what not. They never stand upp collect funds as religious to start schools. They are lazy whining Lafanbebaz. Mostly seculars look for leftovers from army and hide themselves to do dirty work for army and declare great innonance.
Mullahs had never been power like secular PPP or ML but they are blamed by seculars.
Seculars have always supported army take over. Even well educated people like Manto lives, YLH and others have supported the present strong man. I can recall YLH going out of way to support General Sahib. or secular Bhuttos and what not. XXX Zindabad etc use to be exit line if i remember correct. Seculars are educated impotent , hitting at dead horse , mean , jalous of mullahs. Their argument is impossible to argue. They do not do little things like schools , social things like mullahs as they are too small and they do not do big things as they are afraid of strong man, total useless. Too much reading makes more foolish and frustration boils out on some stupid nonexiatant things like secularism etc. That J B Sameer is good man , atleast he does not change principles to suit situation.
Anyway this subject is beyond my mental capacity due mental inadequacies and combined with depression and anxity.
I ask for forgiveness for being wrong.

The only ones who ran out of arguments were Atif1, Escapist and the Mullah brigade... their arguments were exposed and hypocrisy was for everyone to see....

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003740&channel=gulberg#interact

The Liar and Loser brigade is in full swing....

Atif 1... learn to spell `habit` ok? You misspelt it on unplugged the other day as well and now you are spelling it wrong again.

As for attacking other peoples` sisters... I was only inspired by your brilliant ilog in which you attacked dostmittar in the crassest vocab:

http://www.chowk.com/show_interactor_page.cgi?membername=atif1

....


Madani...

You are wrong.

Besides what about Kiyani... who was fired by Ayub for speaking out against Martial law?

-YLH

Hey YLH.

Just for the heck of it, also paste your dialogues on unplugged with my replies as well. :P

So people know how bad of a charb zabaan I am. And it would be good idea to let them see how easily it is to inspire you.

Question still remains.
If Mullahs are all bad, and power always stayed with the englightened secularists, who is to be blamed?

Mullas, Pundits & Priest are very much a part of the society provided they confine themselves to Mosque, Mandar & Church.

Historically, the Muslims get this periodic fetish of REFORMATION which creates a bigger mess than providing any answer - be it Emperor Aurangzeb, Saudi Phenenomenon, Taaliban or the MMA.

In our case, the 2-nation theory provided the perfect trigger. And after creation of Pakistan, this theory was never officially buried stating that now it was ONE NATION based on its history, heritage, land, rivers, different nationalities, different religions, languages, cultures.

So the Mulla in politics will continue to be recurring phenomenon unless this confusion is officially cleared, put in the text books, into our Constitution & into our Law.

There is a good chance that if undiluted mainstream political process is allowed to go on, Mulla with political theories will automatically get purged out. There is no other way.

NHK

Re: Mantolives

It is nice to know that warnings were sounded years before, but it would be even better to know, why they were ignored. It is nice to know what the justice said half a century ago, but it would be even better had their advice been followed. The problem in Pakistan is not the lack of foresight; it is the lack of willingness to listen to the words of wisdom.

In Pakistan, we have a multitude of reports, which are always classified and whose conclusions are always ignored. Justice Munir and his report pale in comparsion to the question, why nothing was done, when the reality was so clear to behold?

In Pakistan, we have developed a sad tradition of bolting the doors after the horses are no longer in the stables and we act without realizing the long term consequences of our acts. We are responsible for creating the very disasters, which have harmed Pakistan and yet we learn nothing from our past follies. It seems that in Pakistan, such reports as Munir Report and others like it are nothing more than a feeble by a mute person to preach to a deaf person.

In Pakistan, we can write all the reports we wish and they will amount to nothing, because we never read their conclusions and in hindsight, they are as good as not being penned in the first place. The problem is that quoting people or reports in Pakistan is wont to do nothing, because at the end of the day, it is the lack of implementation of those words, which dooms all good ideas in Pakistan.

Ciao

PS: Frankly people I still don`t see Wajahat`s point... What does he want? Does he want all the liberals to shut up? What personal responsibility does he talk about? How am I responsible for the mess of the Mullahs, the sectarian violence, the religious intolerance that has been created by the Mullahs?? When have I attacked mosques with grenades? When have I carried out sectarian killings? When has any liberal done any of these things? Where have the liberals called for the indiscriminate killing? The liberals only stand for an un-hindered democratic process with equal rights for everyone... how is that contributing to the mess? Read the damn piece as a bit of history... if nothing else. Is it a crime now to speak of the Munir Report? Jinnah`s 11th August speech? calling for a separation of church and state? How does it hurt the Mullahs? And where in the name of God have I called for the indiscriminate genocide of the Mullahs ?

Though I have given numerous solutions on numerous occasions including the last post... but say I didn`t... does that mean that outlining the problem is not important? Should all the liberal writers around the world shut up? The solution to the problem of Religious extremism is NOT complex. One really needs to be a total duffer not to see what the simple solutions are... It is implementation that is complex and suffers sadly at the hands of political expediency... And say this whole exercise is worthless as Wajahat says.... then what is his contribution... criticizing another worthless article... I find the audacity of these expats really amazing... they preach about the ground realities of Pakistan while sitting thousands of miles away... as if we who lived here are buffoons or something.



How may I ask are these issues not related to the ground realities? Are Sectarian killings NOT the ground reality of Pakistan? Are Shiite doctors not getting killed in Karachi? Are ordinary professors not being jailed for blasphemy? are the christians of Pakistan who form a significant minority not being discriminated against? Are women of Pakistan not being oppressed under Hudood laws? Are they not being denied their equal inheritance? Are young minds of our nation not being brainwashed into mindless fanatics? Aren`t the jehad factories now churning sectarian terrorists?

And expats like Wajahat have the nerve to tell us about ground realities?

Wajahat...

Just because you didn`t bother to read carefuly, doesn`t give you a reason to go around bashing me like this or to claim nonsense about me... besides I never saw any solutions from you. This is what I call retrogressive nonsense... I challenge you to show me where I called for Mullahs to be Shot?

Do you even know me... or what personal efforts I have made for the solution of this problem? It is rather sad that people like you take it upon yourself to interpret as you please anything I write... if you don`t know me, how can you accuse me of anything...


In any event even on chowk I think I have presented multiple solutions to these problems... The solution to Pakistan`s problem with religious intolerance lies in the following:



1) Implementation of all the proposals of the Munir Report ... Separating Church and State completely in Pakistan.

2) Continuation of the democratic process

3) Review of the existing legislation in light of the fundamental rights of the constitution

4) Abolition of the CII, or at the very least CII to be filled up with scholars of modernist ijtehadi outlook on Islam.

5) Education reform... not just more education, but better education. Reform of the curriculum. Textbooks etc.

6) Promotion of Art, culture and music ... promotion of media, free speech and international channels. Access to Internet ...

7) Making Pakistan an integral part of the the global economy so that the Mullah is marginalized to a point where he is no longer a player nor can he afford to be a player.

8) Allowing for a liberal left movement to gradually re-emerge after going into hiding

9) Marginalizing the Mullah within the faith, by rejecting organized priesthood.



The question was never of Solutions as Wajahat keeps harping on about uselessly and without any real basis... We know what the friggin` solutions are... Who the hell is going to implement them is the question.



-YLH

Mullah Bashing United.....

So how does a problem get solved?

You blame it on someone and than blame it some more. That is the modus operandi of some of the writers here at Chowk. Of recent there has been a lot of Mullah Bashing going on this Site, some deserving, others too simplified and bourgeosie in its conclusions. Although pseudo intellectual debate has little effect on the ground realities, it creates a potent pool of information for the uninitiated, which goes on to creates perceptions based on pure prejudice. After detailed discussions about this issue with these liberal Flag Bearers, it is easily seen that there is no sense of personal responsibility in the equation. They almost have an illusive halo around them, which somehow puts them on a higher moral cloud from which they can sit and preach and point fingers. Much like what there bearded counterparts in the opposite camp do from their high preaching stations. The problem is that too many of us are focusing to chant the differences and throw the stones of diatribe at each other. They keep missing the point that Solutions are not part of the blame game, which is merely a point scoring game for all those Laptop warriors.


YLH is a perfect example of this elitist pseudo intellectual debate, the guy has build up a knowledge library of all the ways a liberal can blame the Mullah without coming up with a single solution. The closest he came to a solution was when he said that all of them should be shot. Put a beard on him and sit him high on Preacher’s Mantle in a mosque and we would stop seeing the difference. Thus proving that the Problem in Pakistan is NOT just a mullah problem but equally shared with the Liberal bourgeosie who keep getting the knickers in a twist without ever really coming up with any form of a Solution.

Mantolives - nice try. But I am not atif1.

ahmedmadani - Amen Brother!!! It is about time these hypocrite, liars and so called ``secularists`` are castrated for selling our beloved nation for the last 60 years. It is chumchas like Mantolives who, as ill-equipped as they are in arguing a case because of their sub-standard education at Rutgers, spread hatred. Mullahs are less hypocrite than people like Mantolives who attack other peoples` sisters behind the cloak of `secularism`.

As for Qadiyanis, Maududi had campaigned to get them seats in the Parliament on minority basis. Why minority basis? Because Qadiyanis THEMSELVES had historically categorized themselves as such. Qadiyanis had ACTVELY worked to suppress Muslims throughout the British occupation. If anything, Maududi should be given credit for his tolerance towards Qadiyanis given their historic allignment with British in subduing Muslims.