When did Freethought Cease in the Muslim World?

Urstruly/13, with all respects to your married friends as well as your respected mother whose son you proclaim yourself to be, all of you and some more need to go through Sex & the Umma at muslimwakeup.com . . . courtesy a friend from Oz (Sydney) who emailed me about the amazing Maulana Farid Esack from South Africa.

That apart, if there is to be a meaningful discussion on this subject board, then may I sincerely request all participants to stay within the subject?

Really, we need to work together to make this happen.

Some of my married friends say that free thought ceases right after the marriage.

More.

Much of what is happening in most of the ``Islamic World`` today reminds one of the ``Sick Man of Europe`` or 500 year old Ottoman Empire in the 1920s. From here in India it appears as though leaders from these countries and their opinion makers will accept demeaning conditions placed on them by the Americans IMF, World Bank and others . . . but express resentment and invoke ``national dignity`` when the advice is to share power with its own or solve issues with neighbours. And all in the name of Islam.

So, on to freethought in Islam.

Here is an interview, from Newsweek, which talks about progressive Islam in democratic Malaysia. Since it is about Islam from an American magazine, I hope it is acceptable.

Would such and interview have been acceptable if it was from an Indian or Pakistani? Read on, and let me know, please?

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Interview: Facing High Expectations
Malaysian Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi, whose coalition just won a landslide vote, aims to showcase progressive IslamNewsweek InternationalApril 5 issue - Malaysian Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi, 64, handed the fundamentalist Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party, or PAS, one of its worst-ever defeats in last week`s elections by touting a modern, progressive Islam. His ruling coalition now controls 11 of the country`s 12 states, and seems to have quashed the idea that radical Islam was infiltrating the politics of Southeast Asia.

NEWSWEEK`s Joe Cochrane and Lorien Holland spoke to Abdullah about the results and the challenges ahead at his residence outside Kuala Lumpur last week. Excerpts:


NEWSWEEK: Most analysts are saying the Malaysian people were endorsing you personally, not just the ruling coalition or your message. How does that make you feel?
ABDULLAH: It makes me feel good, but at the same there`s a feeling of responsibility. The feeling that I have to deliver now. It`s a sobering feeling.

Although PAS was routed in the elections, it still maintains some degree of public support. Are you concerned that certain elements within fundamentalist Islam will conclude that democracy is not for them and decide to go down a more extremist path?
At the moment, I don`t believe they`d want to do that. They will stay around.

Malaysia is a modern, successful Muslim nation. Do you see your country as a role model for the Middle East?
I will put it this way. We want to showcase Islam—Islam that is progressive, Islam that is tolerant and Islam that provides experiences and teachings that allow [Muslims] to live peacefully with those of other religions. When it comes to extremism, when it comes to dealing with terrorists, whether they are of Muslim faith or non-Muslim faith, we have to deal with that.

Malaysia may be showcasing itself, but is the Islamic world looking hard enough?
I think they are. There are many countries that I believe are very interested in what we`re doing.

What about the United States? Your predecessor, Mahathir Mohamad, had a sometimes rocky relationship with Washington.
We have a good bilateral relationship with the United States. Our differences have only been on political issues. We have a strong, principled stand on issues—we are against war. We support multilateralism, not unilateralism. We believe in the United Nations.


Next week Indonesia will hold parliamentary elections, and the nationalist-secularist parties are again expected to dominate, as they did here. What conclusions can we draw about the strength of political Islam in Southeast Asia?
I don`t know if Indonesia will draw any lessons from what`s happened here. Indonesians have their own problems. [In Malaysia] we cannot look for models to follow from any other Muslim country. No way. We are unique. We have a multiracial society, and the population of non-Muslims is very high. That is a blessing for us. It teaches us to be tolerant, to know that [non-Muslims] exist; to know that they are also Malaysians and that they have their rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

If you cannot enact most of your campaign promises during this five-year term, it`s possible there could be a backlash against you by Muslim voters.
I`m very aware of that. [There are] very high expectations. We have to work harder. I told [the voters that] if you give me a big mandate, I will work harder.

© 2004 Newsweek, Inc.

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Islam seems to be getting on. In Malaysia. Dare I say, also in India.

Thank you for an informative article.

I think the big problem starts with the usage of the term ``Muslim World``. I presume the author meant it in the context of ``Muslims in the World``. I would like to think that many people in this world would also interpret this as ``Muslims in the World, along with others``.

On the other hand, I also know that there are a large number of Muslims who do sincerely believe that the World needs to be fully Muslim. There is also the stated position, very often aimed at the illiterate mind, that the World was fully Muslim at some point in history/time, and that it is their claim to make it fully Muslim again. And that such a Muslim is of some unstated Arab desert ancestry.

This, obviously, can not happen. As a non-Muslim, I dis-agree with this ``Muslim world`` dreamboat, because I know that logically the world can not be Muslim. Simple as that.

If, however, the bulk of Muslims also started dis-agreeing, then there would be a problem for those propagating this thought of Muslim monotheism. Therefore, option available to leaders in Muslim society was to shut all free thinking, and work towards keeping larger numbers close to militantly illiterate and unemancipated. This is also, courtesy oil money, the loudest and most visible aspect of Islam in some parts of the world.

Probable Fix # 1:- Change, as always, shall come from within. Some Muslim leader/thinker will emerge, and probably be able to convince other Muslims that Muslims are a part of the World. To my observation and knolwedge, barring some Deobandi/Wahhabi and similar schools of thought, this is already happening. Ofcourse, such free-thinking Muslims can and are often declared to be non-Muslims, but then, numbers shall prevail eventually.

Probable Fix # 2:- ``It`s our oil under their desert``. With the economics of supporting this philosophy and motto in mind, please note how rapidly the economies of the ``closed mind Muslim`` countries seem to be going down into the drains. No money, no rice, and loyalty does not ride well on an empty stomach. Free thought amongst poorer Muslims in India, to my observation and knolwedge, is now reaching a point where hereditary control of mosques is being openly challenged. This has not happened for decades.

Probable Fix # 3:- Assimilation by demographics. There are perceptive indexes, soon to be borne out by facts, of how the habits of the True Believers and keepers of the Faith in taking multiple wives from all corners of the worlds are now bearing progeny who have grandparents from every corner and religion of the world too. The sheer number of male Arabs with Oriental or Caucasian features comes as a surprise to a casual visitor to the Gulf countries, especially if visiting after two or three decades.

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When did freethought cease in the Muslim world? I don`t know, and hawking history till the cows come home is not going to solve the issue.

The reality, however, is that it is my observation that freethought is coming back with a sort of pogo-stick effect bounce back amongst many Muslims in the World.

Go for it.

Dear freethinker...

The reason why `freethinking` is an endangered species is because every time some one tries this ... they run the risk of being maligned by the Mullah-brigade ...

A well known freethinker of chowk... Mr. Shiraz... has been the subject of ridicule and humiliation for writing an article of his point of view... One lady, self appointed guardian of morality and virtue, has posted a picture of him in her ilog to prove somehow that he is a very very bad person... This because other than making crass innuendos and posting pics supposedly indicative of `immorality`... this lady had no real or worthwhile argument ...


Let us put an end to this culture of `judgements` and slander first.

After the cyber-riot last week here on chowk... the Chowk staff has taken some important steps in countering this menace of abuse-culture... that sucked a lot of us in last week after an interactor abused a venerated personality of chowk like Dost Mittar forcing him to quit chowk.



-YLH

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Yea, i definitely should not have used that term. I only wanted to highlight the different kind of world and time that we live in than the medieval times.

My question was related to your use of word Muslim Renaissance. Shouldn`t we be using something else as a reference point which reflects this time? Muslim Renaissance cannot happen since there is no muslim empire left on the face of the earth and certainly Muslims are not a single political entity. I hate to bring politics into this but there is definitely a political connotation to the use of this term.

Adopting Pakistani/Indian, Middle Eastern renaissance etc. as our markers for this discussion is i think makes more sense. Religion doesnot seem relevant to be figured in this discussion except when we talk about history.

cheers-

Disappointing Gill!! I expected somethng better.

``......There is a catalytic realization in several Muslim countries that they should have nuclear deterrent like several non-Muslim countries.``

deterrent against whom? Jehadis? or the Americans? You want to fight the Americans because they are christians?

`` They also realize that the non-Muslim world would not help them in this venture; they have to develop such a deterrent by their own efforts and resources.``

Who are ``they``?? Yes, if you are talking about OBL and his sympathesizers- then you are right on spot.

``They will perforce have to relax (or release) the stranglehold on the rationalists. ``

So you think that we need to have more nuclear physicists because we need to have bombs???
You are nothing but an religio-instrumentalist who views sciences as a tool to achieve the religious objectives.

``..... A process of re-education is needed not only for the scientists but for the orthodox mullahs also. ``

re-eductaion for scientists in this context means what?? Asking them to discover new particle and natural forces so that these can be put to use for making bigger bombs by the muslim nations which can be used against the non-muslims? Gill you are lost. Now you are cracking up.

``The taboo subjects (philosophy and rational sciences) need to be taught and learnt``

For what purpose? Making bombs?

Dear His Excellency:

I appreciate what you wrote in your feedback. We seem, more or less, to be on the same page.

Dear Kaurasach:

I follow your line of argument and appreciate your ideas. I still like to think that intellectual rejuvenation of the Muslim world is likely to begin from the West; not from the Orientalists but from the `home-grown` Muslim scholars who chose to live in the West. The point you made in your feedback is undoubtedly important. The forward-looking-Muslims in the Muslim world will join forces with their brethern in the West. Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

Dear Raw_Dust:

Thanks for your feedback. What is the postmodern reality? I have read quite a bit about postmodernism, and other `isms` that emanated from it, such as, relativism, structuralism, social construction of science, etc. I though I had my fill of these `isms`. I had given my views on postmodernism in my essay ``Is Physical Science Socially Constructed?`` published on Chowk on February 21, 2004.

I hadn`t used Renaissance in its historical sense; I used it in its literal sense, which I thought was easy to understand. But then I might be wrong. I hope this explanation will be helpful. Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

re: Mohammad Gill

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The west and the western knowledge are taboo words in the Muslim world. We need to give them respect, which they deserve.
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To accomplish this, we need to do the following first:

(a) Distinguish between popular western culture and western tradition of research, rationalism and ``inductive reasoning``. Most Muslims associate promiscuity, drugs, materialism and capitalist exploitation with the West. As a result, the positive aspects of western tradition are overshadowed.

(b) Increase the salaries of educators, researchers and teachers. During the golden era of Islam, the scientists and alchemists were accorded respect at the Court of the Caliph. It was considered a status symbol to be a ``man of learning``. If we need to attract the best minds towards research and education, we need to pay them well and also accord them respect.

(c) Encourage a scientific (or in other words, a secular) approach to public policy, urban planning, etc. During the renaissance period, European innovators didn`t create new devices and methods just for the heck of it. They were responding to common problems faced by their communities. Many of these inventions were adopted by the city state and their creators were rewarded as well.

By implementing the ideas and adopting the inventions of innovators, the state bestows respectability to them... and also creates a healthy competition between innovators to outdo each other.

Gill Sahib:
Just one thought i had when i read what you termed as ``Renaissance of the Muslim World``. Dont you think it is a terribly outdated term. I mean who talks in terms of renaissance of the jewish world or hindu world or christian world etc. Probably, the only ones who use these reference points are fringe elements of the these societies. How about we see the postmodern reality as it is which in my view stresses individual identity and entrepreneaurship more than any linkages to medieval era groupings.

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