When did Freethought Cease in the Muslim World?

Echo: There is definitely something wrong with you :) Mujhae Khud`shaa Hae Kae Freethinker Naraa`z Ho Kae Ghai`b Ho Jae`n Gae. I like this topic. I also like the idea. There is certain depth in this article that makes you think on a very different level. The discussion has not evolved yet and you are bent upon irritating the writer. That`s why I requested you to mend your ways. Nothing personal otherwise. This is a serious topic and by bombarding this board with Iqbaliyaat, you are diverting the reader/interactor from making the best use of their neurons to come up with some questions and share their true experiences/observations. We are no longer in 5th or 8th grade to be swept away by Iqbaliyaat. It has its own place, but if one`s exposure and experience is only limited to the world dreamt and drawn by Iqbal then that person has yet to step out in the real world. Regards.

Freethinker: [If you have to open the closed minds of the Muslims, you have to understand how they were closed in the first place; you have to go to the roots of this malaise. ]

Bajaa` Far`maya! Thank God I have never read Ghazali. Even if I ever came across something by the said Imam, I do not remember the ins and outs. Unfortunately, I do not have the taste for religious readings. I am far more interested in reading about the good Russian Guy who died while contributing to the fabric of this world vs. reading Mernissi and others like her.

[I love Rumi`s poetry as I love Iqbal`s but I don`t buy their philosophy. This is my personal view; I am not suggesting that their metaphysics should be excommunicated. It`s a valueable Muslim heritage. Their metaphysics is okay if it`s considered as `fallible` like any other metaphysics. The reason I don`t like metaphysics is that it overemphasizes the `otherworldliness`. ]

ditto to the crux of your arguments!

Somehow, I am uncomfortable with Rumi`s words and verses. Iqbal has a different kind of authenticity. But I agree with your concern. To me, *some* of his core philosophies are misleading. I have no interest in the ummah promoting concepts. I am also skeptical of the motive behind some of his other perspectives on religion and women. With all said, he is extremely appealing and effective when it comes to defining and building the basic character. My five cents... Regards.

Re: echboom
``The freer the thinking--the higher the price``-
nice way to put it echoboom.

lemme improvise on it...
how about

``the freer the thinking -- the deeper you`ll be`` (in Dozakh)

mr. Gill,

Interesting and lively discussion and please keep it up.

Your heart is in the right place. When ones mind screams discrimination on the basis of following the heart , it starts making chicanery chess moves and makes a believer believe he is an unbeliever.

Perhaps you are not so at all. And that will always be in the realm of mysticism and metaphysics.

The more deep-rooted spiritual belief is the better. The more ephemeral material belief is , the better. But the problem always is when humans view matter as permanent and the spirit as temporary.

Now this is what ``Father TIME`` says through Iqbal.

ZahraJ:

But how come I always enjoy, appreciate, and admire your posts. Something wrong with me or are you really so perfect?

Lighten up lady. We are all big boys here.

You mind if I retain freethinker as a defence lawyer?;)

``The freer the thinking--the higher the price``--just coined that. Liked it?

echo:

No need to harass the freethinker. This is not a session on Iqbaliyaat, please! First of all there are not that many interesting articles on Chowk. Second of all, the ones that are interesting and controversial will invite diverse perspective(s). Why do you need to put down someone ? Please have a powwow with Urstruly. It will definitely calm you down. And, allah kae waste use your ilog to post the laheem shaheem articles and poetry.

Bye.

Dear Interactors:

Now that the discussion has nearly come to its end, I am taking some liberty of sharing some thoughts with you. I request that I may not be considered as some one pontificating; my intention is to share these thoughts with you.

Why can’t we share information with each other calmly and with a cool temper? Even if some one is demonstrably more knowledgeable than others, it’s much better not to use one’s knowledge as a weapon of aggression; it should be used as a mode of information. If one values self-respect, he should learn to respect others too.

Let me give you an example. Fatima Mernissi, the renowned Muslim feminist, narrated this incident in her book “The Veil and The Male Elite” (pp. 193-94). She wrote:

You can imagine my surprise when I was accused of lying at a conference in Penang, Malaysia in 1984, where I presented Sukayna (daughter of Imam Hussain) as a type of traditional Muslim woman for us to think about. My accuser, a Pakistani, editor of an Islamic journal in London, interrupted me, shouting to the audience: “Sukayna died at the age of six.” Trying to snatch the microphone away from me in a vindictive rage, he kept repeating: “She died at Karbala with her father! She died at Karbala!” Then smugly assuming the role of qadi, he demanded that I name the sources where I found my version of Sukayna’s history. I furnished him a list on the spot – in Arabic obviously. He looked at it with disdain and told me it was very scanty. In fact, it contained the names of Ibn Qutayba, Ibn ‘Abd Rabbih, Ibn ‘Asakir, al-Zamakhshari, Ibn Sa’d, Ibn al-Ma’ad, al-Isbahani, al-Dhahabi, Al-Safadi, Al-Washaa, al-Bukhari – in short, the great names of Muslim historiography. I learned later that this important editor, whose journal claims to contribute to a better understanding of the Muslim world, neither speaks nor reads Arabic.

Sukayna died in Medina at the age of 68…..

I have checked at least one reference, namely “The Women of Medina,” by Muhammad Ibn Sa’d, that was quoted by Mernissi and it bears her out. But that’s not my point. The point is: Where was the need for the learned editor to lose his temper, shout and attack Mernissi? He could have made his point professionally quoting relevant references in support of his contention. In this way, he could have given a better account of himself.

There is a lesson in this incident for all of us. Have a nice day.

Mohammad Gill

Dear echoboom:

I agree with your observation that the freethinkers disgree with and criticize the freethinkers. There is nothing wrong in it; in fact this is desirable. Please think over it.

Mohammad Gill

bhayya aap ko kaun roak rahaa hai. Dubaa kay free-thinking keejiyay. Jo krtay haiN vo ijazat naheeN maangtay yaa muzraat naheeN krtay. Naa hee vo free-thinkers kee anjuman qaim krnaa chahtay haiN.

Sazaa , Quayd, phaansee, dais-budr honay kee himmat chahiyay..buss usee vaqt price of flour and lentils becomes known. Hell, even mafiosos believe in such kind of freethinking and don`t mind risking their lives for it. Must respect them. At least they are not fattening themselves on taxpayers dole.

It is the salaried, the appointed, the tenured, the licensed, who are the real culprits. Remove them from positions and jobs and discover their abilities and I.Qs. The book-bugs and word-worms are the real impediment to freethinking. They consider themselves learned, knowledgeable, smart, paRRhay-likhhay, angraiz-rungraiz.

One has to pass or be willing to pass such tests. From Abraham (a.s) to Moosa (a.s) to eesa (a.s) to Mohammed (s.a.w) & several others from other traditions as well did so. Galileo and Marx also did so. The paradise of appreciation and recognition is almost always posthumous . Makes sense, doesn`t it?

It may come as a surprise to you but those opposing freethinking also view themselves as freethinkers..like those bent upon bringing peace, freedom, and democracy to the sub-divisions of cemetries.

So once you have found even a speck of gem as a result of your freethinking, please inform us pronto. In the meantime one who has a very very closed mind about maths but extremely open mind for music and poetry may not be very appreciative of your proletyzing efforts..as long as he is willing to suffer & pay the price for his art or science.

All the rest is 9 to 5 wage-earning & 5 to 9 brain-churning.

Dear echoboom:

Thanks for posting Iqbal`s poem. I believe I had commented on this poem in one of my earlier essays. Iqbal was a great poet but whatever he said was not the last word nor ``infallible`` indeed. I beg to differ with his philosophy particularly in this poem. This poem indeed is another lock on the Muslim mind. We need to go beyond what he said in this poem because it is retrogressive.

Our approach to knowledge is exclusionary. Iqbal`s views should survive along with those who differ with him. And others` views who differ with him should not be killed. Why is Iqbal afraid of the western thought? Did it occur to you that he acquired his education in the west and was then preaching to others to stay away from it?

Iqbal`s word is not Gospel. I should have every right, and you should too, to disagree with him, if you want to.

With regards,

Mohammad Gill

For those with open minds, but even more important, open hearts, please make full use of the COMPLETE works of ALLAMA Iqbal here:

http://iqbalcyberlibrary.net

It works! Access it!

Urstruly:

Voh humm sey huay humkalaam..

I do not do iy myself. ;). Cross-interact krnaa, generally, logistically incorrect hotaa hai.

``Lekin tiray khayaal sey Ghaafil naheeN raha``

Mazaa aa rahaa hai naa!

echoboom

For quite some time I have been looking for Iqbal`s complete couplet, one part of which goes as:


mere shaheen bachchoN ko baal-o-par de (ata kar?)

if you could point me to the complete poem, I would appreciate it.

Complete works of Iqbal AND related books on the internet

For those with open minds, but even more important, open hearts, please make full use of the COMPLETE works of ALLAMA Iqbal here:


Complete works of Iqbal AND related books on the internet

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echoboom: #95

Bemoaning our bad luck and cursing the imperialists will not get us out of the rut. Unless we work hard to develop ourselves so that others can`t take advantage of us, we`ll not break out of the vicious circle in which we are trapped. And this process will take time to produce the results. Make sure our children don`t suffer the fate that we had. Guide them into progressive and constructive fields.

I empathize with you but I am not going to curse others for our own defects and weaknesses. Regards,

Mohammad Gill