When did Freethought Cease in the Muslim World?

Mr. Gill

You are still mixing two related but different notions together. Unless we separate the two this debate will always keep on going on tangents.

First of all there is the notion of ``freethought`` which is the main topic of this article. The idea of freethought pertains to the realm of Philosophy. Secondly, their is the notion of ``freedom of thought and opinion``, which belongs to the realm of politics. Philosophy and poitics are two different disciplines and the ideas and method that two discipline employ are totally differnt.

Now this article of yours discusses mainly the idea of ``freethought`` and not that of ``freedom of speech and opinion`` because throughout this article you mention the work of various philosophers - Muslims and non-Muslims - and then start drawing conclusions that fall into the realm of politics. For example, your introductory paragraph defines what ``freethought`` is and as an example you quote ``Blasphemy Law`` which falls under the catagory of religio-politics.

The only philosophy that goes into the Blasphemy law is the philosophy of Jurisprudence and the only logic that goes into this law is the juristic reasoning. These two sciences are very different. And that is the reason almost every interactor on this thread is discussing the examples of political aspect of Muslim nation whereas what they ought to be doing was to put forth the ideas of modern Muslim philosophers and then dissect them - and this includes you too. It is pathetic that no one has even mentioned Iqbal`s Metaphysics of Religion. No one has mentioned Sirosh. Since you are the author and mediator of this thread I would like you to steer the thread in the direction that it ought to be. Aren`t you surprised why it has already turned into a thread of Muslim bashing?

re: #59

Posts like this strengthens my belief that Muslims wish to accept the Enlightenment and the products of it in the form of scientific/ industrial revolution, basic human rights and prosperity only grudgingly, hald-heartedly and out of compulsion. It really saddens me. Do you or anybody else chooses a major in college out of compulsioin and grudingly in order to succeed, achieve and prosper? I dont think people like to get degrees in matural sciences, information technology or even in psychology by first setting the parameters for not learning part of these disciplines.

By pointing out downsides of western cultures upfront in favor of 7th century arabic tribal culture even before taking the basic steps towards modernism western style clearly displays defensive, conservative and insecurities of Muslims. One can not get an ``A`` grade for taking the course grudgingly and out of compulsion.

Not only you but posts earlier also said the same thing in addition to blaming it on colonialism and neo-imperialism by selectively calling European rule as colonialism only when all major muslim empires were colonial for non-Muslims and non-Arabs and left behind only vague memories whereas colonialism in many places and areas left behind legacies.

It is wrong to first worry about downsides and later adopting upsides of western Enlightenment. The order should be logically reverse. More important takes precedence over less important. First adopt enlightenment, prosper, create wealth, improve human rights, separate religion from state, have democracy and then wealth and strength generated from such action be used to deter and stop the downsides of it from infiltrating into Muslim societies. Merits before demerits.

Islamic culture is not the solution to challenge demerits of western culture onslaught but native cultures are. Native cultures are tied to local conditions and geography whereas Islamic culture is superficial and imposed with the help of state, clergy and fear of unknowns. Islamic culture in no way competes in market place with western and native cultures because they help to create jobs, wealth and entertainment whereas Islamic culture creates none of these.

So you wish to succeed and enlighten but stay away from creating wealth and employment due to morally (Islamic) unacceptable cultural influences of the west. Then turn around and beat the native cultures too with the same stick and what little wealth, employment and entertainment they create disappear.

I have a perfect enlightenment, away from morally degrading western cultural influence, opportunity for Muslims with this mindset. Mix cow dung with hay, make cakes and dry them with western technology of capturing solar energy. No morally disgusting western influence will ever reach to you.

http://www.naseeb.com/naseebvibes/editorial-detail.php?aid=1695

On Dissent and Reform - Jul 15, 2004


Vibes featured perhaps the greatest linguist and media theorist when we interviewed Noam Chomsky this month. We expected there to be a collective rise of consciousness within our readers to accept reality of Muslims and “confront illusions,” just as Chomsky had intellectually re-examined his American patriotism and Jewish background.

If we felt victimized as Muslims, he said we must be cognizant enough to distinguish between, “vastly exaggerated and distorted reactions” and “authentic grievances.” Unfortunately, these lessons were lost upon most people who practiced only selective reading of Chomsky’s American foreign policy criticism; falling into the same trap of reactionary blame-game toward the US, to counter real grievances against its policy making.

We have clearly not asked the most important questions: Is there a Muslim country that treats a local dissident of Chomsky’s magnitude with dignity? Is there any Muslim of Chomsky’s genre alive today? How do we foster the culture of dissent in the Muslim world?

Taking the last question of Dissent first we need to recall the overriding message of the Quran, especially in the sprit of Surah Rahman, where Allah calls on us again and again to ponder over this earth’s physical construct, and to reject a life of denial by living in contradiction to its flow. Clearly, if a river followed status quo, it would become a pond and see its own decomposition in due time. The resistant boulders in its natural path are what create change of route. There would be no beauty without change. Without dusk there’d be no dawn.

Our lives call on us to evolve, grow and develop through a commitment to constant self-improvement. It is only a learned person that can appreciate the need to keep the mind open to challenge, criticism and reform. A common feature of all prophets was that the ideas they espoused, though divine intervention, were “radical” to say the least, for their people at the time.

Chomsky reminds us that, “In contemporary terms, the Prophets are what we would call dissident intellectuals. They were reviled and punished in their own day, though honored centuries later.”

We are quick to condemn ideas that do not echo our grand uncles’ lectures on the lap. But we must be willing to acknowledge, even if we disagree, that a dissident is

Most intellectual dissenters on Vibes are people who understand a fundamental truth about our reality: The United States has created and supported fundamentalism in Islam, not Progressive Islam.



a truth-seeker, though he/she could be wrong at the time, but has committed to rising above the need to belong and proposed an alternative to a stagnant situation.

With that realization in mind, we should be able to pick apart those people who call on reform for the sake of cosmetic appeasement of the West and those who sincerely are concerned for the advancement and empowerment of the Muslim world.

Most intellectual dissenters on Vibes are people who understand a fundamental truth about our reality: The United States has created and supported fundamentalism in Islam, not Progressive Islam. They know that the US has cultivated a retrogressive curriculum for Islamic Studies in many Islamic counties (Pakistan’s education system has grossly revised History and promoted an overbearing revengeful Islam in textbooks, orchestrated by the University of Nebraska.) They know that most Islam countries that are allies with the US are mostly undemocratic and in the case of Saudi Arabia, a virtual monarchy.

How then are these featured authors accused of falling for the West’s propaganda, when what they are calling for is a tolerant, progressive and modern reinterpretation of the way Muslims live? Tolerance, pluralism and democracy is only something that the US promotes in seminars organized by Think Tanks on Constitution Ave in Washington, but never lives up to in reality, as apparent by the student visa rejection rate of young Muslims who want to benefit from the renowned universities in the US.

And apparent from the promotion of religious parties in mainstream politics in Pakistan. The US had precious little to say about the unfair and undemocratic obstructions of the two main political parties in Pakistan, nor about the rise of political parties who want to implement the sharia in the constitution. What it did however say was that Pakistan has perhaps one of the best interpretation of Islam. In a debate on Islam, in the House sub-committee experts say:

“Pakistanis should thus be better able to integrate the religious impulse into a basically democratic political system without first establishing theocracy as in the Iranian and Taliban experiments. If they can he said, it will be the first version of religious legitimization for the modern nation state in a society with a recognizable Sunni majority. Pakistan, as such, is a major test case for the Islamic world.”

Law and order, equality, economic prosperity and social justice aren’t the soul domain of the West. These are just as much values we Muslims yearn for in our own nations and communities, and for those of us who hate the word, “reform” can use the word, “reclaim” because it was after all, our Ibn-e-Rushd that the western civilization was inspired by.

We Muslims, must be willing to partake Chomsky’s criticism of US foreign policy only if we are equally willing and able to change our own limited intellectual capacity to claim the rewards of just society.

Is there any Muslim of Chomsky’s genre alive today?

Unfortunately, he doesn’t live amongst us, but Eqbal Ahmad was a man of a kind when it came to dissenting against US foreign policy, as well as being a vocal advocate of reforming Islam for a more social uplift cause than a political one.

“All religious systems are made up of discourses which are, more often than not, dialectically linked to each other as in light and darkness, peace and war, evil and goodness. Hence, it is possible to detach and expropriate a part from the whole, divest it of its original context and purpose, and put it to political uses. Such an instrumentalist approach is nearly always absolutist, that is, it entails an absolute assertion of one, generally de-contextualized, aspect of religion and a total disregard of another. The phenomenon distorts religion, debases tradition, and twists the political process wherever it unfolds. The idea of Jihad is a case in point… It is a rare Islamist party today that devotes itself meaningfully to the mission of helping peoples and communities. To the contrary contemporary Islamists view with disfavour those who would follow the example of the sufi saints who in their time had waged the Greater Jihad.”

One last question: Why shouldn’t we be looking to be those change-masters while we live?

Footnote: http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_16-7-2004_pg7_33 http://www.bitsonline.net/eqbal/articles_by_eqbal_view.asp?id=57&cid=8


Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari

Editor in Chief Naseeb Vibes


Contact the Editor

Sameerjb#36

West’s obsession with instant gratification, through sex ,drugs, and alcohol is creating massive problems for the future economic and social wellbeing of its population.

Since the 60,s permissive society with many couples opting for one child, or no children at all, the population in the west would have declined had it not been for massive immigration. The situation in Britain where 1/3 doctors are from abroad, labour shortages in key sectors of industry.

PS
The mother of all ironies, in Iran fertility rate is below replacement level they have massive social problem of drug addiction and prostitution.

Dear ballukhan:

Okay, carrots as you said. It`s not blackmail but bribery. Again this is not my idea of disseminating freedom of thought. I have explained my idea in my previous post. There is nothing wrong with healthy disagreement. A disagreement doesn`t mean you are right and I am wrong or the other way around. It simply means we do not agree with each other`s viewpoint.

Regarding my solution; I do not have a solution. I tried to plead for a breath of fresh air, for you, me, and others. Fresh air is aplenty in this country. I was in fact pleading for fresh air in the rest of the Muslim world where it is stale and stinky for the people who want to think out of the box. I`m sure you understand what I mean. Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

``...I wanted to use `nukes` to blackmail the mullahs and other conservatives to allow freedom of thought.....``

You are putting words in my mouth- I said using the nuke program as a ``Carrot`` (not blackmail) before the mullahs . This is amply clear from what you wrote in the article.

``There is a catalytic realization in several Muslim countries that they should have nuclear deterrent like several non-Muslim countries. They also realize that the non-Muslim world would not help them in this venture; they have to develop such a deterrent by their own efforts and resources. For this, they need to have their own scientists equipped with the latest know-how in nuclear science and technology. They will perforce have to relax (or release) the stranglehold on the rationalists.``

That is, the muslim nations need nukes to act as a deterrence against non-muslim nation`s aggression. This need of the muslim nations can be utilized by the `rationalists` to their advantage by aligning themselves with the nuclear programs of these `muslim nations` and hence encouraging the spread of advanced particle physics and other related technologies in these countries. This is your thesis- not mine. And it is all wrong!!!
I agree with the analyses provided about freethinking- but I was disappointed with the solution you had to offer!!

Sameerjb...

Brilliant post once again....

The ages of renaissance, reformation and enlightenment also led to an intellectual renaissance in Europe... that is why parallel to the development of nationalism, we saw the development of the democratic ideas...

In Islam the absence of renaissance, reformation and enlightenment .... has meant that though nationalism developed out of the colonial experience, the development of democratic ideas has been stunted... Islam needs enlightenment...


The editor of Naseeb Vibes is writing some wonderful editorials on the issue:

http://www.naseeb.com/naseebvibes/editorial-detail.php?aid=1695


-YLH

``...I wanted to use `nukes` to blackmail the mullahs and other conservatives to allow freedom of thought.....``

You are putting words in my mouth- I said using the nuke program as a ``Carrot`` (not blackmail) before the mullahs . This is amply clear from what you wrote in the article.

``There is a catalytic realization in several Muslim countries that they should have nuclear deterrent like several non-Muslim countries. They also realize that the non-Muslim world would not help them in this venture; they have to develop such a deterrent by their own efforts and resources. For this, they need to have their own scientists equipped with the latest know-how in nuclear science and technology. They will perforce have to relax (or release) the stranglehold on the rationalists.``

That is, the muslim nations need nukes to act as a deterrence against non-muslim nation`s aggression. This need of the muslim nations can be utilized by the `rationalists` to their advantage by aligning themselves with the nuclear programs of these `muslim nations` and hence encouraging the spread of advanced particle physics and other related technologies in these countries. This is your thesis- not mine. And it is all wrong!!!
I agree with the analyses provided about freethinking- but I was disappointed with the solution you had to offer!!

Dear nasah:

Excuse my oversight. I hadn`t seen your post before I wrote my last response. I think I have answered some of your questions in my last response. You don`t need my permission, or anybody`s permission for that matter, to examine the Scriptures. You have every right to examine the holy book and at least understand what you are asked to believe. My respect for you is not diminished either way, for believing in it or rejecting it.

I love Iqbal`s poetry but not his metaphysics. Regards,

Mohammad Gill

Dear ballukhan and others:

I had stated Dr. Qadeer Khan in my essay as an existing fact. In your #52, it was speculated as if I wanted to use `nukes` to blackmail the mullahs and other conservatives to allow freedom of thought. This is a novel idea but not mine. Freedom of thought should emerge as a positive entity not through blackmail.

My thesis is quite simple. If Pakistan has acquired the technical skills in the nuclear field, continue with development in this field. Nuclear technology is not only part of the high-tech, it is part of science. Nuclear technology creates a number of spin-off industries and can work as a catalyst. This was my thesis. The other goodies that you mentioned in your feedbacks, such as, improving the quality of primary and secondary school education are laudable and I believe they can grow more freely and naturally in a freethinking society than in the controlled and suppressed one.

Also, as I have already clarified in one of my responses, I had used renaissance in its literal sense and not in historical sense. Islamic renaissance has nothing to do with historical renaissance of Christianity.

Finally, in my essay, I had stated that a freethinker is not necessarily an unbeliever and atheist. At the same time, if a freethinker questions the foundations of religious belief, he/she should not be despised for that reason. We should not just be complacent about such freethinkers, they should be respected for what they are. Religious belief by itself should not elevate a person above another who questions it.

Validity of freedom of intellectual thought should not be determined democratically, by number of votes, Intellectual excellence is beyond such evaluations and assessments.

There were prominent scientists who were believers. Einstein was a believer although he did not follow any traditional religion. The first thing that Professor Salam did after learning that he had won the Nobel Prize was to kneel down in thankful prayer to Allah. At the same time, there were and are other prominent scientists who are non-believers.

Hope the above has clarified at least some points. Thanks for your interest in the paper.

Mohammad Gill

#47 by _digit on July 16, 2004 9:01pm PT -- 00181951

No that is not what I wanted him to clarify. I was questioning the very rationale of introducing scientific thinking in the muslim countries by specifically encouraging nuclear programmes. Gill`s idea is that once we hold the carrot of nukes before the mullahs they would allow the scientists the freedom they require for theorizing. Freethinker has his thesis right, but the solution he prescribes for introducing scientific thinking is all wrong!! Read carefully what he says as prescription for the muslim nations.

In my opinion he should have started by emphasizing upon the reforms in the primary school`s scientific curriculum. Such curriculum must necessarily emphasise upon scientific theories that discredit the religious stories these children are made to learn through our folklores about creation of man, flatness of earth, astronomy,geocentrism, fantastic thesis about stars and various heavenly bodies, the thesis of a spirit apart from the human body,. The curriculum must necessarily focus on a scientific materialism and should un ashamedly focus on the improbability of religious miracles which are un-falsifiable theories which claim to refute the established theories of physical sciences.
I am questioning the very possibility of succesful scientific programs working with a pre-defined intent of saving the religious theories. I even go the extent to questioning the possibility of free thinking and scientific materialism flourishing in the `muslim` nations in which,by implication, the pedagogy has to be `Islamic` and hence the scientific thought must be subservient to the religious thought.
Gill is talking about Nuclear Programmes as the solution and completely ignoring the issues of SECULARISM. The fact of the matter is that only in secular environs scientific thought can hope to flourish- there CANNOT be a progress in sciences where the Church/Ulemas/REligious Councils etc decide upon the direction and vision of the scientific thought!!!

#47 by _digit on July 16, 2004 9:01pm PT -- 00181951

No that is not what I wanted him to clarify. I was questioning the very rationale of introducing scientific thinking in the muslim countries by specifically encouraging nuclear programmes. Gill`s idea is that once we hold the carrot of nukes before the mullahs they would allow the scientists the freedom they require for theorizing. Freethinker has his thesis right, but the solution he prescribes for introducing scientific thinking is all wrong!! Read carefully what he says as prescription for the muslim nations.

In my opinion he should have started by emphasizing upon the reforms in the primary school`s scientific curriculum. Such curriculum must necessarily emphasise upon scientific theories that discredit the religious stories these children are made to learn through our folklores about creation of man, flatness of earth, astronomy,geocentrism, fantastic thesis about stars and various heavenly bodies, the thesis of a spirit apart from the human body,. The curriculum must necessarily focus on a scientific materialism and should un ashamedly focus on the improbability of religious miracles which are un-falsifiable theories which claim to refute the established theories of physical sciences.
I am questioning the very possibility of succesful scientific programs working with a pre-defined intent of saving the religious theories. I even go the extent to questioning the possibility of free thinking and scientific materialism flourishing in the `muslim` nations in which,by implication, the pedagogy has to be `Islamic` and hence the scientific thought must be subservient to the religious thought.
Gill is talking about Nuclear Programmes as the solution and completely ignoring the issues of SECULARISM. The fact of the matter is that only in secular environs scientific thought can hope to flourish- there CANNOT be a progress in sciences where the Church/Ulemas/REligious Councils etc decide upon the direction and vision of the scientific thought!!!

my dear freethinker sahib:

excuse me for saying this -- the Eternal misery -- bestowed upon -- the eternally Circling -- Whirling Dervishes of a Muslim Umma -- lies in our acceptance of the Immutability of Quran -- as the literal and FINAL Word of God......to be obeyed and lived as every word of it -- for all times to come ...without innovations or alteration.......or be
damned and burn till eternity in the Islamic Dungeon of Disbelievers

unless we reeaxmine this deadly certitude...... we will never be truly free in our thinking

---

freethinker sahib...

as Iqbal has said -- Khudee ko kur blund etnaa.......khuda bunday se khud poochay bata TERI RAZA keya hai --

there is no indication that the Muslim`s Khudee -- buried under the tonnage of Permanence of Quran -- -- heavily chained to a blindered Belief in a man-written book -- presented as an unalterable word -- of a very humanly obedience-seeking God.......will ever get up even a millimeter above Quran to ask God -- quit ordering me around -- do this for God -- do that for God ....

. ..let me think for myself...please God -- and let me do things my own way according to my own times....and according to my own calculations, logic and rationallity.....will you please....

as Iqbal knew -- the Muslims will never come to a point where the Muslim man or woman will TELL God as to what he/she WANTS to do with his or her FREE WILL -- or his or her own life............instead of becoming a prayer mahine -- begging God -- day and night on a prayer rug....

what do YOU want this Muslim Quranic Slave....to do for you -- oh God.....

....kill some infidels?

Freethinking has not ceased in the Muslim world.

Freethinking (whatever that means) is not something that can be stopped or started like a water tap. Inquisitiveness is a part of human psyche. And all humans are programmed to possess it from birth. It has nothing to do with Islam or any other religion.

There are millions of Muslims in the world who indulge in freethinking, and in their religion, simultaneously. Without any problems. I am a scientist by education, a technologist by profession, and a Muslim by religion. Never once in my life has my religion conflicted with my science and my science conflicted with my religion. I cannot imagine life without either.

Hence I am always amazed when people express so much frustration in trying to align one with the other. Many, to the point of hating one or the other. And even blaming one or the other for all the problems in the Islamic world. This is more of a way to let out frustration, than anything else.

The question that should be debated is not whether Islam should be dropped altogether or not. That is a useless debate, becasue it will never be dropped by an overwhelming number of Muslims (including me). In fact, religion, of some sort, has outlasted all other, ``isms`` throughout history. Even now, the total number of athiests in the world is a tiny minority in comparison to the total number of individuals who follow some religion.

So, right or wrong, religion is here to stay. Perhaps this holds true, moreso, for Islam. Trying to remove it from the psyche of Muslims is a pointless effort or debate.

What should be debated is not whether Islam (or any religion) has stopped freethinking. What should be debated is why certain Muslims have been able to comfortably coexist with their Islam and science, in their personal lives. While other Muslims have so many problems in, simultaneously, fitting both into their personal lives..........

The other solution, of course, is to blame everything on the mullah. Or on the jews. Or on the USA........

ballukhan,

Sorry for butting in, but I think the military/weapons programs do go along way to encourage young`uns to go into Engineering/Science. Star Trek, Sci Fi in general, had probably done more for Sci. and Engineering than any elementry school Sci. Teacher.

Military, esp. areospace, is pretty much science fact, or yesterdays science fiction. Nukes have the same effect...people know what the nuke is and what it can do...it`s not a leap to start wondering how the heck the thing works. Hopefully, along their way Paks can discover Solid State physics and start fabricating/innovating microchips and stuff too... :-)

Excellent posts #39-41. Damn, now I know what I`ve been missing by not frequenting front page!