When did Freethought Cease in the Muslim World?

Mr. Urstruly:

You had also questioned as to what philosophy and freethought have to do with scientific and technological development. I had said in my paper that philosophy is not science. It doesn`t create science directly but it helps. They (Philosophy and Freethought) help one in disabusing himself of the pre-formed negative ideas and attitudes against constructive change and progress. They open up a closed mind which is so essential for doing first-class science. For instance, if one had stuck with the concept that ``energy was continuum and can never be discrete``, there would have been no Quantum Mechanics. Rationalism helps in demolishing the `prototype` thinking. I can go on writing in this vein and giving example after example but I think I have made my point. Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

Veeresh...

Have you read Mohja Kahf`s stuff... it is amazing... especially the way she goes after Tabari... Muslimwakeup is a website run by a Pakistani liberal... Jawad Ali ... who also contributes to Chowk...

Try also visiting Naseeb.com/naseebvibes ... needless to say ... it is a Lahore based Pakistan based website... I am sure you will like it...

Yesterday a very interesting discussion took place in a committee hearing in from of a senate or a congress committee in Washington... the discussion concluded basically that Pakistan, despite the superficial problems that have emerged with extremism, is the best bet for the formation of a tolerant tradition of Islam within the framework of a non-theocratic state... I see sadly that the trend is being reversed in Pakistan... but I really do hope the scholars testifying are right in being optimistic...

-YLH

Gill:
Instead of miring in unnecessary sophistication, you should have emphasized the simple truths.
1. Rationalism is always opposed by all religions. So inspite of Islam, people continued their search for objective knowledge for five hundred years till the common front between the Mullahs and the local kings materialized. Then, of course the two combined to hollow out the society leading to the disappearance of rational research.

2. The the rapacious kings and the Masjid made a nefarious pact. If the Kings would appear to subjugate their ambition to the ``sacred word`` defined by the Mullahs, then the Mullahs will supply them the canon fodder by creating enough confusion and incentives in the minds of the uncritical and illiterates. And desperation by keeping them poor so they collaborate in the teh rapacity committed on the neighbouring countries.

3. Both the kings and Mullahs stood to gain by the rapacity so it was beneficial for both.

4. While the rest of the world was getting educated the King-Mullah combine succeeded in kepping their populaces in dark.

5. Rest of the world, particularly the west, during last two hundred years gained by subjugating the kings in the muslim world and forcing them to continue to supply materiel resources to the West.

What to do now?
Educate muslims in non-muslim science and ways. Open up their mind to their in-born prejudices
.
Can this be done?
Mustapha Kamal Pasha succeeded for some time and to this day Turkey is the most developed country among muslims. At one time Pakistan was till 1947.!!! Thanks to the leadership following the death of Jinnah, Pakistan had to steal the German technology for nuclear weapons and the natural culmination of all this is AQ Khan. What a glory!!!!!

urstruly.

same old rhetoric...

what political repression do the muslims face, say in england, where they remain pretty much at the bottom of the education ladder?

i won`t even talk of india because you will most likely call it a hindu conspiracy...

``The future of Islamic renaissance probably lies in the west where millions of Muslim immigrants have moved to live.``

``The tragedy in the Muslim world is that it is in this unfortunate trap since the Industrial Revolution.``

Gill Sahib,
I feel that you are attempting to make a good case for modernization in the so-called Muslim world. The problem is that you are lumping a whole lot into one pot. When you talk about Islamic renaissance you basically negate the whole effort, you put forward in making a case for renaissance. There are about 50 Muslim Majority countries in the world and all these countries are in different stages of development. Barring a few, almost all can be lumped as developing economies but that too is a vast ocean. A country may about be ready to get into the modern world but another country may still be in a very primitive form of the economic development and yet another country may be just on the fringe of a total collapse. Then you also ignore the historical, cultural, and behavior patterns of people in different countries. They may all be Muslims but that may be the only common thread between these countries. How to reconcile those diverse factors to bring them all together in the modern world? Obviously, we are not looking for a miracle nowadays. You further overlook a vast number of Muslims that live in non Muslim majority countries. Why would those countries e.g. India would agree to be ruled by an Islamic government in an Islamic renaissance? Muslims living in India would have to follow the economic or modernization path a non Muslim majority in India wishes to take.

That is the reality of the situation that countries and people would arrive at a certain point of economic and intellectual development dictated by their own circumstances and situations. The other problem then would be that the country that arrives at the modernization before anybody else in the Muslim world may not be ready to be lumped as Muslim country. Obviously, you cannot force a country to call itself a Muslim country and force it to share its progress with other less fortunate Muslim countries.
One more problem is that there is no such thing as one Islamic government which controls all Muslim majority country so what would be the vehicle of the Islamic renaissance in all Muslim world?

Lets talk about the trap Muslim countries are in after the Industrial revolution. I am not sure if you used that metaphorically or you were referring to the western colonialism before and after the industrial revolution. Muslims were not the only people who suffered by industrial revolution. There were plenty of other people including Christians who were exploited by the fellow co-religionists from Europe. The whole South America suffered where there is not a single Muslim majority country and we also have India whose majority population is predominantly of Hindu religion. Now if people of different faith suffered the same due to industrial revolution and share those suffering, then why not make a common ground with ALL the people who suffered before and after the Industrial revolution and are still suffering due to other forms of industrial revolution including the MNCs.

PS. I don’t have a whole lot of time right now but if you feel my thoughts are worthy of some conversation, we can continue this discussion.
Thanks.

Mr. Urstruly:

Thank God, I found that you can write cool-ly without using cuss words such as `crap`, `divel`, etc. Why don`t you use this style? One can then understand better what you are trying to say.

Listen, you are mixing too many things together. If you tried doing every thing you would end up doing nothing. I know I am not a politician and I do not have political power. I cannot change what is happening in the political world. It should not be considered my shortcoming because I chose to become an engineer and not a politician and a dman good engineer I am.

I can feel sorry for myself, for my brethern, and for you Mr. Urstruly. But what good is that? It is totally unproductive. I know I can write (may be not very well otherwise you wouldn`t criticise me so much) and I can use this medium to make a difference in my own small way. Please do not stop me from doing this.

I have worked hard in my life (and so must you have) and I have made a small positive difference in my profession also. You can probably not appreciate it because you do not know me well enough.

At individual level, one should try to do positive things constructively and hope for the best. Stop sulking and start doing things which can be useful to others. All of us, Muslims and others, are one human race. Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

Gill Sahib

Let me re-iterate what I am trying to say in short concise words: My point is that the problems that Muslim world is facing are neither theological, nor philosophical, and least of all technological. That is because I have yet to see a devout Muslim who does not want a better life for himself and his family and prefer to live a life of hermits in caves. Even the poorest of the Muslims want education, health care, and clean drinking water. I have yet to see a Muslim who prays 5 times a day and content on drinking larvae laden water. I have yet to see a single canonical guideline that goes in contradiction with philosophical or scientific theory – just tell me one. That is also because I have yet to see a Muslim who is so scared of technology that every time he sees a DC-10 flying over his head he starts screaming scared; That is also because I have yet to see a Muslim who is not aware that the triple by-pass he is about to go thru is meant to save his life.

The problem with Muslims is political in nature. It is the political oppression that he faces at the hands of corrupt and incompetent rulers who are hell bent on keeping him oppressed and bound at all costs. They have created an atmosphere where Muslim does not feel the ownership of the land where he lives. He has been deprived of what is rightfully his. For him it is always us against them (rulers) because these rulers do not have roots in their populace. It is also the political oppression of Muslims by the rich and strong nations of the world who are not even willing to consider him a human being. And to add insult to the injury, as if all that was not enough now Muslim is facing a naked military aggression and a level of carnage that has a precedence only in WWII or genocides like that of Rawanda. Please explain to me how these problems are philosophical or theological in nature. Muslim possesses the God-given ability to think freely but he is being forced to shut up. And if he is allowed to speak he is being forced not to act. But despite all odds Muslim has never given up struggling for an honorable existence in the world among his peers. He has never stopped dreaming.

Mr. Urstruly:

The trouble in responding to your feedbacks is that one does not really understand what you are trying to say. You keep on jumping from one point to another without making any.

At first, you have to come down from your high moral ground, your high pedestal, to a level where a ‘lowly person’ could communicate with you reasonably. I got the sense that you are hurt at what is happening to and in the Muslim world. You should try to understand that almost all the Muslims feel the hurt. You don’t have monopoly on these feelings. You feel good about yourself by monopolizing these feelings. I don’t have any problem with that: Feel good.

At first take a deep breath and read the article again. Empty your head of all the pre-formed ideas about the author. You might realize that it’s not the drivel you thought it was. If you still believed in your first impressions, then understand that we are two different persons; not necessarily bad and ill-intentioned, but different.

The tragedy in the Muslim world is that it is in this unfortunate trap since the Industrial Revolution. The realization was there that the Muslim world needed to develop technologically in order to keep its sovereignty. It never had the will to seriously found a tradition of technological development because there were always other, more pressing, things to do like bemoaning our bad luck, the treachery of the West and others, shutting up ill-educated and ill-informed people like Mohammad Gill, so on and so forth. Muhammad Ali in Egypt tried to import western technology from the west but failed because it didn’t take any roots for lack of consistent effort. The Ottomon Turks desperately tried to do it but there were always preachers against the west who emphasized other important issues.

Now Mr. Urstruly you are trying to shut me up by ridiculing me and not even allowing me to emphasize what we need to do in order to develop technologically. You think it’s crap. Let me tell you that ‘change is in the wind’. The Muslim world has already given birth to Professor Abdus Salam and Dr. Qadeer Khan; others are going to follow in their steps no matter what you say. Good luck to you. I wish you well,

Mohammad Gill

Ok, jokes aside, now that I have read the article I am ready to comment.

Frankly, Gill Sahib, I am kinda running out of patience with your never-ending recycling of this mindless drivel that is being fed into Muslim world for the past so many decades. All you have is a one-size-fit-all solution to all our problems and that is to discard the dogma. As if as soon as we discard the dogma we will be establishing colonies over moon. First of all I do not buy the crap that only white man particularly a WASP has a monopoly over ratinal thought. If you beleive in it then prove it to us. While you do that, please explain to me when did the movement for a rational thought occured in Jews. When did they re-interpretted their dogma and conformed it to the new found scientific discoveries; when did protestanism happened in Jews. When did renaissance happened in Jews. As a matter of fact as the so called renaissance was happening in Europe, Jews were being hounded out of Europe like animals taking refuge in Muslim lands. As a matter of fact until the middle of last century they remained untouchables throughout the lands of free thought. But despite that today Jews are running the show in the world. Today worlds top most scientists, doctors, economists, entertainer, filmmaker and what not are Jews. Every other Noble Lauriette is a Jew. Eisnstien is Jew, Freud is Jew, Jung is Jew, Carl marx is a Jew, Adam Smith is Jew. Today anywhere in the world when a political murder occurs in any part of the world a Jew has somehow hand in it. Please explain to me when did Jews debated non-sense like whether god sits on a throne or floats in skies. Please explain to me when did Jews debated as to how many angels can pass through an eye of a needle simultaneously; please explain to me when did Jews started debating whether god can create a stone so heavy that even he could not lift.

Please open up your eyes, Gill Sahib, for God sake before its too late. Not every nation in the world has the similar experience, history or culture. Their ideals are different; their thinking is different. The evil curse that is hounding Muslims as a nation is the scourge of past colonialism and current neo-imperialism. Please, Gill Sahib, open up your eyes and see that this neo-imperialism is gobbling up one country after the other. Afgahanistan is under military occupation, so is Iraq, Saudi arabia, every country in the Gulf, every other country in africa and a gun hovers at the temples of paksitan all the time. And those so called free Muslim countries are under the clutches of mindless dictatorial puppets who treat their own people like worthless flies. They have created bureaucracies that suck the blood of Muslims like heartless vampires. Such is the maliase, and such is the extent of oppression that as the day dawns in Muslim lands men from a street sweeping choora to the so called Presidents start eating their countries and keep on doing it until they go to bed. Today Muslims are being slaughtered all across the globe in the name of freedom and enlightenment in a way which may even shame the inquisitors and conqisadors. Today, Muslim women and children are shown raped on our big screen TVs in the name of freedom and men shown being peed upon with hoods on their heads and Gill Sahib you want us to start debating whethr god exists or not? Gill Shib for God sake, in the name of humanity, if you do not believe that there is a God, do not misguide people. In the name of human dignity, if god has given you some knowledge, try to guide people thru this time of tumult and not misguide them.

Good and necessary piece Mr. Gill. Hopefully it`ll provide a basis for others to help proceed and draw some lessons from.

Cheers!

Good one Gill Sahab, what is even better is how you reply to your admirers and critics.

IMHO, the article questions how and why Free thought ceased to exist in one of the most thriving and vibrant civilizations of human history. People of other faiths and civilizations are free to do this sort of introspection as well, otherwise, do not spoil such a fertile debate with notions of Islam bashing and Jihad.

What is more important is that we move forward and instead of quoting names like Sina and Rushd, start building the foundations of an educational system that promotes such values.

Ref Urstruly #13

[Some of my married friends say that free thought ceases right after the marriage.]

That raises the very interesting question: wasn`t Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) already married to the revered Khadijah when he was writing down the Holy Koran?

Gill Sahab,

Thanks for an enlightening article. There is scope for free-thinking and innovation in Islam - Jehadi fervour is just a phase and will pass, Inshallah!!

There have always been inward looking and forward looking people in all religions - Islam is no exception. But, given a chance Muslim people are capable of doing well without renouncing their faith or heaping scorn (as Warraq and Ali Sina do). However, free-thinking means open-mindedness, to be able to think out of the box. And bringing too much of religion means we`ll be back in the box.

In Malaysia, there are Muslim entrepreneurs, and also in USA. Irrespective of demographic composition, Muslims shine. And that is when they don`t think as a Muslim but as doctors, engineers, scientist ET all. This dedication to job at hand is important, something that explains Abdul Kalam or Azim Premji`s successes in India. They are Muslims when they go to Mosque/pray but outside they are like any other individual, just discharging his/her role.

We must study science, can make bombs but this is not for nuking non-Muslims. Let`s make progress for our own sake and not for outsmarting others.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

I knew it. There is a hindu agenda behind all this talk of free thought.

Dear mantolives, and other interactors:

I see your point. It has bothered me also. It`s up to us make Chowk a fish market or a place of reasoned and intelligent discussion. A good and relevant feedback, in my view, is the one which discusses the contents and essence of the paper in an impersonal manner without indulging in slanderous and degrading invasion and innuendoes about the author and the other interactors. By putting a person down, your point doesn`t necessarily become any more valid or pertinent; more likely, it loses some of its relevance also by unfairly attacking the other interactors personally.

Many of us are obsessed by jihadis, radical Islam, and terrorists. They bring in these topics for lengthy discussion whether they belong in a discussion or not. They should write articles of their own on these issues if they feel so strongly about them. I am not an expert on these issues, so I refrain from discussing them. My article is about freethought in the Muslim world.

It`s a shame that a respected Chowk member ``Dost-Mittar`` (although I know very little about him personally) chose to leave Chowk (in disgust). He should be welcomed back. He has every right to express himself like any of us. If some of us do not like his views and feel that they cannot critique them without attacking him personally, they should better keep quiet. They can ignore Dost-Mittar`s views and move on.

I`m sure most of us can write intelligently. Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill