When did Freethought Cease in the Muslim World?

Sameer,

One cannot get an ``A`` grade in a science course by understanding the philisophilcal and historical underpinings of Western science either. What one needs to do, and this should not come as a surpsise to anyone, is the *course work*.

``Islamic culture is not the solution to challenge demerits of western culture onslaught but native cultures are.``

Islamic culture is vague and amorphus, and that is exactly why it is not a solution to anything. Muslims can and probably will slap the ``Islamic`` or ``Muslim`` label on Scientific institutions once they start (is ANYONE doing the ground work yet?). Local cultures are inherint nonsense that will only weaken a nation state, and have nothing to do with a Scientific mindset. Local cultures is basically language and food...and are invariably devoid of the ideology you try to inject them with.

Dear echoboom:

You have presented a classical example of a closed mind. Without meaning any disrespect to you, may I suggest that a little ventilation may be good for intellectual health. Seeing the other side of the coin, the other`s point of view might help broaden one`s perspective on life. After all, majority of the people in the world are not Muslims. We have to live with them.

Zameen junbd, nah junbd Gul Muhammad, wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

Freethinker ( bay-lagaam muffakir yaa muft-muffakir ? azaad is NOT free, it is independent)

Umr saaree tO katee sahib-e eemaaN, aye Gill
akhreee vaqt mein kya khaak bay-eemaN hogay?

(Momin khan momin sey mu-azrat kay saath.)

61# sameerjb

unfortunately you drew wrong conclusions from my post, never once did I write in favour of islam, in fact I stated that situation in Iran is somewhat similar.

Islam wasn’t the solution in the past, it certainly isn’t in the future, at the same time I honestly believe western culture shouldn’t be the last word in human civilisation.
The demise of once great nation like Britain due to falling birth rates and immigration,
presently the population of London is 1/3 ethnic minority, it has been estimated that if present trend continues white indigenous will be a minority in the next 50 years.

Enlightenment is irreversible in the muslim world, one only has to visit places like Turkey, and Tunisia who are on the threshold of joining the first world.

In one of your posts you are advocating muslims should adopt china’s one child policy, in another you are advocating human rights, that’s contradiction if ever there was one.

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urstruly

often enough i have asked this q to you but you seem to skip this, why. the arab world seems to be devasted spiritually/emotinally due to the colonial experience, or so is one stream of thought. how much of this devastation (begun since halaku ) is attributed to ottomans? french and the brits came much later, and endowed the arabs with oil, which i dont think the arabs would have found on their own. so, how is this rationalised? please please please make me understand this.

thanks.

amazing article!

ballukhan:

I do not belong to any formal group of freethinkers. I am not constrained by any rules prescribed by such groups or organizations. To me, many dedicated humanists appear as dogmatic in their arguments sometimes as any other orthodox group. I like to do my own things.

Kahta hoon wohi baat samjhta hoon jisay haq
Mein zahr-e=halahal ko kabhi kah na saka qand
(Iqbal)

Mohammad Gill

I.
[Religious freedom and freedom of thought in these countries are bound to fire up the interest of the Muslim generations growing up and going to school in the west. They will be free to demarcate milestones in the work that they choose to do. Muslim theology scholars may (and will) emerge from them to reinterpret Quran in appropriate ways to disentangle and release the Muslim world from the clutches of 1400 years old culture.]

Good points!

[The Muslim world was overtaken by mysticism and metaphysics. All the philosophers subsequent to ibn Rushd, in the Muslim world, were metaphysicians. The Muslim world lost touch with the physical reality and drowned itself in the ‘otherworldliness.’ The Muslims lived their lives to lose materialism (no material comforts) and to make a smooth passage to the ‘other world’ through recitation (zikr), meditation, ritual prayer, and other associated practices. Eschatology became more important than rational and physical sciences. This brought us to the crossroads where we find ourselves standing now and wondering, “What happened?” ]

To ask the above question, ``What happened?`` is a good sign. It`s a sign of being awake.

Urstruly:
Checkout the latest Time Magazine. There are two excellent features, one on JFK and the other one on Mike Moore. After watching F-9/11, no sane muslim can stand the Saudis and their pranks. It`s a disturbing documentary. But it`s a beautiful portrayal of a nation that is capable of understanding both sides of the story. The story of the brave mother from Flint, MI and the Iraqi woman who cries out loud and clear ``Hasbee`Allah`o`Wa` Nae`mul Waqeel`` were enough to make the documentary a lesson for mankind. For me the most beautiful part was being amongst an audience who showed exactly the same sentiments that Time Magazine`s feature mentions. A worth reading feature!

#58 by freethinker on July 17, 2004 7:41am PT -- 00181995

Ofcopurse I understand what you mean and fully appreciate the issues you take up on the board. I was only pointing towards your prescriptions which I thought were damaging to the cause of freethinking- because freethinkers are essentially fallibalistic and hence can never align with a non-secular (which is what `muslim nation` apriori means!) state.

#58 by freethinker on July 17, 2004 7:41am PT -- 00181995

Ofcopurse I understand what you mean and fully appreciate the issues you take up on the board. I was only pointing towards your prescriptions which I thought were damaging to the cause of freethinking- because freethinkers are essentially fallibalistic and hence can never align with a non-secular (which is what `muslim nation` apriori means!) state.

[But despite that today Jews are running the show in the world. Today worlds top most scientists, doctors, economists, entertainer, filmmaker and what not are Jews. Every other Noble Lauriette is a Jew. Eisnstien is Jew, Freud is Jew, Jung is Jew, Carl marx is a Jew, Adam Smith is Jew. Today anywhere in the world when a political murder occurs in any part of the world a Jew has somehow hand in it. Please explain to me when did Jews debated non-sense like whether god sits on a throne or floats in skies. Please explain to me when did Jews debated as to how many angels can pass through an eye of a needle simultaneously; please explain to me when did Jews started debating whether god can create a stone so heavy that even he could not lift.]

Interestingly enough the same jews are also extending scholarships to muslim countries in the subject of journalism. And, the muslims will and are taking up that offer. To do what? To write against the jews :)

Romair

Quite true. I oppose the current ideological stance of the USA, because it is hurting human beings not only globally but domestically as well. Only last week, I went to see the movie ``Farenheit 9/11`` and just to get even with US government for using my taxes to kill human beings I took as many friends as I could with me. So that I could send as much more money into Mr. Moores pocket as it is possible for me. THere were about 14 people with me and I paid for their ticket. Up untill the half of the movie I sat with my friends and I must admitt that in some murky corner of my heart I felt a glimmer of glee that these people, Americans, who have hurt human beings to such an extent all over the world deserve what they have got. I even propsed to my friends that the title of the film should actually be ``How to fuck a Nation``. The motion was passed unanimously. But as the movie went half past I started to feel sad. 15 more minutes went by and I couldn`t sit with my friends anymore. I quietly rose up and sat in the back. I did not want my friends to see my watery eyes. It was just so hard to take it any more; it was not easy to take that how a decent law abiding nation is coerced into such lewdness; some very greedy, heartless, bigoted and prejudiced men have hijacked this great nation. I was also thinking if a nation like America can be coarced into such prejudice and so much hatered then what games dictators play in third world to their own people. I felt sorry for all the oppressed, unfranchised people of the world who have to deal with an evil that effects them every minute of the day and there is no way out. There is no hope.

I intend to change this ideology and I will do whatever it takes. Human beings do not deserve oppression in this century.

Urstruly #62: ``I think you need to take a number, there are several guys like Arjun and Romair ahead of you who think that I should be out of a country to discuss it.``

I don`t think you should be out of the country to discuss it. I just think you are a hyporcrite for considering a country the cause of all the evil in the world, and yet still migrating their, living off its facilities, and contributing into it`s coffers.

Any person volunteerily migrating to a country, and using its facilities, should have some loyalty to it. He/she certainly cannot consider it the biggest evil of the world. If he/she does consider it the Great Satan, then he/she should not migrate to it. Or move out of it, if he has ended up there somehow. Unless, of course, he/she was born there, and did not volunteerily move there.

You are trying to run with the hares and hunt with the hounds. Personally, you are benefitting through the USA`s system. While ideologically, you oppose it completely. That is a clear definition of hypocrisy, i.e. tumharey qual aur fael mein tazad hai......

Hopefuly that clarifies my position......

Dear Urstruky:

I suggest that you write an article on freethought and present your ideas in it. I have no rigid barriers between a theory of politics and and its philosophical critical review. Knowledge indeed should not have rigid barriers. I tried to make a point that every creative activity should not be suspended because our politics is all messed up. Freethought need not be constrained by messed up politics. I had given two examples in one of my previous posts; of Muhammad Ali and Ottomon Turks. Technological development did not take roots in the Muslim world because of the mix of religion and politics. I am against the concept that creative activity should remain suspended until politics is sorted out. The creative thought should be liberated from the clutches of religion and politics. It appears that we have different views on this; it`s okay. If you believe you still want to say some more, you can say so more effectively in your own article.

Regarding Iqbal`s metaphysics, I had previously expressed my views in my article ``The Metaphysics of Religion``, which was published on Chowk. I have great respect for Iqbal and I love his poetry but I don`t like his metaphysics.

In a free society, I have the freedom to hold my views. People can disagree with me but they should not tar me simply because I do not agree with their views. And there is no definitive test that detremines that one set of views is superior to the other. Metaphysics and Philosophy are not like physical science which can be empirically tested. Philosophy, if it has logical consistency, is worthy of attention but is not necessarily true. Philosophy to me is attractive and appealing because it helps opening up a closed mind; it doesn`t ask you to have unshakable belief in a dogma.

Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

Concerned!

I think you need to take a number, there are several guys like Arjun and Romair ahead of you who think that I should be out of a country to discuss it. Whereas Manto wants me to be IN a country to discuss it. Then there is tahmad who keeps on flip flopping depending on whom I am criticising. Why don`t all of you guys hold a conference and come up with an agreement on my code of conduct.

By the way in my last post I was only saying that I am not an encyclopedia.