Kashmir: Everyone has lost in their own way

if pakistan beleives that india will allow remarking of boundaries in kashmir, then they are living in a dream land.
if the region becomes peaceful then the borders can be opened, and issues settled. but pakistan is becoming volatile by the day , so how do we beleive them?

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tobateksingh #35
It wasn`t zactly an outburst(though it did sound like one). I only paraphrased a `fundamental religious` argument in support of jihad in Kashmir which no Pakistani seems to have an answer to.

Even open support for Afghan jihad was ended using a nonreligious argument of `Pakistan first`, the `irreligiosity`one would think was inherent in the excesses of the Taliban regime apparently being irrelevant.

sadna,

not sure what I said to deserve that outburst, esp. given that I was agreeing with you.
what gives?!

khair, sorry about the late reply, apparently I don`t follow discussions regularly enough.

Aman

Stuka

I still stand by my ten points.

Urstruly

True enough. I agree with you. I also know however that you yurself have indicated that solutions to Kashmir are possible without territorial distribution. I still remember your ten points. :)

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Listen to the song, courtesy Led Zepp . . .


Oh let the sun beat down upon my face, stars to fill my dream
I am a traveler of both time and space, to be where I have been
To sit with elders of the gentle race, this world has seldom seen
They talk of days for which they sit and wait and all will be revealed

Talk and song from tongues of lilting grace, whose sounds caress my ear
But not a word I heard could I relate, the story was quite clear
Oh, oh.

Oh, I been flying... mama, there ain`t no denyin`
I`ve been flying, ain`t no denyin`, no denyin`

All I see turns to brown, as the sun burns the ground
And my eyes fill with sand, as I scan this wasted land
Trying to find, trying to find where I`ve been.

Oh, pilot of the storm who leaves no trace, like thoughts inside a dream
Heed the path that led me to that place, yellow desert stream
My Shangri-La beneath the summer moon, I will return again
Sure as the dust that floats high in June, when movin` through Kashmir.

Oh, father of the four winds, fill my sails, across the sea of years
With no provision but an open face, along the straits of fear

Stuka

and so it was form people in East paksitan

``Every oppressor thinks that he is in control and will be in control forever using his murderous and unjust policies. Every oppressor thinks that the more pain he will inflict upon the weak and helpless, the more obedient the oppressed will become. Every oppressor thinks that as long as he is doing more harm to the weak and helpless, than the later can do to him, he will stay in control. ``

Accha, that must be very reassuring for the people in Wana as well as the Baluchis who have been blowing up the Sui pipeline. :)

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tobateksingh #22
What the Indian Army does is expected, given that it is an evil infidel army which is synonymous with being off track.

I don`t think the movement itself has lost track, we have it on good Pakistani authority that ALL that the jihadis do is in service of Islam and Muslims - those jihadis will go to heaven for raping and torturing that 14 year old and advancing the cause of Islam and Pakistan in J&K by whatever means possible. You will have good company when you get up there.

Urstruly# 24:

I think this correctly describes the birth and progress of Islam in the world. However, the rest of the world is becoming equally brutal which should be a great worry for Islam and its hardcore followers. Unfortunately, that is the only way left to eradicate violent religions or religions that have turned to violence.

Amit

Every oppressor thinks that he is in control and will be in control forever using his murderous and unjust policies. Every oppressor thinks that the more pain he will inflict upon the weak and helpless, the more obedient the oppressed will become. Every oppressor thinks that as long as he is doing more harm to the weak and helpless, than the later can do to him, he will stay in control.

Good luck with your plans.

[#21]

I think so India needs a process whereby family of someone who surrenders to police is protected. May be ``change of identity`` like they do in USA might not be feasible, but could not they have moved the family to a new home (say) in Delhi or any other city?

arjun,

I think you misunderstood me... I don`t know about it being gay or anything, but I was actually expressing my cynicism regarding idealism. And linking that to the diehard nationalism (also an ideology) of many in this discussion.

I agree that we`ve hurt ourselves much, much more than we have India. But that still doesn`t mean that the freedom struggle, at least initially circa 1989, did not express a genuine desire for autonomy. But, is genuine-ness enough?

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The article posted by sadna in #21 shows, however, that the movement has gone totally off-track. They have lost moral credibility and also their basic asset - the support of the population (well, they will if they keep inflicting more wounds than the Indian army).

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stuka said in #18 ``Only way out is to expand the kill ratio and also change the demographic balance. The latter unfortunately a week Indian government has not done but it is still a possibility.``
This is chilling - ``unfortunately``?? Are you spoiling for a fight?

http://www.newindpress.com/Newsitems.asp?ID=IEP20040713133738&Title=States&Topic=0&Full~Story

Price for surrender: Sister hostage, raped, mutilated over 25 days
Wednesday July 14 2004 00:00 IST

CHANDERKOTE (DODA): She is afraid to talk. And when she does, it`s in suppressed whispers _ of 25 days of torture at the hands of militants who raped her repeatedly and chopped her ears and nose before she was rescued by the police.

Barely into her teens, Mariam Begum, is a ghost of her former self. Three days after the police brought her home in this village of Doda, she cannot stand on her feet. Her legs bear marks of brutal thrashing, her breasts branded with hot iron rods. Her hair is closely cropped, visible only between the bandage wrapped tightly across her nose and ears.

Mariam has been ``punished``for her brother Abdul Latif`s decision to quit the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen and surrender to the security forces, says her uncle. Frustrated with the militant outfit, Latif had surrendered on June 7. On June 16, militants stormed the Mehad Dhar where Mariam and her father, Mohammad Ibrahim, were taking a nap.

The militants took them to their hideout and over 25 days, tortured them for failing to stop Latif from surrendering. ``Everytime they hit me, they said, `You know the pika gun your brother handed over to security forces costs more than Rs 26 lakh. Unless you get that back we will continue inflicting wounds on you`,`` Mariam recalls.

A day before the police found her, one of the militants ran the tip of a knife from her neck to her stomach. ``Then, he suddenly he started cropping my hair with the knife. I was yet to recover from the pain they inflicted by chopping off my nose and ears,`` says Mariam.

Policemen found Mariam in Gandoh forest three days ago, beaten up and bleeding from her nose and ears. Her muffled sobs reached them when they were patrolling but the militants, Noor Mohammad alias Ansari, Bashir Ahmad and Dilawar, managed to flee. Her father returned a few days ago.

A month ago, Mariam`s uncle worried if anybody would marry a militant`s sister. Now, he can`t stop crying on seeing her. ``With disfigured face, will Mariam ever get a match for herself?`` he says. Deputy Inspector General Satvir Gupta promises help for Mariam`s treatment. ``For specialised treatment, we have decided to shift Mariam to Government Medical College (GMC) Hospital, Jammu,`` says Gupta. Mariam`s uncle points out it is ironical it is the police they seek now.

Only months ago, the sight of khaki-clad personnel would send shivers down their spine as they dreaded being picked up to reveal Latif`s whereabouts.

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vertex

we have had this exchange before. i know your views. i wont say i am okay with it, but i accept the reality that you have different views.

Amit:

You firget one thing. Even the hint of compromise is a sign of weakness to the Mullahs. Hence, no compromise is possible at all.

Only way out is to expand the kill ratio and also change the demographic balance. The latter unfortunately a week Indian government has not done but it is still a possibility.

Re:Urstruly#14

Since you think a lot on communal terms, let me explain it from that perspective. If you take a step back and look at the ground situation dispassionately, you will see that militarily the Kashmir situation is at a stalmete that is disadvantageous to muslims. The militants kill maximum 9-10 people every day, a lot of them muslim civilians who get caught in the crossfire, like grenades exploding at wrong places etc. After all, there are not many hindu civilians left in the valley. The army kills 9-10 militants every day on the averge, who are all muslim. Either way, a lot more muslims are dying there and getting wounded than hindus.

On top of this, India has virtually finished fencing the LOC and Mushy is under severe pressure from US. So the militancy cannot accelerate any more, it can either continue this way or decelerate over time because of reduction in resources to sustain it. India has resources - money and manpower - to keep going indefinitely. So relentless militancy only means meaningless death for a lot of muslims and a few hindus. In addition, you have the blowback into Pakistan, which you are well aware of, where even your President and Corp Commanders are getting targeted. Economically, Kashmiris and Pakistanis are suffering as well, which means more muslim suffering.

Bottom line, is that militancy does not guarantee success by any means. For every Afghanistan success (with strong US backing), there is the Palestinian failure. Basically these kinds of situations call for a compromise solution that everyone can live with, because neither side can accept complete defeat. You can either negotiate cleverly and get most of what you wanted or you can keep fighting meaninglessly. Given the demographics in Kashmir which is all muslim controlled anyway and given improving Indo-Pak relations in general, it is not too difficult to negotiate a reasonably favorable solution from the muslim perspective.

wow... looks like I`m late to the party and there`s blood all over the floor (cf. the exchange between arjun_m and urstruly)

the chowk banner says ``unflinching idealism``
and it`s idealism that seems to have caused the most deaths in history...
(or is it idealism manipulated by commercial interest, until someone decided that he could sell enlightened greed and self-interest as an ideology in itself too... and then there was the inevitable backlash in the form of communism... but that`s for some other discussion...)

among the ideologues I found here, only four are not frothing at the mouth... do you like being manipulated? when will you think for yourself?

for starters: can you justify nationalism? have you read even one of the many, many articles on the theoretical basis and the historical evolution of this most nebulous of organising institutions? if nowhere else, then on chowk itself? darn, now I’m hectoring too...

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Beena Sarwar, thanks so much. This is new information - one keeps hearing things like the ``human fallout``, the ``refugees``... but to actually have first-hand testimony is valuable information on the changing social dynamics in the area.

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very typical ``debating`` point regarding minority muslims wanting secularism and majority Muslims wanting shariah. Yet, what if it`s true? Is this really the case, or just a perception? If perception, whose? If not, it would be interesting to sit down the campaigners of both positions and see them argue it out.

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(first foray into the heart of darkness... let`s see what the natives do to me...)

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Amit

Pakistan and Muslims will not shut up as long as India is oppressing the people of Kashmir through a passive but lethal process of genocide. It is un-acceptable to us as human beings. With your post, you sound like a genetic anamoly to me but personally I think that the military solution is the only solution to the problem of Kashmir and it is working quite effectively for both India and Pakistan. For India it is working because with 700000 strong army stationed in occupied territory and incarcerating a whole nation behind fence is the only option that India has to keep its occupation. For Paksitan, the military solution is working because an unrelenting support to the freedom fighters is the only way to change the status quo. When hindu does not give a damn to the UN resolution then please explain to me why in the world he would agree on changing the status quo unless its arms is twisted thru an unrelenting militancy and freedom struggle. Militant freedom struggles always win, no matter how long it takes. The history of world attests to this fact. So India has two options at hand at this time - exit honorably or you will be kicked out. But pretty soon India will be left with only one option and you know damn well, which one.

ankit,

Nor those who kill in the name of their country.

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Re:Urstruly#7

Instead of just verbally dueling and complaining all the time, why doesn`t Pakistan take some concrete steps on this whole matter? As of now, the APHC is still disunited, with Geelani singing one tune and others singing some other tune. Pakistan can use its leverage and have APHC and other disenchanted Kashmiris speak with one voice. Then they can demand assembly level elections supervised by UN observers. Jinnah and Mujib had both proved themselves via elections in 1946 and 1970. Let the APHC prove itself that it truly represents Kashmiris and that its agenda has popular support.

At the same time, India and Pakistan can start negotiating seriously. Let Pakistan propose some alternatives besides plebiscite. Many people have voiced solutions like quasi-independence, joint sovereignity etc. There are enough creative people around who can come up with a Northern Ireland type solution. At the right time, the proven APHC can enter the negotiation process. Finally the compromise solution can be voted upon in a referendum held under UN auspices.

The point is that Pakistan wants to change the status quo. Fine. There is a constructuve process to do that. Pakistan can take some initiative to change it instead of just complaining all the time.

a moving writeup

as the title aptly says:
everyone has lost in kashmir. but those who kill in the name of god cant see reason.

Beena,
I`ve seen the film, and this is an excellent write up of it. As you wrote, one can`t help empathizing with the women whose stories are presented.

I think ``Autumn`s Final Country`` is a strong attempt at narrowing in on the experiences of victims - which is often lost in the debate around the Kashmir issue. And in focusing on women, the film presents a side that is too often overlooked when conflict is studied.

For more on the experiences of women in war, see some of the publications and documentaries produced by the ICRC`s (International Committee of the Red Cross) Women and War project at

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList2/Focus:Women_and_war?OpenDocument

dair ko Hindu kee musjid ko MussalmaaN ki talaash
kho gaiee iss khoj meiN insaaN ko insaaN ki talaash

in India the Hindutva Talibanis have been defeated by the secular democratic Hindus themselves -- and nobody else

..... in Kashmir -- Muslims have to re-learn to live with Hindus, Sikhs Christians and Buddhists....have to master the art and science of -- how to be Democratic -- and how to be Secular...not a difficult curriculum

Islamic Talibanism is no more in fashion........it`s dead

jo baichtay thay dawa-e dill vo dukaan apni brhaa gaye -- not in a million year there will be a Islami Hukoomat -- in the Muslim Valley......period

Oh Great, now we have Indian National Assembly on fire again. Lemme guess - the un-known arsonists who disppeared after the act were carrying Paksitani passports and ID cards.

Beena Sarwar

You should be ashamed of yourself. Just because now Muslims (according to you Mullahs) have taken over the helm to liberate Kashmir from oppression does not mean that you should give up your sense of judgement between right and wrong. Just because Mullah has taken up on a cause does not mean that the cause has now become wrong.

Lahola wila quawwat.

re: this article
The same old story.
Where muslim are in a majority, there is always trouble if they are surrounded by people of other religions. Islam has not reconciled to other religions. What is happening in Kashmir is not unexpected.
Where muslims are in a minority, they want a secular govt!
Talk of hypocrisy.
Sridhar

Stories like these have turned me away from religion!!

I used to believe in God!

God did not create us!! But we created God because we wanted something bigger then us.

Now! In the same God`s name we turning into monster.

Atheist

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Beena Sarwar is a good writer. So it must be a good write up. But I don`t even read anything on Kashmir anymore.

Kashmir has basically turned into a war to death between Islam and Hinduism. Islam has cleansed Kashmir valley of Hinduism, as it did earlier the area occupied by Pakistan.

The question is - will Hindus hand over the Kashmiri land too to Islam or will they stand up and fight back to preserve what they have.

Two very different systems with two very different outlooks to history. It will be interesting to see what happens.

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