International Law: Applicability and Real Politik in the Middle East

`...forgot to take back.` What a convenient excuse for the miserable lack of bravery on the part of the Indian Army. Remember how mujahideen and SSG commandos stole your land from you and rained down heavy mortars and artillery on your heads for three months. HA! HA! Did your Army `forget` to fight then also? The BBC reported at one stage that so many dead Indian soldiers were coming back that there was not enough coffins to place them in. Cojones? Ha. You forget that Pakistans army is a fraction of the Indian army, yet dared to sneak into your territory and fight your soldiers. If India has `cojones` it would have fought Pakistan after the staged attack on the Parliament, where they found `terrorists` with Pakistani passports! hahahaa. You`re not fooling anyone `Arjun`.

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#52 by taqat-e-parvaaz

have you read a book by Bahl called Bunker #13? you will love it. it has (fictinalized) description of cordon-and-search operations by indian army dogs (quote from the book), mass rapes and other HR violations. its a must read for every indian and pakistani. unfortunately its a very poorly writtern book.

also, does one fight an awac vs awac? how so, pls explain (not you, someone else with more expertize hopefully).

i was referring to the kargil ass kicking from a pakistani perspective my friend. i would rather drown than be an indian.
mr harish, if you are implying that pakistan has seen ethnic cleansing on the scale of gujrat and bombay than you`re severely deluded. i severely doubt that hindus in india are more unsafe than their muslim counterparts in india. pakistan will never see the rise of crazed fanatics like the RSS, the bajrang dal, and the shiv sena. sorry. never will hindus in pakistan be dragged out into the streets, beaten, and chopped into pieces. never in pakistan will hindu women be gang raped by muslim men and then stabbed repeatedly. never will pregnant women have their fetuses ripped out and killed violently. hurray for india`s secularism! these are all incidents that have occured in the past gujrat. arundhati roy herself has raised these in her last book. so dont compare the status of minorities in pakistan to the minorities in india. your so called secular society is secular only around the edges. the core of it is filled with hate and hindutva. the `saffronization` of india. i only pray that the narendra modi rots in the pits of hell for eternity or is shot dead by one of his own guards while defecating.
rahul, sorry to say this but pakistan has maintained a principled stand on kashmir. its a known fact that pakistan has a considerable advantage in this situation, but has foolishly not been able to leverage it properly. The great Eqbal Ahmed once wrote, ``Its (India) moral isolation on kashmir is nearly total, and unlikely to be overcome by military means or political manipulation. New Delhi commands not a shred of legitimacy among Kashmiri Muslims.`` Probably the result of drunken indian troops savaging entire villages of kashmiris and raping young kashmiri women. when the kashmiris fight back its insurgency. insurgency!! in their own country. ha! who the hell is india fooling?

and yes, mrs. harish, the awacs that india bought were lousy. the only reason pakistan makes a fuss is in the hopes that the US panics and blocks the sale. and for your information, pakistan has just recently purchased a state of the art AWACS from Sweden. so stick that in your pipe and smoke it. and anyways, if india considers itself so technologically superior, it never forgets that any misadventure will result in a whole arsenal of Ghauris and Shaheens raining on the crowded and poverty stricken streets of calcutta and madras.

pakistan army got its ass kicked in kargil right? pakistani elite SSG commandos ran across the border covering their ass, right? eat this. never mess with the pakistan army.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll...show/724898.cms


`Key peak still in Pakistani occupation`

IANS[ MONDAY, JUNE 07, 2004 09:28:32 PM ]

CHANDIGARH : A former Indian Army officer has claimed a few strategic peaks in the Kargil sector of Jammu and Kashmir , including the crucial Point 5353, were still under occupation by Pakistani forces.

Brig. Surinder Singh, who was dismissed from service in June 2001, also claimed the Indian defence establishment had misled the country by claiming it had gained control on the peaks in Kargil, where India and Pakistan fought a brief border conflict in 1999.


Singh was sacked after being embroiled in a controversy with his superiors about alleged lapses and intelligence failures that led to Pakistan-backed intruders occupying strategic features along a 140-km stretch of the Line of Control.

He asserted he had proof that Point 5353, a hill in the Drass sector of north Kashmir , was still under Pakistani occupation.

``I have evidence of this claim including satellite images,`` he told reporters.

Singh said the alleged inaction of the defence and political leadership during the Kargil conflict was only the tip of the iceberg.

``The defence establishment had misled the nation about getting every intruder out of the Kargil sector. I can give proof of this to whatever committee the new government at the centre sets up,`` Singh said, noting he had written about the matter to Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee.

Singh said he had asked Mukherjee to order a thorough probe into the Kargil conflict and issues that were deliberately hidden by the previous coalition government led by the Bharatiya Janata Party.

there was a palestinian in my med school class.
i`m a bit shocked at this taqat, it`s very honest of him to admit his army got kicked in the bottom.
anyway, the israelis and palestinians are still going to be at it in 1000 years, bound to happen when each side thinks they are god`s special people and no hindu/buddhist types to give in for the sake of peace. what has happened to the palestinians is unfair but what happened to the jews for 2000 years was unfair too.

wajahat,

Look man, I`m a pucca UP wallah. All the nasty words and phrases you use in Punjabi were loaned from our region, so don`t even bother testing me on that. I`m not here to mouth obscenties and bring my parents to shame. If I can`t stand a person, I quietly pull out from the debate.

BTW, Do unto others what you want them to do unto you. When you abuse Hindus, you not only abuse me but my parents, my forefathers, my nation, and ironically your forefathers (unless you are from some Arabian or Turkish tribe). Don`t expect others to be sober when you fail to moderate your own posts.

#42 by wajahat

[Atleast we in Pakistan have now learned to live with our Hindu Minority, I think U have a very very long way to go with the most recent Ethnic Cleansing in Gujarat.]

That must surely rate as the joke of the day. Hindus in Pakistan numbered almost 10-12% immediately after the partition. Now it is around 1-2%. What happened to the rest? Now don`t tell me they migrated to India or they converted to Islam out of love for the great religion.

#42 by wajahat

[I will also ask you to put aside your primal, instinctual hate for the Muslim and try and avoid the Harish hyd type typical hindu Inferiority when it comes to Indian History and Mughal rule.]

You seem to be confused. I never mentioned the Mughal rule in my post. And we know enough Muslims in India not to hate them. Can you say the same for Pakistanis? And when you talk of others` inferiority, it in fact betrays your own inferiority.

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its time to move on.

any struggle for nationalism needs to take into consideration good of its and other people. palestinians tried (kind of) with the help of a ragtag pan-arabist (read ummaites) to beat iserael in war but failed. their excuse: loook a superpower supported them. well, think vietnam, where the superpower put its own million men on the ground but got beat. fact is arab nationalism was just not strong enough to fight the determined jews. why was the arab nation not strong? due to 400 years of rotten Ottoman kaliphate rule ruined the previously smart arabs, but that is a different story altogether.

the point is, palestinians got a lot of support from india, tons of them got indian govt scholarships to study in its most elite schools where harimau got rejected due to this resrvation, and offcourse UN general assembly hullagoolla. compared to such quality support, kuwaities treat palis only slightly above pakis. but palis are not a strong eough nation. arabs have given up on them. they got their chance with support from everyone, but could not do it (ie throw jews into the sea) so its time to move on instead of getting all of us melee.

bottomline, if you think you can challenge the alpha male, do so, but later please respect the hierarchy for sake of rest of the human tribe, who has issues like foraging for its food and lice infestation to rake care of. raising rabble again and again is simply irresposible.

#42

OK, let me be the first to admit this (for all the others hiding in the shadows :-)) I tried reading ``Orientalism`` by Said and couldnt make out head from tail. Why the heck does he lapse into French for pages at lenght and emerge without so much as a translation?

(Almost as bad a Nirad-babu, every Sanskit sloka is translated but nary a translation for the French or Latin he lapses into)

Yeah, yeah I know the jokes just write themselves ... so go on ....

The great secular lover-of-human rights pakistani comments:

[wahajat]
Atleast we in Pakistan have now learned to live with our Hindu Minority
[end-wahajat]

Really? If so, where are they? Not long ago the NYTimes carried an article about how terrorized the hindu community was in pakistan. One hindu family had named their daughter Elizabeth so that they could at least pass for Christian.

Pakistan was 30% hindu and sikh before 1947; it is now under 3% hindu and sikh. In the enclosed table you will see the relative proportions of each community in India over time. From 9.84% muslim in 1961, India has gone to 11.67% muslim in 1991. I believe the current figures (from 2001 census) are around 12.1%.

And what do you learn from that, oh, great protector of minorities??? My guess is NOTHING.

http://hdrc.undp.org.in/resources/gnrl/ThmticResrce/PopnDmgphy/P_M_%20Kulkarni-2002.htm

Year/ Period
Religion All
Hindu
Muslim
Christian
Sikh
Buddhist
Jain

Population $ (in thousands)

1991
838,584
687,647
101,596
19,640
16,260
6,388
3,353

Percentage Share*

1991
100.00
82.41
11.67
2.32
1.99
0.77
0.41

1981
100.00
83.09
10.88
2.45
1.96
0.71
0.48

1971
100.00
83.51
10.37
2.56
1.94
0.70
0.49

1961
100.00
84.27
9.84
2.41
1.83
0.73
0.47

Harish Hyd

``We all remember what happened to the Hindus in Pakistan post-1947, and what is still happening to them in Bangladesh. And if you still have the gall to say this, you are either not from this planet or an outright liar.``

Listen pal, Enough of the serial crying card, Partition was a mutual pandaemonium, with terrible and unforgivable inhumanity from both sides of the divide. Atleast we in Pakistan have now learned to live with our Hindu Minority, I think U have a very very long way to go with the most recent Ethnic Cleansing in Gujarat. So please save your breath and stop playing this outdated partition card.

Rahulmal

``I`ve not read Edward Said, but I know he was a liberal (euphemism for leftist). These people are adept at spreading canards, but I`d like to read `Orientalism` whenever I can get my hands on it.``

I am going to try and ignore your ignorance and blatant labelling without prior knowledge of a Edward Said, as amateur laptop warriors like yourselves have a natural tendancy to that. But I would recommend that you read Orientalism, and really get a sense of the Non-political academic nature of that great literary work. I will also ask you to put aside your primal, instinctual hate for the Muslim and try and avoid the Harish hyd type typical hindu Inferiority when it comes to Indian History and Mughal rule. Edward Said was a phenomenal man, and one of the true Benchmarks of Arab Literary genius after Khalil Gibran in the last century.

In response to this, if you do decide to act like the average Indian contributor to this site and come out with the atypical swearing, keep it directed at me and not Edward Said, would that be too much to expect off you?