International Law: Applicability and Real Politik in the Middle East

wajahat,

Palestine being a peaceful land before 20th century is another of those myths, blatant lies that are as divorced from reality as lies can be. How about Crusades, how about Saladin? Were these wars fought in South-Asia?

Jews lived in harmony with Arabs like Paki Hindus live in harmony with Muslims in today`s Pakistan...as if there are a plethora of options.

I agree that coming of Ashkenazi Zionist Jews from Europe was bad, but not worse than coming of assortment of Turks, Persians and Arabs in India. Their progeny divided the nation, took their pound of flesh and now preach against dividing nations on the basis of religion. If clock shouldn`t be turned back by 2 millennia, what makes you think it can be turned back by 5 decades? The Hindus swallowed the bitter pill of Islamic exclusivism. That you choose not to recognize Israel founded on the same notion of exclusive right to land of a religious community reeks of double standards.

``The displacement of Millions of Muslims was a ethnic cleanising excercise``, just replace Muslims with Hindus and change the area from middle-east to Pakistan...I bet you won’t like the sentence unless you want to say that ethnic cleansing is a bad thing only when it happens to Muslims.

The demographic reality is a joke, a reminder of the mob mentality that appears a panacea to all problems until you are on the wrong side of the mob.

Mukhlis has posted some figures about Israeli army/militia in `48. So, 600,000 settlers were able to field an army twice the size of armies of 60 million Arabs...doesn`t show the Arabs in a very good light.

``But I am somehow always surprised by the Inhumanity of our Indian Neighbours on the Paletine issue`` This is a huge insinuation. What makes you think we are insensitive...who gave Arafat our highest civilian award...who admits Palestinian students in our universities, professional institutes and colleges...who votes in favour of all resolutions against Israel? As for diplomatic relations, Jordan ruled by Hashemites who claim descent from your Prophet Mohammed has full relations with Israel, same with Egypt and Morocco. Even your dear General salivates at the prospect of friendly ties with Israel.

#32 by echoboom

Man, are you Afghan or is that the notorious pan-Islamic/Ummah thingy? Jeez....just when will the Pakis wake up?

very well, rahul. but that doesnt change the fact that under the BJP india`s foreign policy toward the israeli-palestinian conflict saw a complete reversal. india completely sold out in exchange for a lousy AWACS system based on 1980`s technology and limited help during the kargil ass-kicking. pakistan has maintained that it is willing to consider a change in ties. musharraf has repeated that he will not negotiate with israel until it finds a just solution, one based on 242 and 338 no doubt. and yes, the only time that jews lived peacefully alongside muslims was under muslim rule, as in the case of islamic spain and later the ottoman turks. we all see now what happens when those roles are reversed.
moreover, your comparison of muslim rule in south asia and israeli occupation of palestine is disturbing. perhaps you should read more edward said and joseph massad. i cannot recall incidents of hindus under muslim rule being treated as third rate citizens, as having their homes demolished because muslims believe that the land was given to them by God, or being caged into their villages at night (yes, a palestinian town, is actually locked from the outside by israeli defence forces at night). and please dont forget that the Crusades were wars thrust upon the muslims, not wars of aggression. your detachment from historical truths shows your knowledge to be that of a high schooler, at best. i would recommend you separate fact from fiction before you decide to post.

Taqat e Parvez:

``i cannot recall incidents of hindus under muslim rule being treated as third rate citizens``

Maybe you need to read about Aurangzeb. Maybe you need to read about the Governer of Sirhind who had the 6 and 9 year old sons of Guru Gobind Singh walled alive because they would not accept Iislam. I could go on and on but that is not the point.

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taqat,

The last post was getting too big...here is the remainder

``Crusades were wars thrust upon the muslims`` I never said Muslims invited Franks, ``chal do-do haath ho jaaye``. This was in response to Wajahat`s claim that Jerusalem was peaceful before European Jews came there.


``musharraf has repeated that he will not negotiate with israel until it finds a just solution, one based on 242 and 338 no doubt`` Brother, this one is straight from Paki book of diplomatic conduct. First, you decide as to what is a just and peaceful solution, and then thrust the responsibility of achieving this on the other party. Isn`t that what your general says, ``peace blah blah as per the wishes of Kasmiri people..blah blah..LoC not acceptable``. This is called negotiating with closed minds.

``i would recommend you separate fact from fiction before you decide to post`` if you could separate facts and fiction in my earlier posts on this board, I`ll happily eat crow. I respect people with better knowledge even if they are my worst enemies. My knowledge of religion is based on Ramayana, where Ram asks Laxman to get knowledge from Ravana, if you know what I mean.

``your detachment from historical truths shows your knowledge to be that of a high schooler`` I don`t like to get personal when discussion is serious. But yes, you got the high-school part right :-) I didn`t study History as part of curriculum after X, but I read a lot. As I said earlier, point me to mistakes and I`ll apologize, indulge in rhetoric, I`ll post a rebuttal.

#35 by taqat-e-parvaaz

[but that doesnt change the fact that under the BJP india`s foreign policy toward the israeli-palestinian conflict saw a complete reversal.]

Just why should India be sympathetic to the Palestinian cause? And what difference can India`s support make? When Israel routinely defies the world`s lone superpower and its biggest supporter, what chance does India stand? India, under the BJP took a most pragmatic decision to engage Israel and reap the benefits of some of the technological advances that country had made. India owes it more to its own people than to the Palestinians. Pakistan maybe wedded to the cause of `oppressed` Muslim peoples everywhere (Palestinians, Chechens, Kashmiris, etc.), but just why should India do the same?

And in case you don`t know, just the other day India voted against Israel at the UN.

[india completely sold out in exchange for a lousy AWACS system based on 1980`s technology and limited help during the kargil ass-kicking.]

If the AWACS were as lousy as you say they are, why did Pakistan make such a huge fuss when India announced its decision to purchase the system? I`ll let you in on a secret. It maybe lousy, but it is better than anything Pakistan has or will have in the near future. And that is what matters. It has also gained tremendously from Israel`s anti-terrorism capabilities. Also, the hand-held thermal imager that India procured helped it drastically cut down casualties among the security forces and brought the terrorists to their knees. And these are only a few examples of how India has benefited.

[i cannot recall incidents of hindus under muslim rule being treated as third rate citizens, as having their homes demolished because muslims believe that the land was given to them by God....]

We all remember what happened to the Hindus in Pakistan post-1947, and what is still happening to them in Bangladesh. And if you still have the gall to say this, you are either not from this planet or an outright liar.

taqat,

It would be naive on my part not to accept that there was a pro-Israeli tilt in India`s foreign policy during BJP regime (NDA, if you will). Part of the problem stems from the jaundiced view of Islam vs rest that some Sanghis share with Likudians. Even during illegitimate invasion of Iraq, there were voices that supported Indians troops going to Iraq and doing the American dirty work on our erstwhile ally Saddam. Thank God, they voice were drowned. I don`t think Congress would have entertained Sharon in India.

Having said that, there are other Indians who don`t share fanatical world-view of SOME Sanghis (some in CAPS to bring out the fact that not all Sanghis think alike), yet want India to align more closely with Israel rather then Palestinians. Reasons are more related to getting of the moral high horse and introducing more pragmatism in foreign policy, the same pragmatism that makes India get cosy with US.

Trust me pal, we don`t need to learn tackling of terrorism from Israelis. Despite their overwhelimg superiority, they have not had a good record. As for AWACS, I don`t think that can change India`s foreign policy. We are getting the weapons, they are getting the money. Since we`ve guaranteed that we`ll not share the technology with Iranians or Chinese, US and Israel are OK with the deal.

I`ve not read Edward Said, but I know he was a liberal (euphemism for leftist). These people are adept at spreading canards, but I`d like to read `Orientalism` whenever I can get my hands on it. Never heard of Massad...another Christian Arab??

`` i cannot recall incidents of hindus under muslim rule being treated as third rate citizens`` Buddy, you are right!! We were just treated as second-rate citizens not thrid-rate. Jizyah was imposed, temples were razed to the ground, women were raped, men beheaded and you know all the other things I`ll add, so I`ll not bother.

I read a funny comment on The Friday Times by Fatima Raja
``There is Babur...his memoirs reveal a genuinely nice person...and his attitude towards the idols of India to which he objected not on religious but on aesthetic grounds. `` Give me a break!! If I write history of Mody saying that he removed lousy looking Muslims in beards on aesthetic grounds, would you chew on that?

After reading this, tell me why I shouldn`t support Sharon`s boys who remove stinking homes of Pales on aesthetic grounds :-)

I know fools when I spot them, these Israeli blokes are no better than their enemies across the separation fence. Whenever someone says they`ve God`s original software, I know he is spamming.

Rahulmal

``I`ve not read Edward Said, but I know he was a liberal (euphemism for leftist). These people are adept at spreading canards, but I`d like to read `Orientalism` whenever I can get my hands on it.``

I am going to try and ignore your ignorance and blatant labelling without prior knowledge of a Edward Said, as amateur laptop warriors like yourselves have a natural tendancy to that. But I would recommend that you read Orientalism, and really get a sense of the Non-political academic nature of that great literary work. I will also ask you to put aside your primal, instinctual hate for the Muslim and try and avoid the Harish hyd type typical hindu Inferiority when it comes to Indian History and Mughal rule. Edward Said was a phenomenal man, and one of the true Benchmarks of Arab Literary genius after Khalil Gibran in the last century.

In response to this, if you do decide to act like the average Indian contributor to this site and come out with the atypical swearing, keep it directed at me and not Edward Said, would that be too much to expect off you?

Harish Hyd

``We all remember what happened to the Hindus in Pakistan post-1947, and what is still happening to them in Bangladesh. And if you still have the gall to say this, you are either not from this planet or an outright liar.``

Listen pal, Enough of the serial crying card, Partition was a mutual pandaemonium, with terrible and unforgivable inhumanity from both sides of the divide. Atleast we in Pakistan have now learned to live with our Hindu Minority, I think U have a very very long way to go with the most recent Ethnic Cleansing in Gujarat. So please save your breath and stop playing this outdated partition card.

The great secular lover-of-human rights pakistani comments:

[wahajat]
Atleast we in Pakistan have now learned to live with our Hindu Minority
[end-wahajat]

Really? If so, where are they? Not long ago the NYTimes carried an article about how terrorized the hindu community was in pakistan. One hindu family had named their daughter Elizabeth so that they could at least pass for Christian.

Pakistan was 30% hindu and sikh before 1947; it is now under 3% hindu and sikh. In the enclosed table you will see the relative proportions of each community in India over time. From 9.84% muslim in 1961, India has gone to 11.67% muslim in 1991. I believe the current figures (from 2001 census) are around 12.1%.

And what do you learn from that, oh, great protector of minorities??? My guess is NOTHING.

http://hdrc.undp.org.in/resources/gnrl/ThmticResrce/PopnDmgphy/P_M_%20Kulkarni-2002.htm

Year/ Period
Religion All
Hindu
Muslim
Christian
Sikh
Buddhist
Jain

Population $ (in thousands)

1991
838,584
687,647
101,596
19,640
16,260
6,388
3,353

Percentage Share*

1991
100.00
82.41
11.67
2.32
1.99
0.77
0.41

1981
100.00
83.09
10.88
2.45
1.96
0.71
0.48

1971
100.00
83.51
10.37
2.56
1.94
0.70
0.49

1961
100.00
84.27
9.84
2.41
1.83
0.73
0.47

#42

OK, let me be the first to admit this (for all the others hiding in the shadows :-)) I tried reading ``Orientalism`` by Said and couldnt make out head from tail. Why the heck does he lapse into French for pages at lenght and emerge without so much as a translation?

(Almost as bad a Nirad-babu, every Sanskit sloka is translated but nary a translation for the French or Latin he lapses into)

Yeah, yeah I know the jokes just write themselves ... so go on ....

its time to move on.

any struggle for nationalism needs to take into consideration good of its and other people. palestinians tried (kind of) with the help of a ragtag pan-arabist (read ummaites) to beat iserael in war but failed. their excuse: loook a superpower supported them. well, think vietnam, where the superpower put its own million men on the ground but got beat. fact is arab nationalism was just not strong enough to fight the determined jews. why was the arab nation not strong? due to 400 years of rotten Ottoman kaliphate rule ruined the previously smart arabs, but that is a different story altogether.

the point is, palestinians got a lot of support from india, tons of them got indian govt scholarships to study in its most elite schools where harimau got rejected due to this resrvation, and offcourse UN general assembly hullagoolla. compared to such quality support, kuwaities treat palis only slightly above pakis. but palis are not a strong eough nation. arabs have given up on them. they got their chance with support from everyone, but could not do it (ie throw jews into the sea) so its time to move on instead of getting all of us melee.

bottomline, if you think you can challenge the alpha male, do so, but later please respect the hierarchy for sake of rest of the human tribe, who has issues like foraging for its food and lice infestation to rake care of. raising rabble again and again is simply irresposible.

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#42 by wajahat

[Atleast we in Pakistan have now learned to live with our Hindu Minority, I think U have a very very long way to go with the most recent Ethnic Cleansing in Gujarat.]

That must surely rate as the joke of the day. Hindus in Pakistan numbered almost 10-12% immediately after the partition. Now it is around 1-2%. What happened to the rest? Now don`t tell me they migrated to India or they converted to Islam out of love for the great religion.

#42 by wajahat

[I will also ask you to put aside your primal, instinctual hate for the Muslim and try and avoid the Harish hyd type typical hindu Inferiority when it comes to Indian History and Mughal rule.]

You seem to be confused. I never mentioned the Mughal rule in my post. And we know enough Muslims in India not to hate them. Can you say the same for Pakistanis? And when you talk of others` inferiority, it in fact betrays your own inferiority.

wajahat,

Look man, I`m a pucca UP wallah. All the nasty words and phrases you use in Punjabi were loaned from our region, so don`t even bother testing me on that. I`m not here to mouth obscenties and bring my parents to shame. If I can`t stand a person, I quietly pull out from the debate.

BTW, Do unto others what you want them to do unto you. When you abuse Hindus, you not only abuse me but my parents, my forefathers, my nation, and ironically your forefathers (unless you are from some Arabian or Turkish tribe). Don`t expect others to be sober when you fail to moderate your own posts.