Army Action in Wana and Our Responsibility

#33

Urstruly, has it escaped your attention that this fight is not to target Pakistanis but the arabs, the Uzbecks, the Chechens and various other jihadi riff-raff being sheltered by these tribals. What do you expect to happen when ALL reasonable requests to first stop patronizing them and second to get rid of them falls on deaf ears?

You wax lyrical about the senate. This is the same institution that lives in Musharaff`s hip pocket. You expect these mice to roar like lions?

``The constitution of Pakistan`` -- Please give me a break!!!!!

#30 by arjun_m

Yes - right on. Misfortune of the criminals is good news for the world. Never go soft on criminals and their supporters until they are completely vanquished.

Would you feel happy when a serial killer gets caught, tangled in his own web of deception ... or do you feel sorry for him, empthize with him?

Tough moral question, for some. For others - good riddance - god is great.

Why should I feel for pakis who have been plotting my death by ``thousannd cuts`` since forever?

And furthermore under international law, the rulings of International Court of Justice on war crimes, International Criminal Court and Geneva Convention the excuse that ``I was just following orders`` is not acceptable. No war criminal has ever been excused using this line of defense. Pakistan is a signatory to all these international forums. Therefore, I would appeal to the good conscience of all Paksitanis to condemn this attrocity on your fellow citizens before another indignity befells on our nation. Remember, not every one is as benevelont and forgiving as Bangladeshis.

Dear Several People


In case you are forgetting, the Na-Pak Army has absolutely no moral right or legal authority to point their guns at Pakistani citizens. The constitution of Paksitan gives protection to the life and property of all human beings. This is extra judicial murder, a genocide, a war crime that Na-Pak fauj is committing against the people whom it is supposed to protect. Have we given peace a chance?. How could we, when all politicians, journalists, humaitarian workers and religious leadres are banned from entering the tribal areas. Neither senate nor national assembly has approved or even discussed this genocide aka ``operation``. The constitution charters such an action only through police and perhaps rangers, otherwise, parliament has to approve this murder to be legalized. Na Pak fauj is using gun-ship helicopters, cannons, tanks, and laser guided cruise missiles to kill women and children and destroy mosques and schools. That is the reason every NaPak fauji who is waging a war against his fellow citizens is a war criminal and a kafir, for he is waging this war on behest of kafirs. Therefore, anyone who supports this murder even with words is a kafir and his social boycott is incumbent on every Muslim.


In case you are already forgetting that the Rogue nations like US and Britian have recently destroyed Iraq citing the reason that saddam was killing his own people (it is another story that he was killing his own people at the behest of these very rogue nations). And now these rogue nations are jumping like monkeys on the issue of Darfur while it was them who armed the people of Darfur and incited them to wage a war against Khartum. Please explain to me why this illegal and immoral war that Na Pak fauj has launched on its own people is any different.

People! Remember if you want Pakistan to be a law abiding constitutional state then you have to protect even those, from the murderous state machinery, whom you hate the most. That is the reason, while I hate genocidal maniacs of MQM with a passion I have always raised voice in favor of them to protect them from murderous state machinery. Remember you have the ultimate power to do the right thing and not the gun totting criminal of na pak fauj. Do the right thing. Raising your voice against oppression is also Jihad.

Mog
//...The influx of refugees from POK into J&K has already started, and from what I hear on the grapevine, is about to commence in Thar/Sindh towards Rajasthan/Gujarat..//

That`s news to me. But I won`t be surprised. thousands of muslims are sneaking into india from Bdesh everyday - the same country they left 50 years ago because they couldn`t live with hindoos ..... Man, these people are crazy.

Anyway - I don`t mind refugees as long as the criminal enterprise in pakistan is dissolved completely.

And yes - I am satisfied and relieved that the pakis are finally getting their just deserts, because otherwise they would continue their criminal activities forever - harming India and world at large. These people must bear the maximum pain from the blowback - that`s what they deserve. They must learn it the hard way - world will be a safer place after that.

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``Family`s `deserter` shame lifted``

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3933183.stm

Why has the Pakistani army abandoned norms of civilized conduct?

AnIndian/17, I agree with your reasoning.

BUT.

An unstable and dissolving Pakistan next door to North & West India is not good news for us in North & West India. Something like East Pakistan/Bangladesh/1970-71 was not good news for East India. I mean, here is Kolkata, it took almost 20+ years to recover from those ravages next door.

The influx of refugees from POK into J&K has already started, and from what I hear on the grapevine, is about to commence in Thar/Sindh towards Rajasthan/Gujarat.

From history, one learns that religion ceases being the issue after approximately 48 hours of hunger & thirst, especially if there are women & children along.

We are surely not jumping up and down in joy in India at the situation facing our neighbours. But we surely need to be concerned. And express it too, as well as take positions. India is just about coming out of the morass of the past 200 - 300 years, and now this again?

Agreed with you only with a point the Poor soilders will only do what they are asked to do.. and doing bycott with soilders and their families will be a foolish suggesstion.
As far as threat from Militants, I don`t agree, these militants were always working for pakistan and proved their loyality with pakistan many times. They are not threat to Pakistan, infact the threat is the way we are treating them!!

#13-Urstruly
Bravo!
You must be very proud of acting in such a childish way.
What do you think are soldiers are to do? They joined the military to serve the country from all possible threats and the threats might be from both external or internal sources. And what do you know about Wana and Pakistan for that matter? You come to Pakistan once a year and make judgements? And Harish is right, these militants are a huge threat to Pakistan. I hate Musharraf for a lot of things but if it wasn`t for him, this country would have been Talibanized. Ofcourse, you won`t be affected, sitting in your cosy hole in States. But our lives in Pakistan would have been miserable, not to forget that the very existence of Pakistan would have been at stake.
Grow up. Just boycotting your military relatives is not the solution to the problem. Unless Mush happens to be your uncle!
And the last thing that the families of the soldiers need is a social boycott! Are you really mad to suggest this?Or is this what they are doing in States with the families of soldiers in Iraq?

#24 by taqat-e-parvaaz

[as for you harish, keep your low IQ thoughts to yourself.]

Man, mine is low IQ. Yours is no IQ.

[ pakistans tribal area is still extremely loyal to the country. why dont you send your brave Army to NWFP to fight these hardened fighters? that would be the ass kicking of the century! hahahaaa...]

Oh yeah, the Paki tribals who consider themselves Afghan and have more sympathies for their cousins across the Durand Line than Pakis are extremely loyal to their country.....Afghanistan. Knowing what the Indian Army did to the Paki Army (3 wars, Siachen and Kargil...ass-whupped each time)...I`m sure they are much more competent than their Paki counterparts and can do a damn good job of it, if they ever got a chance to fight the tribals.

Am I the only one or is there someone else too who thinks this taqat-e-parvaaz chap is none other than the famous `Assistant Editor` Omar Qureshi??

#17 by AnIndian

Take it easy pal - pakis are not going die enmass because somebody said ``I told you so``.

Besides, sometimes it`s fun to pr!ck a pompous paki a$$.

...and it is the US that is a savage nation?? HAHAHA!

way to make such a strong comeback stuka! as for you harish, keep your low IQ thoughts to yourself. pakistans tribal area is still extremely loyal to the country. why dont you send your brave Army to NWFP to fight these hardened fighters? that would be the ass kicking of the century! hahahaaa...

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Important questions have been raised throughout this inquisitive article. Perhaps a method of returning the favor to any such author who takes the pain could be by contributing one’s two cents worth to the debate and try & help in reaching for a perspective, however lopsided that contribution may be due to inherent biases in all of us. One such questions in the article on situation in Pakistan, is;

***How did things come to this?***

So what is ‘this’?. As per the article ‘this’ is the treatment of Wana residents at the hands of Pak army. The similarity of methods to those adopted by US army in Afghanistan and Iraq is the ironic reality which looks to be as one of the motivations behind the article (and perhaps should also serve as a mirror to people who by default favor the status quo due to its false impression of calm). Acceptance of Pak army’s conduct while condemnation of ‘others’ being the expose’. Also by extension this question can easily be considered to cover the overall geopolitical realities that Pakistan faces today and has faced in the last few decades.

And now the attempt at answering the question; successive governments in Pakistan, surely like others elsewhere, have convinced themselves in past or were convinced by circumstance/others to make reactionary or short-term decisions, and kept on justifying them in light of ‘broader national interests’. In recent past some examples are the Islamisation of society (needed for Afghan war?), the support to Kashmir freedom struggle (right when seen in light of morality? wrong when seen in hindsight due to so far unsuccessful results from Kashmiri perspective?), acceptance of Taliban (acceptable as instrument of peace in war torn Afghanistan?), abandonment of Taliban (post 9/11 necessity? who wants to side with losers? need to save own ass?), ‘abandonment’ of Kashmir cause (again a post 9/11 reality?). Ok, so now is it any wonder Pakistan has a disillusioned segment in its populace which has been fed on doctrines of now abandoned initiatives and causes? And which now acts the angry lava under the land bounded by a polity called Pakistan, with sporadic eruptions from Karachi to Peshawar.

An easy picking while identifying a common thread here, is the Pak army. But before we go further and declare army the raison d’etre of every ill in Pakistan, its important to note that its neither my intention nor seems like the purpose of Mukhlis’ article, since that I suspect will limit the scope of article. May be it is relevant to note that a separate stream of thought can perhaps be developed through which the constant presence of army in Pakistan’s political/civilian history can be justified or at least rationalized by Pakistan`s ever-present belligerent neighbor to east and the regional ambitions of greater powers in the background.

What Mukhlis also laments, and very importantly, in my opinion is the reluctance on the assumption of responsibility by all of ‘us’. This ‘impotence’ comes from many a reasons, an important amongst which could be the disempowerment of successive generations of Pakistanis (blame perhaps equally goes to inept politicians and impatient generals). I tend to read this as a continual failure of a society to produce leaders. So, we need leaders who learn the lessons from past and not repeat the mistakes. I repeat, politicians cannot be exempted from taking equal blame because it was they who were handed the torch and their leadership could have made the difference.

***Will we ever learn from our history?***

Yes, we will. Of course the irony of the situation is that ‘we’ will continue to make ‘new’ mistakes in changing realities of world, philosophically speaking that is. And if education, empowerment etc. etc. are measures of anything then there is no blessed a place on earth than US. Now can anyone rationally say what a ‘democratic’ government in US has done post 9/11, benefited the world? (cant hide my frustration with what democracy is coming to be in the Land-of-the-Free)

The bottom line then regarding the debate at hand seems to me that we must not repeat the mistakes already made and paid for. Which for all purposes our beloved army seems to be doing and therefore then it is perhaps the call of times that we play our part of responsibility in forms and manners possible for us. Perhaps then Mukhlis has played out his, within his limitations.