The Company Bahadar

dost-mittar:128

(in good humour)

If you are, as you claim, a cerified Kaffir then either somebody gave it to you and you accepted [hence you recognised the authority] or you made it up yourself; in that case suspect.

MuDDatON booe-vafaa aae-gee buut-khaanON sey
OoD bUUN kay jalaa hai dil-e sozaaN mairaa.

The (idol-worshipping)* temples would , for a long long time, vouch about my devotion.
For it is my heart itself that I used to offer there, as a burning incense.

(suggesting to Allah: look at the record of my devotion and look what I gave-up for you. So be a little forgiving my Rabb);)



* is called Mushrik--Most ofthe pre-Islam Arabs were mushriks.

Kaffir: One who denys ANY deity. A complete non-believer in anyone but himself. The one who considers himself as a god. The ultimate dictator.

Fuzair #118

Informative but incomplete !

The Mongols and Turks are racially different people however through centuries cross-fertilization has taken place, which has blurred the racial boundries just as the similar process is taking place in Europe now.

Another important thing was the language and culture Persian dominated from Siberia in north to India in south, from borders of china in east to Austrian alps in the west.

Mongols weren’t invincible they were routed completely by Egptian mamalukes in Syria.

Dost-mitter#120

There was a bbc documentry titled storm from east about Mongols which showed they had some sort of local religion, and a deity named tengiri, not Buddhist.

Fuzair #118

Informative but incomplete !

The Mongols and Turks are racially different people however through centuries cross-fertilization has taken place, which has blurred the racial boundries just as the similar process is taking place in Europe now.

Another important thing was the language and culture Persian dominated from Siberia in north to India in south, from borders of china in east to Austrian alps in the west.

Mongols weren’t invincible they were routed completely by Egptian mamalukes in Syria.

Dost-mitter#120

There was a bbc documentry titled storm from east about Mongols which showed they had some sort of local religion, and a deity named tengiri, not Buddhist.

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132# deadrajput

thanks for query

Mongols were nomadic people without any literary language of their own, so they adopted Persian for official purposes, when pope sent his emissary begging them not to attack Christendom the letter he sent was in Persian. Even the name changiz khan is his adopted Persian name his Mongolian name was temujin.

Other empires Mughals Ottoman, Tatars and even the Sikhs adopted it as official language the reason you have Turkish maulana Rumi writing in Persian. The Ottomans also adopted Persian culture, one can see in old ottoman paintings governers in middle of Europe with flowing silk robes and turbans.

Just as pilgrim fathers fled England to America to escape religious persecution, many germans and Austrians fled to America because they thought Europe would be overrun by Ottomans.

In the modern era it’s English language and western culture that’s dominant, once it was latin.

Just as empires rise and fall so do languages.

aslam

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echoboom:
No, I do not consider myself to be god (leave that to Sai Baba!); I do not know if I believe in a God. But if I do, it is a Macro God, and not a Micro-God who keeps a running account of every act of yours and mine, including these interacts, to determine aakhrit or agla-janam.
I liked your verse. BTW, you might be interested in knowing that a giant urdu literary figure of India, Professor Jagan Nath Azad, has died. He was among the last of that once sizeable hindu breed who wrote urdu poetry. Indeed, he left a lucrative civil service career to indulge in this vocation and became a professor at Srinagar university. He was also the son of a famous urdu poet, Professor Trilok Chand Mehroom, from whom I had the privilege of receiving a few lessons.

echoboom:
No, I do not consider myself to be god (leave that to Sai Baba!); I do not know if I believe in a God. But if I do, it is a Macro God, and not a Micro-God who keeps a running account of every act of yours and mine, including these interacts, to determine aakhrit or agla-janam.
I liked your verse. BTW, you might be interested in knowing that a giant urdu literary figure of India, Professor Jagan Nath Azad, has died. He was among the last of that once sizeable hindu breed who wrote urdu poetry. Indeed, he left a lucrative civil service career to indulge in this vocation and became a professor at Srinagar university. He was also the son of a famous urdu poet, Professor Trilok Chand Mehroom, from whom I had the privilege of receiving a few lessons.

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dostmittar:136

Thanks for the double-lovefest.
``suntaa naheeN hooN baat `mukkarar` kahay baghair``.

About: Jaggan Naath Azaad.

I am really deeply saddened to here that.
Inna-Lilah-e v inna-ilahay-raajioun.

Janaab Azaad sey humaraa rishtaa Iqbal kay ta`aluq kay ilavaa , unn kaa maizbaan honay kaa bhee thhaa. So tilok chand mehroom kay shaagird honay kay naatay ubb humaari aap kee bhee rishtaydaari nikal aaee.

I consider myself priviledged that he (Azad) wrote about my family and myself in his memoirs. I am not sure if Iqbal Academy honoured him with Iqbal sumaan award or not. He being the most deserving than a whole lot others who received it. I was cajoling those responsible drawing up the list to give him the next one.

I was told BJP was not too keen because of his genuine ``tilt`` towards his ancestoral home, the VIP reception accorded to him by Zia, and his unpoiliticaly-correct stance on Iqbal. On the other side the progressive/congress types had their party-line.

khudaa-haafiz.

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(contd)
to aslam644 post.


And Maulana Rum was from Herat, now Afghanistan; then Khurasan a part of iran. He settled in Rum ( Rome--as the Turkey area was then called, constantinople being capital )
and from thence on: Maulana Rum

aslam644:
The farsi language was used only after halakoo khan had ransacked Baghdad. Farsi was the language recognised and understood by the Pope staff. In fact farsi was quite prevalent in euorope during early years of Christiandom because of manachesim being a significant religion.

Changez is really Jehan-gir , the chinese-ish or mongolish version. Jin/chin is universe in chinese as well. Real name in mongolian language Tamo-jin also means the same. Later on we see it in Taim-oor..a corruption of Mir which is earth in turkic-russian now also [space-station Mir!]

As far as the language of the army or horde of Changaiz khan is concerned it was, what else? You got it! Horde..or really Uhord--the language of the army. The army-headquarter in Turkey is still URDU (in roman letters). Now also used for hindvi--Our Urdu. As fuzair pointed out it was a multi-national army and this was the melting-pot language which emerged. Of course quite different than our hindvi/urdu of today. The word horde entered into english lexicon via Norway where it was originally adopted.

A similar situation developed in Afghanistan during the war with USSR. The multi-national mujahideen of arab, persian. pushto, urdu, hindi, and english background were laying the foundation of another kind of urdu.

Even today if one has a smattering of farsi , arabic, and rudimentary chinese one can hop-step-and jump pretty comfortably through these regions.

But again what to say about our education system.

``Look at us; we disfigured our own model-faces
Then there are those,who excel in painting portraits``

Turks and Mongols are the same people. They diverged at one time but then reconverged during the middle ages. In the East no sharp distinction was made between Turks and Mongols, they were considered to be two tribes belonging to one nation, Turan.

During Babur`s time Turks were considered to be a culturally sophisticated people and so to increase their prestige the Mughals called themselves `Turks`. Though strictly speaking the Mughals belonged to the Mongol not the Turkish branch of the Turani nation because their forefather Taimur was indisputably a Mongol.


Re some comments by Dost-Mittar. The fact that some Mughals took Rajput wives was by no means a sign of Rajput tolerance. The Rajputs were anything but tolerant. In the East, as you should know, giving wives to a member of another nation or tribe was and is considered humiliating and demeaning. And forcing the Rajasthanis to give their women as wives was the Mughal way of emasculating them and destroying their credibility in the eyes of the general populace.

Re: DR. Even in the highly tolerant time of Akbar Rajasthanis were never more than 10% of the Mughal Army. Their representation was even less in the reigns of the other Emperiors. You`re 50% figure is preposterous. The Turko-Mongol nobility on whom the Mughals relied would quite simply never have accepted that many non-Turks.

Echoboom,

What are your references for the widespread use of Persian by the Mongols? Certainly the Ilkhanate in Persia (that part of the Great Horde that stayed in Iran/Persia) went native very quickly but they were only a very small part. In any case, the Ilkhanate lasted for barely a century.

I would have thought that the language used by the Pope in his letter would have been Arabic. Many Christian scholars of the time knew Arabic since the greatest libraries in the world were in Moorish Spain and any true Christian intellectual knew both Latin AND Arabic (e.g., John of Seville). Many priests knew Arabic because many of the Greek works survived only in Arabic translation.

BTW, you really have to get a grip on yourself. You wrote:

``...many germans and Austrians fled to America because they thought Europe would be overrun by Ottomans.``

The last Ottoman threat to Europe was the Battle of Vienna in 1683 when the Ottomans, under the Grand Vizier Kara Mustafa, attempted to take Vienna. The second member of the Mustafa family to hold the post of Grand Vizier, Kara Mustafa`s was the last gasp of the Ottoman Empire. After being routed by Jan III Sobieski of Poland outside the gates of Vienna, the Ottoman Empire went into a long retreat and lost many of its most prosperous provinces to Austria and Russia. Kara Mustafa was executed by the Janissaries and Turkey rapidly became the ``Sick Man of Europe`` and had to be rescued by the British and the French from being gobbled up by Russia in the 1850s.

I don`t think there was much German and Austrian migration to America in the 1680s, period. There wasn`t much British migration to the Americas either. Your chauvinism is getting in the way of your ability to look at facts. The earlier siege of Vienna in 1526 was the one that really scared the Austrians since it seemed as if Suleiman the Magnificent might actually succeed in taking Vienna but the Austrians didn`t flee to the Americas then, just further west.

echoboom:
Kaafir se rishta qayam karne ka nateeja janate hain naa aap?:). Luckily for you, I was never a shagird of Prof. Mehroom, just attended a few of his urdu classes...


dionysus#143
I agree and had given ``capitulation`` as one of the reasons in my post.