Dev - The Anatomy of A Communal Carnage

#53 by pmishra2
//...How can we prevent this from happening? ...//

you can prevent this from happening only when you get your head out your a$$. First thing - make the police force independent and professional - no mo-fo ``home ministry`` controlling any police force.

This cr@p has been happening for years - they all have done it - laloos, commies, congress. But sanctimonious morons who are shedding tears now just let them go free - because they are ``secular``. Where was the outrage then? If the same outrage had been displayed when thousands of sikhs were killed by Rajiv`s goons - may be some corrective actions would have been taken .... Some institutionalized mechanisms would have been devised......Some reforms in security forces would have been implemented - which would have ultimately prevented all such events that happened down the line, including Gujrat riots.

But no - it was suppressed - the criminals were allowed to go free and/or made Prime Minister, no less. Which, at the least, encouraged mass-murderers like Modi - ``Hey - if Rajiv can do it and still be darling of the f*king country - then why can`t I do it.``

Of course - nobody here sees the connection - the inevitable downward slide when you did wink-wink at the very first time this kind of sh!t happened.

Now - you ask - what is the way forward? it`s simple really - what needs to be done. But who is going to do it? Laloo, commies and Jagdish Tytler - they all have blood in their hands - they are all criminals par excellence. Who is going cast the first stone?

Mark my word - 5 years down the line- the same thing will happen all over again. You are condmened to live like barbarians.

dost_mitter
``villages where the two communities are well-integrated, there is peaceful coexistence, as is the case where the numbers of either community is too small to pose a threat. ``

this is partially true. communities are peacful, and participate in commerce but are physically seggragated.

there have been several riots in small towns, specially with large muslim weaver communities like Bhiwandi, Maleguon, Jalgaon etc. mumbai on the other hand has witnessed only one communal riot (1992). mumbai is also mostly communally seggragated, it has muhallas of muslims, tamils, parsees, gujjus, bhaiyyas and so on.

satyawadi: what is the jain view on guj riots? ahmedabad has a very large jain population and they being pacifist, what is their view? is it part of the main-stream gujju view (if yes, feel free to spell it out) or it differs (how?)

Ashutosh Gandhi


It really doesn`t matter exactly where Modi was or wasn`t. I agree with you that calling karsevaks extremists is also wrong. MOst of them are innocent people with genuine faith etc. I even agree that some so-called ``human rights`` activists are the most shameless liars and propagandists.

The problem is simply this: how will India progress if we cannot get beyond this model of revenge killing of innocent people. It is no use saying that look Rajiv Gandhi and Tytler were as bad. OK, agreed, they were even worse than Modi!

But what does this say about us an Indians? The mass murders in Rwanda and Sudan say something about people who live in that region. What do events like gujarat, sikh killings, murder of hindus in Punjab, Tripura say about us? How can we prevent this from happening?

http://us.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/26rjd.htm
Alleged Al Qaeda terrorist joins RJD

Anybody bothered about this sh!t ! Anybody would ever write an article on casteiest massacres sponsored by RJD, Laloo and other ``secular`` criminals?

#47 by arjun_m
//...Let`s stay on topic here//

The topic is still the same, whether you talk about Modi, laloo, rajeev, commies -- all these folks have used state/non-state machinery to massacre people with abandon to further their own agendas. They are all criminals par excellence.

The mentality that readily acquits Rajeevs ,Laloos and commies for the same/similar crimes is a indeed a twisted one.

Don`t try to wiggle out of it. Don`t give us ``two wrongs don`t make things right`` BS. Of course it does not. Nail Modi - but don`t forget to Nail Laloo.

#45 by rsridhar on July 26, 2004 8:11am PT
Thanks for the link. I gone through the report.
Its wonderful for HRW to state that one BJP minister took the charge of police control room. Why cannot they name him/her? It would have give them greater authenticity if they did that.
Also, they somehow found out that the Hindu pilgrims returning from Ayodhya killed in godhra were kar-sevaks. There is nothing wrong in being kar-sevaks but it being karsevaks is potrayed as insidious. There were 16 children burned to death. Were they also karsevaks.
I find it hard to believe their claim that Godhra was not pre-planned while attack on muslims after godhra was pre-planned. Similary attack on Hindus by Muslims in Jamalpur were retaliatory but after-godhra were not retaliatory and was pre-planned by the state government.
This report says that charges were filed arbitrarily against muslims youths. Is that why police arrested 18,000 hindus against 4000 muslims.
The reports blame local newspaper for instigating violence. Also, this report somehow consist of attacks on christians. Many incidents of attack agains christians have been acts of rbbery gone astray. There were incidents where christians nuns were raped and quickly VHP/RSS/BJP were blamed for that and later it was found out that they were raped by converted tribals.
I would take the report with a pinch of salt. I hope you have not based your decision on this report only.

#46 by arjun_m on July 26, 2004 8:11am PT
Until post #37, people have accused Modi because the riots happened when he was a chief minister. Other than that no one were able to provide me any links to report including from english media. Except rshridhar provided me with the link for HRW websites. There are few fallacies in that report and specially saying that Godhra was not pre-planned while after godhra was pre-planned by government. Also, muslims attack on hinds were in retaliation but not the other way around.
My accusation against english media was more from my experience. The headlines, the report content are grossly against BJP. I will state you one example from TOI. The heading was ``Lallo makes BJP walk in sun`` while the news was actually that BJP were protesting Lallo being made railway minister. It seems english media has taken the task of defeating/misinforming public against BJP. This is not editorial section of news. I would expect news to reported without any prejudice by the reporter. And leave it up to me to decide.

Regarding rshridhars comment that since Modi was elected via ballot he should resign. Things go wrong because of inefficient bureacrat and politicians. Riots have happened before in many places in India. Why is this CM accused? I believe that a person could be given benefit of doubt atleast once as things get tangled a lot in India. Intermediate people like police officer who were spectators could be disciplined.

Until now there has been one link of HRW stating that Modi and gujarat government had planned killings of muslims even before godhra. I would like to know how many people on this board agree to this so called finding.

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re:#42 by stuka
Modi is the CM of a Gujarat. That puts him in a league way ahead of Tytler or Bhagat who, though senior leaders at the time, did not have such a big consittuency and were never as popular as Modi is. Modi is so popular in Gujarat among the hindutva crowd that BJP still hesitates to sack him even after it is becoming clear that his arrogance and hardcore values cost BJP many votes in the last elections.
Anyway, i do not see the point of this discussion. Regardless of who was senior or junior, Modi, Bhagat, Sajjan Kumar, Tytler all participated in mob killings but have never been touched. This makes a mockery of the whole democratic system.
Sridhar

re:#17 by Ashutosh_Gandhi
The complicity of the state govt during those riots is well documented.
http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Religion-communalism/2002/hrw.htm
Excerpts:
1. ``A key BJP State minister is reported to have taken over police control rooms in Ahmedabad on the first day of the carnage, issuing orders to disregard pleas for assistance from Muslims. Portions of the Gujarati language press meanwhile printed fabricated stories and statements openly calling on Hindus to avenge the Godhra attacks. In almost all of the incidents documented by Human Rights Watch the police were directly implicated in the attacks. At best they were passive observers, and at worse they acted in concert with murderous mobs and participated directly in the burning and looting of Muslim shops and homes and the killing and mutilation of Muslims. In many cases, under the guise of offering assistance, the police led the victims directly into the hands of their killers.``

2. Many of the attacks on Muslim homes and places of business also took place in close proximity to police posts. Panicked phone calls made to the police, fire brigades, and even ambulance services generally proved futile. Many witnesses testified that their calls either went unanswered or that they were met with responses such as: ``We don`t have any orders to save you``; ``We cannot help you, we have orders from above``; ``If you wish to live in Hindustan, learn to protect yourself``; ``How come you are alive? You should have died too``; ``Whose house is on fire? Hindus` or Muslims`?`` In some cases phone lines were eventually cut to make it impossible to call for help. Surviving family members have faced the added trauma of having to fend for themselves in recovering and identifying the bodies of their loved ones. The bodies have been buried in mass gravesites throughout Ahmedabad. Gravediggers testified that most bodies that had arrived- many were still missing-were burned and butchered beyond recognition.

3. Even as attacks continue, the Gujarat State administration has been engaged in a massive cover-up of the State`s role in the massacres and that of the Sangh parivar. Eyewitnesses file d numerous police First Information Reports (FIRs), the initial reports of a crime recorded by the police, that named local VHP, BJP, and Bajrang Dal leaders as instigators or participants in the attacks. Few if any of these leaders have been arrested as the police, reportedly under instructions from the State, face continuous pressure not to arrest them or to reduce the severity of the charges filed. In many instances, the police have also refused to include in FIRs the names of perpetrators identified by the victims.

Read the full report to learn the level of atrocities perpetrated by this evil incarnate Modi.
Stop defending Modi. Nobody in this forum will buy the argument that Modi was not responsible. AS the CM of a state elected thru` the ballot, he is fully responsible and should have resigned.
Sridhar

I just saw the movie half an hour ago. My only question is that: What is wrong with you people?

Sridhar:

Senior leaders of Congress like Sajjan Kumar, Tytler and HKL Bhagat were witnessed leading mobs. Rajiv Gandhi made the statement about earth shaking when the tree falls.

Modi did not even come close to anything like that.

Here`s the thing, if ineffeciency is to be punished, lotsa politicians must go. Where inaction borders on criminality, then Modi types must go. I completely agree. Mu khundak is the different standards applied to Congress and BJP.

re:#29 by gujju1
Sundar Sukumar is an idiot. Wonder how this guy got a PhD.
Two wrongs do not make a right.
If muslim aggression initially was wrong, pogrom by hindus aided by the state apparatus was doubly wrong. This makes a mockery of police and justice system. The right way would have been to book the muslim culprits and bring them to justice. This would have made many of us proud. Post-Godhra, there is not much substance in the argument that Sanatana dharma is a tolerant religion. Where was the tolerance when Modi killed so many helpless people? After all this idiot claims himself to be a proud hindu.
Sridhar

re:#16 by ankit
You are right.
Gosh, i should know. I was there and it happened right there and i as an intern witnessed the riots erupting soon after Indira Gandhi`s death was announced. The next 2 or 3 days were hell.
In case of Delhi riots, the lower rung of congress leadership participated in the riots while the senior leaders (including Rajiv Gandhi who was just a novice then) looked the other way. Still, they too have to share the blame.
Sridhar

re:#14 by Pardesi
One thing that is disconcerting is that not one politicians has ever been punished for a political crime in the history of free India. I think i believe so. Lalloo`s fodder scam, Rajiv`s Bofor`s scam, so on and so forth. Narasmiha Rao was incriminated in a bribery case but he was recently exonerated by the court.
No wonder politicians have such a poor image in India, followed closely by police officers, IAS etc.
Sridhar