Dev - The Anatomy of A Communal Carnage

#45 by rsridhar on July 26, 2004 8:11am PT
Thanks for the link. I gone through the report.
Its wonderful for HRW to state that one BJP minister took the charge of police control room. Why cannot they name him/her? It would have give them greater authenticity if they did that.
Also, they somehow found out that the Hindu pilgrims returning from Ayodhya killed in godhra were kar-sevaks. There is nothing wrong in being kar-sevaks but it being karsevaks is potrayed as insidious. There were 16 children burned to death. Were they also karsevaks.
I find it hard to believe their claim that Godhra was not pre-planned while attack on muslims after godhra was pre-planned. Similary attack on Hindus by Muslims in Jamalpur were retaliatory but after-godhra were not retaliatory and was pre-planned by the state government.
This report says that charges were filed arbitrarily against muslims youths. Is that why police arrested 18,000 hindus against 4000 muslims.
The reports blame local newspaper for instigating violence. Also, this report somehow consist of attacks on christians. Many incidents of attack agains christians have been acts of rbbery gone astray. There were incidents where christians nuns were raped and quickly VHP/RSS/BJP were blamed for that and later it was found out that they were raped by converted tribals.
I would take the report with a pinch of salt. I hope you have not based your decision on this report only.

#46 by arjun_m on July 26, 2004 8:11am PT
Until post #37, people have accused Modi because the riots happened when he was a chief minister. Other than that no one were able to provide me any links to report including from english media. Except rshridhar provided me with the link for HRW websites. There are few fallacies in that report and specially saying that Godhra was not pre-planned while after godhra was pre-planned by government. Also, muslims attack on hinds were in retaliation but not the other way around.
My accusation against english media was more from my experience. The headlines, the report content are grossly against BJP. I will state you one example from TOI. The heading was ``Lallo makes BJP walk in sun`` while the news was actually that BJP were protesting Lallo being made railway minister. It seems english media has taken the task of defeating/misinforming public against BJP. This is not editorial section of news. I would expect news to reported without any prejudice by the reporter. And leave it up to me to decide.

Regarding rshridhars comment that since Modi was elected via ballot he should resign. Things go wrong because of inefficient bureacrat and politicians. Riots have happened before in many places in India. Why is this CM accused? I believe that a person could be given benefit of doubt atleast once as things get tangled a lot in India. Intermediate people like police officer who were spectators could be disciplined.

Until now there has been one link of HRW stating that Modi and gujarat government had planned killings of muslims even before godhra. I would like to know how many people on this board agree to this so called finding.

#47 by arjun_m
//...Let`s stay on topic here//

The topic is still the same, whether you talk about Modi, laloo, rajeev, commies -- all these folks have used state/non-state machinery to massacre people with abandon to further their own agendas. They are all criminals par excellence.

The mentality that readily acquits Rajeevs ,Laloos and commies for the same/similar crimes is a indeed a twisted one.

Don`t try to wiggle out of it. Don`t give us ``two wrongs don`t make things right`` BS. Of course it does not. Nail Modi - but don`t forget to Nail Laloo.

http://us.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/26rjd.htm
Alleged Al Qaeda terrorist joins RJD

Anybody bothered about this sh!t ! Anybody would ever write an article on casteiest massacres sponsored by RJD, Laloo and other ``secular`` criminals?

Ashutosh Gandhi


It really doesn`t matter exactly where Modi was or wasn`t. I agree with you that calling karsevaks extremists is also wrong. MOst of them are innocent people with genuine faith etc. I even agree that some so-called ``human rights`` activists are the most shameless liars and propagandists.

The problem is simply this: how will India progress if we cannot get beyond this model of revenge killing of innocent people. It is no use saying that look Rajiv Gandhi and Tytler were as bad. OK, agreed, they were even worse than Modi!

But what does this say about us an Indians? The mass murders in Rwanda and Sudan say something about people who live in that region. What do events like gujarat, sikh killings, murder of hindus in Punjab, Tripura say about us? How can we prevent this from happening?

dost_mitter
``villages where the two communities are well-integrated, there is peaceful coexistence, as is the case where the numbers of either community is too small to pose a threat. ``

this is partially true. communities are peacful, and participate in commerce but are physically seggragated.

there have been several riots in small towns, specially with large muslim weaver communities like Bhiwandi, Maleguon, Jalgaon etc. mumbai on the other hand has witnessed only one communal riot (1992). mumbai is also mostly communally seggragated, it has muhallas of muslims, tamils, parsees, gujjus, bhaiyyas and so on.

satyawadi: what is the jain view on guj riots? ahmedabad has a very large jain population and they being pacifist, what is their view? is it part of the main-stream gujju view (if yes, feel free to spell it out) or it differs (how?)

#53 by pmishra2
//...How can we prevent this from happening? ...//

you can prevent this from happening only when you get your head out your a$$. First thing - make the police force independent and professional - no mo-fo ``home ministry`` controlling any police force.

This cr@p has been happening for years - they all have done it - laloos, commies, congress. But sanctimonious morons who are shedding tears now just let them go free - because they are ``secular``. Where was the outrage then? If the same outrage had been displayed when thousands of sikhs were killed by Rajiv`s goons - may be some corrective actions would have been taken .... Some institutionalized mechanisms would have been devised......Some reforms in security forces would have been implemented - which would have ultimately prevented all such events that happened down the line, including Gujrat riots.

But no - it was suppressed - the criminals were allowed to go free and/or made Prime Minister, no less. Which, at the least, encouraged mass-murderers like Modi - ``Hey - if Rajiv can do it and still be darling of the f*king country - then why can`t I do it.``

Of course - nobody here sees the connection - the inevitable downward slide when you did wink-wink at the very first time this kind of sh!t happened.

Now - you ask - what is the way forward? it`s simple really - what needs to be done. But who is going to do it? Laloo, commies and Jagdish Tytler - they all have blood in their hands - they are all criminals par excellence. Who is going cast the first stone?

Mark my word - 5 years down the line- the same thing will happen all over again. You are condmened to live like barbarians.

folks, (or as urstruely says hinduon) talk to your neighbors, relatives, and it will be very clear why modi thought he could get away with rabble rousing (that he did). many believe that muslims just needed to be ``taught a lesson to remember`` so that godhra does not happen again, in sentiment, while disagreeing with killings, rape and mayhem. modi being a good politician, sensed the pulse of the electorate, and brought home a thumping victory.

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dost-mittar #31
Sorry for a late reply.
``There are too many vested interests trying to prove one point or
another
and no one seems to be interested in finding the truth.``
I agree.That is why we should be careful when we generalize, half
truths
can be more dangerous than lies.At least we can ask the right
questions.Is
it too much to ask for the truth in this era of media proliferation?
``But one thing that I am certain of is this: unless one can find some
rock-solid evidence that the Godhra killings were engineered by some
hindus to justify the subsequent killings in Ahmedabad and Baroda
and I
haven`t seen a shred of such evidence- this line should be completely
abandoned``
You missed my point,or i could not make it in so many words.Please
see my
posts..I am not saying that the killings were provoked,nor that there
has
to be an apportionment of blame between the victims and the
killers.Nor am
I hinting at ISI conspiracy theory.I am saying that there are other
local factors at play which have to be analyzed and presented.Please
go
through the article that I have given the link to.Here is an excerpt-
Start Quote
``Because deadly ethnic riots are activities undertaken by crowds,
understanding why these riots occur and how they unfold requires
analysis
of the dynamics of crowd behavior. Rioters display a mixture of lucid
calculation and irrational passion in their behavior, carefully
targeting
their victims but finding emotional release in their killing. ``
End Quote

Religion is an afflliction with which we all were born and will die
But
it manifests into violence at only some places.So,for finding a
solution,IMHO we should concentrate on the subtext,rather than the
heading.You wrote in post #31.
``Why it takes place in a few cities, I believe, is because in those
cities
there are large populations of both communities but they are living
more
or less segregated lives in separate localities. In villages where
the two
communities are well-integrated, there is peaceful coexistence``
This is more or less the same point made in the article I posted. If
the
deciding factor is civic interaction,can`t there be a chance that
the
pricinipal reason for riots in Gothra and Ahmedabad was lack of civic
interaction? And then we would be moving towards some sort of
solution.But
when we project Gothra and Ahmedabad as ONLY cases of religious
extremism
(Which is how normally it is projected,this is
the way in which our minds have been conditioned to think) we create a
vicious
circle and we succeed in widening the rift between both the
communities in
not just at the affected places,but everywhere else too . I know, it
will
be a denial not to say that religious extremism causes these
riots,but it
will be more of a denial if we take this statement at face value and
dont
try to find out the reasons for religious extremism. Likewise if I
conclude from things getting relatively better in Meerut and
Hyderabad
that this is because religious extremism is decreasing,it would not
be
entirely correct.There can be a multitude of factors-economic
development,increase in civic interaction etc.
Though it may seem hard,we must try to judge each event on its facts
and try to find out what exactly went wrong or right.
Again quoting from you-
``The short answer is that the reaction takes place wherever the
politicians at a particuar time are willing to exploit a tense
situation, be
it Modi in Ahmedabad, Thakray in Mumbai or Sajjan Kumar in Delhi. ``
Exactly.These are the factors which are sidelined when we make
generalizations like secularism is dying or extremism is rising.We have
to
raise the social psychological political causes of riots which affect
both
communities equally.The benefits are many-
a) We get cooperation from both communities in eradication of these
causes-nobody is accusing them of anything so they are going to be less
hostile.
b) We are actually working positively towards achieving some sort of
solution,instead of playing the blame game.
c)We are getting a more realistic idea of the complexities and
intricacies of how our society functions.
Please let me know if I was able to make my point or not.I would
have wanted to elucidate some of the points in more detail.

ps i am sorry about the yucky formatting

warpster#22
I would agree with you to the extent that the ethos of the 85% majority would be reflected in the society, regardless of any constitution. But one has to be mindful of the minority sensitivities. For example, Gandhi used the term Ram Rajya to provide the image of a society where the voice of the lowest citizen is heard, but it raised the fear of a `hindu raj` in the minds of many members of the minority community. Similarly, performing `bhoomi poojan` while laying the foundation ceremony of a public building might appear innocuous to the hindus, but not to others. It is best to keep the religion completely out of public affairs if everyone has to have full and complete ownership of the society ownership of the society.

harimou#38
Sorry, your sarcasm escaped me!

ferozk#25
Hi:
I am glad that someone finally asked a question about the film!
No, it`s not a typically bollywood film, which is why it was not a block-buster despite a powerful cast. As regards the answers, a good film offers a mirror to the society and that`s what this film does. There is not too much sermonising here. It tries to present different perspectives about the communcal situation before it presents its own.

Re. the city on the river(s), it is at its seasonal best right now. The bluefest has just ended and the chamber music festival has just started. Went for a picnic yesterday at Vincent Massy Park. The picnic benches and the barbeque pits are still there and are still free but now one has to pay for the parking. Also, very few people were using bbq pits, it seems that the new generation is so used to the gas bbqs that they have forgotten how to use the old-fashioned charcoal ones.

Ashutosh_Gandhi:
I dont think that anything that I say will change your mind. But I would just like to add that Mian Musharraf was an expression to deride Muslim Indians and to suggest that they were unpatriotic. Hum Panch..was to spread the myth about the multi-wife muslim even though polygamy is an exception rather than the rule even among muslims now.
...and it wasn`t only the ``biased`` english language media that held Modi guilty, the judiciary has also passed remarks against the Gujarat govt. and so have Vajpayee and even Thakray. So, are all of them biased?
..and when I referred to villages, I did not mean that different castes (and muslims) do not have separate quarters. They do! And yet, they know each other well, there is frequent interaction and social and economic interdependence.

rahul_capri:
I think that we agree on substantive issues. After all, the basis of this discussion is still largely the film.

...I am a bit disappointed that the discussion on this thread has been mostly a hindu-indian dialogue; muslim Indians are absent from this discussion which has made this discussion somewhat one-sided.

#59 by dost-mittar on July 26, 2004 6:29pm PT
Anything associated with hinduism is looked fundamentalist in todays psuedo-secular world. That was not true about 50-60 years ago. You are trying to juxtapose those words in todays bigoted world. While Gandhi used to term of Ram Rajya to be of self-rule, peace and prosperity. He never intended to make muslims worship Hindu gods. He was against proselytize though. Its just horrible to see someone twist those words of Gandhi. Gandhi has gone on fast not just to stop killings of hindus but also muslims. He has felt sorry when workers of british government were killed by mobs.
It would be wonderful to keep religion out of government completely and making it truly secular i.e. no religion rather than all religion equal.

#53 by pmishra2 on July 26, 2004 3:01pm PT
I think it does matter to find out the real culprits for godhra and aftermath of godhra as it would help to prevent in future. Riots have happened often is many parts of India and not just gujarat but I was amazed to see english media quickly blame it on Modi. It was astounding that they decide to publish lies about Modis statement. The best one was ``Every action has reaction`` while he never said that.
Many people dont like his religious fervour but India is not any european country whose secular credentials be used in India. There is nothing wrong in not being secular as long as one has same respect for his religion and other religions.
There are people/politician who dearly love to exploit religious facts. For them Jesus and Mohammed are fact but Ram and Krishna are myth. As long as politicians tend to play this game these kind of riots will happen.
The best thing would be to get rid of those politicians. And to get rid of them, people have to cast vote against them. That leads to how does one decide to vote in India. Education will play a very important role. Today a person is considered literate if (s)he could read & write his name. The quality of public education is very absymal. One of the reason for chinas growth is that it has invested a lot in education unlike Indian government.
The only solution I believe is invest in education. To find politician who could think in long term basis and not just worry about the next election or by-election.