Mamoon Chowdry August 3, 2004
#31 Posted by M.B.Z.Isphahani on August 7, 2004 8:23:46 am
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#30 Posted by Urstruly on August 6, 2004 5:58:40 am
I think the most violent and most deadly elections in the whole wide world are held in the USA. Every time the time of elections comes near, US attacks some helpless third world country in the world. The innocent human beings in some obscure part of third world pay for the lack of vision, inaptitude, greed, and ravenous hunger for power of the American politicians. Whether it is Johnson`s unprovoked attack on Bay of Tonkin in Vietnam to win a primary in Arizona or another President`s love making with a cigar, it’s the third world that pays with their lives. Whether it is Iraq or Granada, whether it is Nicaragua or Honduras, whether it is Somalia or Afghanistan, the innocent human beings pay with their lives so that American politicians could walk in the corridors of power. This is America`s gift to the world. This is the legacy of American Empire.
A nation that spends the kind of money on cosmetic procedures like anal bleaching and vaginal rejuvenation (I kid you not), that money can feed an African country for a year. Ironically, in order to pay for the grooming habits of Americans the people of an African country might have paid with their lives when their resources – oil, diamonds, gold, precious metals, and what not - was taken away from them along with their sovereignty, dignity, and freedom by the very despots installed on them by Americans. While these despots are honored as state guests in Camp David the misery, poverty, disease and death strikes people in Wana, Palestine, Africa, Kashmir, Iraq, and Chechnya. The innocent human beings of Darfur die because Capitalist Vultures salivate over oil rich Sudan. It’s the innocent human beings who pay with their lives to make an oil company the richest, the largest, and most profitable company in the world. Do you think this America will empower people around the globe so that they could take control and possession of their resources? Do you think this America will empower people with democracy so that they could get rid of their despots who suck their blood like remorseless vampires so that they could elect honest and caring leaders and be sovereign? If so then what will happen to the anuses and vaginas? Who will groom them? It is the freedom and liberty of rich man to groom his anus and poor people are taking this freedom away from him. These sub humans, these pathetic excuse for human beings hate American anuses and its freedoms so much that they want to destroy it in 45 minutes. America has to protect its freedom.
#29 Posted by M.B.Z.Isphahani on August 5, 2004 9:37:04 am
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#28 Posted by nasah on August 5, 2004 7:22:26 am
for 700 years attempts to establish of Democracy in Baghdad have been carried out in earnest -- off and on.....the last were the British...
before our own Little Mongoloid from Texas invaded Baghdad to teach Iraqis -- How to be a Good Republican in Abu Gharib Prison -- 746 years ago to be exact -- the real Mongol Halaku Khan, the grand son of the `Great` Genghis Khan -- tried to do the same in Baghdad .......
.......that is -- in American Vietnamese Phraseology -- ``tried to save Baghdad by destroying it``....but Halaku did not succeed in the long run -- instead Baghdad made his progeny accept Islam and made HIM become civilized....
I think the same fate awaits our own little Mongoloid Halaku .....I am `sure` one day Bush`s progeny will accept Islam and become civilized and Democratic....as well...
....and never invade Baghdad or Middle East again....... to teach Anything....
before our own Little Mongoloid from Texas invaded Baghdad to teach Iraqis -- How to be a Good Republican in Abu Gharib Prison -- 746 years ago to be exact -- the real Mongol Halaku Khan, the grand son of the `Great` Genghis Khan -- tried to do the same in Baghdad .......
.......that is -- in American Vietnamese Phraseology -- ``tried to save Baghdad by destroying it``....but Halaku did not succeed in the long run -- instead Baghdad made his progeny accept Islam and made HIM become civilized....
I think the same fate awaits our own little Mongoloid Halaku .....I am `sure` one day Bush`s progeny will accept Islam and become civilized and Democratic....as well...
....and never invade Baghdad or Middle East again....... to teach Anything....
#27 Posted by nikki7777 on August 4, 2004 5:11:13 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#26 Posted by mchowdry on August 4, 2004 3:24:33 pm
Arjun_m,
With respect, we are coming around full circle, to the original point of the article;
++
Nobody is asking for an American style democracy....How about starting with one man(and one woman), one vote.
++
One man, one vote is all well and good… but that alone does not protect human rights (as per the examples I listed in the article).
++
The man made laws come from morality..morality usually comes from religion..What`s all this got to do with one man one vote?
++
No, man made laws come from politicians. Politicians do and say whatever it takes to get elected. If people want religious principles written down in law, then the politicians will make it so. On the other hand, if the people want to kill all Native Americans and take their land, that can be put into law also. There are times when politicians don`t care what the people think, in which case they do whatever suits them.
++
If residents of a muslim country are given a vote, chances are they will vote in Islamic principles like prohibition but won`t go to the extremes of abolishing an elected government because Islam doesn`t recognize any greater authority(besides allah that is)..
++
I am sure that Islam does not write a blank check for all democracies. Would Islam `recognize the authority` of a democratic government that killed 7 million Jews? Again, Islam is only compatible with democracies that operate within it`s confines, not outside.
++
If the government is answerable to the people via the ballot box, the same standards are automatically applied to the government...IF the government in a Muslim country decides to lift prohibition, the people can make them answerable to Islamic principles by voting them out of power.
++
Perhaps in theory, but not in real life.
There are many `democratic` governments that have decided to ignore the people, and they often get away with it. There was a time when the `democratic` UK was 95% against the Iraqi war, but the government ignored it. How many Americans wanted the US to enter into the Vietnam war? Not even the people fighting that war, wanted to be there. Many governments have a track record of manipulating their populations for political purposes.
This is the problem;
1) Governments can not be trusted because they are run by politicians. Power corrupts. Politicians will do anything to stay in power, even if this means ignoring the people.
2) Pure democracy (on it`s own) can not be trusted. It simply becomes mob rule. In such a democracy, 51% could vote to murder the remaining 49%.
The only way to keep both in check, for the greater good of society, is to have a strong ENFORCED constitution that laws down fundamental principles which are common to all religions (i.e. don`t steal, don`t kill etc.). This document can be written by man (i.e. The Bill of Rights), or it can be taken from religion (i.e. The Quran). Either way, you must have something ABOVE democracy, that secures everyone`s human rights.
#25 Posted by arjun_m on August 4, 2004 2:13:07 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#24 Posted by nakhok on August 4, 2004 1:07:34 pm
Winston Churchill, the late British Prime Minister, observed, ``No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to
time.``
Military dictatorship is not a sign of abundance of enlightenment. And moderated enlightenment cannot possibly lead to enlightened moderation.
time.``
Military dictatorship is not a sign of abundance of enlightenment. And moderated enlightenment cannot possibly lead to enlightened moderation.
#23 Posted by jang on August 4, 2004 1:07:34 pm
Middle east has been a political sick puppy, with a vector leading to death and mayhem, not just for the reagion, but also rest of the word. Something had to be done. The timeframe for mayhem if left alone was short. Ayurvedic holistic medicine would have done nothing to correct fundamental problems (created out of long periods of colonialism, ottoman kind). So democracy insertion is kind of crude gene-therapy or graft done in a field hospital. The first gulf-war was a feeble attempt at resuscitaion of a flatlining policy.
A lot of luck, support and prayer is needed so that the graft can work. American public understands this, and will either re-elect bush, or support kerry in the post-op. Rest of the world understands it as well, (specially the middle-easterners). Everybody is trying to get the best deal out of this decisive action, which only the US could have taken. I think Bush may be Kalki?
A lot of luck, support and prayer is needed so that the graft can work. American public understands this, and will either re-elect bush, or support kerry in the post-op. Rest of the world understands it as well, (specially the middle-easterners). Everybody is trying to get the best deal out of this decisive action, which only the US could have taken. I think Bush may be Kalki?
#22 Posted by mchowdry on August 4, 2004 10:31:20 am
Arjun_m, perhaps I did not explain myself clearly.
I do not believe that Islam is incompatible with democracy. Democracy comes in several flavors. My article was about the western type of democracy that is built typical on the laws of man, not God. Here, regulations are made and enforced at the whim of politicians. It is this flavor of democracy, that I feel should not be pushed on Muslims.
If you had a democratic system of government that is confined within the boundaries of Islamic `laws` as defined in the Quran, then it certainly would be compatible. You could also have a democratic system operating within the definitions of the Bible or the Torah. The difference is that we would accept God`s laws as more important than man`s laws and not vice versa, as in the west.
You said; ``[...]you have to tell us how muslims live in the west, paying interest and accepting a higher authority than allah(namely, the IRS) and still remain muslims...
Maybe there is a middle ground and the way Islam is practiced in muslim majority countries can accomodate a democratic form of government... ``
I have said here that we must have an ``enforced constitution`` that enshrines God`s law (i.e. don`t kill, don`t steal, don`t bear false witness etc.). It should be applied to the government as well as the people. This is needed in Iraq, and also in America. Once we have this, then democracy can flourish and no Muslim, Christian or Jew should feel that he has to choose between his government and his religion.
I do not believe that Islam is incompatible with democracy. Democracy comes in several flavors. My article was about the western type of democracy that is built typical on the laws of man, not God. Here, regulations are made and enforced at the whim of politicians. It is this flavor of democracy, that I feel should not be pushed on Muslims.
If you had a democratic system of government that is confined within the boundaries of Islamic `laws` as defined in the Quran, then it certainly would be compatible. You could also have a democratic system operating within the definitions of the Bible or the Torah. The difference is that we would accept God`s laws as more important than man`s laws and not vice versa, as in the west.
You said; ``[...]you have to tell us how muslims live in the west, paying interest and accepting a higher authority than allah(namely, the IRS) and still remain muslims...
Maybe there is a middle ground and the way Islam is practiced in muslim majority countries can accomodate a democratic form of government... ``
I have said here that we must have an ``enforced constitution`` that enshrines God`s law (i.e. don`t kill, don`t steal, don`t bear false witness etc.). It should be applied to the government as well as the people. This is needed in Iraq, and also in America. Once we have this, then democracy can flourish and no Muslim, Christian or Jew should feel that he has to choose between his government and his religion.
#21 Posted by storyteller on August 4, 2004 7:50:49 am
THE AMIR
www.shaykhabdalqadir.com
....The crisis of our time is a more profound matter whose causes must be traced to that greatest lie, the ghastly doctrine of atheist `humanism` which claims that men can determine their social destiny by human willpower and stuctured legalism. It is that the fundamentals of what is called `democracy` are fatally flawed and pre-determined to produce the opposite of what they claim. In other words, `liberty` is doomed to create slavery, `fraternity` is doomed to create enmity, and `equality` is doomed to create a financial oligarchic elite. it is not an accident that the man who created the slogan `Liberty! Fraternity! Equality!` was guillotined by the Revolution which championed his slogan.
www.shaykhabdalqadir.com
....The crisis of our time is a more profound matter whose causes must be traced to that greatest lie, the ghastly doctrine of atheist `humanism` which claims that men can determine their social destiny by human willpower and stuctured legalism. It is that the fundamentals of what is called `democracy` are fatally flawed and pre-determined to produce the opposite of what they claim. In other words, `liberty` is doomed to create slavery, `fraternity` is doomed to create enmity, and `equality` is doomed to create a financial oligarchic elite. it is not an accident that the man who created the slogan `Liberty! Fraternity! Equality!` was guillotined by the Revolution which championed his slogan.
#20 Posted by aquaris on August 4, 2004 7:35:09 am
Mr Bush again trying to Fix a Square in a Round Peg..
He should seriously be tried in the International court of Crimanal Justice.
#19 Posted by wajahat on August 4, 2004 7:35:08 am
Excellent article
An articulate piece with the right mix of emotion and fact. Thank you and keep up the work!
An articulate piece with the right mix of emotion and fact. Thank you and keep up the work!
#18 Posted by M.B.Z.Isphahani on August 4, 2004 7:35:08 am
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#17 Posted by arjun_m on August 4, 2004 7:35:07 am
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#16 Posted by rahulmal on August 3, 2004 11:02:05 pm
Mamoon,
A good thought provoking article.
No one believes that Bush and co. are out to establish Democracy or any such thing in any part of the world. They have American interests on top of their minds, and they pursue it without any qualms. Morals and other such sentimental foolishness are for the third-world types.
It is a risky proposition to get into a discussion of God`s laws vs. man`s laws. Man`s laws can be changed, God`s laws are immutable.
I don`t think any religion is incompatible with democracy. There are working democracies that have huge Muslim population - Malaysia, Indonesia, and Bangladesh, to name a few.
Democratic system is not a panacea it is made out to be. There are problems like tyranny of the majority and other more practical issues like legislators haranguing over formulation of laws and indulging in petty politics rather than going about the business of governance smoothly.
A benevolent dictator would be a good idea; the only problem is that there is no Litmus test for determining who belongs to this species. So, we settle for the next best, let people choose their representative and kick them out if they don`t perform. Anyway, democracy is not just ballot box, but a free press, independent judiciary and a just constitution. Moreover, success rate of democracy is bound to be better in countries with higher literacy compared to poor and uneducated nations. What good is will of the people if it is bought by a bottle of cheap liquor or a note of 50 Rs.
A good thought provoking article.
No one believes that Bush and co. are out to establish Democracy or any such thing in any part of the world. They have American interests on top of their minds, and they pursue it without any qualms. Morals and other such sentimental foolishness are for the third-world types.
It is a risky proposition to get into a discussion of God`s laws vs. man`s laws. Man`s laws can be changed, God`s laws are immutable.
I don`t think any religion is incompatible with democracy. There are working democracies that have huge Muslim population - Malaysia, Indonesia, and Bangladesh, to name a few.
Democratic system is not a panacea it is made out to be. There are problems like tyranny of the majority and other more practical issues like legislators haranguing over formulation of laws and indulging in petty politics rather than going about the business of governance smoothly.
A benevolent dictator would be a good idea; the only problem is that there is no Litmus test for determining who belongs to this species. So, we settle for the next best, let people choose their representative and kick them out if they don`t perform. Anyway, democracy is not just ballot box, but a free press, independent judiciary and a just constitution. Moreover, success rate of democracy is bound to be better in countries with higher literacy compared to poor and uneducated nations. What good is will of the people if it is bought by a bottle of cheap liquor or a note of 50 Rs.
listing 1-16
1 2
Interact Index
Similar Articles
- Pakistani-Americans or American-Pakistanis? Feroz Qutabshahi
- The Marriott Bombing: ‘Pakistan’s 9/11’? Beena Sarwar
- Musharraf's Resignation and Beyond Beena Sarwar
- Why is Karachi Turning Into a Sell-Out? Ahmer Muzammil
- Democracy is the Best Revenge? Ehtisham Iqbal
US Elections 2008 Primaries
Latest Interacts
- majumdar: Sadna, I cant answer about... Living Gandhi and King
- MantoLives: Sadna, The present day JUI-F... Living Gandhi and King
- masanamuthu: That incidentally is one... Living Gandhi and King
- sadna: majumdar Why worry about finding... Living Gandhi and King
- sadna: How could Khidmatgars be... Living Gandhi and King
- MantoLives: Look at Sadna go... Living Gandhi and King
- majumdar: Sadna, Thanks for JUI's history. Now... Living Gandhi and King
- MantoLives: The JUI of Shabbir... Living Gandhi and King








reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content