Tarek Fatah July 30, 2004
#38 Posted by Romair on August 1, 2004 9:27:01 pm
fatah #36: ``This notion that Pakistanis want to run for the Liberal Party and if they cannot get the ticket, they choose the NDP, is simply hogwash. This thought itself is indicative of the flawed understanding of Canadian poltics.``
I am not sure if this was in reply to my reply. If not, then please ignore.
If it was then I would suggest you first read the complete comment before replying and using words like, ``hogwash.`` I have watched you on TV quite a few times, and while most of your comments make a lot of sense, the biggest disappointment I, and others, have is that you tend to lose your temper too quickly and leave yourself vulnerable for other`s comments, by making incohesive statements after getting excited and emotional. Being an, ``angry young man`` works well in movies. In debates, the most calm person, usually wins out. Just my $.02.
The comment I made was, ``I think most people want a Liberal ticket in Ontario. If they cannot get that, they go for NDP.``
This comment does not mention Pakistanis, it talks about, ``people.`` And it talks about, ``most`` people. Not all people. Most means, a majority. I think most people do want a Liberal ticket in Ontario. This is indicated by the victories the Liberal party has in Ontario. Even in this election, where the Liberal party was at its lowest point, it did extremely well in Ontario. Just in the GTA area alone, it won seats proportional to what the NDP won in the whole country.
Overwhelmingly, most people would thus want a Liberal ticket in Ontario. They vote in that direction. And that is a ticket to victory. However, if someone from this majority (i.e. most) was bent upon trying to get into politics, and could not get a Liberal ticket, he would look at other parties. This does not imply that if they did not get a Liberal ticket, the NDP would automatically give them one. This also does not mean those parties do not have die-hard followers, like yourself, in Ontario. But a majority of the population of Ontario would, first and foremost, want a Liberal ticket. And those who cannot get a Liberal ticket, then do try for other parties.
I am not sure if this was in reply to my reply. If not, then please ignore.
If it was then I would suggest you first read the complete comment before replying and using words like, ``hogwash.`` I have watched you on TV quite a few times, and while most of your comments make a lot of sense, the biggest disappointment I, and others, have is that you tend to lose your temper too quickly and leave yourself vulnerable for other`s comments, by making incohesive statements after getting excited and emotional. Being an, ``angry young man`` works well in movies. In debates, the most calm person, usually wins out. Just my $.02.
The comment I made was, ``I think most people want a Liberal ticket in Ontario. If they cannot get that, they go for NDP.``
This comment does not mention Pakistanis, it talks about, ``people.`` And it talks about, ``most`` people. Not all people. Most means, a majority. I think most people do want a Liberal ticket in Ontario. This is indicated by the victories the Liberal party has in Ontario. Even in this election, where the Liberal party was at its lowest point, it did extremely well in Ontario. Just in the GTA area alone, it won seats proportional to what the NDP won in the whole country.
Overwhelmingly, most people would thus want a Liberal ticket in Ontario. They vote in that direction. And that is a ticket to victory. However, if someone from this majority (i.e. most) was bent upon trying to get into politics, and could not get a Liberal ticket, he would look at other parties. This does not imply that if they did not get a Liberal ticket, the NDP would automatically give them one. This also does not mean those parties do not have die-hard followers, like yourself, in Ontario. But a majority of the population of Ontario would, first and foremost, want a Liberal ticket. And those who cannot get a Liberal ticket, then do try for other parties.
#37 Posted by M.B.Z.Isphahani on August 1, 2004 8:46:38 pm
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#36 Posted by fatah on August 1, 2004 5:01:38 pm
To be fair to Fauzia Khan, she was asked by the NDP to run; she didn`t offer herself for the position. I know it because I was there and was instrumental in what happened.
So dear Aapa, you may have an impression, but impressions may be wrong.
I do agree that fauzia is pretty green in poltics and this does disaapoint me. No 35+ year old should know so little about current issues. Having said that, she is bright and enregetic and if she brings a dash of integrity into her poltics, she can make the difference. No one needs to get elected to create waves; one can do this in many ways.
Fauzia also generated a lot of interest among young Muslims and I had mixed feelings about them in my interaction. They were mostly `professional` and knew very little about Canada and the issues. They simply couldn`t get over same-sex issues.
One more point.
This notion that Pakistanis want to run for the Liberal Party and if they cannot get the ticket, they choose the NDP, is simply hogwash. This thought itself is indicative of the flawed understanding of Canadian poltics. I have been in the NDP for over 15 years. I know many Pakistanis and NOT one of them; REPEAT, not one of them wanted to have anything to do with the Liberal Party. The Indians and Pakistanis who are part of the NDP are mostly left-of-centre social democrats or socialists and would be shocked to hear this being said about them.
Most New Democrats know that their party will be in perpetual opposition. What attarcts us to this party is its principled positions on social justuce and equity issues, not the dream of fame and fortune.
Enough
So dear Aapa, you may have an impression, but impressions may be wrong.
I do agree that fauzia is pretty green in poltics and this does disaapoint me. No 35+ year old should know so little about current issues. Having said that, she is bright and enregetic and if she brings a dash of integrity into her poltics, she can make the difference. No one needs to get elected to create waves; one can do this in many ways.
Fauzia also generated a lot of interest among young Muslims and I had mixed feelings about them in my interaction. They were mostly `professional` and knew very little about Canada and the issues. They simply couldn`t get over same-sex issues.
One more point.
This notion that Pakistanis want to run for the Liberal Party and if they cannot get the ticket, they choose the NDP, is simply hogwash. This thought itself is indicative of the flawed understanding of Canadian poltics. I have been in the NDP for over 15 years. I know many Pakistanis and NOT one of them; REPEAT, not one of them wanted to have anything to do with the Liberal Party. The Indians and Pakistanis who are part of the NDP are mostly left-of-centre social democrats or socialists and would be shocked to hear this being said about them.
Most New Democrats know that their party will be in perpetual opposition. What attarcts us to this party is its principled positions on social justuce and equity issues, not the dream of fame and fortune.
Enough
#35 Posted by malik99 on August 1, 2004 3:06:47 pm
aapa # 29 - You wrote ``I found Fauzia Khan to be not only naive, but alos opportunistic. She ran for the NDP, but knew nothing about the party`s policies. I got the impression she was using this to pursue her business networking goals. During the elections a Radio station exposed her as having worked on the George Bush campaign and that she was registerd Republican in the US. She obviously had hidden this fact from the NDP, a left-wing party.``
aapa - lets put a few things in context here. First of all, Fauzia is a young woman and this being her first political stint, may have come across as naive, inexperienced or both. I did allude to that fact in my earlier post.
As for your suggestion that she was ``exposed`` as having worked for Bush campaign in 2000, you are being a bit out of context here. You have to remember that the candidate Bush of 2000 had FULL endorsements of all Muslim organizations and all of these organizations in many shapes and forms supported him. It was in that context that Fauzia worked in his campaign. It was not a shameful thing and a liability at that time, it may be now. Besides, there is nothing unusual in US about young people who are in the process of ``figuring out`` their place to have volunteered in republican AND democratic candidate`s campaigns at various times. And as an interactor pointed out, that she may also have run on NDP` ticket, because that was the only party that gave her the ticket.
Your suggestion that she may have run in the elections to further her business contacts, well, I find nothing new about such allegations. We as lowly laptop warriors sit home and constantly question the motivations of those who are out there trying to make some waves and do some things.
aapa - lets put a few things in context here. First of all, Fauzia is a young woman and this being her first political stint, may have come across as naive, inexperienced or both. I did allude to that fact in my earlier post.
As for your suggestion that she was ``exposed`` as having worked for Bush campaign in 2000, you are being a bit out of context here. You have to remember that the candidate Bush of 2000 had FULL endorsements of all Muslim organizations and all of these organizations in many shapes and forms supported him. It was in that context that Fauzia worked in his campaign. It was not a shameful thing and a liability at that time, it may be now. Besides, there is nothing unusual in US about young people who are in the process of ``figuring out`` their place to have volunteered in republican AND democratic candidate`s campaigns at various times. And as an interactor pointed out, that she may also have run on NDP` ticket, because that was the only party that gave her the ticket.
Your suggestion that she may have run in the elections to further her business contacts, well, I find nothing new about such allegations. We as lowly laptop warriors sit home and constantly question the motivations of those who are out there trying to make some waves and do some things.
#34 Posted by M.B.Z.Isphahani on August 1, 2004 3:06:46 pm
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#33 Posted by dost_mittar on August 1, 2004 9:46:57 am
romair#32:
Could you please tell us which Canadian party is not truly secular?
Could you please tell us which Canadian party is not truly secular?
#32 Posted by Romair on August 1, 2004 9:26:00 am
Interesting info about Monia and Fauzia. I wonder how much of it is true.
I don`t think any party should restrict or force their candidates in voting in a certain manner on, ``moral`` issues. What if someone agrees with much of what the NDP says (like I do), but does not believe in abortion or gay marriage (like I don`t). Why can`t they be an NDP candidate? Does the Conservative party force people to vote pro-life and against gay-marriage?
I think desi candidates join parties, to a great extent, based on who will give them a ticket. I think most people want a Liberal ticket in Ontario. If they cannot get that, they go for NDP.
Having said that, I think NDP is the only truly secular party in North America. Secularism demands a complete separation of Church and State. Not an 80% separation, like most North American parties. Anyone believing in secularism, thus cannot use religion to define a union between two people. Based on this, they would have to support gay marriage. And equivalency of all religions in public affairs (Christmas holidays etc.). The NDP is the only party that takes religion greatly, if not completely out of politics. All others take in partially out of politics - including the US Republican and Democratic parties....
I don`t think any party should restrict or force their candidates in voting in a certain manner on, ``moral`` issues. What if someone agrees with much of what the NDP says (like I do), but does not believe in abortion or gay marriage (like I don`t). Why can`t they be an NDP candidate? Does the Conservative party force people to vote pro-life and against gay-marriage?
I think desi candidates join parties, to a great extent, based on who will give them a ticket. I think most people want a Liberal ticket in Ontario. If they cannot get that, they go for NDP.
Having said that, I think NDP is the only truly secular party in North America. Secularism demands a complete separation of Church and State. Not an 80% separation, like most North American parties. Anyone believing in secularism, thus cannot use religion to define a union between two people. Based on this, they would have to support gay marriage. And equivalency of all religions in public affairs (Christmas holidays etc.). The NDP is the only party that takes religion greatly, if not completely out of politics. All others take in partially out of politics - including the US Republican and Democratic parties....
#31 Posted by dost_mittar on August 1, 2004 9:11:31 am
Re.Monia:
She clarified her position in a CBC radio interview. She said that her religious beliefs did not allow her to support abortion or gay rights but that she would abide by her party`s directive on those issues. Good thing she no longer has to face a moral dilemma!
[off-topic]
Met a wonderful man yesterday. Walking to my volunteer job with a children`s facility attached to the children`s hospital here, I saw a lonely pathan smoking on a bench outside the children`s hospital. He only spoke pashtu and dari so I had difficulty communicating with him. Still I learned this much: he is the father of Jamshid, an Afghan boy with a serious heart defect who has been flown here from Kabul for his heart treatment. He has no problem of food as the local community here brings him the food he is accustomed to. His son is being transferred to the Sick Children`s hospital of Toronto where his son`s chances of a successful operation are better. Please try to help this man, especially if you know pasthu or dari. Thanks!
She clarified her position in a CBC radio interview. She said that her religious beliefs did not allow her to support abortion or gay rights but that she would abide by her party`s directive on those issues. Good thing she no longer has to face a moral dilemma!
[off-topic]
Met a wonderful man yesterday. Walking to my volunteer job with a children`s facility attached to the children`s hospital here, I saw a lonely pathan smoking on a bench outside the children`s hospital. He only spoke pashtu and dari so I had difficulty communicating with him. Still I learned this much: he is the father of Jamshid, an Afghan boy with a serious heart defect who has been flown here from Kabul for his heart treatment. He has no problem of food as the local community here brings him the food he is accustomed to. His son is being transferred to the Sick Children`s hospital of Toronto where his son`s chances of a successful operation are better. Please try to help this man, especially if you know pasthu or dari. Thanks!
#30 Posted by aapa on August 1, 2004 7:20:49 am
You claim that Ratansi did not visit mosques.
That is not true. Ratansi visited many mosques and even spoke at the huge eid prayers. In fact she debated at the infamous Salaheddine Mosque where the Khder family thrived.
But should this matter? Should mosques be allowed to used for poltical purposes? All the imams and mosques were dishonest that they restricted their pulpits for only ruling party candidates.
In one case in Vancouver, another Muslim woman candidate for the NDP was chased out of a msoque. I belivee her name was Itrath Shaikh
I found Fauzia Khan to be not only naive, but alos opportunistic. She ran for the NDP, but knew nothing about the party`s policies. I got the impression she was using this to pursue her business networking goals. During the elections a Radio station exposed her as having worked on the George Bush campaign and that she was registerd Republican in the US. She obviously had hidden this fact from the NDP, a left-wing party.
Many in her campaign were shocked to find they were working for a Bush supporter.
As a NDP member myself, I was dismayed at this lack of character among young Muslims. They tend to treat politics as unprincipled actvity. This may be true in many parties, but not in the NDP, which BTW is also home to the writer of the article, Tariq Fatah (he too ran for the NDP once).
Funny thing is that even though Fatah wrote a powerful piece in favour of Ratansi, I doubt if he would have voted for her; he is what people call a ``Yellow Dog New Democrat``
That is not true. Ratansi visited many mosques and even spoke at the huge eid prayers. In fact she debated at the infamous Salaheddine Mosque where the Khder family thrived.
But should this matter? Should mosques be allowed to used for poltical purposes? All the imams and mosques were dishonest that they restricted their pulpits for only ruling party candidates.
In one case in Vancouver, another Muslim woman candidate for the NDP was chased out of a msoque. I belivee her name was Itrath Shaikh
I found Fauzia Khan to be not only naive, but alos opportunistic. She ran for the NDP, but knew nothing about the party`s policies. I got the impression she was using this to pursue her business networking goals. During the elections a Radio station exposed her as having worked on the George Bush campaign and that she was registerd Republican in the US. She obviously had hidden this fact from the NDP, a left-wing party.
Many in her campaign were shocked to find they were working for a Bush supporter.
As a NDP member myself, I was dismayed at this lack of character among young Muslims. They tend to treat politics as unprincipled actvity. This may be true in many parties, but not in the NDP, which BTW is also home to the writer of the article, Tariq Fatah (he too ran for the NDP once).
Funny thing is that even though Fatah wrote a powerful piece in favour of Ratansi, I doubt if he would have voted for her; he is what people call a ``Yellow Dog New Democrat``
#29 Posted by fatah on August 1, 2004 7:20:49 am
Hello folks,
As a longtime NDP member, let me assure you that our party believes in the universality of human rights. As such, irrespective of one`s religious beliefs, we insist on members recognizing equity issues from that perspective.
As far as Monia Mazigh is concerned, she first assured the party that she would support the same-sex issue as a human rights issue. then she was caight on camera in a Windsor mosque telling a group of women that she will abstain from the vote.
After being caught on camera, she had to then mainatin the story. The funny thing is that just a week before the election campaign began, she told me on my TV show that she believed in a complete seperation of religion and state and as such she found no conflict in her relious views and the issue of same-sex rights.
Last yesr aroound this time, my wife and I had written an opinion piece for the Toronto Star on our take on same-sex issues. This article was also reproduced on Chowk and is still there at:
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00002594&channel=gulberg
Take a read and go flame me!
Tarek fatah
As a longtime NDP member, let me assure you that our party believes in the universality of human rights. As such, irrespective of one`s religious beliefs, we insist on members recognizing equity issues from that perspective.
As far as Monia Mazigh is concerned, she first assured the party that she would support the same-sex issue as a human rights issue. then she was caight on camera in a Windsor mosque telling a group of women that she will abstain from the vote.
After being caught on camera, she had to then mainatin the story. The funny thing is that just a week before the election campaign began, she told me on my TV show that she believed in a complete seperation of religion and state and as such she found no conflict in her relious views and the issue of same-sex rights.
Last yesr aroound this time, my wife and I had written an opinion piece for the Toronto Star on our take on same-sex issues. This article was also reproduced on Chowk and is still there at:
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00002594&channel=gulberg
Take a read and go flame me!
Tarek fatah
#28 Posted by Romair on July 31, 2004 10:28:52 pm
virtue83: #27: I thought it was mandatory, as party policy, for all NDP candidates to vote for gay marriage and abortion, and not even abstain from it.
#27 Posted by virtue83 on July 31, 2004 9:00:38 pm
Romair: ``I believe to get a ticket for NDP, one has to openly declare that they support gay rights and gay marriage and support abortion. So all the Pakistanis and Muslims getting their ticket from NDP, would have declared that. ``
Monia Mazigh also ran on a NDP ticket (she lost) but she said that her personal beliefs do not allow her to vote for gay marriages. But she does not want to show disrespect to her party hence she would abstain from voting on that issue.
I am also from `sauga. A great place to live. I think Liberals won all over GTA. Anybody standing on a Liberal ticket in GTA is destined to win. Regardless of his/her ethnic and religious background.
Is is interesting to note that MSA, ISNA only count Ismaili`s when showing the muslim population in Canada.
Why didn`t the paki press cover Rattansi`s story? Well maybe becoz Rattansi never cared to visit the mosques or attend muslim fundraisers, Parrish and Wajid did!
Monia Mazigh also ran on a NDP ticket (she lost) but she said that her personal beliefs do not allow her to vote for gay marriages. But she does not want to show disrespect to her party hence she would abstain from voting on that issue.
I am also from `sauga. A great place to live. I think Liberals won all over GTA. Anybody standing on a Liberal ticket in GTA is destined to win. Regardless of his/her ethnic and religious background.
Is is interesting to note that MSA, ISNA only count Ismaili`s when showing the muslim population in Canada.
Why didn`t the paki press cover Rattansi`s story? Well maybe becoz Rattansi never cared to visit the mosques or attend muslim fundraisers, Parrish and Wajid did!
#26 Posted by haideri on July 31, 2004 7:16:44 pm
Here she goes again. Here Nikki Nikki Nikki here Nikki Nikki Nikki
#25 Posted by deadrajput on July 31, 2004 11:12:46 am
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#24 Posted by Romair on July 31, 2004 8:31:22 am
Malik99#23: Yonge and Eglinton is indeed called Young and Eligible. It is one of the most expensive areas to live in Canada. A place where all the yuppies live. Very nice area. I don`t like living in downtowns or uptowns, otherwise, that would have been my first choice.
Your descriptions of areas is very accurate. GTA is already 52% immigrant. It is the most multi-cultural city in North America; even more so than New York. Ironically, it has been voted the most organized and safest big city in North America. And the 18th best place in the world to live by UN (Vancouver was first last year).
Mississauga is already the center of the Pakistani community. As Brampton is for Sikhs. And Scarborogh for Sri Lankans. And Richmond Hill for Chineses. A Pakistani fought the mayoral elections for the city of Mississauga (he was crushed by the incumbent mayor). Interestingly, Mississauga is not an ethnic ghetto. It is one of the wealthiest cities in Canada, and its third biggest financial center, and an emerging IT center. Though I live in the surroundings, my business is located there (until I raise enough money to get a good downtown office). And the safest in Canada (making it the safest in North America, probably).
Canadians seem very open to supporting all ethnicities and religions in elections. In some cases, in these areas, all the candidates were South Asian. South Asians are mostly in the Liberal party. The ones who cannot get a ticket from there, generally go to even the more Liberal NDP. NDP is probably the only truly major secular party in North America. It completely keeps religion away from politics. I believe to get a ticket for NDP, one has to openly declare that they support gay rights and gay marriage and support abortion. So all the Pakistanis and Muslims getting their ticket from NDP, would have declared that.
Anyways, Begumpura should have another Pakistani candidate in five to ten years, due to the demographics alone......
Your descriptions of areas is very accurate. GTA is already 52% immigrant. It is the most multi-cultural city in North America; even more so than New York. Ironically, it has been voted the most organized and safest big city in North America. And the 18th best place in the world to live by UN (Vancouver was first last year).
Mississauga is already the center of the Pakistani community. As Brampton is for Sikhs. And Scarborogh for Sri Lankans. And Richmond Hill for Chineses. A Pakistani fought the mayoral elections for the city of Mississauga (he was crushed by the incumbent mayor). Interestingly, Mississauga is not an ethnic ghetto. It is one of the wealthiest cities in Canada, and its third biggest financial center, and an emerging IT center. Though I live in the surroundings, my business is located there (until I raise enough money to get a good downtown office). And the safest in Canada (making it the safest in North America, probably).
Canadians seem very open to supporting all ethnicities and religions in elections. In some cases, in these areas, all the candidates were South Asian. South Asians are mostly in the Liberal party. The ones who cannot get a ticket from there, generally go to even the more Liberal NDP. NDP is probably the only truly major secular party in North America. It completely keeps religion away from politics. I believe to get a ticket for NDP, one has to openly declare that they support gay rights and gay marriage and support abortion. So all the Pakistanis and Muslims getting their ticket from NDP, would have declared that.
Anyways, Begumpura should have another Pakistani candidate in five to ten years, due to the demographics alone......
#23 Posted by malik99 on July 31, 2004 7:54:18 am
Romair - I moved to Toronto from US in 2000 due to a long term project. I lived there for nearly 2 years until I moved back to US. I lived near Yonge & Eglinton ( also called ``Young and Eligible``) . Toronto is truly a beautiful city. I loved the summer events by the Harbor Front, City Festival as well as other many many ethnic events. I also tremendously enjoyed walking late at night with friends in dowtown, without having fear of getting shot.
Indeed ``Begumpura`` has a very big population of Pakistanis. During my years in Toronto, I often hear that 905 area code (mississauga`s area code) was experiencing the steepest growth in population than any other area code in Canada. I would venture to say that in not so distant future, and provided that Canada`s immigration laws stay the same, it could become the biggest ``little pakistan`` in North America.
What is also interesting about Toronto and its surroundings is that it has evolved into pockets of ethnic communities. So much so that a mention of a particular area of Toronto reminds one of that particular community. For example, Mississauga brings to mind Pakistanis. Brampton, with a humongous number of Sikhs and ``khalsa`` schools brings to mind that community. Scarborough, where Fauzia Khan resides, has a large number of south asians, particularly Sri Lankans. Yonge & Finch area has a large number of Iranians and their businesses. Rodedale and Bathurst has a large jewish population. The area around Spadina, Lake Shore and Yonge has a large east asian community. Danforth, east of Yonge, has a large Greek population.
Perhaps the evolution of these ``pockets of ethnicities`` has also contributed to the election victories to the parliament of quite a few immigrants residing in these pockets. Although I am not a proponent of voting along ethnic lines, but perhaps at this stage of Canadian history it is important for these communities to have their representation.
Indeed ``Begumpura`` has a very big population of Pakistanis. During my years in Toronto, I often hear that 905 area code (mississauga`s area code) was experiencing the steepest growth in population than any other area code in Canada. I would venture to say that in not so distant future, and provided that Canada`s immigration laws stay the same, it could become the biggest ``little pakistan`` in North America.
What is also interesting about Toronto and its surroundings is that it has evolved into pockets of ethnic communities. So much so that a mention of a particular area of Toronto reminds one of that particular community. For example, Mississauga brings to mind Pakistanis. Brampton, with a humongous number of Sikhs and ``khalsa`` schools brings to mind that community. Scarborough, where Fauzia Khan resides, has a large number of south asians, particularly Sri Lankans. Yonge & Finch area has a large number of Iranians and their businesses. Rodedale and Bathurst has a large jewish population. The area around Spadina, Lake Shore and Yonge has a large east asian community. Danforth, east of Yonge, has a large Greek population.
Perhaps the evolution of these ``pockets of ethnicities`` has also contributed to the election victories to the parliament of quite a few immigrants residing in these pockets. Although I am not a proponent of voting along ethnic lines, but perhaps at this stage of Canadian history it is important for these communities to have their representation.
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