Train to Pakistan 2004 - Heading Back

kaurasach/72 and veeresh/99:

of course customs and immigration have been the same all over ...and for quite some time actually if one reads Ibn Battuta`s travelogue of crossing the Indian frontier.

Having passed from the Mediterranean to the Indus without attracting the attention of a single gvernment official, Batuta, like so many subsequent travellers, crossed the Indian frontier only to find himself caught up in an impenetrable web of bureaucracy: no sooner had they set foot on the east bank of the Indus than intelliegence officials `wrote to Delhi informing the king of our arrival and giving him all the details concerning us.` The traveller was then grilled by the corrupt Indian border officials :`their custom was to take a quarter of everything brought in by the merchants and to exact a duty of seven dinars for every horse.` None of this was at all to the Moroccan`s taste:`The idea of having my baggage searched was most disagreeable to me. There was nothing valuable in it, though it seemed a great deal in the eyes of these people (Darymple, 1994: 255).

Some things never change then..so I guess we should grin and bear with it!!!


veeresh/99:
re: the tale of the `hapless shareefa`...our explanation was always that `sita` fal (as in Sita`s fruit) became Shareefa ( the blameless one) roughly at the same time the Union Jack went down in South Asia, Rampura became Islampura and so on ..lest the humble fruit reminds anyone of our hedon past...though the comaprision to Nawaz Sharif is kind of eery..so does this mean that the modern day Sita/Sharif will be returning from exile to the holy lands after 14 years??

#111-115

Move on guys, nothing to see here. Someday a nuke will go off in the back of a cab in Kurla, and tahmed will sit snug by the light of the fire in DC and sing the same tune on how ``indian`s are out to defame the pure``.

mohar #108 All I can say is (as I have said many times before), with enemies like the Pakistan haters in India (and I am not saying that you are one of them), Pakistan needs no friends. :-)

You can say that Pakistan has defamed itself - however, the fact is that the same can be said for any state. And so this is a meaningless thing you say. I could point for example have pointed to how India has been defamed in the world by the government sponsored Gujrat riots, for example. But I have not. I many times in the past on chowk have pointed to how India has defamed itself to the world by overrunning every single state it was physically capable of overrunning (Goa, Junagadh, Manavadar, Hyderabad), but I have not.

And for the same reason, Pakistanis in general dont care how strongly Indians hate us -we are protected not by your goodwill but by our ability to counter any attempts at bullying, and the Indian government knows it. At the individual level, as any Indian who has visited Pakistan can vouch (including Veeresh in this article), Pakistanis in general dont have the kind of hatred for Indians that is evident among so many Indian posters on chowk. (as for arjun - i dont care what he has to say, the fact is that this is a man who has for the past three years been gloating over the misery of innocent Pakistanis who were deported from Pakistan thus reflecting the kind of lowlife he is. Before logic comes some basic decency, and lacking that all you have is a despicable indiviudal as in his case. Nor do I find much logic in his routine shrieking about Pakis this and Pakis that).

When I refer to defamation efforts by India - I refer to a specific policy that was all to obvious in the 1990`s when a concerted effort was made by India to have Pakistan listed as an pariah state. Anyway, I have no problem with you or anyone else I interact with personally (if I do, I simply refuse to interact with that individual, and maybe toss a few remarks about the individual when I have nothing better to do).

jang #110 It is sad if concern for the degradation of the poor in India and Pakistan that comes from poverty should require a bleeding heart. Poverty is everybody`s problem (if one is concerned about things beyond one`s personal comfort).

mohar #109 Glad we agree on something. :-)

HE #101 When you write ``India does not want any country that can challenge it militarily or economically inside the Indian subcontinent. ``, you have clearly missed the point I have been making here. It is not a question of what India wants - it is a question of what India can get. And the fact is that militarily India cannot threaten anymore after nuclearization.

As for economics - Of course India is going to become the dominant economy. This is only to be expected given its size, global trends and current growth rates. We would have to be incredibly short-sighted if we were not to whole-heartedly welcome this economic progress in Pakistan. Since this will (regardless again of what ``Indians want``) translate into economic progress for Pakistan as well. If our government is smart and concerned about Pakistan`s future, it will of course simply seek to defuse the military tensions (by mending fences politically) and jump onto the Indian economic bandwagon (while remaining open to the rest of the world too, of course).

104
Like I said, your charge that India was trying to ``defame`` pakistan is valid. India has done whatever necessary to keep the criminal enterprise next door contained - ``defaming`` is just one of the tools that have been/should have been employed. In fact - many feel that had indian reactions been harsher from beginning - things wouldn`t have gone this far. Being soft on crminals is a crime by itself.

Naturally, being a pakistani - you feel slighted/offended - but India can`t help it. (Anyway - Indian actions are against the establishment - not against pakistani indviduals. You should realize that )

India has to do what it has done - probably more. Pakistan is also doing exactly the same thing (Unfortuantely you fail to see that), ``defaming`` and bullying and what not. In which they have actually succceeded to some extent .... unlike the useless Indians who have utterly failed to nail pakis to their place, despite their best efforts.

Any case - as the recent events have shown - trying to defame pakistan is no more required, since pakistan has already defamed itself beyond redemption.

So in the above context - your constant holier-than-thou recitals does come off as unnecessary whining.

+++++++++

Arjun can defend himself, but from what I have seen - he usually presents his arguments forcefully with logic and evidence.

#105 by tahmed32
//(a) demonization of the other country - ... (b) Support to further movement towards democracy in Pakistan; ....(c) freeing of trade and investments between the two countries...//

Exactly. Also good to see that Kashmir is not part of the list.

#102 by tahmed32

Calm down and stop the bleeding from your heart. What you need is a big ``Hug``, may you get one on the highway, Amen.

Veeresh,

Go for fish at Rice Boat under the flyover in Bandra Highway for some cool king-fish served by horizontal head-wagging Mallus in Zari-border Vettis. No merlot (no liquor permit), just coconut water. No dosa, appams/string appams. Small place (30-40 seats?), and full of Japanese Businessmen for some reason.

arjun: I have no interest in your views. fuc!k off.

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tahmed32 #94

Many in the Pakistani establishment, and even those who want peace with India, hold a different opinion. We do have a few mutual interests with India, but these mutual interests are limited. India does not want any country that can challenge it militarily or economically inside the Indian subcontinent.

How do you explain the sudden spike in BJP rhetoric against Pakistan after Sep 11, 2001 when just 2 months ago the two countries were at the verge of a breakthrough in Agra? After the failure of Agra talks, India and Pakistan agreed to hold a second round of talks using the Agra framework in Islamabad.

India was comfortable talking to Pakistan before 9/11 because at that stage Pakistan was cornered because of its economic problems and diplomatic isolation. By engaging Pakistan in an arms race and exploiting Pakistan`s diplomatic isolation, India was improving its own bargaining position viz-a-viz Pakistan. The BJP and hawkish Indian bureaucracy was attempting a USSR on Pakistan. Either Pakistan would go bankrupt and yield to Indian stand on Kashmir... or Pakistan would implode because of arms race and economic recession.

September 11 threw a spanner in the works. India doesn`t even share borders with Afghanistan but was still quick to offer its bases to the U.S. Why? Because this was India`s opportunity to convert the ``War against Terrorism`` into a War against Pakistan. The Americans didn`t take the bait.

jang: Before declaring this board shut, you could at least acknowledge (or explaining why you reject) my point that in complaining about public toilet (I am being euphamistic now) you demonstrated the callous disregard for the plight of the poor that pervades the desi babus (i.e. the only time you notice the human degradation that comes with the poverty that the vast majority of indians and pakistanis are mired in is when you see them defecating in public from behind your air conditioned cars). Truth hurts. :-)

#96 by ballukhan
//...America and the rest of the Europe will wake up after suffering from the next 9/11. ...//

America has already woken up. Europe will take a little longer.

Canadians are bissfully ignorant - they would have a tough time.

mohar #95 That remark about the despicable specimen from India obsessed with Pakistan was not directed towards you (at least on this board I think you are on the mark in pointing out the harsh realities of India that your countrymen pretend does not exist). It was towards these countrymen of yours (the arjuns and the gujjubanias). WHen I mention India`s attempts to defame Pakistan (and then to bully Pakistan) I refer to facts of recent history (I never had any doubts even when Indian ambassadors to western countries were trying their best to have Pakistan declared a pariah nation). This is not whining. This is sticking to the truth.