Train to Pakistan 2004 - Heading Back

jang #74 That was meant to be a joke, so no need to get serious about it. If you wish to discuss this issue seriously, however, you need to discuss it in a broader context than the narrow aspect of the act per se as you do. As follows:

a. defecation per se is part of the basic functions of life as we know it (i.e. part of the cycle of ingestion, digestion and excretion). And there is plenty of beauty and things to wonder about concerning life as we know it.

b. public defecation is degrading no doubt - but it is just part of the many degradations that the poor (or even the economically dependant) have to suffer daily. Indeed, from the poor man`s perspective, this is probably the least of the degradations and problems he has to face daily that are invisible to the ``babu elite`` of india and pakistan. And your post is an example of how the only thing that concerns this callous elite is when this degradation imposes itself (as in case of public defecation) on their neat world of air-conditioned cars and bungalows in india and pakistan.

Far more disgusting, in my humble opinion, than the public defecation of the poor in india and pakistan is the callous, self-centered and superficial attitude that causes fools on chowk to talk about everything on earth (4rth largest GNP, US policies, india-pakistan politics, muslim chauvinism, hindu chauvinism) other than the grim realities that face their countrymen.

Urstruly

Post # 80

Quote:

`` I don`t think we can afford the luxury of lexicography at this critical juncture. ``

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My point was, one of the conclusions that you may come to that you *should* break off relations with US but, *can* you afford to do it? So what I wrote earlier was not about lexicography.

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#70 by harish_hyd

How can a news item in the NYT be a ``slap in the face``?
A critical story in a newspaper (especially a widely read one like NYT) can be embarrasing for Pakistan. But until this story translates into government policy, Senate legislation, sanctions or a critical statement from the White House... it can`t really hurt Pakistan.

And BTW, this NYT story about a ``one-off`` case, has already been overshadowed by the larger story of the arrest of Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani by Pakistani authorities and his handover to the US. The Ghailani arrest has been a top story on Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, CNBC, ABC, Washington Post and even the NYT.

Since the Ghailani arrest has led to a major breakthrough in intelligence and detailed information about terror threat, Pakistan`s stock has risen. And as long as Pakistan continues to deliver against Al-Qaeda, Pakistan`s stock will continue to rise notwithstanding the few Kashmiri or Taliban jihadis who don`t threaten US interests.

71
//....We are still mired in poverty, ignorance, backwardness and illiteracy. There are islands of prosperity in a sea of hunger and deprivation. I know I sound like a communist, but ....//

No - you don`t sound like a commie. In fact, commies and wannabe-commies are the reason why India is still mired in poverty and filth. These mof0s have been screw!ng India royally since ages - the result is for all to see.

The so-called ``islands of prosperity`` is nothing but a small attempt by some hard-working people to live a decent human life - these folks have somehow broken the shackle of inefficiency and built something worthwhile. But it won`t last long. Sooner or later - the hordes of morons will jump upon it and ruin it.

That, in nutshell, is the entire history of independenet India - where morons are heros, heroes are ignored, hard work is despised, bullsh!t of all types are propagated ad nauseam - no matter how many times the dogma they swear by has been proven to be false right before their eyes.

This is the only country in the world where a jack-a$$ like Jyoti basu could be a hero - even though the mof0 ran a performing state to the ground the during 25 year rule - Besides, does anybody know any democratic country where one person or party that can continously rule for 25 years - even though they have nothing to so show for achievements?

So to the buffoon who is having pissing contest with pakis about ``fourth richest country`` or something - chill off man! A bunch of flyovers notwithstanding - India is not going anywhere anytime soon.

arjunm

````We`` as in ``We the people of Pakistan`` or ``we the ruling class that relies on American support for our schools with petting zoos and we`re willing to bomb our own people for that``?``

I don`t know. Ask HE or Romair; they staunchley support the murder of Pakistani people thru their unqualified support to the fauji murderers.

And I think you know about my position anyway.

rajsingh

I don`t think we can afford the luxury of lexicography at this critical juncture.

Urstruly

Post # 77

Quote:

If we shouldn`t then what we should do about an unreliable and extremely aggressive lawless entity.

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Is the term *should* not very strong/premature here, given that it is not very clear what *can* (referring to the capabilities of the doer or a potential doer) be done?

*Should*, on its own will not mean much unless it flows from *can* (referring to capabilities of the doer or someone who wants to do it)

So first it has be to clear what *can* you (not you personally) do.

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HE

I think arjun # 75 is correct in his assessment. There is no need to hide or manipulate the truth. It is absolutely clear that Americans do not trust us, so the pertinent question is should we trust them. If we shouldn`t then what we should do about an unreliable and extremely aggressive lawless entity.

# 71

Gentleman
This may be true in the case of those who are professional carriers and go to and fro to bring in illegal stuff or they try to find ways to avoid customs duty. Customs in India has improved a lot. Normally one is asked to open the baggage if Customs find electronics goods while doing X-Ray. Otherwise, with liberal customs regime most of the people leave through Green Channel without much of harrasment.

Regards

67

````Somehow the article is better when the philosophical moorings are less ;-).. ```

should be read as

``Somehow the article is better when the philosophical musings are less ;-).. ``

Sorry for the error..

tahmed
``Next time you see the early morning Lota Ceremony in progress, observe the expression of bliss on the face of the individual in question.``
There is not beauty in human degradation, so dont generelize, some things are ugly.

Veeresh being a foodie shows. Also i am glad that he did not recommend Vodka in tumblerfull of cracked (but not crushed) ice, with a splash of Rooh-Afza topped with a mint leaf :-)

Meat-eaters have interesting ways to bring out food flavours. In Irani hotels of the past, milk pored in Tea (Chai) had a beaten egg in it, giving it a luscious creamy body. (offcourse, this was not advertized).

Veeresh, one objection/observation I would have is that your travelogues though full of very keen observations, did not ``market`` the place. I mean, did not make me feel like getting-up and visiting the place. Most travelogues (at least in travel section etc) tend sell the place of interest.

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#56 by HisExcellency

[To rest of the world, Pakistan is a frontline ally against terror that is prosecuting the war against terror despite its limited resources and opposition from a small but powerful minority.

By re-admiting Pakistan into Commonwealth and ARF, the international community has already slapped India on the face. How many more slaps do you want to bear before you realize that the world does not see Pakistan through Indian eyes!!]

You`re only deluding yourself if you think the world does not think of Pakistan as a country that breeds terrorists. Here`s what the NYT has to say about Pakistan`s `support` to the war on terror.

Pakistan Allows Taliban to Train, a Detained Fighter Says

Excerpts:

``In an interview in late July, in front of several prison guards, he said Pakistan was allowing militant groups to train and organize insurgents to fight in Afghanistan.``

``Mr. Sohail described his recruitment through his local mosque by a group listed by the United States as having terrorist links, his military training in a camp not far from the capital, Islamabad, and his dispatch with several other Pakistanis to Afghanistan.``

``He did not give all the details that intelligence officials said they gleaned from him in interrogations, but he talked easily about his party and its leaders, and said they had high-level support from within the establishment.``

``It is an open secret in Pakistan that groups supporting separatism in Kashmir have not stopped their activities, despite official declarations, and have continued to train men and infiltrate them into Indian Kashmir. Deputy Secretary of State Richard L. Armitage said during a visit to the region last month that Pakistan had not dismantled all the camps used to train militants for Kashmir.``

``A Pakistani official interviewed recently described Mr. Sohail as a ``one-off case,`` and denied that Pakistani militants were showing up in Afghanistan.``

If the ubiquitious ISI could not locate a camp not too far from Islamabad, something`s surely wrong.

``Western diplomats in Kabul and Pakistani political analysts have said that Pakistan has continued to allow the Taliban to operate to retain influence in Afghanistan.``

Now did I hear a slap on your face??

Soulat and Gujju,

Really enjoying your statistical war with pieces of unapealing visuals thrown in :-)

As for India, the talk of fourth richest and all that is sheer nonsense.

As soon as one gets to the customs clearance on Delhi International, you can see officials with a criminal appetite for bribes. Be ready to be greeted with, ``Kya laya hai mere liye?``, ``bahut maal daba ke aaya hai``...For `business` people coming from middle-east and South-East Asia, their suitcases stacked with imported merchandise, it is a routine affair. The prices are pre-fixed. They even know the officers on duty and willingly offer them the gift they demanded last time. After clearing the green channel, you get into a dimly lit reception area with kiosks of pre-paid taxis, package tours and juice shops. The place is dirty, smelly and teeming with at least 5 relatives per visitor. There are shabbily dressed stalkers who would kill for ten Dollars, and philanderers who spit phlegm and paan on the corners. The departure is a shade better, but a far cry from anything in the West. The New Delhi railway station makes one feel bad about this stinking place being the capital of India. The filth and poverty is straight from a documentary depicting squalor and hunger of the third-world. The traffic outside Nizamuddin attests our status as the second most populous country in the world, so much for our claim to global dominance.

The stats only illustrate that there has been progress after reforms and opening of economy. We are still mired in poverty, ignorance, backwardness and illiteracy. There are islands of prosperity in a sea of hunger and deprivation. I know I sound like a communist, but this is the naked truth staring us in the face. The upward movement of the economy has accentuated the problem by highlighting the gap between rural poor and urban middle-class. We can either wax eloquent about the successes of Premji and Kiran Shaw, or try to educate the children of Kallu and Billa if not Kallu and Billa themselves. The latter is not possible if we close our eyes to pathetic performance of our successive governments who have squandered every opportunity to make us a better fed, better clad nation. The result is 1 of 3 Indians can`t read or write, and 1 in 4 live in abject poverty.