Train to Pakistan 2004 - Heading Back
Veeresh Malik August 1, 2004
#245 Posted by nikki7777 on August 16, 2004 3:09:19 pm
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#244 Posted by jang on August 16, 2004 11:36:06 am
#243 by kkkandk
i just stay away from unplugged so i did not notice.
i just stay away from unplugged so i did not notice.
#243 Posted by kkkandk on August 16, 2004 7:55:42 am
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#242 Posted by kkkandk on August 16, 2004 7:55:42 am
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#241 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 16, 2004 5:52:13 am
halur baaz for the record im not a `reporter` if your in karachi ever do drop into my office and i will tell you what i am
-- kkkandk -- glad to know you`re not into debates now with the loony fringe -- however i very much doubt it if your interest (or anyone else`s for that matter) in history or the search for feroz gandhi`s true identity can really be furthered by interacting on sites like this -- im afraid i cant help you on that -- the wise sage by the way should have known, since he is all knowing, that india also released three or was it two soldiers and not just pakistan -- i can see bc that the hate brigade always has new recruits for their misadventures on chowk -- bhot halur baazi hoti hai idhar na
-- kkkandk -- glad to know you`re not into debates now with the loony fringe -- however i very much doubt it if your interest (or anyone else`s for that matter) in history or the search for feroz gandhi`s true identity can really be furthered by interacting on sites like this -- im afraid i cant help you on that -- the wise sage by the way should have known, since he is all knowing, that india also released three or was it two soldiers and not just pakistan -- i can see bc that the hate brigade always has new recruits for their misadventures on chowk -- bhot halur baazi hoti hai idhar na
#240 Posted by jang on August 16, 2004 5:52:12 am
kkk cunum
what you are hoping to digup has no stink. indiras emergency was most obviously due to allahabad high-court. now, if you want to get some juicy stink, talk about how come the english-language free-press of india (the same which wrote a million indictments and judgements on narendra modi) was completely shut-up duringthe emergency. zip-up was total. some free-press when the newsprint was rationed by the govt.
what you are hoping to digup has no stink. indiras emergency was most obviously due to allahabad high-court. now, if you want to get some juicy stink, talk about how come the english-language free-press of india (the same which wrote a million indictments and judgements on narendra modi) was completely shut-up duringthe emergency. zip-up was total. some free-press when the newsprint was rationed by the govt.
#239 Posted by kkkandk on August 15, 2004 2:58:32 pm
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#238 Posted by rajsinghi1 on August 15, 2004 12:46:53 pm
Kkkandk
Post #236
I am glad to know that you found those excerpts informative.
As to the other questions/queries, well, they are mainly on the personal life of those people and I rather not talk about it, even when I may have some information , unless there is some point to be made or is in some particular context.
For now, would only say that there are lot of rumours. And many are just rumours only.
:)
Post #236
I am glad to know that you found those excerpts informative.
As to the other questions/queries, well, they are mainly on the personal life of those people and I rather not talk about it, even when I may have some information , unless there is some point to be made or is in some particular context.
For now, would only say that there are lot of rumours. And many are just rumours only.
:)
#237 Posted by kkkandk on August 15, 2004 10:21:01 am
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#236 Posted by kkkandk on August 15, 2004 10:21:01 am
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#235 Posted by nikki7777 on August 15, 2004 8:27:39 am
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#234 Posted by rajsinghi1 on August 15, 2004 8:27:39 am
Kkkandk
Following excerpts should shed more light and make things more clear with regard to whether Pt Nehru had hatred for Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose or not. Trust you will find these informative, and of interest...
Quote:
Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel and Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose, two stalwarts of India`s freedom movement, argued hard over the latter`s attempt to get re-elected as Congress president in 1939.
Patel and Mahatma Gandhi`s differences with Bose over his seeking re-election and other issues of policy have been described in detail in the series, Collected Works of Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel (Volume VIII), edited by P N Chopra.
The volume deals with correspondence Patel had with various leaders as an influential member of the Congress between January 1, 1939 and March 31, 1940.
Bose was adamant ot stand for re-election in view of the `progressive sharpening of the anti-imperialist struggle in India,` adding that the people felt `as in other free countries, the presidential election in India should be brought on the basis of definite problems and programmes.`
However, in a rejoinder, Sardar Patel along with Rajendra Prasad, J B Kripalini and other leaders said, `Hitherto presidential election had been unanimous. Subhasbabu has set up a new precedent.` They asked Bose to reconsider his decision and allow Dr Pattabhi Sitaramayya`s election be unanimous.
Bose refuted the contention and asked Patel and his colleagues in the Congress Working Committee not to take sides in an organised manner as it would be unfair. `If the president is to be elected by the delegates and not be nominated by influential members of the working committee, will Sardar Patel and other leaders withdraw their whip and leave it to the delegates to vote as they like?` Bose asked.
On January 24, 1939, Bose advised Patel not to divide the Congress by putting up Sitaramayya as a candidate after the withdrawal of Maulana Abul Kalam Azad from the race. The very next day, Patel wrote to Jawaharlal Nehru, asking him to issue a statement against Bose, if possible , chronicles the book.
`I have been nominated as a candidate from several provinces... And I have been receiving pressing requests from socialists as well as non-socialists urging me not to retire... It is possible that this impression of mine is not correct and that my re-election is not desired by the majority of delegates. But this could be verified only when the voting takes place on the 29th January and not earlier.` On January 29 he was re-elected Congress president by 203 votes, defeating Sitaramayya.
Soon after Patel, Maulana Azad, Rajendra Prasad and others resigned from the CWC, suggesting the new president be left free to nominate a new committee and frame his own programme.
The volume notes that Sarat Chandra Bose, Subhas Chandra`s brother, wrote a strong letter to Patel for allegedly carrying on a `malicious and vindictive propaganda against the rashtrapati.` Patel refuted that he had claimed Bose`s illness was `faked`. He later said Sarat Bose`s letter was written more in anger than in reason. `After all what answer one can give to such a passionate and abusive denunciation?` he asked.
The volume, which includes documents from official and non-official sources including the private papers of Sardar Patel and confidential records of the Intelligence Bureau, describes the antagonism that existed between Patel, the `iron man of India`, and Bose.
Patel wanted Bose ousted from the presidentship of the Congress and suggested to Dr Rajendra Prasad, in a letter on July 12, 1939, to issue a show cause notice to Netaji for violating the All-India Congress Committee decision on prohibition. Patel found fault with Bose for his attack on the prohibition scheme of the Bombay government.
He pointed out, `the abolition of the drink evil is one of the foremost planks in the Congress platform... It is an irony that Bose now opposes this programme.` Patel especially criticised Bose`s meeting with Muslim League leader Mohammad Ali Jinnah. However, soon after meeting Jinnah, Bose communicated his views to Mahatma Gandhi.
The volume also brings out how Patel cajoled, flattered and even threatened and never failed to air his grievances against the top leaders of the day including Mahatma Gandhi.
With the `internal strife` in the Congress reaching its climax during the Tripuri session, held in March 1939, Bose later resigned from the presidentship and formed the Forward Bloc with his supporters in May.
Following excerpts should shed more light and make things more clear with regard to whether Pt Nehru had hatred for Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose or not. Trust you will find these informative, and of interest...
Quote:
Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel and Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose, two stalwarts of India`s freedom movement, argued hard over the latter`s attempt to get re-elected as Congress president in 1939.
Patel and Mahatma Gandhi`s differences with Bose over his seeking re-election and other issues of policy have been described in detail in the series, Collected Works of Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel (Volume VIII), edited by P N Chopra.
The volume deals with correspondence Patel had with various leaders as an influential member of the Congress between January 1, 1939 and March 31, 1940.
Bose was adamant ot stand for re-election in view of the `progressive sharpening of the anti-imperialist struggle in India,` adding that the people felt `as in other free countries, the presidential election in India should be brought on the basis of definite problems and programmes.`
However, in a rejoinder, Sardar Patel along with Rajendra Prasad, J B Kripalini and other leaders said, `Hitherto presidential election had been unanimous. Subhasbabu has set up a new precedent.` They asked Bose to reconsider his decision and allow Dr Pattabhi Sitaramayya`s election be unanimous.
Bose refuted the contention and asked Patel and his colleagues in the Congress Working Committee not to take sides in an organised manner as it would be unfair. `If the president is to be elected by the delegates and not be nominated by influential members of the working committee, will Sardar Patel and other leaders withdraw their whip and leave it to the delegates to vote as they like?` Bose asked.
On January 24, 1939, Bose advised Patel not to divide the Congress by putting up Sitaramayya as a candidate after the withdrawal of Maulana Abul Kalam Azad from the race. The very next day, Patel wrote to Jawaharlal Nehru, asking him to issue a statement against Bose, if possible , chronicles the book.
`I have been nominated as a candidate from several provinces... And I have been receiving pressing requests from socialists as well as non-socialists urging me not to retire... It is possible that this impression of mine is not correct and that my re-election is not desired by the majority of delegates. But this could be verified only when the voting takes place on the 29th January and not earlier.` On January 29 he was re-elected Congress president by 203 votes, defeating Sitaramayya.
Soon after Patel, Maulana Azad, Rajendra Prasad and others resigned from the CWC, suggesting the new president be left free to nominate a new committee and frame his own programme.
The volume notes that Sarat Chandra Bose, Subhas Chandra`s brother, wrote a strong letter to Patel for allegedly carrying on a `malicious and vindictive propaganda against the rashtrapati.` Patel refuted that he had claimed Bose`s illness was `faked`. He later said Sarat Bose`s letter was written more in anger than in reason. `After all what answer one can give to such a passionate and abusive denunciation?` he asked.
The volume, which includes documents from official and non-official sources including the private papers of Sardar Patel and confidential records of the Intelligence Bureau, describes the antagonism that existed between Patel, the `iron man of India`, and Bose.
Patel wanted Bose ousted from the presidentship of the Congress and suggested to Dr Rajendra Prasad, in a letter on July 12, 1939, to issue a show cause notice to Netaji for violating the All-India Congress Committee decision on prohibition. Patel found fault with Bose for his attack on the prohibition scheme of the Bombay government.
He pointed out, `the abolition of the drink evil is one of the foremost planks in the Congress platform... It is an irony that Bose now opposes this programme.` Patel especially criticised Bose`s meeting with Muslim League leader Mohammad Ali Jinnah. However, soon after meeting Jinnah, Bose communicated his views to Mahatma Gandhi.
The volume also brings out how Patel cajoled, flattered and even threatened and never failed to air his grievances against the top leaders of the day including Mahatma Gandhi.
With the `internal strife` in the Congress reaching its climax during the Tripuri session, held in March 1939, Bose later resigned from the presidentship and formed the Forward Bloc with his supporters in May.
#233 Posted by kkkandk on August 15, 2004 5:45:39 am
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#232 Posted by kkkandk on August 15, 2004 5:32:20 am
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#231 Posted by rajsinghi1 on August 15, 2004 5:31:47 am
Veeresh
Post #226
Thanks for the response.
Quote:
what I mean is that over the last few centuries (honourable exceptions aside) the rulers of our part of the world have, in their wisdom, sold out cheap to whoever chose to come our way either by sea or by land, by sword or by trade. We may wish to segregate them into different groups - monarchs, generals, democratically elected rulers, mind-benders, accountants, the works - but fact remains the same.
As of now, interest is in the part which says democratically elected rulers of India. How have they sold (a questionable term in iteself) cheaply? I would like to see some basis or example on which the above statement is made.
Quote:
Currently we blame the generals in Pakistan and the politicians in India, but would it have been much different if it was otherwise?
Maybe you want to say something but holding back. Otherwise, above seems more on the lines of trying to be equal equal (India/Pakistan) than anything else. Are you saying if situation was reverse (Pakistan had democratically elected rulers and India had Generals as rulers) ?
Post #226
Thanks for the response.
Quote:
what I mean is that over the last few centuries (honourable exceptions aside) the rulers of our part of the world have, in their wisdom, sold out cheap to whoever chose to come our way either by sea or by land, by sword or by trade. We may wish to segregate them into different groups - monarchs, generals, democratically elected rulers, mind-benders, accountants, the works - but fact remains the same.
As of now, interest is in the part which says democratically elected rulers of India. How have they sold (a questionable term in iteself) cheaply? I would like to see some basis or example on which the above statement is made.
Quote:
Currently we blame the generals in Pakistan and the politicians in India, but would it have been much different if it was otherwise?
Maybe you want to say something but holding back. Otherwise, above seems more on the lines of trying to be equal equal (India/Pakistan) than anything else. Are you saying if situation was reverse (Pakistan had democratically elected rulers and India had Generals as rulers) ?
#230 Posted by rajsinghi1 on August 15, 2004 5:31:47 am
Kkkandk
Post # 224
Let me try to answer one of your queries.
No, Pt Nehru did not have any hatred for Netaji S C Bose. There has been serious difference of opinions. And it was not just between Pt Nehru and Netaji.
It may surprise many that real differences were between Sardar Patel and Netaji and it was Sardar Patel who did not want Netaji to become President of AICC and it was he who told Pt Nehru to use his influence in AICC and work towards Netaji not becoming President of AICC. And this, when Sardar Patel himself had such big sway, influence in AICC.
I do recall reading about this sometime ago. I may try to find some material on this, later.
Post # 224
Let me try to answer one of your queries.
No, Pt Nehru did not have any hatred for Netaji S C Bose. There has been serious difference of opinions. And it was not just between Pt Nehru and Netaji.
It may surprise many that real differences were between Sardar Patel and Netaji and it was Sardar Patel who did not want Netaji to become President of AICC and it was he who told Pt Nehru to use his influence in AICC and work towards Netaji not becoming President of AICC. And this, when Sardar Patel himself had such big sway, influence in AICC.
I do recall reading about this sometime ago. I may try to find some material on this, later.
#229 Posted by halur on August 15, 2004 12:04:08 am
<
Indians have many crosses to bear, but their women need not go around in burlap sacks.
You care about the reputation of the burqua brigade, mumbai chicks are way beyond your league.
Indians have many crosses to bear, but their women need not go around in burlap sacks.
You care about the reputation of the burqua brigade, mumbai chicks are way beyond your league.
#228 Posted by ballukhan on August 14, 2004 11:15:17 pm
Chowk Staff
Please note! Freddie (BC) is back to terrorize the board!!
Please note! Freddie (BC) is back to terrorize the board!!
#227 Posted by halur on August 14, 2004 11:15:16 pm
Don`t get ahead of yourself . At the Olympics, beef eating pakistanis are as pathetic or even more so than the dal eating indians. the burqa brigade does not even participate..
As for as the good looks, save it for the burqa brigade, they take what they can get. the saree clad regiment uses it`s brains..
As for as the good looks, save it for the burqa brigade, they take what they can get. the saree clad regiment uses it`s brains..
#226 Posted by veeresh on August 14, 2004 9:35:42 pm
rajsinghi1/218 what I mean is that over the last few centuries (honourable exceptions aside) the rulers of our part of the world have, in their wisdom, sold out cheap to whoever chose to come our way either by sea or by land, by sword or by trade. We may wish to segregate them into different groups - monarchs, generals, democratically elected rulers, mind-benders, accountants, the works - but fact remains the same.
Currently we blame the generals in Pakistan and the politicians in India, but would it have been much different if it was otherwise?
In that context, research on who hates/loves Hindus/Muslims is kind of a non-issue?
kkkandk/On the issue of imprisoned soldiers from India, going back to 1971, may I suggest you search the Internet? Pakistani prisoners were released, but due to a variety of reasons, the Indians never were. This includes soldiers who were photographed in Pakistani custody after well after 1971 but never released. During my last trip to Pakistan I heard more than enough rumours on this subject in `Pindi. Interestingly, the Pakistani Government had clearly stated after the Agra talks that there were simply no Indian POWs in their captivity, but now they released two who were there in Pakistan from 1999. This whole issue has become what looks like an ego thing. The Indian media writes on it frequently; the Pakistani media doesn`t.
Currently we blame the generals in Pakistan and the politicians in India, but would it have been much different if it was otherwise?
In that context, research on who hates/loves Hindus/Muslims is kind of a non-issue?
kkkandk/On the issue of imprisoned soldiers from India, going back to 1971, may I suggest you search the Internet? Pakistani prisoners were released, but due to a variety of reasons, the Indians never were. This includes soldiers who were photographed in Pakistani custody after well after 1971 but never released. During my last trip to Pakistan I heard more than enough rumours on this subject in `Pindi. Interestingly, the Pakistani Government had clearly stated after the Agra talks that there were simply no Indian POWs in their captivity, but now they released two who were there in Pakistan from 1999. This whole issue has become what looks like an ego thing. The Indian media writes on it frequently; the Pakistani media doesn`t.
#225 Posted by kkkandk on August 14, 2004 5:23:20 pm
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#224 Posted by kkkandk on August 14, 2004 3:20:01 pm
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#223 Posted by kkkandk on August 14, 2004 3:20:00 pm
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#222 Posted by halur on August 14, 2004 1:52:06 pm
mumbaichick,
You are to,quote to quote our resident Dawn reporter ``filled with hate``.
-- Pakistanis look like Adonis. Before you gigle, think about Alexander`s army. What do you think they ddid uring the long hut summer?
-- Indians did not get the benefit of this miscgenation.
-- Ergo, the good looks of the pakistanis.
-- No pakistani women can ever, ever prefer indian men to pakistani women.I mean how can one eat daal /roti when one is used to beef steak ?
-- indian females abandon dignity and self-respect when a pakistani male is nearby
Surely u write after having been frustrated in this pursuit?
You are to,quote to quote our resident Dawn reporter ``filled with hate``.
-- Pakistanis look like Adonis. Before you gigle, think about Alexander`s army. What do you think they ddid uring the long hut summer?
-- Indians did not get the benefit of this miscgenation.
-- Ergo, the good looks of the pakistanis.
-- No pakistani women can ever, ever prefer indian men to pakistani women.I mean how can one eat daal /roti when one is used to beef steak ?
-- indian females abandon dignity and self-respect when a pakistani male is nearby
Surely u write after having been frustrated in this pursuit?
#221 Posted by mumbaichick on August 14, 2004 12:38:40 pm
KKK are you trying to somehow prove that Feroz Gandhi was a Muslim and that Rajiv and Sanjay were half-Muslim and that Indira Gandhi could not stay away from Muslim men? That may very well be (it was her own personal issue), but she sure showed her liking for Paki Muslim men by imprisoning almost 100,000 in 1971. However, if she was that partial to such men, why did she release them back to Pakiland?
Stop your so-called research or I will be telling you stories about the thousands of Muslim women who refused to be ``rescued`` back to Pakiland and chose to live their lives with Sikh husbands during the partition days. It is better to leave these things under the covers.
Stop your so-called research or I will be telling you stories about the thousands of Muslim women who refused to be ``rescued`` back to Pakiland and chose to live their lives with Sikh husbands during the partition days. It is better to leave these things under the covers.
#220 Posted by kkkandk on August 14, 2004 7:01:12 am
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#219 Posted by rajsinghi1 on August 14, 2004 1:51:57 am
Veeresh
Post #217
Quote:
And tradition has it that our rulers, whatsoever they be, kings, generals, politicians, mind-benders, civil servants, et al. . . they all seem to sell their backsides rather too cheap.
Please elaborate. Above quoted part is not clear.
Post #217
Quote:
And tradition has it that our rulers, whatsoever they be, kings, generals, politicians, mind-benders, civil servants, et al. . . they all seem to sell their backsides rather too cheap.
Please elaborate. Above quoted part is not clear.
#218 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 14, 2004 1:51:57 am
kkkandk -- yaar im warning u for your own sake -- no point in debates with morons passing off as wannabe intellectuals -- their hate doesnt allow it -- did u see the amitabh-nadeem board and remarks by some of the indian interactors? i believe it was mr rahulmal who gave the rather dandy suggestion that omair alavi (the writer of the piece) should have first written an article on pakistan`s film industry so that the indians on chowk, who according to mr mal didnt even know that movies are made in pakistan, could get a bit of a background -- how positively quaint ! hahaha - i mean barachota do you really want to engage in a discourse with such misinformed lunatics? do you?
#217 Posted by veeresh on August 13, 2004 7:00:56 pm
kkkandk/211, Sirji, what I am saying is that history as well as that amazing lizard known as ``truth`` tend to be written by the victors AND in addition tend to vary to fit in with the environment.
So I do not think truths will ever be known.
Yes, I did stumble upon a lot of ``inputs`` when I was researching Netaji Subhash Bose.
I don`t know about ``The Sword of Truth``, but, yes, vast dollops of truth emerge from what I would call the Karachi/Bombay and Lahore/Amritsar axii.
These truths are, then, re-written to suit Delhi & Islamabad. Thus leading to a constant state of flux and no conclusions.
That`s what I think. I hope that satisfies you? Though I think it doesn`t.
As I said before, traditions out-perform history towards attaining logical deductions.
And tradition has it that our rulers, whatsoever they be, kings, generals, politicians, mind-benders, civil servants, et al. . . they all seem to sell their backsides rather too cheap.
Now, fit that in with any history, and see what direction the truth takes?
Incidentally, since you seem to hide a lot of awareness, be a good person and do some research on the truth behind Indian soldiers locked up in Pakistan for decades, and bring that to closure, too, if possible?
So I do not think truths will ever be known.
Yes, I did stumble upon a lot of ``inputs`` when I was researching Netaji Subhash Bose.
I don`t know about ``The Sword of Truth``, but, yes, vast dollops of truth emerge from what I would call the Karachi/Bombay and Lahore/Amritsar axii.
These truths are, then, re-written to suit Delhi & Islamabad. Thus leading to a constant state of flux and no conclusions.
That`s what I think. I hope that satisfies you? Though I think it doesn`t.
As I said before, traditions out-perform history towards attaining logical deductions.
And tradition has it that our rulers, whatsoever they be, kings, generals, politicians, mind-benders, civil servants, et al. . . they all seem to sell their backsides rather too cheap.
Now, fit that in with any history, and see what direction the truth takes?
Incidentally, since you seem to hide a lot of awareness, be a good person and do some research on the truth behind Indian soldiers locked up in Pakistan for decades, and bring that to closure, too, if possible?
#216 Posted by nikki7777 on August 13, 2004 6:41:43 pm
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#215 Posted by kkkandk on August 13, 2004 4:29:14 pm
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#214 Posted by kkkandk on August 13, 2004 4:22:45 pm
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#213 Posted by nikki7777 on August 13, 2004 4:22:44 pm
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#212 Posted by kkkandk on August 13, 2004 3:19:27 pm
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#211 Posted by jang on August 13, 2004 3:19:27 pm
kkkandk
``I just want to know:
1. What was Feroz Gandhis real name before he changed it?
2. Why did he have to change his name?
``
heh heh 99.999% people in india wont even know who is feroze gandhi. i grew up thinking that she is Mohandas Gandhis daughter. heh heh heh.
so pick up something of more current interest..you wont find many takers on this one.
``I just want to know:
1. What was Feroz Gandhis real name before he changed it?
2. Why did he have to change his name?
``
heh heh 99.999% people in india wont even know who is feroze gandhi. i grew up thinking that she is Mohandas Gandhis daughter. heh heh heh.
so pick up something of more current interest..you wont find many takers on this one.
#210 Posted by kaurasach on August 13, 2004 3:19:26 pm
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#209 Posted by veeresh on August 13, 2004 1:07:55 pm
kkkandk/various - sirji, I empathise with your interest and search for historical truths.
However, in my short life, so far, I have learnt that there is only one truth, and that is, sorry for being morbid, death. Now death being only possible in the future, stands to reason that the truth is also somewhere in the future.
Conversely, history by definition, therefore, is a lie.
Now, what therefore attains higher value : history or tradition, as far as fascination is concerned?
Please consider - the dynasties in modern India & Pakistan seem to share certain ``us & them`` traditions with higher levels of commonality than do lineages. These traditions are then, also, shared with dynasties elsewhere.
So, as far as the truth behind dynasties goes, I don`t know.
BTW, I think Omar is worried about Dawn supplicants. Oh well . . .
However, in my short life, so far, I have learnt that there is only one truth, and that is, sorry for being morbid, death. Now death being only possible in the future, stands to reason that the truth is also somewhere in the future.
Conversely, history by definition, therefore, is a lie.
Now, what therefore attains higher value : history or tradition, as far as fascination is concerned?
Please consider - the dynasties in modern India & Pakistan seem to share certain ``us & them`` traditions with higher levels of commonality than do lineages. These traditions are then, also, shared with dynasties elsewhere.
So, as far as the truth behind dynasties goes, I don`t know.
BTW, I think Omar is worried about Dawn supplicants. Oh well . . .
#208 Posted by kkkandk on August 13, 2004 11:51:10 am
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#207 Posted by kkkandk on August 13, 2004 11:51:10 am
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#206 Posted by halur on August 13, 2004 11:05:13 am
<
Then be serious. No biography of Indira Gandhi mentions that Feroze gandhi was a muslim called Feroz Khan. And many of these biographies are written by westerners, who have no motivation to deceive. In fact, if somebody could prove this, they would have a best-seller on their hands.
Then be serious. No biography of Indira Gandhi mentions that Feroze gandhi was a muslim called Feroz Khan. And many of these biographies are written by westerners, who have no motivation to deceive. In fact, if somebody could prove this, they would have a best-seller on their hands.
#205 Posted by veeresh on August 13, 2004 10:13:26 am
Omar/199, sirji, please get closer to the art forms of triple puns and/or tongue in cheek?
As for the `Pindi buidlings, who was talking about the poor fatherless ISI? What do you take me for, such a simple Simon?
+++
kkkandk/various - I can see where your fascination with lienage is coming from. Used to be important in India, too, at one time. Probably still is, but we tend to elect them too.
+++
For a moment, assume the leaders in India & Pakistan had been different. Would it have made much difference to most people, 6 decades on? I don`t think so.
+++
As for the rest, Happy Independence Day to all of us and Happy Birthday to The Chowk, too.
On with the pedaas, the merlot and the speeches.
As for the `Pindi buidlings, who was talking about the poor fatherless ISI? What do you take me for, such a simple Simon?
+++
kkkandk/various - I can see where your fascination with lienage is coming from. Used to be important in India, too, at one time. Probably still is, but we tend to elect them too.
+++
For a moment, assume the leaders in India & Pakistan had been different. Would it have made much difference to most people, 6 decades on? I don`t think so.
+++
As for the rest, Happy Independence Day to all of us and Happy Birthday to The Chowk, too.
On with the pedaas, the merlot and the speeches.
#204 Posted by kkkandk on August 13, 2004 9:50:31 am
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#203 Posted by kaurasach on August 12, 2004 9:12:33 am
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#202 Posted by kkkandk on August 12, 2004 7:27:14 am
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#201 Posted by kkkandk on August 12, 2004 7:27:14 am
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#200 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 12, 2004 6:18:26 am
actually veeresh jee, since you say you know the owners so well, why not route your letters through them, after all what would be a better way to get them printed
references? actually i didnt really read the piece veeresh sahib -- actually came to send a message to barachota -- waisay the ISI HQs are not in rawalpindi
references? actually i didnt really read the piece veeresh sahib -- actually came to send a message to barachota -- waisay the ISI HQs are not in rawalpindi
#199 Posted by Layman on August 12, 2004 6:18:26 am
kkkandk #189:
``In their greed to gather more votes, the BJP and the Indian PM decided to formalize their nuclear standing with a series of blasts.``
In the interests of accuracy, I have to say that you are wrong. The BJP had nuclear testing in its manifesto both in 1996 (13-day govt) and 1998. There was no need to gather more votes in May 1998 (period of the tests), since the party had just been elected to power two months earlier (in March 1998).
``In their greed to gather more votes, the BJP and the Indian PM decided to formalize their nuclear standing with a series of blasts.``
In the interests of accuracy, I have to say that you are wrong. The BJP had nuclear testing in its manifesto both in 1996 (13-day govt) and 1998. There was no need to gather more votes in May 1998 (period of the tests), since the party had just been elected to power two months earlier (in March 1998).
#198 Posted by veeresh on August 11, 2004 10:13:57 pm
Omar/193 - what about my letters to the Editor at Dawn, would you be inclined to assist, considering all that we`ve been through together?
And I continue to be heart-broken.
I hope at least you have figured out the references to certain buildings in Rawalpindi, now that the soldiers have been released? But what about the rest, what about them?
And I continue to be heart-broken.
I hope at least you have figured out the references to certain buildings in Rawalpindi, now that the soldiers have been released? But what about the rest, what about them?
#197 Posted by harish_hyd on August 11, 2004 8:29:21 pm
#193 by omar_r_quraishi
[-- kkkandk, aleph thinks that using big words makes his arguments better --]
Never seen you refute his arguments. Are ``Paki-bashers`` to conclude that you don`t understand ``big words``? Or is it because you have no counter to offer?
[-- kkkandk, aleph thinks that using big words makes his arguments better --]
Never seen you refute his arguments. Are ``Paki-bashers`` to conclude that you don`t understand ``big words``? Or is it because you have no counter to offer?
#196 Posted by nikki7777 on August 11, 2004 4:01:16 pm
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#195 Posted by nikki7777 on August 11, 2004 4:01:16 pm
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#194 Posted by kaurasach on August 11, 2004 6:29:28 am
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#193 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 11, 2004 6:01:19 am
veeresh jee oh plz dont be -- kkkandk, aleph thinks that using big words makes his arguments better -- and by the way bc, you`re more than welcome to email me directly in case you need any letters printed -- in fact these days work has increased because of a shared responsibility for the letters page --
nikki i can see that u still havent grown up -- oh well, there is time maybe....
nikki i can see that u still havent grown up -- oh well, there is time maybe....
#192 Posted by veeresh on August 10, 2004 8:38:44 pm
kkkandk/183 - your references to sanda, were they by typo or by design?
Omar/180 - oh, I am heart-broken.
Omar/180 - oh, I am heart-broken.
#191 Posted by halur on August 10, 2004 8:22:12 pm
In the eyes of the world, true. Every article about indo-pak in the western press begins or ends with `nuclear armed rivals...`. So yes, pakistan`s tests in response to india`s conferred a kind of international diplomatic parity.
But, India is a status quo state. Pakistan is the revanchist one. Nuclear weapons tend to cement the status quo. So maybe the loss is not entirely india`s.
#190 Posted by harish_hyd on August 10, 2004 8:22:11 pm
#189 by kkkandk
I don`t think Alephnull was talking only about military parity.
I don`t think Alephnull was talking only about military parity.
#189 Posted by kkkandk on August 10, 2004 5:31:09 pm
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#188 Posted by kkkandk on August 10, 2004 5:31:09 pm
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#187 Posted by nikki7777 on August 10, 2004 4:07:17 pm
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#186 Posted by kkkandk on August 10, 2004 1:05:02 pm
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#185 Posted by jang on August 10, 2004 12:32:00 pm
this board has been dead for a while and needs a burial.
#184 Posted by nikki7777 on August 10, 2004 12:31:59 pm
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#183 Posted by kkkandk on August 10, 2004 8:38:18 am
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#182 Posted by kkkandk on August 10, 2004 7:31:05 am
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#181 Posted by kkkandk on August 10, 2004 7:31:04 am
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#180 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 10, 2004 6:39:29 am
well kkkandk (aka bc) -- thanks -- yes i think i did disappear at around the same time as her, which is the only thing i think i would have in common with sadna -- well actually work has increased and i dont think i have the time to communicate with a bunch who are single-mindedly driven by hate/BS and have little tolerance/respect for the views of others -- so i dont think i will be coming back in that sense, but yes to read the articles once in a while is okay -- veeresh sahib -- i m afraid i have no comments to offer on your latest `masterpiece`
#179 Posted by jang on August 10, 2004 6:39:11 am
kkk
i was talking about m5 sun-machine gun (lowly m16 is not fit for a pure-blood surayavanshi turki like you), and not the car. And dont listen to Jee TV, they sometimes forget the conversion rates, and then there is all the confusion bet crore and billion etc.
so, anyways, you should post some more stuff on chowk as practice so you can use it later in vidhan sabha. again reminding you to keep your mouth shut (well ok you are allowed a few letters to the editor in Dawn) for your safety untill you cross the borders.
i was talking about m5 sun-machine gun (lowly m16 is not fit for a pure-blood surayavanshi turki like you), and not the car. And dont listen to Jee TV, they sometimes forget the conversion rates, and then there is all the confusion bet crore and billion etc.
so, anyways, you should post some more stuff on chowk as practice so you can use it later in vidhan sabha. again reminding you to keep your mouth shut (well ok you are allowed a few letters to the editor in Dawn) for your safety untill you cross the borders.
#178 Posted by arjun_m on August 10, 2004 6:39:11 am
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#177 Posted by kkkandk on August 10, 2004 6:39:10 am
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#176 Posted by AlephNull on August 9, 2004 6:14:58 pm
It’s heartening to see the leading self-styled Pakistani ‘liberals’ turning out in numbers on this board. I’d begun to fear that they’d turned tail and fled from Chowk utterly dejected by the management’s total failure to exercise ‘editorial control’ or curb the activities of ‘hate-mongering’ Indians.
If Pakistanis find competition with India debilitating and unsustainable, they’re most welcome to abandon that exercise in futility. Indians will certainly not stop the Pakistani establishment from dropping out of a ‘race’ that now exists more in Pakistan’s official ideology than in reality. Trying to maintain ‘parity’ with India was a decision that Pakistan’s rulers consciously made many decades ago. Parity, together with India-Pakistan hyphenation, seems to have become so ingrained in Pakistani mentalities as to be regarded as a Pakistani entitlement which India and other world powers have an obligation to maintain. Coming to terms with a situation where the disparity between India and Pakistan in economic strength, civilizational influence, and military power, continues to grow with no end in sight, would be quite a wrench for Pakistanis brought up on a diet of the old expectations. I weep for these people; I deeply sympathize with their plight; but they’re going to have to bite the bullet some day, and the sooner they do it the better for their peace of mind and eventual well-being.
The alternative, which Pakistani ‘liberals’ favour, of India restricting the growth of its own power to accommodate Pakistani limitations and protect Pakistan from loss of face, is rooted in those ‘equal-equal’/ ‘both countries’/ ‘India-Pakistan’ delusions. India has a far wider range of concerns than Pakistan and has to play on a bigger stage. Pakistan has been and continues to be used as a proxy by major powers such as China who are India’s real competitors and have an obvious interest in placing constraints on what India does. Shrill whines from Pakistani ‘liberals’ about how India cannot really afford its military establishment ought to be regarded with cynicism and derision.
And finally, if self-styled Pakistani ‘liberal’ types are so hung up on ‘self-determination’, they can show the courage of their convictions by campaigning for freedom for Baluchistan. Baluch nationalists have been recently been showing how much they appreciate being colonized by the Pakistan Army and by Pakistani Punjabis who exploit the province’s natural resources, corral vast tracts of land, set up cantonments, and grab prime real estate and jobs, with little or nothing going to the locals. After Pakistan has retreated from Balochistan, the liberals might do the same with the Northern Areas, Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, and Sindh. That might give them a smidgen of the credibility that they completely lack today.
If Pakistanis find competition with India debilitating and unsustainable, they’re most welcome to abandon that exercise in futility. Indians will certainly not stop the Pakistani establishment from dropping out of a ‘race’ that now exists more in Pakistan’s official ideology than in reality. Trying to maintain ‘parity’ with India was a decision that Pakistan’s rulers consciously made many decades ago. Parity, together with India-Pakistan hyphenation, seems to have become so ingrained in Pakistani mentalities as to be regarded as a Pakistani entitlement which India and other world powers have an obligation to maintain. Coming to terms with a situation where the disparity between India and Pakistan in economic strength, civilizational influence, and military power, continues to grow with no end in sight, would be quite a wrench for Pakistanis brought up on a diet of the old expectations. I weep for these people; I deeply sympathize with their plight; but they’re going to have to bite the bullet some day, and the sooner they do it the better for their peace of mind and eventual well-being.
The alternative, which Pakistani ‘liberals’ favour, of India restricting the growth of its own power to accommodate Pakistani limitations and protect Pakistan from loss of face, is rooted in those ‘equal-equal’/ ‘both countries’/ ‘India-Pakistan’ delusions. India has a far wider range of concerns than Pakistan and has to play on a bigger stage. Pakistan has been and continues to be used as a proxy by major powers such as China who are India’s real competitors and have an obvious interest in placing constraints on what India does. Shrill whines from Pakistani ‘liberals’ about how India cannot really afford its military establishment ought to be regarded with cynicism and derision.
And finally, if self-styled Pakistani ‘liberal’ types are so hung up on ‘self-determination’, they can show the courage of their convictions by campaigning for freedom for Baluchistan. Baluch nationalists have been recently been showing how much they appreciate being colonized by the Pakistan Army and by Pakistani Punjabis who exploit the province’s natural resources, corral vast tracts of land, set up cantonments, and grab prime real estate and jobs, with little or nothing going to the locals. After Pakistan has retreated from Balochistan, the liberals might do the same with the Northern Areas, Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, and Sindh. That might give them a smidgen of the credibility that they completely lack today.
#175 Posted by arjun_m on August 9, 2004 4:03:08 pm
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#174 Posted by kkkandk on August 9, 2004 4:03:08 pm
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#173 Posted by nikki7777 on August 9, 2004 4:03:07 pm
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#172 Posted by jang on August 9, 2004 1:44:10 pm
bara
romor has it that javed was paying his respects to resolve some problems wiht Bare Bhai (Dawood Ibrahim) who is offcourse enjoying pakistani hospitality complete with halwa-puri. bare bhaisab offcourse enjoys official halwa inspite of being one of the most prominent mafia don of that part is because of his contributions in hawala for the deeni-jihadis. needless to say that he is such a namak-haram that he will definately not get admission even to hell, although he may enjoy his stay in clifton.
anyways, so as i was saying, you can safely come to hindoostan just like many of your compadres, and make any political statements, even separatists ones like those hurriyatee Jamat guys on pakstani payroll because india is a democracy etc. no problem. just make sure not ever to say Jiye Sind in Karachi else either the mqm or jamati will use you for target practice while riding pillion.
and dont expect the govt to come to rescue for protecting freedom of speech etc, remember no one knows what happened to that stupid traitor MNA from PML who vanished.
also, may i recommend and M-5? M-16 is for chowkidars standing guard outside the sandbag fortifications so that car-bombers dont show up more than once a month. M-5 is far more stylish.
romor has it that javed was paying his respects to resolve some problems wiht Bare Bhai (Dawood Ibrahim) who is offcourse enjoying pakistani hospitality complete with halwa-puri. bare bhaisab offcourse enjoys official halwa inspite of being one of the most prominent mafia don of that part is because of his contributions in hawala for the deeni-jihadis. needless to say that he is such a namak-haram that he will definately not get admission even to hell, although he may enjoy his stay in clifton.
anyways, so as i was saying, you can safely come to hindoostan just like many of your compadres, and make any political statements, even separatists ones like those hurriyatee Jamat guys on pakstani payroll because india is a democracy etc. no problem. just make sure not ever to say Jiye Sind in Karachi else either the mqm or jamati will use you for target practice while riding pillion.
and dont expect the govt to come to rescue for protecting freedom of speech etc, remember no one knows what happened to that stupid traitor MNA from PML who vanished.
also, may i recommend and M-5? M-16 is for chowkidars standing guard outside the sandbag fortifications so that car-bombers dont show up more than once a month. M-5 is far more stylish.
#171 Posted by kkkandk on August 9, 2004 11:10:39 am
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#170 Posted by kkkandk on August 9, 2004 11:02:40 am
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#169 Posted by kkkandk on August 9, 2004 11:02:40 am
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#168 Posted by jang on August 9, 2004 10:09:54 am
#164 by kkkandk on August 9, 2004 7:16am PT
<<<
Bara, this is a well-expressed opinion, however at a less effective forum. There are some more apropriate forums available in India, which you can avail.
1. 1 Lok-Sabha
2. 1 Rajya Sabha
3. Print media in english and vernacular (and internet), TV-Radio in english and vernacular
4. 26 + Vidhan Sabhas, including the one in Srinagar.
5. 1000+ Municipal Corporation assemblies
6. 100000+, Zilla Parishads
7. 1000000+ Gram Panchayats
And you will find indians very accomodating, if you come without an AK47 or a granade launcher. They may even offer you some Veg. Jaipuri because of your Rajastani heritage.
Proof? Here, even in the thick of an on-going election Campaign in his stronghold maharashtra, tiger thakrey entertains visitors. You will enjoy the picture very much.
http://us.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/30bal.htm
<<<
Bara, this is a well-expressed opinion, however at a less effective forum. There are some more apropriate forums available in India, which you can avail.
1. 1 Lok-Sabha
2. 1 Rajya Sabha
3. Print media in english and vernacular (and internet), TV-Radio in english and vernacular
4. 26 + Vidhan Sabhas, including the one in Srinagar.
5. 1000+ Municipal Corporation assemblies
6. 100000+, Zilla Parishads
7. 1000000+ Gram Panchayats
And you will find indians very accomodating, if you come without an AK47 or a granade launcher. They may even offer you some Veg. Jaipuri because of your Rajastani heritage.
Proof? Here, even in the thick of an on-going election Campaign in his stronghold maharashtra, tiger thakrey entertains visitors. You will enjoy the picture very much.
http://us.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/30bal.htm
#167 Posted by kkkandk on August 9, 2004 10:09:43 am
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#166 Posted by nikki7777 on August 9, 2004 10:09:43 am
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#165 Posted by nikki7777 on August 9, 2004 10:09:42 am
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#164 Posted by kkkandk on August 9, 2004 7:16:00 am
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#163 Posted by kkkandk on August 9, 2004 7:16:00 am
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#162 Posted by kkkandk on August 9, 2004 7:16:00 am
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#161 Posted by kkkandk on August 9, 2004 7:16:00 am
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#160 Posted by nikki7777 on August 9, 2004 7:16:00 am
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#159 Posted by kkkandk on August 9, 2004 7:16:00 am
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#158 Posted by kkkandk on August 9, 2004 7:16:00 am
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#157 Posted by veeresh on August 9, 2004 6:18:39 am
Omar/155 - hi Omar, welcome back, how are you? How did you like my latest episode, I really would appreciate your views.
Interim.
Here is one I got off the InterNet for you on the subject of Sahara Forests:- A large, well established, Canadian lumber camp advertised that they were looking for a good Lumberjack. The very next day, a skinny little bearded man in a turban showed up at the camp with his axe, and knocked on the head lumberjacks` door.
The head lumberjack took one look at the little man and told him to leave. ``Just give me a chance to show you what I can do,`` said the skinny man. ``Okay, see that giant redwood over there?`` said the lumberjack. ``Take your axe and go cut it down.`` The skinny man headed for the tree, and in five minutes he was back knocking on the lumberjack`s door.
``I cut the tree down,`` said the man. The lumberjack couldn`t believe his eyes and said, ``Where did you get the skill to chop down trees like that?`` ``In the Sahara Forest,`` replied the puny man. ``You mean the Sahara Desert,`` said the lumberjack. The little man laughed and answered back...
``Oh sure, that`s what they call it now!``
+++
Interim.
Here is one I got off the InterNet for you on the subject of Sahara Forests:- A large, well established, Canadian lumber camp advertised that they were looking for a good Lumberjack. The very next day, a skinny little bearded man in a turban showed up at the camp with his axe, and knocked on the head lumberjacks` door.
The head lumberjack took one look at the little man and told him to leave. ``Just give me a chance to show you what I can do,`` said the skinny man. ``Okay, see that giant redwood over there?`` said the lumberjack. ``Take your axe and go cut it down.`` The skinny man headed for the tree, and in five minutes he was back knocking on the lumberjack`s door.
``I cut the tree down,`` said the man. The lumberjack couldn`t believe his eyes and said, ``Where did you get the skill to chop down trees like that?`` ``In the Sahara Forest,`` replied the puny man. ``You mean the Sahara Desert,`` said the lumberjack. The little man laughed and answered back...
``Oh sure, that`s what they call it now!``
+++
#156 Posted by nikki7777 on August 9, 2004 6:12:18 am
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#155 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 9, 2004 5:38:35 am
kkkandk (if this is barachota) -- post #139 -- my friend , trust me, interacting with the paki bashers is an utter waste of time -- i think you will better off trying to grow a forest in the sahara -- would have liked to help you out but i seriously have neither the time nor the inclination
#154 Posted by harish_hyd on August 8, 2004 10:38:21 pm
#139 by kkkandk
[For example you have 9 times as much excrement in India - that is because of your diet of dosas, idli, and daal as opposed to meat.]
Even if we assume that 1% of Pakistan`s population is vegetarian, does it mean 99% of Pakistanis do not excrete at all?
[For example you have 9 times as much excrement in India - that is because of your diet of dosas, idli, and daal as opposed to meat.]
Even if we assume that 1% of Pakistan`s population is vegetarian, does it mean 99% of Pakistanis do not excrete at all?
#153 Posted by tahmed32 on August 8, 2004 8:36:59 pm
wajahat #142 Good to hear from you. I agree with you that it is a waste of time to engage in ``discussions`` with most of the Indians on chowk (and this is not counting those driven completely mad in their hatred for Pakistan like Jay Thakeray).
barachota/kkandk: Thanks for your post. Whats the deal with the multiple nicks, btw?
barachota/kkandk: Thanks for your post. Whats the deal with the multiple nicks, btw?
#152 Posted by tahmed32 on August 8, 2004 8:36:59 pm
wajahat #142 Good to hear from you. I agree with you that it is a waste of time to engage in ``discussions`` with most of the Indians on chowk (and this is not counting those driven completely mad in their hatred for Pakistan like Jay Thakeray).
barachota/kkandk: Thanks for your post. Whats the deal with the multiple nicks, btw?
barachota/kkandk: Thanks for your post. Whats the deal with the multiple nicks, btw?
#151 Posted by kkkandk on August 8, 2004 3:14:05 pm
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#150 Posted by rajsinghi1 on August 8, 2004 12:44:20 pm
A Sugesstion/Request to the Management...
If possible, could they please do something about the time gap between someone posting a post and a post appearing on the board. At times, it can take few hours for a post to appear. This so long time-gap can be discouraging, irritating and annoying too.
Like I said, if possible, please try to do something to reduce the time difference between the post being posted and appearing on the board.
Thanks
If possible, could they please do something about the time gap between someone posting a post and a post appearing on the board. At times, it can take few hours for a post to appear. This so long time-gap can be discouraging, irritating and annoying too.
Like I said, if possible, please try to do something to reduce the time difference between the post being posted and appearing on the board.
Thanks
#149 Posted by rajsinghi1 on August 8, 2004 12:08:20 pm
Mumbaichick
Post #145
Quote:
Pakistan has great potential if only it disavows extremism, militancy,
First, what great potential are you referring to, in the above? What is the basis of arriving at a conclusion as above?
Second, would like to remind that Pakistan`s foundations have been laid on extremism and militancy only. What has changed since its creation which makes one to feel that Pakistan (referring mainly to the establishment) can shed extremism, militancy?
Third, if Paksitan was to shed these, valid question that get risen is (on both sides of the border and otherwise too), where is or was the need for partition (this is not to be miscontrued as wanting or desiring re merger)? Or rather, how can one reconcile to the partition given that Pakistan still has not really been able to find its own identity till now, other than no India or anti India? Is it possible that for Pakistan to survive as a country she has to carry on with extremism and militancy?
Post #145
Quote:
Pakistan has great potential if only it disavows extremism, militancy,
First, what great potential are you referring to, in the above? What is the basis of arriving at a conclusion as above?
Second, would like to remind that Pakistan`s foundations have been laid on extremism and militancy only. What has changed since its creation which makes one to feel that Pakistan (referring mainly to the establishment) can shed extremism, militancy?
Third, if Paksitan was to shed these, valid question that get risen is (on both sides of the border and otherwise too), where is or was the need for partition (this is not to be miscontrued as wanting or desiring re merger)? Or rather, how can one reconcile to the partition given that Pakistan still has not really been able to find its own identity till now, other than no India or anti India? Is it possible that for Pakistan to survive as a country she has to carry on with extremism and militancy?
#148 Posted by canadadryer on August 8, 2004 11:35:01 am
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#147 Posted by nikki7777 on August 8, 2004 11:11:28 am
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#146 Posted by arjun_m on August 8, 2004 9:28:11 am
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#145 Posted by mumbaichick on August 8, 2004 7:51:37 am
kkk and wajahat,
The issue is quite simple. Stop the terrorism, concentrate on your people`s well-being, let the Kashmiris participate in India`s democracy, and everybody will be happy. Pakistan has great potential if only it disavows extremism, militancy, and taking Kashmir by force. India can afford to make progress AND bleed Pakistan dry by ``competition`` in defense.
The issue is quite simple. Stop the terrorism, concentrate on your people`s well-being, let the Kashmiris participate in India`s democracy, and everybody will be happy. Pakistan has great potential if only it disavows extremism, militancy, and taking Kashmir by force. India can afford to make progress AND bleed Pakistan dry by ``competition`` in defense.
#144 Posted by kkkandk on August 7, 2004 11:20:00 pm
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#143 Posted by kkkandk on August 7, 2004 9:39:26 pm
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#142 Posted by jang on August 7, 2004 5:28:38 pm
#139 by kkkandk
``I cannot remain silent.``
are u part rajput and part turki?
``I cannot remain silent.``
are u part rajput and part turki?
#141 Posted by gujju1 on August 7, 2004 5:28:38 pm
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#140 Posted by wajahat on August 7, 2004 5:28:38 pm
KKKandK
Well said dude.
Tahmed, I admire you at your tribulations to keep coming back to the venomous retortations of our Indian Freinds, who will hate pakistan, no matter what. Needless to say most of them are a waste of time.
Rgds
Well said dude.
Tahmed, I admire you at your tribulations to keep coming back to the venomous retortations of our Indian Freinds, who will hate pakistan, no matter what. Needless to say most of them are a waste of time.
Rgds
#139 Posted by kkkandk on August 7, 2004 11:51:55 am
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#138 Posted by dost_mittar on August 7, 2004 2:57:08 am
nikki7777:
``#132.....kauarasch.....did ye cast a spell over them india today boys when they a-surveying in yonder punjab???....``
...blame it on that vile punjabi khatri aroon puri, the publisher of India Today:-).
``#132.....kauarasch.....did ye cast a spell over them india today boys when they a-surveying in yonder punjab???....``
...blame it on that vile punjabi khatri aroon puri, the publisher of India Today:-).
#137 Posted by ankit on August 6, 2004 2:40:52 pm
See.. how India is demaing poor Pakis!
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0806/dailyUpdate.html?s=ent2
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0806/dailyUpdate.html?s=ent2
#136 Posted by nikki7777 on August 6, 2004 1:41:22 pm
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#135 Posted by mohar11 on August 6, 2004 1:41:22 pm
#132 by tahmed32
//... As long as you make this distinction between the people of pakistan and this ... military interference ..//
Yes, I try to make a clear distinction, wherever possible, between the people and the establishment. Of course - sometimes things do overlap.
+++
//...You need also to recognize that there is much more to the ``Pakistani establishment`` than the military and the ISI. ...//
Well - I am not sure about that. When I say ``establishment``, I mean the entities that wield real power in pakistan - which is pretty much military and ISI. Other non-military entities such as civil society, press, grass-root democracy etc. assert very minimal influence on larger scheme of things in pakistan ..... and hence are excluded.
//... As long as you make this distinction between the people of pakistan and this ... military interference ..//
Yes, I try to make a clear distinction, wherever possible, between the people and the establishment. Of course - sometimes things do overlap.
+++
//...You need also to recognize that there is much more to the ``Pakistani establishment`` than the military and the ISI. ...//
Well - I am not sure about that. When I say ``establishment``, I mean the entities that wield real power in pakistan - which is pretty much military and ISI. Other non-military entities such as civil society, press, grass-root democracy etc. assert very minimal influence on larger scheme of things in pakistan ..... and hence are excluded.
#134 Posted by gujju1 on August 6, 2004 1:14:09 pm
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#133 Posted by jang on August 6, 2004 1:14:09 pm
http://www.theconnection.org/shows/2004/08/20040806_a_main.asp
``Since the war on terror began, Pakistan has been one of the United States` most controversial allies. Reports of Taliban camps operating in Pakistan conflict with others about the arrest of Al Qaeda operatives in the country.
It`s a tricky spot for President Musharraf, accused of not doing enough for Washington, and working too closely with it to produce ``high value targets`` in time for the November elections.
Just about the only thing that`s agreed is that Pakistan is a paradox -- both a critical American ally and the focus of so much criticism.``
cant pass a day without pakistan being in focus. its good for everyone in the long run.
overall, the climate of post 9/11 has been very -ve for pakistanis in the west, who have been trying to earn a honest living. most green passport holder students have an extreme tough time getting employed. and this is not due to american govt policy, but just overall public`s nervousness.
i remember distinctly one case of a bearded gentelman who was ex-founder of AST (Safi Qureshy?) computers who formed a start-up with many PhD engineers in Lahore (?) in voice-over IP area. after 9/11, he was still doing meetings with an american flag on his lapel, but things were very tough unfortunately. actually, he was in a hot tech area, with a low expense development operation in pakistan (in competition to high-expense operations such as audiocodes of israel). it was awfully sad to see on really good hi-tech pakistani operation fold.
``Since the war on terror began, Pakistan has been one of the United States` most controversial allies. Reports of Taliban camps operating in Pakistan conflict with others about the arrest of Al Qaeda operatives in the country.
It`s a tricky spot for President Musharraf, accused of not doing enough for Washington, and working too closely with it to produce ``high value targets`` in time for the November elections.
Just about the only thing that`s agreed is that Pakistan is a paradox -- both a critical American ally and the focus of so much criticism.``
cant pass a day without pakistan being in focus. its good for everyone in the long run.
overall, the climate of post 9/11 has been very -ve for pakistanis in the west, who have been trying to earn a honest living. most green passport holder students have an extreme tough time getting employed. and this is not due to american govt policy, but just overall public`s nervousness.
i remember distinctly one case of a bearded gentelman who was ex-founder of AST (Safi Qureshy?) computers who formed a start-up with many PhD engineers in Lahore (?) in voice-over IP area. after 9/11, he was still doing meetings with an american flag on his lapel, but things were very tough unfortunately. actually, he was in a hot tech area, with a low expense development operation in pakistan (in competition to high-expense operations such as audiocodes of israel). it was awfully sad to see on really good hi-tech pakistani operation fold.
#132 Posted by tahmed32 on August 6, 2004 1:14:08 pm
Mohar: I will agree that the military has interfered unduly in Pakistan, that ISI has been conducting its own foreign policy. This indeed was a monstrous act. As long as you make this distinction between the people of pakistan and this unfortunate period of military interference over the past 40 years, I think you are on the right track.
You need also to recognize that there is much more to the ``Pakistani establishment`` than the military and the ISI. Pakistan is a pluralistic society with a well established middle class, a free press and grass roots democracy is now emerging at the district level (where the centrally appointed district commissioners used to form the core of district administration until a couple of years ago, and who are today out of power and reporting to democratically appointed politicians). Indeed, musharaff himself is responsible for thaking the bold step needed to introduce local self governments (Nawaz Sharif and BB had both tried to do this - I have seen reports from their time recommending this step - but simply lacked the political will to do so and backed down under pressure from the then powerful civil service). You now have a tensions (which is ultimately healthy) between the district vs provincial politicians with the military nowhere in sight. In addition, the private sector goes about its business pretty much the way it would do if there was no military interference in politics, and so do the NGOs (delivering health and education services).
You need also to recognize that there is much more to the ``Pakistani establishment`` than the military and the ISI. Pakistan is a pluralistic society with a well established middle class, a free press and grass roots democracy is now emerging at the district level (where the centrally appointed district commissioners used to form the core of district administration until a couple of years ago, and who are today out of power and reporting to democratically appointed politicians). Indeed, musharaff himself is responsible for thaking the bold step needed to introduce local self governments (Nawaz Sharif and BB had both tried to do this - I have seen reports from their time recommending this step - but simply lacked the political will to do so and backed down under pressure from the then powerful civil service). You now have a tensions (which is ultimately healthy) between the district vs provincial politicians with the military nowhere in sight. In addition, the private sector goes about its business pretty much the way it would do if there was no military interference in politics, and so do the NGOs (delivering health and education services).
#131 Posted by HisExcellency on August 6, 2004 10:35:00 am
The NYT proposes. The State Department disposes!
Here is what the US government really thinks about Pakistan`s role in war against terror...
No Taliban Camps in Pakistan, says US
WASHINGTON, Aug 5: The United States has rejected the possibility of the existence of Taliban training camps inside Pakistan, pointing out that Islamabad has undertaken ``extensive operations`` against terrorists ``sometimes at the loss of life``.
The strong expression of support for Pakistan followed a series of stories in the US media recently which suggested that there still were active Taliban training camps in Pakistan.
``What we`ve seen is a very strong Pakistani effort to eradicate sources of extremism in Pakistan, to eradicate any support that might be found in Pakistan for Taliban and Al Qaeda elements,`` said State Department spokesman Richard Boucher while disagreeing with the claim.
He pointed out that the stories about these training camps were based on interviews with people who were already in police custody in Pakistan, ``and I`m sure any locations that they identify, the Pakistanis would want to move against.``
This unusually strong defence for Pakistan from a key policy- making body of the US administration comes amid allegations, both by the media and opposition lawmakers, that recent arrests of Al Qaeda suspects in Pakistan were aimed at boosting President Bush`s chances for re-election.
It was in this context that recent reports in the US media claimed that while making a big show of Al Qaeda arrests, Pakistan was quietly allowing other terrorist groups to function within its borders.
But Mr Boucher rejected this claim as incorrect. ``I think it`s quite clear the Pakistani government has turned on the Taliban, has turned on Al Qaeda, has turned on any idea that (these) people might receive training or support from Pakistan.``
``Indeed, (Pakistan) has undertaken extensive operations, sometimes at the loss of life to act on those policy decisions,`` he added. By allowing people in its custody to talk to journalists, the Pakistani government had shown its desire to exposing the activities of these terrorists and also had taken steps to eradicate any possible sources of support or training inside Pakistan, he said.
The State Department spokesman also rejected the suggestion that Washington should launch a major operation to catch all terrorists hiding in Pakistan. The United States, he said, was already working closely with Pakistan to support ``the real efforts`` they`ve been making against terrorism.
``There`s no question that Pakistan has changed its policy and is determined to root out the elements of training or support or any other sort of safe haven that terrorists might be getting in Pakistan,`` he said.
``We`ve seen them taking concerted and difficult actions. We`ve seen a loss of life among Pakistani soldiers involved in this fight,`` he added. Referring to recent arrests of Al Qaeda operatives in Pakistan, Mr Boucher said: ``They`ve been able to pick up even more Al Qaeda figures. I think the kind of effort that Pakistan is making and the results of those efforts that make all of us safer are becoming more and more clear.``
The spokesman also disagreed with the chairman of the 9/11 Commission who said last week that the three most dangerous nations to watch are Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.
``We ourselves don`t put out lists of the three most dangerous nations. What we have done is to work with many, many nations to ensure that nowhere is safe for the terrorists,`` said Mr Boucher while explaining the Bush administration`s policy on this issue.
``And by working diplomatically with Pakistan, with Saudi Arabia, with Sudan, with Libya, (and) with Yemen,`` the United States has been able take away the places where terrorists could live and train.
Here is what the US government really thinks about Pakistan`s role in war against terror...
No Taliban Camps in Pakistan, says US
WASHINGTON, Aug 5: The United States has rejected the possibility of the existence of Taliban training camps inside Pakistan, pointing out that Islamabad has undertaken ``extensive operations`` against terrorists ``sometimes at the loss of life``.
The strong expression of support for Pakistan followed a series of stories in the US media recently which suggested that there still were active Taliban training camps in Pakistan.
``What we`ve seen is a very strong Pakistani effort to eradicate sources of extremism in Pakistan, to eradicate any support that might be found in Pakistan for Taliban and Al Qaeda elements,`` said State Department spokesman Richard Boucher while disagreeing with the claim.
He pointed out that the stories about these training camps were based on interviews with people who were already in police custody in Pakistan, ``and I`m sure any locations that they identify, the Pakistanis would want to move against.``
This unusually strong defence for Pakistan from a key policy- making body of the US administration comes amid allegations, both by the media and opposition lawmakers, that recent arrests of Al Qaeda suspects in Pakistan were aimed at boosting President Bush`s chances for re-election.
It was in this context that recent reports in the US media claimed that while making a big show of Al Qaeda arrests, Pakistan was quietly allowing other terrorist groups to function within its borders.
But Mr Boucher rejected this claim as incorrect. ``I think it`s quite clear the Pakistani government has turned on the Taliban, has turned on Al Qaeda, has turned on any idea that (these) people might receive training or support from Pakistan.``
``Indeed, (Pakistan) has undertaken extensive operations, sometimes at the loss of life to act on those policy decisions,`` he added. By allowing people in its custody to talk to journalists, the Pakistani government had shown its desire to exposing the activities of these terrorists and also had taken steps to eradicate any possible sources of support or training inside Pakistan, he said.
The State Department spokesman also rejected the suggestion that Washington should launch a major operation to catch all terrorists hiding in Pakistan. The United States, he said, was already working closely with Pakistan to support ``the real efforts`` they`ve been making against terrorism.
``There`s no question that Pakistan has changed its policy and is determined to root out the elements of training or support or any other sort of safe haven that terrorists might be getting in Pakistan,`` he said.
``We`ve seen them taking concerted and difficult actions. We`ve seen a loss of life among Pakistani soldiers involved in this fight,`` he added. Referring to recent arrests of Al Qaeda operatives in Pakistan, Mr Boucher said: ``They`ve been able to pick up even more Al Qaeda figures. I think the kind of effort that Pakistan is making and the results of those efforts that make all of us safer are becoming more and more clear.``
The spokesman also disagreed with the chairman of the 9/11 Commission who said last week that the three most dangerous nations to watch are Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.
``We ourselves don`t put out lists of the three most dangerous nations. What we have done is to work with many, many nations to ensure that nowhere is safe for the terrorists,`` said Mr Boucher while explaining the Bush administration`s policy on this issue.
``And by working diplomatically with Pakistan, with Saudi Arabia, with Sudan, with Libya, (and) with Yemen,`` the United States has been able take away the places where terrorists could live and train.
#130 Posted by kaurasach on August 6, 2004 10:35:00 am
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#129 Posted by kaurasach on August 6, 2004 10:35:00 am
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#128 Posted by mohar11 on August 6, 2004 7:16:47 am
tahmed
123/ballukhan is right. You shouldn`t be throwing such a un-baked theory into the mix. It helps nothing. That`s an insult to people who made a different choice - those who chose to be united rather divided - those who chose to live together rather be separated.
Those who chose to live together also accept your choice of separation. The separation, in hindsight , proved to be good for everybody.
123/ballukhan is right. You shouldn`t be throwing such a un-baked theory into the mix. It helps nothing. That`s an insult to people who made a different choice - those who chose to be united rather divided - those who chose to live together rather be separated.
Those who chose to live together also accept your choice of separation. The separation, in hindsight , proved to be good for everybody.
#127 Posted by tahmed32 on August 6, 2004 6:18:54 am
veeresh #119 I dont think you are quite right in characterizing Pakistanis as buying into the ``manufactured consent`` of the sirkar vs a freethinking Indian people. As evidence:
1. observe chowk: Pakistanis tend to hold opinions in all bands of the spectrum (from hamidm to urstruly).
2. your own observations of the lahore cricket match in an earlier article: cricket players (both countries) were cheered by the crowd. politicians were not (and in fact booed, as i recollect reading in your article).
3. take the views of a neutral observer (I heard this from the american station chief in south asia of a major US newspaper who related this in a pakistani community meeting when she was back here in the US about an year ago): this is what she said: Pakistan has to be among the most interesting countries in the world (she said) given the independent mindset of the individual pakistani and the consequent broad range of views.
The defense rests. ;-)
1. observe chowk: Pakistanis tend to hold opinions in all bands of the spectrum (from hamidm to urstruly).
2. your own observations of the lahore cricket match in an earlier article: cricket players (both countries) were cheered by the crowd. politicians were not (and in fact booed, as i recollect reading in your article).
3. take the views of a neutral observer (I heard this from the american station chief in south asia of a major US newspaper who related this in a pakistani community meeting when she was back here in the US about an year ago): this is what she said: Pakistan has to be among the most interesting countries in the world (she said) given the independent mindset of the individual pakistani and the consequent broad range of views.
The defense rests. ;-)
#126 Posted by tahmed32 on August 6, 2004 6:18:53 am
harish #121 As I said in #120 on this issue, ``Certainly the world is concerned about the security issues in Pakistan (and correctly so). But that does not translate into the hatred for Pakistan that Indians have. Indian hatred for Pakistan is rooted in something different I think``.
As for India`s image as an emerging economic power - that is certainly true. However, an image is a very shaky thing and multifaceted thing - and it is just as true that India has the image as a vast poverty stricken nation (as an american woman joked ``visiting India is not an adventure, its a job``). More important than image are the fundamentals of any country - there I will say that over a 2-3 decade time frame, there is no question that Pakistan will keep pace with, if not outstrip, other parts of south asia in terms of political and economic progress. In any case, this is a field in which there are no losers, only winners. If India does well, Pakistan is bound to benefit anyway. If India does poorly, that will be bad for Pakistan too. So, I look forward to the day that India actually becomes what so many Indians on chowk like to say it already is.
As for India`s image as an emerging economic power - that is certainly true. However, an image is a very shaky thing and multifaceted thing - and it is just as true that India has the image as a vast poverty stricken nation (as an american woman joked ``visiting India is not an adventure, its a job``). More important than image are the fundamentals of any country - there I will say that over a 2-3 decade time frame, there is no question that Pakistan will keep pace with, if not outstrip, other parts of south asia in terms of political and economic progress. In any case, this is a field in which there are no losers, only winners. If India does well, Pakistan is bound to benefit anyway. If India does poorly, that will be bad for Pakistan too. So, I look forward to the day that India actually becomes what so many Indians on chowk like to say it already is.
#125 Posted by arjun_m on August 6, 2004 6:18:53 am
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#124 Posted by arjun_m on