Twilight of a Passionate Love Affair
Umair Raja August 9, 2004
#124 Posted by sigalph235 on August 26, 2004 9:35:24 pm
echoboom baaz nahin ayega...article Canada or Amreeka ke identity ka comparison pe hai or hazrat phir say shuru ho gaye `Pakistan ka matlab kya`.
It never ceases to amaze me that people who have never had first hand knowledge of the Quaid-e-Azam and his lieutenants are so quick to portray him as some kind of a khalifa who created a khilafat. Jinnah was English trained, drank the good stuff freely, dressed in Saville Row suits, and probably wouldn`t let a nutcase maulana within his exquisitely appointed Malabar Hills bungalow. Poor guy died too soon or else the cancerous remnants of the Maudoodi-Mashriqi clan would have been, shall we say, `addressed` instead of being `blessed` by the thugs who followed in uniform.
My civil libertarian heart is tickled pink as I hear that in Uzbekistan apparently there is a new law that anyone with the following characteristics can be hauled in for questioning immediately:
1. Beard longer than _ inches
2. Excessive visitation of `un-supervised` mosques
3. Propagating religion in public
Wah bhai wah!
It never ceases to amaze me that people who have never had first hand knowledge of the Quaid-e-Azam and his lieutenants are so quick to portray him as some kind of a khalifa who created a khilafat. Jinnah was English trained, drank the good stuff freely, dressed in Saville Row suits, and probably wouldn`t let a nutcase maulana within his exquisitely appointed Malabar Hills bungalow. Poor guy died too soon or else the cancerous remnants of the Maudoodi-Mashriqi clan would have been, shall we say, `addressed` instead of being `blessed` by the thugs who followed in uniform.
My civil libertarian heart is tickled pink as I hear that in Uzbekistan apparently there is a new law that anyone with the following characteristics can be hauled in for questioning immediately:
1. Beard longer than _ inches
2. Excessive visitation of `un-supervised` mosques
3. Propagating religion in public
Wah bhai wah!
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#123 Posted by fuzair on August 23, 2004 6:24:13 am
Re: #120 Dost Mittar,
I second what he says. Muslims in East Punjab were not given a choice (except those in Maler Kotla, I think) about whether or not they could stay. They were forced to migrate west. My Dada and and his family were going to stay put and keep their land but he was warned by a Sikh friend that his family and lands had been ``targetted`` and that he should get out as soon as possible. Similaryly, Sikhs and Hindus in West Punjab were given the same ``choice:`` stay and die, or go east. What a surprise, almost all went East and passed the refugees coming West.
What a glorious beginning that was.
There is no doubt that there were Sikh (and a few, very few apparently) death squads (jathas) roaming East Punjab killing Muslims at will, the same way that there were Muslim death squads (many of them Muslim League Guardsmen) roaming West Punjab and ethnically cleansing it.
Mr. Jinnah was as shocked and disgusted by this as was Mr. Nehru but neither had the troops to shoot their own followers, if they had been so inclined. Mountbatten was in real charge of this disaster.
I second what he says. Muslims in East Punjab were not given a choice (except those in Maler Kotla, I think) about whether or not they could stay. They were forced to migrate west. My Dada and and his family were going to stay put and keep their land but he was warned by a Sikh friend that his family and lands had been ``targetted`` and that he should get out as soon as possible. Similaryly, Sikhs and Hindus in West Punjab were given the same ``choice:`` stay and die, or go east. What a surprise, almost all went East and passed the refugees coming West.
What a glorious beginning that was.
There is no doubt that there were Sikh (and a few, very few apparently) death squads (jathas) roaming East Punjab killing Muslims at will, the same way that there were Muslim death squads (many of them Muslim League Guardsmen) roaming West Punjab and ethnically cleansing it.
Mr. Jinnah was as shocked and disgusted by this as was Mr. Nehru but neither had the troops to shoot their own followers, if they had been so inclined. Mountbatten was in real charge of this disaster.
#121 Posted by MantoLives on August 18, 2004 1:47:56 pm
Dost Mittar..
The yahoo address is better :
yasser_hamdani1@yahoo.com
The yahoo address is better :
yasser_hamdani1@yahoo.com
#120 Posted by dost_mittar on August 18, 2004 12:14:12 pm
echoboom#118
My family did not ``migrate`` to India, nor did other hindu-sikhs or their muslim cousins on the other side of the Wagah border who were given little choice but to leave their homes and hearths. The only ones who migrated were those belonging to the urdu-speaking salariat who saw both ``lazzat`` and ``swaab`` in moving to the new land of opportunity.
Yes, some local muslim league leaders did say that hindus and sikhs (not all non-muslims, christians and even hindu choorha-bhangis were spared) will have to go to India. But this is not the same as the offcial policy of ML or statements by Jinnah. So, can we have some real reference please?
Yasser:
Is your inbox working? I would like to send some pictures to you.
My family did not ``migrate`` to India, nor did other hindu-sikhs or their muslim cousins on the other side of the Wagah border who were given little choice but to leave their homes and hearths. The only ones who migrated were those belonging to the urdu-speaking salariat who saw both ``lazzat`` and ``swaab`` in moving to the new land of opportunity.
Yes, some local muslim league leaders did say that hindus and sikhs (not all non-muslims, christians and even hindu choorha-bhangis were spared) will have to go to India. But this is not the same as the offcial policy of ML or statements by Jinnah. So, can we have some real reference please?
Yasser:
Is your inbox working? I would like to send some pictures to you.
#119 Posted by PM on August 18, 2004 11:02:48 am
Islamic Shislamic... Jinnah Shinnah! Golee maar saare bateiN!
The proof is in the pudding.
Now, those nominal Pakistani going hoarse on selling Quaid as the praxis of Iqbal (more correctly, early Iqbal) AND acking it up with location of their backsides in Pakistan, please raise your hands.
ya tO khuda ka koaf karo, aur sharam bhee.
Thanks.
A true Pakistani. (eating his Paki pudding an` all!)
The proof is in the pudding.
Now, those nominal Pakistani going hoarse on selling Quaid as the praxis of Iqbal (more correctly, early Iqbal) AND acking it up with location of their backsides in Pakistan, please raise your hands.
ya tO khuda ka koaf karo, aur sharam bhee.
Thanks.
A true Pakistani. (eating his Paki pudding an` all!)
#118 Posted by echoboom on August 18, 2004 7:34:05 am
dost-mittar:115
Could you please give any references to back this statement?
Yeh, look in the mirror.
You are a living testimony, a reference.
Why else were instructions given to the population to exercise one-time ``opt`` for India & Pakistan.
OK maybe it was your father , alongwith Gujral, Advani etc [& millions of others], who really, truly, honestly, in their heart-of-hearts did not take Mr. Jinnahs or Nehrus or Gandhis assurances at face value. Their minds, hearts, and limbs were at war. Their feet won. Very practical, very astute, very smart indeed--even in hindsight, isn`t it?
Similar message was given by ``deeds`` & not by what was ``in the hearts`` by the muslim population in India. Their feet won too.
Of course, some were too imprisoned by their roots to landlordism that they exhibited a lot of ``expediency`` & ``pragmatism`` [the nizam e.g] vs J.C.Annand stayed back in Pakistan by imprisoned his root-chains
Pakistan`s & India`s curse is us, you & I, Dost-mittar. We the paper-pushers, jobbers, beancounters otherwise known as ``paRRhaa-Likhaas`` ``educated`` class. For your information we need LESS of such education in our countries.
We have been thoroughly educated and untill and unless one truly understands what evil and curse this ``getting-educated`` is one can never learn and understand anything.
De-Educate! De-educate!
Could you please give any references to back this statement?
Yeh, look in the mirror.
You are a living testimony, a reference.
Why else were instructions given to the population to exercise one-time ``opt`` for India & Pakistan.
OK maybe it was your father , alongwith Gujral, Advani etc [& millions of others], who really, truly, honestly, in their heart-of-hearts did not take Mr. Jinnahs or Nehrus or Gandhis assurances at face value. Their minds, hearts, and limbs were at war. Their feet won. Very practical, very astute, very smart indeed--even in hindsight, isn`t it?
Similar message was given by ``deeds`` & not by what was ``in the hearts`` by the muslim population in India. Their feet won too.
Of course, some were too imprisoned by their roots to landlordism that they exhibited a lot of ``expediency`` & ``pragmatism`` [the nizam e.g] vs J.C.Annand stayed back in Pakistan by imprisoned his root-chains
Pakistan`s & India`s curse is us, you & I, Dost-mittar. We the paper-pushers, jobbers, beancounters otherwise known as ``paRRhaa-Likhaas`` ``educated`` class. For your information we need LESS of such education in our countries.
We have been thoroughly educated and untill and unless one truly understands what evil and curse this ``getting-educated`` is one can never learn and understand anything.
De-Educate! De-educate!
#117 Posted by MantoLives on August 18, 2004 7:22:15 am
echoboom aka Farangi...
Again more cutting and pasting from websites of your choice... and once again no real hard evidence...
I just ask you one thing ... and as with your other avtars.... if indeed what you were saying was true... and Jinnah was this caricature that you want to make it out to be ... why in the name of God and the Prophet did you fellas call him Kafir-e-Azam in his lifetime?
And
Why did you hero Maudoodi even 7 years after the partition tell Justice Kiyani that Pakistan as envisaged by Jinnah was kufr.
And
Why did Mufti Mahmood at the fall of Dacca say `` thank god we were not involved in the sin of making Pakistan ?``
Your posts are evasive and wrong... you are without any honesty or integrity... which are the real values of Islam... it must be remembered that Muslim League annually celebrated Kemal Day in the 1940s ... to them Kemal Ataturk was the ideal Muslim Leader and Turkey the ideal Islamic country.
#116 Posted by MantoLives on August 18, 2004 7:22:15 am
Dost Mittar...
Echoboom is a pathological liar... who as usual has taken to cut and paste from any and all sites which conform to his views... He will never give references or contexts... he can`t because he knows, that he is arguing something that is completely and totally false. In this particular case... he is probably using a right wing BJP oriented Indian website to prove his point...
These are the kind of people who are involved in writing textbooks in Pakistan... lies lies and more lies...
BTW League leaders made no such statements... it is the imagination of the writer who penned this inaccurate column... I wonder how long it took Echoboom to dig this one post out.
-YLH
#115 Posted by dost_mittar on August 18, 2004 6:27:08 am
echoboom:
``The League leaders had made repeated declarations that the exchange of populations was an integral part of Partition; that all Muslims should immigrate to Pakistan while all non-Muslims should come across to Hindustan.``
Could you please give any references to back this statement?
``In the context of these events, it was appropriate that there was no mention of the word ``secular`` in the Indian Constitution, which was ratified in 1950. The word was smuggled into the great document during the Emergency, 1976, when most of the opposition MPs were in jail.``
Yes, it was introduced as a preamble in 1976 (in my opinion making a mockery of the constitution as preambles are general statements which should not be amended - how can you mandate a country to be ``socialist`` in a preamble?). However, the concept of secularism was firmly embedded in the consciousness of the Indian elite, this is why there has never been any talk against it, even after several changes of govts. of various hues.
``The League leaders had made repeated declarations that the exchange of populations was an integral part of Partition; that all Muslims should immigrate to Pakistan while all non-Muslims should come across to Hindustan.``
Could you please give any references to back this statement?
``In the context of these events, it was appropriate that there was no mention of the word ``secular`` in the Indian Constitution, which was ratified in 1950. The word was smuggled into the great document during the Emergency, 1976, when most of the opposition MPs were in jail.``
Yes, it was introduced as a preamble in 1976 (in my opinion making a mockery of the constitution as preambles are general statements which should not be amended - how can you mandate a country to be ``socialist`` in a preamble?). However, the concept of secularism was firmly embedded in the consciousness of the Indian elite, this is why there has never been any talk against it, even after several changes of govts. of various hues.
#114 Posted by echoboom on August 18, 2004 5:26:05 am
The Muslim League and the community it represented, was forthright about its non-secular credentials ever since it was founded in 1906. One of its essential rules was that only a Muslim could become a member of the party. The League`s demand for separate electorates was conceded by the Lucknow Pact which was signed between the Congress and the Muslim League. While writing in his journal Al Hilal during 1913, Maulana Abul Kalam Azad had said that no Muslim need join any political party. Islam itself is a party whose name is Hizbullah. The Imam and the Sultan are rolled into one and this integrated concept was personified by the Caliph or the representative of the Holy Prophet. But for the Congress party to concede separate electorates for the two communities was to bury its secular credentials.
Whatever hope might have been left in the practice of secularism, in India, was finally dashed when the Congress conceded the League`s demand for Partition. Pakistan for Muslims and Hindustan for the rest was the understanding of the League led by Qaid-e-Azam Jinnah. The League leaders had made repeated declarations that the exchange of populations was an integral part of Partition; that all Muslims should immigrate to Pakistan while all non-Muslims should come across to Hindustan. In the context of these events, it was appropriate that there was no mention of the word ``secular`` in the Indian Constitution, which was ratified in 1950. The word was smuggled into the great document during the Emergency, 1976, when most of the opposition MPs were in jail.
Whatever hope might have been left in the practice of secularism, in India, was finally dashed when the Congress conceded the League`s demand for Partition. Pakistan for Muslims and Hindustan for the rest was the understanding of the League led by Qaid-e-Azam Jinnah. The League leaders had made repeated declarations that the exchange of populations was an integral part of Partition; that all Muslims should immigrate to Pakistan while all non-Muslims should come across to Hindustan. In the context of these events, it was appropriate that there was no mention of the word ``secular`` in the Indian Constitution, which was ratified in 1950. The word was smuggled into the great document during the Emergency, 1976, when most of the opposition MPs were in jail.
#113 Posted by MantoLives on August 17, 2004 11:31:40 pm
bongdongs,
Yes... the point is that a proud Pakistani like Fazal Mahmood, while toasting Champagne and explaining what Pakistan means, to Lord Hastings of the house of Lords, or while telling Dennis Compton in a Pub about how Pakistan is going to beat England in the next test match, could not have imagined that people like Echoboom, the kind that had called Pakistan Kafiristan and Jinnah Kafiriazam, would have an alternative view of Pakistan and Pakistanihood ... he is lived long enough mashallah to know otherwise.
In the 1930s when Rahmat Ali invited Jinnah and other famous Indian leaders to Cambridge for a party where he put forth his idea, he, a man of more Islamic mindset than Jinnah, served Chablis with dinner... I read this in many places... and I didn`t get it... what was Chablis... and why is it so significant...
Poor me ... I found out when I was invited by my Muslim brothers of Turkish Students Association at Rutgers, in the spirit of Islamic solidarity, to an event. Chablis was flowing freely.
Sincerely
YLH
#112 Posted by MantoLives on August 17, 2004 9:32:49 pm
Echoboom....
The way you try to latch on to little things... taken from obscure sites... usually interpretations by people... shows that you really have no argument.
All I am asking is that if Jinnah was indeed this caricature you shamelessly try and promote.... then why in his life time... your heroes the Mullahs condemned him as a Kafir for his western life style? Just answer this simple question...
The Maudoodis, Mashriqis, and others like you hated Jinnah and Mashriqi plotted several attacks on him... No amount of distortion will change reality...
I am just shocked at how far you are ready to go to twist the truth... I will ask this as I ask the rest of your Mullah Brethren... have they stopped teaching the essence of Islam ... Haq or truth at your Madrassahs?
-YLH
#111 Posted by Raw_Dust on August 17, 2004 7:45:56 pm
Re: Stuka 97
You are assuming things about me (and i dont know why) that are not true. Besides i do not agree with your assertion of dividing discourse along the lines of nationalities.
cheers
You are assuming things about me (and i dont know why) that are not true. Besides i do not agree with your assertion of dividing discourse along the lines of nationalities.
cheers
#110 Posted by echoboom on August 17, 2004 7:45:55 pm
Iqbal, the thought. Jinnah, the Act.
In a letter to Jinnah on June 21, 1937 Iqbal stated unequivocally: ``a separate federation of Muslim provinces…. is the only course by which we can secure a peaceful India and save Muslims from the domination of non-Muslims`` (Studies in Oriental Culture – Edited by Hafeez Malk, Columbia University, 1971, Page XI).
During I936-37 Iqbal wrote ``eight letters to Jinnah emphasising the partition of India into two states`` (The Oxford Encyclopaedia of the Modern Islamic World, 1995, Vol. 2, page 224) and convinced him that united Hindu-Muslim nation was not a reality. In one of his letters he strongly opposed atheist socialism of Nehru. When Jinnah failed to bargain for AIML as exclusive representative body of Muslims against Congress insistence on secularism, he adopted the separatist politics of Iqbal.
Iqbal, the thougt. Jinnah, the act
In a letter to Jinnah on June 21, 1937 Iqbal stated unequivocally: ``a separate federation of Muslim provinces…. is the only course by which we can secure a peaceful India and save Muslims from the domination of non-Muslims`` (Studies in Oriental Culture – Edited by Hafeez Malk, Columbia University, 1971, Page XI).
During I936-37 Iqbal wrote ``eight letters to Jinnah emphasising the partition of India into two states`` (The Oxford Encyclopaedia of the Modern Islamic World, 1995, Vol. 2, page 224) and convinced him that united Hindu-Muslim nation was not a reality. In one of his letters he strongly opposed atheist socialism of Nehru. When Jinnah failed to bargain for AIML as exclusive representative body of Muslims against Congress insistence on secularism, he adopted the separatist politics of Iqbal.
Iqbal, the thougt. Jinnah, the act
#109 Posted by bongdongs on August 17, 2004 2:25:58 pm
#108
The Fazal Mahmood story reminds me of an excellent article on cricinfo:
http://ind.cricinfo.com/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/CRICKET_NEWS/2004/MAR/108642_WAC_27MAR2004.html
`` Amarnath sent him a telegram asking him to join the Indian team for Australia, but he declined. When the chief minister of West Punjab followed up, at the request of his Indian counterpart, Mahmood replied: ``Barrey bhai, do you want me to bring laurels for India?````
Also from:
http://uk.cricinfo.com/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/CRICKET_NEWS/2001/MAR/079352_PAK_06MAR2001.html
``So good was Fazal that he had already been selected for India for the 1947-48 tour of Australia but he rejected the offer, opting for Pakistan.``
The Fazal Mahmood story reminds me of an excellent article on cricinfo:
http://ind.cricinfo.com/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/CRICKET_NEWS/2004/MAR/108642_WAC_27MAR2004.html
`` Amarnath sent him a telegram asking him to join the Indian team for Australia, but he declined. When the chief minister of West Punjab followed up, at the request of his Indian counterpart, Mahmood replied: ``Barrey bhai, do you want me to bring laurels for India?````
Also from:
http://uk.cricinfo.com/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/CRICKET_NEWS/2001/MAR/079352_PAK_06MAR2001.html
``So good was Fazal that he had already been selected for India for the 1947-48 tour of Australia but he rejected the offer, opting for Pakistan.``
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