Twilight of a Passionate Love Affair

echoboom baaz nahin ayega...article Canada or Amreeka ke identity ka comparison pe hai or hazrat phir say shuru ho gaye `Pakistan ka matlab kya`.

It never ceases to amaze me that people who have never had first hand knowledge of the Quaid-e-Azam and his lieutenants are so quick to portray him as some kind of a khalifa who created a khilafat. Jinnah was English trained, drank the good stuff freely, dressed in Saville Row suits, and probably wouldn`t let a nutcase maulana within his exquisitely appointed Malabar Hills bungalow. Poor guy died too soon or else the cancerous remnants of the Maudoodi-Mashriqi clan would have been, shall we say, `addressed` instead of being `blessed` by the thugs who followed in uniform.

My civil libertarian heart is tickled pink as I hear that in Uzbekistan apparently there is a new law that anyone with the following characteristics can be hauled in for questioning immediately:

1. Beard longer than _ inches
2. Excessive visitation of `un-supervised` mosques
3. Propagating religion in public

Wah bhai wah!

Re: #120 Dost Mittar,

I second what he says. Muslims in East Punjab were not given a choice (except those in Maler Kotla, I think) about whether or not they could stay. They were forced to migrate west. My Dada and and his family were going to stay put and keep their land but he was warned by a Sikh friend that his family and lands had been ``targetted`` and that he should get out as soon as possible. Similaryly, Sikhs and Hindus in West Punjab were given the same ``choice:`` stay and die, or go east. What a surprise, almost all went East and passed the refugees coming West.

What a glorious beginning that was.

There is no doubt that there were Sikh (and a few, very few apparently) death squads (jathas) roaming East Punjab killing Muslims at will, the same way that there were Muslim death squads (many of them Muslim League Guardsmen) roaming West Punjab and ethnically cleansing it.

Mr. Jinnah was as shocked and disgusted by this as was Mr. Nehru but neither had the troops to shoot their own followers, if they had been so inclined. Mountbatten was in real charge of this disaster.

Dost Mittar..


The yahoo address is better :

yasser_hamdani1@yahoo.com

echoboom#118
My family did not ``migrate`` to India, nor did other hindu-sikhs or their muslim cousins on the other side of the Wagah border who were given little choice but to leave their homes and hearths. The only ones who migrated were those belonging to the urdu-speaking salariat who saw both ``lazzat`` and ``swaab`` in moving to the new land of opportunity.

Yes, some local muslim league leaders did say that hindus and sikhs (not all non-muslims, christians and even hindu choorha-bhangis were spared) will have to go to India. But this is not the same as the offcial policy of ML or statements by Jinnah. So, can we have some real reference please?

Yasser:
Is your inbox working? I would like to send some pictures to you.

Islamic Shislamic... Jinnah Shinnah! Golee maar saare bateiN!

The proof is in the pudding.

Now, those nominal Pakistani going hoarse on selling Quaid as the praxis of Iqbal (more correctly, early Iqbal) AND acking it up with location of their backsides in Pakistan, please raise your hands.

ya tO khuda ka koaf karo, aur sharam bhee.

Thanks.

A true Pakistani. (eating his Paki pudding an` all!)

dost-mittar:115
Could you please give any references to back this statement?

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Yeh, look in the mirror.
You are a living testimony, a reference.
Why else were instructions given to the population to exercise one-time ``opt`` for India & Pakistan.

OK maybe it was your father , alongwith Gujral, Advani etc [& millions of others], who really, truly, honestly, in their heart-of-hearts did not take Mr. Jinnahs or Nehrus or Gandhis assurances at face value. Their minds, hearts, and limbs were at war. Their feet won. Very practical, very astute, very smart indeed--even in hindsight, isn`t it?

Similar message was given by ``deeds`` & not by what was ``in the hearts`` by the muslim population in India. Their feet won too.

Of course, some were too imprisoned by their roots to landlordism that they exhibited a lot of ``expediency`` & ``pragmatism`` [the nizam e.g] vs J.C.Annand stayed back in Pakistan by imprisoned his root-chains

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Pakistan`s & India`s curse is us, you & I, Dost-mittar. We the paper-pushers, jobbers, beancounters otherwise known as ``paRRhaa-Likhaas`` ``educated`` class. For your information we need LESS of such education in our countries.

We have been thoroughly educated and untill and unless one truly understands what evil and curse this ``getting-educated`` is one can never learn and understand anything.

De-Educate! De-educate!

echoboom aka Farangi...

Again more cutting and pasting from websites of your choice... and once again no real hard evidence...

I just ask you one thing ... and as with your other avtars.... if indeed what you were saying was true... and Jinnah was this caricature that you want to make it out to be ... why in the name of God and the Prophet did you fellas call him Kafir-e-Azam in his lifetime?

And

Why did you hero Maudoodi even 7 years after the partition tell Justice Kiyani that Pakistan as envisaged by Jinnah was kufr.


And

Why did Mufti Mahmood at the fall of Dacca say `` thank god we were not involved in the sin of making Pakistan ?``


Your posts are evasive and wrong... you are without any honesty or integrity... which are the real values of Islam... it must be remembered that Muslim League annually celebrated Kemal Day in the 1940s ... to them Kemal Ataturk was the ideal Muslim Leader and Turkey the ideal Islamic country.

Dost Mittar...

Echoboom is a pathological liar... who as usual has taken to cut and paste from any and all sites which conform to his views... He will never give references or contexts... he can`t because he knows, that he is arguing something that is completely and totally false. In this particular case... he is probably using a right wing BJP oriented Indian website to prove his point...

These are the kind of people who are involved in writing textbooks in Pakistan... lies lies and more lies...

BTW League leaders made no such statements... it is the imagination of the writer who penned this inaccurate column... I wonder how long it took Echoboom to dig this one post out.

-YLH

echoboom:
``The League leaders had made repeated declarations that the exchange of populations was an integral part of Partition; that all Muslims should immigrate to Pakistan while all non-Muslims should come across to Hindustan.``

Could you please give any references to back this statement?

``In the context of these events, it was appropriate that there was no mention of the word ``secular`` in the Indian Constitution, which was ratified in 1950. The word was smuggled into the great document during the Emergency, 1976, when most of the opposition MPs were in jail.``

Yes, it was introduced as a preamble in 1976 (in my opinion making a mockery of the constitution as preambles are general statements which should not be amended - how can you mandate a country to be ``socialist`` in a preamble?). However, the concept of secularism was firmly embedded in the consciousness of the Indian elite, this is why there has never been any talk against it, even after several changes of govts. of various hues.

The Muslim League and the community it represented, was forthright about its non-secular credentials ever since it was founded in 1906. One of its essential rules was that only a Muslim could become a member of the party. The League`s demand for separate electorates was conceded by the Lucknow Pact which was signed between the Congress and the Muslim League. While writing in his journal Al Hilal during 1913, Maulana Abul Kalam Azad had said that no Muslim need join any political party. Islam itself is a party whose name is Hizbullah. The Imam and the Sultan are rolled into one and this integrated concept was personified by the Caliph or the representative of the Holy Prophet. But for the Congress party to concede separate electorates for the two communities was to bury its secular credentials.

Whatever hope might have been left in the practice of secularism, in India, was finally dashed when the Congress conceded the League`s demand for Partition. Pakistan for Muslims and Hindustan for the rest was the understanding of the League led by Qaid-e-Azam Jinnah. The League leaders had made repeated declarations that the exchange of populations was an integral part of Partition; that all Muslims should immigrate to Pakistan while all non-Muslims should come across to Hindustan. In the context of these events, it was appropriate that there was no mention of the word ``secular`` in the Indian Constitution, which was ratified in 1950. The word was smuggled into the great document during the Emergency, 1976, when most of the opposition MPs were in jail.

bongdongs,

Yes... the point is that a proud Pakistani like Fazal Mahmood, while toasting Champagne and explaining what Pakistan means, to Lord Hastings of the house of Lords, or while telling Dennis Compton in a Pub about how Pakistan is going to beat England in the next test match, could not have imagined that people like Echoboom, the kind that had called Pakistan Kafiristan and Jinnah Kafiriazam, would have an alternative view of Pakistan and Pakistanihood ... he is lived long enough mashallah to know otherwise.

In the 1930s when Rahmat Ali invited Jinnah and other famous Indian leaders to Cambridge for a party where he put forth his idea, he, a man of more Islamic mindset than Jinnah, served Chablis with dinner... I read this in many places... and I didn`t get it... what was Chablis... and why is it so significant...

Poor me ... I found out when I was invited by my Muslim brothers of Turkish Students Association at Rutgers, in the spirit of Islamic solidarity, to an event. Chablis was flowing freely.

Sincerely

YLH

Echoboom....

The way you try to latch on to little things... taken from obscure sites... usually interpretations by people... shows that you really have no argument.

All I am asking is that if Jinnah was indeed this caricature you shamelessly try and promote.... then why in his life time... your heroes the Mullahs condemned him as a Kafir for his western life style? Just answer this simple question...

The Maudoodis, Mashriqis, and others like you hated Jinnah and Mashriqi plotted several attacks on him... No amount of distortion will change reality...


I am just shocked at how far you are ready to go to twist the truth... I will ask this as I ask the rest of your Mullah Brethren... have they stopped teaching the essence of Islam ... Haq or truth at your Madrassahs?

-YLH

Re: Stuka 97
You are assuming things about me (and i dont know why) that are not true. Besides i do not agree with your assertion of dividing discourse along the lines of nationalities.

cheers

Iqbal, the thought. Jinnah, the Act.

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In a letter to Jinnah on June 21, 1937 Iqbal stated unequivocally: ``a separate federation of Muslim provinces…. is the only course by which we can secure a peaceful India and save Muslims from the domination of non-Muslims`` (Studies in Oriental Culture – Edited by Hafeez Malk, Columbia University, 1971, Page XI).

During I936-37 Iqbal wrote ``eight letters to Jinnah emphasising the partition of India into two states`` (The Oxford Encyclopaedia of the Modern Islamic World, 1995, Vol. 2, page 224) and convinced him that united Hindu-Muslim nation was not a reality. In one of his letters he strongly opposed atheist socialism of Nehru. When Jinnah failed to bargain for AIML as exclusive representative body of Muslims against Congress insistence on secularism, he adopted the separatist politics of Iqbal.

---

Iqbal, the thougt. Jinnah, the act

#108

The Fazal Mahmood story reminds me of an excellent article on cricinfo:

http://ind.cricinfo.com/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/CRICKET_NEWS/2004/MAR/108642_WAC_27MAR2004.html

`` Amarnath sent him a telegram asking him to join the Indian team for Australia, but he declined. When the chief minister of West Punjab followed up, at the request of his Indian counterpart, Mahmood replied: ``Barrey bhai, do you want me to bring laurels for India?````

Also from:

http://uk.cricinfo.com/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/CRICKET_NEWS/2001/MAR/079352_PAK_06MAR2001.html

``So good was Fazal that he had already been selected for India for the 1947-48 tour of Australia but he rejected the offer, opting for Pakistan.``

yaar digit...

Echoboom`s attempts are simply to make a caricature... to draw a fictitious character... and to attribute things to him, that he most certainly would have dismissed as nonsense in his life... it is an irony that the kind of people who hated him and declared him a kafir in his life time because of his western life style, are now busy trying to reinvent him as a champion of their cause.

As for Pakistan... Pakistan was made as Fazal Mahmood told Lord Hastings (descendant of the original Warren Hastings) in a dinner at House of Lords ... because, despite his brilliant talents he couldn`t have made it to the Indian cricket team... Pakistan was made so that he could prove how talented he was...

And a few days later Pakistan beat England at Oval 50 years ago in this month... thanks to Fazal Mahmood... and Lord Hastings congratulating for proving his point.

-YLH

-digit:

The subject would unravel in all directions , so let me just give benchmarks:

1)Iqbal`s tremendous influence on him eversince he was urged by Iqbal to lead the muslim nation.

2)Bahadur Yaar Jungs friendship: Jinnah was only free and at-ease in his company. Others, the western types, always got a steely official treatment.

3)The day he uttered: `` Pakistan came into existence when the first hindu in India embraced Islam``. This is powerful and potent stuff and clearly has Iqbal`s mind behind it. [Islam tiraa dais hai too Mustafavee hai] This he to tell others as well that belief is not land-bound and love-for-land to the point of worshipping it is folly. ``Hum say zamanaa khud hai, zamanay say nahee hum`` [ It is my being which makes everything around me important. Outside is nothing without me]

---

It was sheer genius to operate under a very legislative and legally enmeshed British environment [ and hence the proverbial British hypocricy & legal-lying]. Gandhi, Nehru, Jinnah, Iqbal & most others were finely-honed lawyers who made the British-baboons dance to the same tune & tricks in which they were ``taught``. Gandhi had to resort to `` a day of prayer & fasting `` instead of ``a general strike`` to acquiesce to this newly acquired westernistic ``progress``of legal-lying.

echoboom,

I don`t know about that. Jinnah was proposing some sort of nationalism, and his ideas revolved around the creation of Pakistan as a homeland for Indian Muslims. Empahsis on homeland, I suppose.

I`m unsure if even he understood exactly what idelogical flavor of state he wanted. He no doubt had ideas as to what important characteristics of the state would be, but I don`t think he had a definite ideology.

I don`t even think the post-colonial West were well aware of their own ideologies untill the start of the cold war, which polarized the world along a single ideological axis. Prior to that, the colonial powers pretty much shared the same ideology of supremacy and the precieved obligations it entailed. I could be wrong on this...

My comment wasn`t to suggest that Jinnah had insight into the emerging state of the world, and attempted to add his own Islamic ideology into the mix. That wouldn`t actually happen in the Islamic world untill the Iranian Revolution.

Basically, I think that romantic ideas (at least for their day) of equality among men would no doubt come from former colonial subjects, who liked the general structure of governance introduced by their former overlords but obviously not their racist attitudes.

Maybe I`m a bit of a spacecase, but I think the age of bickering over ideology came down with the berlin wall. Made sense during the cold war, but it`s becomming apparent that the only foces that matter now are economic ones.

_digit:

Thank you for the insight. Short and incisive.

Yes! Certainly Jinnah was/is a rare human even today. As a man of character , knowledge, and action the world has yet to see an equal. He comes closest, as they come, to Iqbal`s Shaheen.

By paying homage to such a man, I am merely trying to bask in the only pride which Pakistanis like me have managed to salvage from the scourge and plunder by the ``anti-muslims`` with muslim names.

The significance of Pakistan is still not apparent to many. Jinnah has planted an idea ( ideology) which is immune to the fickle ravages of transplanted westernism.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with a strip of earth.

Manto,

``The key phrase was `Equality of manhood`` (a word in vogue then for `humanity`) and not the equality of `muslims` ... ``

Interesting...what was the origin of the term? Couldn`t be the segregationist Americans, nor the colonial powers of Europe. :-)

In all honesty, I find Jinnah`s vision quite ahead of the curve, considering the Brithish, French, Americans, and Mr. ``Dihmmi`` Maudoodi perhaps had more or less the same perspective vis a vis minorities in the state.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Please see this link..It is interesting.

http://ghazali.net/book1/chapter_2.htm

Chapter II


Ulema and Pakistan Movement

Jamat-i-Islami reacted to the idea of Pakistan in a complex manner. It rejected both the nationalist Ulema`s concept of nationalism as well as the Muslim League`s demand for a separate homeland for the Muslims.

Here`s another quote...Now I am getting a true picture of Maudoodi. He understood the contradiction between western style nationalism and Islam which is a religion hence different from man made nationalism. Hence...

``Among Indian Muslims today we find two kinds of nationalists: the Nationalists Muslims, namely those who in spite of their being Muslims believe in Indian Nationalism and worship it; and the Muslims Nationalist: namely those who are little concerned with Islam and its principles and aims, but are concerned with the individuality and the political and economic interests of that nation which has come to exist by the name of Muslim, and they are so concerned only because of their accidence of birth in that nation. From the Islamic viewpoint both these types of nationalists were equally misled, for Islam enjoins faith in truth only; it does not permit any kind of nation-worshipping at all.``

The above paragrapgh is absolutely true. He was a smart man no doubt.

O Followers of Maudoodi:

Here`s some information about him....

Replying to certain queries by Justice Mohammed Munir, who was appointed as the single-member Commission to inquire into riots against the Quadianis in Pakistan, Maududi said:

``If a Hindu government based on Hindu law came to India and the law of Manu became the law of land as a result of which Muslims were treated (as) untouchables and were not given any share in the government - not only that, they did not even get the citizenship rights - I would have no objection`` (quoted in Z.A. Nizami,1975. p.11).


So next time any of the followers of Maudoodi talk about Gujarat, I will shove a carrot up their arse!! BWAHAHAHA!!

Romair:

``Too difficult and time-consuming to translate. You will have to learn Urdu......I thought everyone in Delhi understood Urdu or Hindi..... ``

They all went to Karachi. We understand Paindu Hindi with mix of Punjabi.

Echobboom:

I liked the song you posted. Hum Mustafavi hain!

Have you heard this other song Ya Rab, Dil e Muslim. It is pretty cool music as well.

Raw_Dust:

Arrey yaar, why are you getting so worked up over how Pakistanis want to define Pakistan. It is their business. Best for Indians to mind their own business.

Re: echoboom
``& no further playing of the flute in front of the buffaloe-bills. ``

So, people who disagree with your views are proverbial buffaloes? Bhains kay aagay been bajaana, eh? What exactly is the point of the whole charade of discussing when you are sooo filled with contempt?

Your point nevertheless about Jinnah`s State Bank speech does make
the whole issue cloudy (atleast for me).

I would take the Aug 11, 1947 speech made on the floor of the constituent assembly as a Policy statement and Jinnah`s other utterances about his Personal ideas on Islam as well-meaning rhetoric.

peace.

PM..

Good point ...

The emphasis was on an Economic system based on the concept of equality of Manhood and social justice... something along the lines of the words he used in Dacca ``Islamic Socialism``... The use of the word `Islamic` is to give sanction to a modern idea for a people who are obsessed with religion. The key phrase was `Equality of manhood`` (a word in vogue then for `humanity`) and not the equality of `muslims` ...

Besides... unlike the speech that Jinnah made extempore in the constituent assembly of Pakistan .... this speech, given when he was in the closing stages of his fight with cancer, was carefuly drafted by an official speech writer and read by Jinnah off a paper...

For Echo to continue to harp about this speech to prove his own point is shameless ... for it doesn`t at all give sanction to the ideology of Maudoodi... who till the end of his life considered Jinnah`s idea of Pakistan as simply unIslamic and `Kufr`...

-YLH

from the Quaid`s speech:
``We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice.``

Did the Quaid know something I don`t? Or is dhimmihood really compatible with the idea of equality of man in the context of a modern nation-state? Could someone actually knowledgeable in these matters please comment?

echobust:
Could you possibly be any more evasive? Or is it possible I was too subtle for you and Mawdoodi?

I mean, it`s not like anyone here is even advocating``Western economic therory and practice`` -- whatever that might be (I remember Imran Khan pointing out that Western societies were in fact more Islamic in practise than Muslim ones-- but of course, in your theoretical owrld, that couldn`t be good enough, could it?)

Of course, this is the point at which i expect you to, as usual, either (a) obfuscate further or (b) run away, tail between legs. So long!

Echo... atif2... etc...

You can twist turn and lie all you want till the 31st...

After the 31st... I will be back and I will settle all scores, past present and future...

Sincerely

YLH

The Last word.

The last speech of our beloved Quaid-e-Azam .

Excerpt from that speech:(state-bank)

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``The Western world, in spite of its advantages, of mechanization and industrial efficiency is today in a worse mess than ever before in history. The adoption of Western economic theory and practice will not help us in achieving our goal of creating a happy and contended people. We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind``.

---

No comments.
& no further playing of the flute in front of the buffaloe-bills.

Re: echoboom:
Answer post no.86 in plain english.

The extent of Islam`s ``tolerance`` towards Dhimmies is not the subject.

What Jinnah`s view for Pakistan as a modern, secular state IS being discussed and it is very clear from the following excerpt taken from his speech delivered on 11 August, 1947. Read the passage in its entirety instead of quoting second hand sources.

``You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation.

Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State. ``

S.M.Burke writes:
( as an Introduction to)
`` Jinnah Speeches``
by Salim Qureishi
oxford university press. 2000?

``Some commentators have suggested that Jinnah was too westernized to conceive Pakistan as an Islamic state. To support their argument they usually cite his speech* at the inaugural session of the Pakistani Constituent Assembly on August 11, 1947 .

``aside

---

[The infamous* `` you are free to go to your temples....`` blah blah blah. As if one ever needed permission to do that prior to the arrival of the British baboons or the bible/flag mafia-missionaries]

---

aside ends.

``However, when this is read with Jinnah`s other pronouncements it becomes quite clear that he was recommending generous treatment of non-Muslims not as a commendable secular principle but as a mandatory Islamic injunction. Only thirteen days later during the transfer of power ceremony on August 14 when Mountbatten praised the Emperor Akbar`s policy of political and religious tolerance, Jinnah pointed out: `The tolerance and goodwill that the Emperor Akbar showed to all the non-Muslims is not of recent origin. It dates back to thirteen centuries ago when our Prophet not only by words but by deedstreated the Jews and Christians after he had conquered them with the utmost tolerance and regard and respect for their faith and beliefs`.

``In his Eid Day message on November 13, 1939, he had already pointed out that `no injunction is considered by our Holy Prophet more imperative and more divinely binding than the devout but supreme realization of our duty of love and toleration towards all other human beings`.``

Yeh lahoo surkhee hai azaadi kay afsanay kee

Atif2

Thankyou for admitting you are a liar...

Now read my post again... and see that if people like you and followers Maudoodi believe in a sense of fairplay and equality, I will even be your ally.


Echoboom...

Your selective rendering will not change the facts... the fact is that Maulana Maudoodi when asked by the justice Kiyani if he agreed with Jinnah`s conception of Pakistan, replied that any such conception would be kufr. This is a well known fact. Maudoodi didn`t even consider Jinnah a Muslim... let alone agree with his conception of Pakistan... His opposition to the Pakistan Movement is well known. You are pretty much whitewashing History by lying again and again on these boards and your ilogs.

Clearly they don`t teach the real core ``HAQ`` or ``TRUTH`` which neither of you Chowk Mullahs learnt in your Madrassah... but rest assure is the core of the true Islam. When you can become truthful... and accurate... and when you can stop lying... then come and talk to me again.

PS: The Phadda that happened happened because YOU atif insulted an Old man who we all respect by calling him all sorts of things under the sun.. because you are a pathological liar, you probably don`t remember...

As for the JI thing.... escapist made that story after he got his rearside whooped and the contradictions of his arguments exposed...

Here is the link:

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003740&channel=gulberg&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=


Everyone can see that you are a pathetic liar.

Re. echoboom #79;
Nice attempt by you [and Mawdoodi] to reconcile Mawdoodi’s views with Jinnah’s pronouncements on secularism.

Alas, it is flawed.

You quote Mawdoodi: “To say, that by way of a principle the process of ‘tauhid’ (unity) is the base of freedom, equality and solidarity of the human species. Now if we see from this angle then according to Islam, the State will mean our endeavour, that these supreme and ideal principles be expressed as the space time forces,…”

Wrong. First, the process of Tawheed is based on the acceptance of a particular religious ideal; not one remotely discernible as common to all mankind—except, perhaps in the minds of some religious thinkers in their ivory-towers—far removed from the vicissitudes of practical political life.

In reality, seen from any angle, according to Islam, the State should (“will” being another matter altogether) endeavour to align law with these supreme and ideal principles as laid down in the Shariah and informed, of course by the Holy Qur’an and Sunnat.

(What space-time forces have to do with any of this I still haven’t figured, but then, Theoretical Physics never was my forte)

Now, while I may or may or not have problems with a political system based on such lofty ideals of Tawheed– whether or not that idea might inevitably lead to the creation of a superior class of folks— and putative equality and solidarity of the human species, what I do find more than a little troublesome is the attempt to marry the above position with Jinnah’s “The State has Nothing to do with Religion” (Manto will provide the exact words, but I’m sure I do not misrepresent the position here.)

Continues: … as if it is an aspiration that these principles be seen openly working in a definite human social organization. It is, therefore, in this meaning that the Islamic State is expressed as the theocracy (Hukumat-e-Ilahiya), and not in the sense that authority is conferred upon some representative (Zil) of God on earth, who under the excuse of his supposed innocence (infallibility) screens his despotic rule.`` It means that theocracy in Islam is not in the sense that there be some monopolist religious class, which alone should be the source to know the will of Allah. So this was the thinking of Allama Iqbal in the light of Islamic teachings and disposition.”

Never mind the wishful thinking that Islam (or any system that derives authority from a divinely mandated and incontrovertible source) will lead to a theocracy sans authority of a veritable monopolist “philosopher class”—human nature being what it is. What should be more than apparent is that even the best-case scenario makes for a happy system only within Islamia, or those cognizant of the supreme authority of the Quran/Shariah. (It would be interesting to know how such a system would treat Ahmedis.) It is far from clear that followers of other and no religions will not be “monopolized” by the noble Islamic theocracy, even one that somehow manages to rise above the pale of (Islamic) sectarian “favouritism”.

Unless, of course, you consider dimmhihood as the gold standard of justice in dealing with religious minorities in a modern nation state.

It would be interesting also to see how you or Mawdoodi would attempt to reconcile this problem- assuming, of course that you accept that Jinnah envisioned a modern nation-state in Pakistan, and that there (therefore) is an inherent problem in marrying it with the vision of Mawdoodi, however noble it may be.

And we’ll leave for later the discussion on why it’s silly to always compare Islam in it’s pristine, theoretical form (where, you know, there is no mullah class, no class inequality and everyone joins hands singing Kumbaya (since there are no more hungry to feed or poor to clothe) with those horrible religions of Christianity, Buddhism and Judaism, which, as we all know, must be inferior to Islam since they silly concepts like priesthood and trinities and whatnot!

Romair,
Enjoyed the read! Please keep writing!

Hum Mustafavi haiN

Recorded in 1974: Music Sohail Rana: Voice Mehdi Zaheer

story behind the event:

The Second Islamic conference was scheduled. Time was short. JamilUDDIn wrote the song and as you will notice that it is in ``rajaz`` meter. It was decided that either Umm-Kulsoom or subhaan [ the great singers from egypt] would be retained. Sohail Rana suggested that we should use our own talent. Mehdi Zaheer, of Radio pakistaN- A legend in his own lifetime both as a scholar and as an artist. His recorded songs in Arabic were already popular in the Middle East but he was himself pretty shy and evasive of publicity & commercialism.

The galloping and advancing of horses, after the introductrey [rajaz] which was a part of battle protocol and strict rule among arabs, is a masterpiece in music composition by a genius as well as singing by another genius.

Enjoy!

Pakistan ko Salgirah Mubarak ho.
PakistaaniON ko salgiraaH mubarak ho.
CHOWK ko salgirah mubarak ho.

Dear Romair (#77 by Romair on August 14, 2004 7:33am PT)

``Our children will be Canadian Muslims. Assuming we stay here, we have decided to raise them as 100% Canadians. Not Pakistani-Canadians or Canadian-Pakistanis. There identity will be Canada.``


How can you be so sure... What if they exercise their rights guaranteed by constitution of the land, and change their land or religion. What if the nation-state identity fades in their life time. I have two daughters who were born and grew up in California, believe me what you are saying is easier said than done, and quite wishful.

``So when Pakistan plays Canada in the cricket world cup, I might be cheering for Pakistan, and they will be cheering for Canada.``

This seems like a diktat from a proud father... please don`t predict the future... that ``....they will be cheering for Canada.`` The is to give good family values, education and let them feel proud of themselves and their identity. After that the only thing a father can do is become a number one fan and number cheerleader..

Good luck... in growing up the family of Canadians...

Anil

echoboom sahib - # 79 post was a very interesting read. In fact, if one is open minded, rational thinker, and is not consumed by hatred and bigotry, he/she would come to understand that although maududi was wrong in somethings (humans as we all are), he was right, and very modern in many things too. For those who call maududi a mullah, are in fact narrow minded mullahs themselves.

Thanks for sharing this post.

It should never ever be forgotten that It was Maulana Maudoodi himself who was invited by Allama Iqbal to set up a Islami-model (experimental) township. He asked him to leave Hyderabad Dakkan and move to Pathankote. This was done as planned, land acquired and instituitons established and continued till the partition upheaval.

---

[To snuff out any ambiguity here and to quelch any word-corruption so as to justify WESTERNISM--never ever utter the word `secularism` Such attention somehow lends it some credence: always but always call it WESTERNISM--an alien concept, an enemy-alien concept; like cannibalism ]

---

Q. Concerning the fact, that Iqbal and Quaid-e-Azam were against theocracy, it is said, that using all means, you intend to lead Pakistan to theocracy?

It is a fact and the same has been clearly expressed by Allama Muhammad Iqbal and Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, that Islam is not theocracy. Taking advantage of such statements (of the founders), some people try to impress that we held different opinion from them. In fact, these people forget that where Allama Iqbal discussed this subject, is the sixth speech of his ‘Khutbat’. The sense in which he expressed it in the speech is, that, ``To say, that by way of a principle the process of ‘tauhid’ (unity) is the base of freedom, equality and solidarity of the human species. Now if we see from this angle then according to Islam, the State will mean our endeavour, that these supreme and ideal principles be expressed as the space time forces, as if it is an aspiration that these principles be seen openly working in a definite human social organization. It is, therefore, in this meaning that the Islamic State is expressed as the theocracy (Hukumat-e-Ilahiya), and not in the sense that authority is conferred upon some representative (Zil) of God on earth, who under the excuse of his supposed innocence (infallibility) screens his despotic rule.`` It means that theocracy in Islam is not in the sense that there be some monopolist religious class, which alone should be the source to know the will of Allah. So this was the thinking of Allama Iqbal in the light of Islamic teachings and disposition.

Quaid-e-Azam has said, that he was against theocracy, because there was no concept of such a class in Islam that would enjoy the monopoly in religion, as it is found in Budhism, Christianity, Hinduism and Judaism. The same thing has always been said in the same tone by Sayyed Abul a’ala Mawdudi and Jama’at-e-Islami, that, ``We are against theocracy; that theocracy has no relation to Islamic system``. In this respect, Maulana Mawdudi’s view could be ascertained from his books. Now, if an educated person does not go through all this, and considers the false Western accusations and slander to be sufficient knowledge, then it is only a proof of his fooly and narrow-mindedness.

In fact Allama Iqbal, Quaid-e-Azam and Sayyed Abul A’ala Mawdudi held similar view. Those who are attempting to create conflict in them and a division at the practical level, are not showing intellectual honesty, or else, instead of looking for the facts, they are prone to secular biases. Such elements neither understand theocracy, nor they are aware of the social, economic, international and political thoughts in Islam. I understand that from this aspect, they should correct their view point at the national level, so that we are able to put to practice the message given by Allama Iqbal and for which the Quaid struggled. As far as Maulana Mawdudi is concerned, he was an exponent of this thinking at the ideological front and proclaimed it in practical life

Manto - Two things.

One, there was a huge PHADDA on chowk a few weeks ago where you posted some 20 threads using swear words for escapist and myself. That whole phadda was because you were baited into agreeing with JI solution. I don`t need to go and spend time looking for all the threads and interacts. Everyone on chowk remembers what you said.

Two, why is it that every conversation with you ends being about mullah bashing and Jinnah??? I mean this is an article about a man`s journey from America to Canada. We were all discussing that. But as soon as you jumped into the discussion, suddenly we find ourselves talking about mullahs in Pakistan and Jinnah !!!!!

Is it because a) you are morbidly possessed and obssessed by mullahs? or b) mullah bashing and jinnah are the only topics you know something about (as opposed to other interactors who talk about various topics from science, technology, culture, travelogues etc) and thats why you keep turning every discussion into that same direction???

Atif2...

Ah... yaar where does your Islam run off to ... everytime the simple requirement of truth or Haq comes up...

Since you claim that I am on the record agreeing with Jamaat-e-Islami... I challenge you to show us exactly where I agreed to JI... I said that if Jamaat-e-Islami believes in a `non-theocratic, Liberal, democratic Islamic state`... then I agree.. but clearly they don`t. As for Mullahs not being real culprits... again this is your imagination. I said that corrupt and hedonistic elite of the country is allied to the Mullahs who are the real culprits.

I still hold on to both beliefs... I still believe that if Jamaat-e-Islami is willing to work for a `non-theocratic liberal democratic Islamic state` but it has to be all of that and nothing less ... I will welcome them, and I have always believed that Pakistan`s decadent elite is too selfish ... and so they are allied with the real culprits..


Here is the thread where I supposedly have agreed with what you say I have agreed with...
now if you have even an ounce of self respect in your body... you will show us where I said what I said...

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003740&channel=gulberg&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1


But you can`t.... and that is precisely why I think you and your hypocrite buddies here are a bunch of liars...

Now go and learn the essence of Islam i.e. ``HAQ` or `TRUTH`... ah but you didn`t really learn that lesson in your Madrassah did you ... you little twit...

-YLH

vereesh #28: ``Will Romair or anyone else here please bring the shairi into English, please? Grateful indeed``

Too difficult and time-consuming to translate. You will have to learn Urdu......I thought everyone in Delhi understood Urdu or Hindi.....

satish #29: ````Mujh tak kab unki bazm me aata tha daur-e-jaam
Saqi ne kuchh mila na diya ho sharaab me``

phir dekhiye andaaz-e-gul_afshaanii-e-guftaar....
rakh de ko_ii paimaanaa-e-sahabaa mere aage

nazarhayatkhan #30: ``No matter what you say, you will always miss Margalla, dust, noise, chaos, mamoons, uncles, servants, world of your youth.....
However, your children will be proper Canadians. Actually you are sacrificing your life for your children.``

Yes, you are correct. Margalla and Pakistan is my identity. It is always good to have an identity, so that one does not remain in a state of confusion. Everyone will always view me as a Pakistani, regardless of where I go............

Our children will be Canadian Muslims. Assuming we stay here, we have decided to raise them as 100% Canadians. Not Pakistani-Canadians or Canadian-Pakistanis. There identity will be Canada. So when Pakistan plays Canada in the cricket world cup, I might be cheering for Pakistan, and they will be cheering for Canada. They definitely will have it much easier than I have had it. But, I think their vision of the world will be quite a bit more limited than mine. They will have only lived in Toronto. Not in Toronto and Mianwali and Badin.

dost-mittar #32: ``Vo aayen hamare kaneda mein khuda ki kudrat hai
Kabhi hum unko kabhi apne kaneda ko dekhate hain! ``

aap say mil kar hum kuch badal say gayee
shair parhaney lagay; gungunay lagay
pehley mash-hoor thee apni sanjeedagi
abb to jub daikheyaay, muskoranay lagay

aslam644: ``Could it be you are in love with Canada because of it’s similarities with Kashmir. Lakes, pine forests, frozen wastelands,mountains``

Actually, I have never lived in Kashmir. Used to visit it regularly. I have driven or flown through much or its (and Northern areas) beautiful parts, from Chitral to Rawalakot to Muzzafarabad. The truly beautiful part of Canada is on the West coast, along Vancouver and Victoria etc. Vancouver is simply breathtaking. It is like a postcard. As are the roads between Rawalakot and Muzzafarabad. For those who have not visited Kashmir, there are some rest houses along these roads, that are the most beautiful I have ever seen in my life. As is the view from the Simon Fraser campus and Grouse Mountain in Vancouver....

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Malik99 and Urstruly -

Allow me to chime in here. Actually the points that you two are arguing with Mantolives, he has already agreed to on previous boards

- he is on record for agreeing to setting up a system of government as advocated by Jamaat -e-Islami. It is true that when he agreed to that solution, he did not know that it was Jamaat-e-Islami solution. He later reversed his position upon finding out the JI link. But the fact that he did agree to JI`s position clearly shows that if Mantolives were to get rid of his baseless bias and hatred, he is on the platform as JI. It also shows how confused Mantolives is about his own convictions

- he is also on the record for FINALLY blurting out that mullahs are not the real culprits in Pakistan - they are merely the ``allies`` of the culprits. This is a significant change since up until now he has been harping day and night about how Mullahs have single-handedly ruined Pakistan.

Peace

Malik99...

I am very sorry to learn of your desperate condition i.e. you are a pathological liar. Sadly your continuous need to lie about me is a more serious condition. The post you are responding to isn`t even on this board... but thats alright. You can call me a hypocrite all you want... but I am afraid the only hypocrite here is you... and I think your last 10 posts are aptly indicative of it.

You are right that our struggle is not the same... I said it sarcastically but you are not very bright are you... In your world... just like Ashcroft... the best way to deal with `dissent` is to ``lock up and forget``.... ... this is your world... you are basically a Closet Bushist

My struggle is legal and democratic... as long as Mullah Fazlurrahman or you for that matter don`t do anything violent or illegal... I don`t support your detention or Fazlu`s for that matter... my attempt is not to exterminate physically the mullahs or put them in jails but rather to defeat them with force of reason... and given your desperate and lame comebacks... one can see that you have nothing to offer...

Now go back to making a fool of yourself...

-YLH

PS: Just because you said so... I am also putting this up in ilog...

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Dear Mantolives -

Your care and concern for my well being brought me to the verge of tears. If it weren`t for your hypocrisy, my tears would have actually rolled down my cheeks.

It just so happens that yours and mine struggle is not the same . While my struggle is against a thuggish government that imprisons its citizens without charges; that attacks and destroys the whole countries; that terrorizes the world with its weapons of mass destruction - your struggle is against the mullahs who barely make it to the parliament . If you want to have the same struggle as mine, I ask you to stop supporting Musharraf`s governemnt which has taken a leaf from the book of American government in terrorizing its own citizens.

My dear brother, I do agree with you on one count that extremism needs to be curtailed in pakistan - it is against the teachings of Islam. And when I say extremism needs to be curtailed, i mean people like Fazlur Rehman and you need to be locked away and forgotten.

We don`t think that people like you, who admire people like Arthur Shiraz (who routinely calls Islam `a desease`) are the right people for this struggle in Pakistan.

Please keep me in your prayers

Sincerely

Malik99

P.S: Could you please NOT post the same post in your ilog AND in the interacts. Why not just post it at one place?! It causes me the extra work to look for where else you have posted the same post and then cut and paste my response. :)

mantolives - you wrote ``About your earlier post... your objection to Christianity being superior to all religions... is it something you have against christianity... ``

No I have nothing against christianity. My point, which seems to have escaped your attention, is this: america is a declared secular state. And if the Attorney General, the enforcer of justice in land, makes a statement that Christianity is better than Islam, then he is in violation of the law of the land. If he wants to make such a statement, then lets stop being hypocrite and declare america a Christian country. That would make his statement less disturbing.

Persoanlly, if a similar statement was made by the Attorney General of Pakistan (although it is a decalred Islamic Republic), I would be disturbed too. Islam does not give us the right to call other religions evil.

Malik99...

tsk tsk ... One really can`t have a decent conversation with your type .... you are back to your old theme of name-calling as usual. I am referring to your post 67 ofcourse. I have neither spewed venom about the 3000 deaths on 9/11 nor have I ignored Iraqi deaths... all your accusations are merely figments of your imagination. Unfortunately this is the only tactic you know, because never once on these boards have you come up with a credible evidence other than garbage with no roots in reality. If I am the poster child of the `enslaved elite` as you say... you are also a poster child... indicative of all that is wrong with the Muslim world today... you know... the filthy poverty stricken, emaciated and ignorant little scumbag carrying an AK 47 Toy gun complete with an Al-Jihad headband...

About your earlier post... your objection to Christianity being superior to all religions... is it something you have against christianity... or do you really believe that no one has the right to claim their religion superior? If you really believe that ... will you admit that the state in Pakistan has no right to place Islam over all other religions? Or is it that your fight for equality starts and ends with Christianity`s oppression and the US Constitution?

So yes the American invasion of IRAQ is wrong... and morally unjustifiable ... Now let us see you say a word or two about the extermination of black people by the Arabs in Darfur.... oh you don`t know where that is now... do you? You can wail all you want about America`s crimes... but when it comes to crimes by your own co-religionists... you are completely and totally silent... Darfur for your information is in Sudan... that great Islamic country from Africa...

Yes... like I was saying ... the American invasion is wrong ... it is wrong just like Muhammad Bin Qasim`s invasion of Sindh was wrong... Tariq`s conquest of Spain was wrong... Mahmud`s pillage and plunder was wrong... the Ottoman Empire`s conquest of Eastern Europe was wrong... Mughal conquest of India was wrong... Imperialism is Wrong... period... so I mourn the deaths of Iraqis... but will anyone mourn the deaths of those millions of people who died because of the continuous Muslim imperial conquest spanning over 10 centuries?


First get over your hypocrisy... then make grandiose claims of equality and humanity. Those who live in glass houses can`t throw stones at others

-YLH

I have most of my family in canada and I know as many people in canada as in US on a very personal basis. I believe Canadians are living in a lalaland....I wish them good luck and should enjoy it as much they can..because we know lalllands don`t stay forever. Also they can afford to do so because real bad americans are living next door otherwise as much as we know about Canadian military might, even our Romair with his brigade would be enough to conquer the lalaland and then we can ask Urstruly to make sure lalaland complies with the Godly shariah.:)

doblec:
I love Canada but do not overlook its warts. I cannot say I fully understand what this young man or you went through; I am one of the very few lucky ones who was sent an air ticket for me and my wife and a lucrative government job awaiting me when I came here, if not, I would not have had the courage to leave a decent job in India to come here.
I think that the Canadian immigration system is quite unfair in some ways both to immigrants and to Canada. People were/are selected based on their educational qualifications and professional experience by the federal government but most provincial governments and private employers do not accept those qualifications as valid in many cases. This means unemployed and underemployed doctors, for example, while communities are in crying need for their services.
On a humourous note, when I was in immigration canada and the anti-immigration sentiment in the country was at its height (early 90s) I made a sarcastic suggestion to some of my colleagues. I said that they should make a frozen igloo at -30 degree in the annex of Canada`s New Delhi High Commission and make every prospective applicant spend one hour in it to ask them if they still wanted to apply for immigration. I also seriously suggested that they should show films to prospective desi immigrants about how their wife and children would talk back to them and how getting physical with their wife could send them out of their home and inside a prison.
Canada is a wonderful country but people should be fully prepared for what they can expect once they get here.

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Wajahat # 57 - I could not have said it better. You would see the anger and venom spweing from this liberal mullah aka Mantolives about the 3000 dead on 9/11. But when it comes to the 100,000 plus iraqi innocents dead, this confused man either stays quiet, or rationalizes with pseudo-intellectual statements.

Someone (or was it me?) has correctly labeled Mantolives as the poster child of confused enslaved elite in Pakistan.

Also, your response to stuka`s confusion on exactly what constitutes ``profiling`` is right on the mark.

Good job!

Dear Mantolives -

Thank you for your caring advice. I know how much you think about my well being. It brings me utter sadness that I am so far away from such a caring friend. Now please don`t advise me to leave this world too, since I find it to be so full of misery.

One way to fight hate is to flee - like what your relatives did. The other way is to stay and fight. I intend to be here and contribute my efforts to rid this country of the thugs who have hijacked it. I intend to do my part in making sure that never again an Attorney General takes office who calls christianity to be superior to other religions. I intend to make this country a better place than I found when I landed here. This is God`s land - Halliburton does not own it (yet).

If my little contributions make a difference and stop the US government in the future to bomb Lahore, I think that it would be worth it.

Regards

jang - indeed there is God`s will in everything. However, it does not absolve thinking people like you and me to forsake our responsibilities. Jews did not just sit around for Palestine to be handed to them. They conspired, fought and terrorized their way to occupying that land.

Dost-mitter,

You post on a letter from Dawn really painted a gloomy picture of Canada. Since you live here i would like to know what your views are of this beautiful country.

Each year over 200,000 people come to Canada to make it their homeland and only a small percentage goes back. This place requires hard work and if people who come to this country with the frame of mind that they will have the same luxuries that they had back home are the ones that are the first to go back. We all know how most people get good jobs back home (especially in Pakistan). Merit is hardly considered there and i guess its difficult especially for those people who are used to the ``Safarash`` culture back home. Personally i had made up my mind that i will do anything regardless of it being in my field or not. I came with the frame of mind that I`ll work hard and do whatever it takes to get pass the first few ``tough`` years. I went through the same difficulties that the writer (in Dawn) whet through but i never gave up. I now lead a comfortable life and am sure that i could not have had the same luxurious if i had spent the same amount of years in Pakistan.

I have known people who came here with little money and in 3 years did courses, found a good job/business and bought houses. I have also seen people come here with loads of money, waste a big amount on rent (because they liked to live alone) and then go back because they had to work and do house chores.

A middle class person coming from Pakistan will easily survive in Canada compared to ones that were filthy rich back home.

To do justice to Canada you have to post a success story as well as what the letter in Dawn said represents only a minority of people.

Dear Malik99 and Urstruly,

My dear brothers ... if both of you are so unhappy and persecuted in the United States, why don`t you follow the sunnah of the Holy Prophet (SAW) and do hijrah to a country that does not persecute you. Honestly I am not saying this sarcastically... but I think both of you have enough means to move from your current abode... and since neither of you own the US as your country (it would make sense if you were criticizing the US because you were dissenting Americans), then I don`t see why both of you are still sticking it out there. I have seen Urstruly in the past condone the attacks on twin towers, so it is clear that he thinks of the US as `Darul-Harb`....

Please don`t respond with the usual answer of material difficulties and financial worries... surely that shouldn`t stand in the way you pursuing your idealism.

Sincerely

Your brother in Islam... but not in bigotry and hypocrisy

YLH

Mantolives 53

Please dont takes this personally, but I think your post was aimless.

The Analysis in Romair`s article was never about how Bad Americans are as compared to the Good Canadians. It was merely a personal piece about personal experiances through the 9/11 period.

You have been leading what I call the Confused Liberal Mullah Bashers group here at chowk for quite a while. You write and I quote ``Good People are found everywhere``, does this in anyways apply to(In you views)the Islamists, the Mullah and the freedom fighters in Najaf. I think the problem is with your biased views of world events and not with this article at all. The problem is that the small minority of Elitist Liberals and your levels of confused righteousness has caused historically the current polarisation in Pakistan and amongst Muslims in general.

From you post it is evident that you feel that the American Actions since 9/11 are justified because of what happened then, well on that note, you might agree that the Iraqis might feel the same at what is primarily an American drive to bomb, Rape Iraq for the last two years, with a far greater loss of life than 9/11. And dont give me the balloney about the saddam hussain episode because that in view of the current event is non issue. One evil replaced by a far far bigger evil.

Feel free not to share your views, As I have already lost all interest in them, before you even touching your warrior laptop.

Rgds

W

Stuka

``no, Muslims were not ``profiled`` in Gujarat. The neighborhoods were attacked and they were killed.``

I think denial and little knowledge are extremely dangerous things, which makes you extraordinarily dangerous. Read the Independent commission report by Dr. Kamal Mitra Chenoy, S.P.Shukla, K.S. Subramanian and Achin Vanaik. All leading techocrats and Officials in India. Throughout the report you will find the evidence of this ``Profiling`` that you keep denying.

``But the attacks on Muslim properties and persons which started in Ahmedabad and some other urban and semi-urban areas of Gujarat on 28th February, were based on detailed information including the possession of lists. As the NHRC Interim Report points out there were “widespread reports and allegations of groups of well-organized persons, armed with mobile telephones and addresses, singling out certain homes and properties for death and destruction in certain districts…” Gujarat VHP Chairman Prof. Shastri claims that these lists were prepared only on February 28th morning. Even if this was true, it begs another question. What was the data base on which basis this list was prepared, and who prepared the basic document[s] and when? That surely could not have been prepared for tens of thousands of Muslim properties and residences just in one morning.

Earlier attempts at the preparation of such lists are a matter of public record or widely reported. On February 1st/2nd 1999, the then Director of Police [Intelligence] P.B. Upadhyaya sent a confidential circular ordering all Police Commissioners and district police officers to provide details including addresses of existing Muslim organisations, their leaders, as well as the names and addresses of Muslims participating in certain religious activities and related matters. [See Appendix 1] This circular, and a similar one pertaining to Christians, was challenged in the Gujarat High Court, and withdrawn a month later. Though this circular was withdrawn, some details about Muslim institutions and individuals along with their addresses, must have been collected in the intervening one month period.

Victims and other informants claimed that months earlier, persons claiming to represent a market survey firm visited their establishments to collect data about ownership, production, sales, number of employees, etc. They now believe that this may have been a prior attempt at ethnic mapping to identify Muslim businesses and establishments. The Gujarati language press allegedly played its part. On the basis of their experiences of earlier riots a number of Muslim entrepreneurs gave non-Muslim, mainly Hindu, names to their establishments, so that these were not readily identified as Muslim. It was claimed that some eight months earlier, Sandesh had published an article in which it listed many such establishments pointing out that despite their names these were Muslim owned. The rioters however, also attacked establishments that had Muslim ‘sleeping partners,’ a fact not widely known. It would appear therefore, that the mob leaders had access to government records from the sales tax/excise departments and the like, not normally available to the average citizen.

Another fact that appears to indicate prior planning for a communal attack according to informants is the collection of liquefied petroleum gas [LPG] gas cylinders. It is claimed that for some two weeks before February.28th, LPG cylinders were in short supply in Ahmedabad, and middle class consumers had to book them and stay in queue. But the rioters who took over Ahmedabad from February 28th were armed with thousands of LPG gas cylinders, obviously collected in advance, which they used to blow up Muslim commercial establishments and residences in the days that followed. These LPG cylinders are bulky and heavy metal cylinders that can only be transported by medium or heavy vehicles. The fact that such vehicles [including tempos and trucks], were available along with the much sought after LPG cylinders appears to indicate prior planning of some weeks, not to speak of days.

Taken together, all the available evidence including media reports, the reports of informants, eyewitnesses and others, appears to indicate a carefully planned attack over time on Muslim properties and persons throughout the State, beginning with Ahmedabad, with State connivance. The attack, it would appear, was planned well before February 27th. The ghastly events of Godhra appear to have merely provided the trigger for an anti-Muslim pogrom prepared well in advance. In that sense, the tragedy in Godhra is merely a coincidence. The premeditated and focussed attack on Gujarati Muslims was already planned, awaiting a trigger or pretext. The unexpected carnage in Godhra on February 27th unfortunately, provided that convenient trigger.``

I await your further denials.

mallick99

i think urstruly has correctly identified the war on terror (result of 9/11) as the main cause for concern for american muslim community. untill then, this was a happy community, mostly supportive of republicans. he has also spelt out the endgame..leave it to god to take care of things..a guaranteed success. jews after persecution formed israel, were part of a major event (WWII), where many others died as well. indians went to reservations, an unfortunate consequence of darwinism in the wild-west. blacks on the other hand, with help of others in the US (mostly the liberal jews) protested using the famous civil rights movement, and are well integrated inspite of color based bigotary.

so, what is the endgame (besides the one based on gods will)? please spell it out before its too late, and the game then is purely reactive.

stuka # 55 - perhaps your definition of ``profiling`` is different than is widely accepted. Profiling occurs when a segment of population is targeted, or held to special treatment - because of their beliefs, ethnicity etc.

#56dost-mitter
dm
this dawn article paints quite a gloomy picture of life in canada, i thought canada had a decent welfare state, don`t local authority provide housing?

recently quite a few canadians have shifted to britain for work, especially teachers.

regards

Before you leave home for Canada......


[from Dawn`s Magazine]

Immigration insults
By Rohail Ahmed

Leaving your homeland in search of better future prospects can be a dream-shattering experience.

As the aeroplane began its descent to Toronto`s Pearson International airport, my heart started to pound with excitement and fear. I was wondering what lay ahead for me in a country where I was now going to live all my life, hoping to build a promising future.

It all started as the process of `immigration` to Canada began. It was advertised in the local newspapers and Canada was dubbed as place `to be` where everyone from the Third World wanted to settle.

Most immigrants and potential applicants harbour hopes that once they reach Canada, all their problems and so-called injustices done to them in their homelands would vanish into thin air and they would be able to breathe fresh air with loads of dollars rolling into their bank accounts. Therefore most people don`t worry about going through the hassle of preparing immigration papers, paying different kinds of fee, which sometimes they can ill afford. And the most troublesome of all, saying goodbye to their dear homeland which once provided them with so much love and support over the years. It`s because of their countries that they`re accepted and got the green signal from immigration officials in Canada. Many even squander their lifetime savings to pay the hefty charges of immigration agents who claim guaranteed good results for their services, thus ripping people off; but they are actually not better than mere post office boxes.

Now coming back to my journey to Canada. As I had already informed my relatives in Canada, they were there to welcome me at Toronto`s international airport. I stayed with them initially until I found a place to get started.

In Canada, to find a small apartment for yourself is not an easy task for it requires either a suitable job or personal guarantee from someone known. So if you are not blessed enough to meet these requirements, then forget the comforts of your own accommodation and you will be forced to stay with somebody (relative or a friend) or share it with someone you don`t even know by sharing the rent. If you are lucky, you can also find some apartment available to sublet from the original leaseholder, but it would be for a shorter period during which you have to find an employment to meet rental qualifications. Throw your privacy out of the window and prepare to live with another family in the same single-room accommodation. Exciting, isn`t it? Not to mention that it`s a rented unit unlike the situation in Pakistan where most people have a house and don`t have to pay a hefty rent every month. So I tried very hard but was unable to lay my hands on any suitable job. One of the reasons was that a college or university degree obtained from the Third World is not acceptable to the so-called developed countries. Also, one has to experience the fact that once you land in a foreign land, you lose your real identity. One has to literary start from scratch and only if one is lucky and happens to be at the right place at the right time, one can get a suitable job.

So I was going through really desperate times and wanted to take care of my fast vanishing savings. As a result, I started doing odd jobs like tele-marketing and a packing job at a factory and working part time at a fast food takeaway outlet. Though I was making enough to earn a living, I had begun seriously regretting the day I decided to leave the job and comfortable lifestyle in my country. With the passage of time, reality started to sink in that things were not as I had expected. I also started sharing accommodation with some bachelors passing through similar circumstances as I could ill afford to continue paying rent.

Despite the constant search, I was not able to find a reasonable job let alone a job in my area of expertise. Only odd job seemed to be the way to go about it, but it wasn`t what I had come to Canada for. The situation reminds me of a person from India who was working with me at a departmental store. He had been a finance manager in a multinational organization in India with almost 12 years of experience, but even with that qualifications he was unable to find a lower level job in Canada. After spending two years in Canada with his family, he was so hard pressed that he used to go to cheap Chinese stores to buy food items. He would fondly remember the days when in India his servant would perform all such daily chores.

The weather in Canada is usually cold and is not suitable to do outdoor work if one is not healthy enough. In winter it gets extremely cold with temperatures dropping to -30 degrees Centigrade to -40O degrees Centigrade.

The people, particularly with conservative backgrounds, face another problem. Children growing in this free society often get spoiled and parents lose control over them. This happens as children try to be a part of the Canadian society so as not to be isolated or socially alienated from the world they see around them. In the process, with the passage of time, they become more associated with Western cultural values and don`t like their parents` traditions.

It`s been two years since I first landed here and I am still looking for a proper direction to move in. I have now decided to do a course in order to get some acceptability in the job market; but the future still seems very uncertain. Countless other immigrants are also passing through the same phase, especially those with large families.

I have a sincere advice for those who are eager to fly to Canada, a country the Americans call ``frozen wasteland in the north or a parking lot`` that they should think at least 100 times before packing their bags to come here.

``All i suggested was that jews were profiled before being massacred in Germany,``

True.

``Indians were profiled before getting annhilated in North America,``

Not true.

`` blacks were profiled before put in bantustans in South Africa,``

Not true.

``blacks are still profiled in US. ``

True and they are the biggest supporters of profiling Muslims/Arabs.

I don`t think you understand the term profiling in a law enforcement aspect. And before you start, no, Muslims were not ``profiled`` in Gujarat. The neighborhoods were attacked and they were killed.

Manto

Your post was the only authentic one that touched the heart of the matter.

Romair...

Good ... Good you are enjoying yourself... and declaring Canada to be superior to the United States... (it was easier to read the US constitution back to back... US constitution is much more idealistic than the Canadian constitution btw).... but good that you find Canada as such a safe haven...

But have you considered the fact that no `twin towers` have been attacked in Canada... no capital buildings have been destroyed... yet... Knowing the terrorists... I am sure they will soon head for Canada... Then where will you go next? Maybe France? ... that will be good... then you can compare European goras with North American Goras... and draw new conclusions...


I am disturbed by your article... I wouldn`t want to be in a position, whereby a gora, because of anti-American sentiment, moves from Lahore to Dehli, and starts talking about how much better India is than Pakistan... even if it is better ... Good people are found everywhere ... you can`t compare the Americans with the Canadians, untill and unless the Canadians too have gone through the same ordeal as the Americans...


Please don`t take it personally... but I think your article was pointless.


-YLH

malik99

I was never convinced, even before 9/11, that the American value of ``unreasonable searches`