Twilight of a Passionate Love Affair

A number of fronts......

- You and your father were lucky to have the patience to talk to each other. These days they both can`t understand each other.

- On Haroon Siddiqui being a good journalist......he sure is a Muslim but from India thus he is good at what he does..... (name a single Pakistani desi that has done well and is know by many?)
- Seems you have a leg fetish... the reason why i say that is because at 10 you were checking legs out.....
- See a lot of closeness between you and your father..... which is good, as you have the courage to accept the fact that you learnt thing from him.....
- As for desi and the way the acted after Sept. 11th....... what could they do.... they were terrified as they had never experienced this before... felt sorry for them but sometimes felt happy..... they now know how minorities feel in Pakistan.
- It`s nice to hear from someone who studied and lived in the US that Canada is the place where you would like to bring up your kids.

I can go on and on...... however, a nice way to present you thoughts....

Romair,
This is a lovely essay, laced with humor. Very engaging. I enjoyed reading it and may even reread it. Hope to read more from you.

Romair,

Your article reveals a subtle but unmistakable anger and resentment against the US. I understand that you don`t like US foreign policy especially in Iraq. While you admire the US society and its accomplishments, you also seem to wish that somehow it was brought down to its knees.

While I am no admirer of US Iraq policy, the fact remains that the entire chain of events was triggered by 9/11. The US did not start all this; in fact, they did not really care what was going on in Iraq or Afghanistan prior to 9/11. On 9/11, a war was declared on the US and it is doing its best to fight that war against an invisible enemy to the best of its abilities. The US definitely made a mistake with the Iraq war but, in general, the war on terror is a legitimate conflict between the forces of civilization and the destructive, loony jihadis, who are worse than animals in their behavior. Canada can take the high road because it was not attacked on 9/11. If it were, who knows how the Canadians would have behaved? If Pakistan was attacked like that, how would Pakistanis behave? I think in light of the grave provocation on 9/11, Americans in general have conducted themselves with admirable restraint.

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This was a very lively piece; haunting at times but conversational in affect. Thank you for sharing it with CHOWK readership. Please do come back.

Mohammed Amjed

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doublec
(name a single Pakistani desi that has done well and is know by many?)
You guys do good to put other down? Is Performance criteria of intelligence measued by getting an editoril job in NEWSWEEK? Grow up dude!!
How about ONE BILION without an olympic gold medal?

Umair
Nice article. I enjoyed a great eal.

Umair - a very well written essay. you summed up all those small bits and pieces that occured in the eventful 2003 in Canada.

During my stay in Canada, I used to regularly watch CBC. After years of watching CNN, I had almost forgotten what true journalism looked like. As opposed to the rating driven news programs on CNN, such as Crossfire - where soundbites are more important than in-depth analysis, it was a welcome surprise when I saw the serious investigative journalism occuring on CBC. My ears were not used to hearing the taboo arguments being made on national TV. It was in Canada that I realized what a free media looked like. I particularly looked forward to watching this program called ``The Passionate Eye``. In this program they would show a documentary on a particular subject, lets say Palestine, and then they would have ordinary people from Canada in studio debating the subject.

A few words about Israel (Izzy) Asper`s media empire. This man, and his family, is on a mission to make Canadian media as docile and compliant as the US media. He does not hesitate to fire columnists who do not tow his line on Israel. In fact, he made this policy that the editorial of his various regional newspapers under his ownership would be written in Calgary - where he lived. This was an attempt to control the editorials. I salute the brave journalists (including Haroon Siddiqui) who protested and fought tooth and nail against these fascist acts.

One of Izzy`s flagship newspaper, National Post, did its best to push Canada into the fire of Iraq war, with sensational stories and editorials. This paper also had a bit of thuggish attitude. One of its reporter, Stewert Bell, wrote an article which essentially said that Muslims in Canada cannot be trusted. As one would expect, some muslims wrote him emails protesting his reporting. Unfortunately (and stupidly) some of these muslims used their company`s email account to do that. Stewart had his staff call up the companies` presidents/CEOs, telling them the name of their employees who had written emails, and asking whether the company endorsed their views, since they were expressed using company`s email account!!!!!

An interesting tid bit about Fareed Zakaria. At 28 he became the youngest Managing Director of the monthly Foreign Affairs magazine - a very conservative journal. His brother, Arshad Zakaria, who I met while working at Merrill Lynch, became one of the youngest Managing Director in Merrill Lynch`s history - also at 28.

Hello Umair, that was a good article, thanks.

Some day you should try to bring Australia and New Zealand into the comparative, too, as representatives of the various ``goraa`` new world experiments.

But why is your love affair reaching (a) twilight so soon?

cheers/veeresh

Malik99, nice comments. I too read Fareed Zakaria in Newsweek. I agree that his views are indeed very conservative and right wing. Anyways its good to have a desi journalist in Int`l media.

great article...really enjoyed it...didnt want it to end...and then I read the interacts...it was only then that I realized that you are Romair...huge difference in your interacts and articles...I like Umair Raja more than Romair

regards

Kabuli

P.S. I wanted to study in Vancouver...dad disagreed...makes me think what might have been if I had gone to UBC.

Hi umair, GR here. A nice look at your favourite country right? Stiill waiting for that
post card you promised. Must read your other noncanadian matter as well.

This is clearly one of the finest pieces of writing I have come across at chowk for past so many years. Thanks for sharing your feelings and experiences with us. I find them enlightening and motivating. A job well done.

I think America needs a complete overhaul in its outlook towards the rest of the world - a complete paradigm shift, if it wants to survive as a respected and law abiding citizen of this perpetually shrinking world. My personal assessment is that the down-ward spiral that US has caught itself into is irreversible - I do not see any DeGaul on the horizon who could save America now. Unfortunately, what goes up, must come down. This is the law of nature.

Romair:
This message from the Qura`an about having an ``aloof-attachment`` with the earthly-matters is perhaps what your father was giving. The english equivalent you have given does not do convey this sense. So what did he really say?

butaaN-e veh O gumaaN,....?
Faraib soo-O-ziaN...?

P.S: Good mental odyssey; mgar ``abhee ishque kay imtihaaN aur bhee haiN``

Umair
Simply brilliant article

Akbar ahmed was a professor at Cambridge, he made tv documentary about islam, was a regular writer for guardian newspaper before he shifted to America.

He wrote to the eternal shame of the Europeans the’ve virtually wiped out jews, never in the history of mankind have so few contributed so much.

BTW the gora’s don’t regard them as one of their own.
Regards
Your fellow kashmiri
aslam

I read an article in Dawn`s Magazine for last weekend; it was written by an extremely bitter immigrant who obviously wasn`t enjoying his life in Canada. The whole article gave a very negative vibe, and if that was not enough, the writer called Canada the ``frozen wasteland in the north or a parking lot``. I felt this angered sadness/sadened anger. With the kind of perspective the writer had, I won`t be surprised of he packs his bag and returns to Pakistan mumbling about the `insult` immigration had been.

But this article is great. I think all immigrants - probably especially us desis - should really get into the swing of things here. By that I mean, be a part of things Canadian so that we don`t have our elephant-egos trampled upon by being considered different. I find many desis/muslim folks engrossed too much in ensuring that August 14th/Eid comes across as a very important occassion for their kids - great! learning experience and such, right? - but what happens to us when it is Canada Day or something else (that protest, for example). It seems odd that one should live/work/study/play/sleep in Canada and at the end of the day, feel more (Put foreign origin nationality here) than anything .... I don`t think I got that across clearly. Back in highschool, this guy who was East European by origin was arguing over standing for O Canada - ``but I am not a Canadian!`` - I am not sure what he meant by that. The point is, it seemed that a lot of fellow desis had a similar point of view. They were mostly joshilay jawan with the kind of passion for their faith/country (of origin, ofcourse) that would send them flying into jihad or something silly like that. My question used to be, well, if you are so much in love with the place where you came from & that you ...like, get offended if some gora is nice enough to call you Canadian ... then why the hell not go back to where you came from? Yeah, go back to where you came from, your country must need all that love you got for it.

One gora friend said he looked forward to talking to me as a Canadian citizen when I become one but he also opposed the idea of having dual nationality. My brown/desi/whatever you wanna call it ego was deeply offended - I thought, abey goray, I will still be as brown and I will still talk the same way so why are you so excited about me becoming a Canadian.Canadian. I asked him the same question in a more civilized manner. He replied by saying that with dual nationality I would never really be very proud of just one place. I was still offended. It didn`t make sense. How can I not love both Canada and Pakistan and and how can I not be proud of my country and my country of origin? But I think now (having read this article and having reflected upon my 3 years in Canada) I understand what he meant ... I can`t decide if I am a Canadian, a Pakistani, a Canadian Pakistani, Asian, Canadian Muslim? I think I should work on being a Canadian.Canadian.

Cheers.

Romair

This was an excellent piece and a welcome break from recent political diatribe appearing on chowk. I particularly liked the way you linked personal events from your life to drive home the point you are trying to make throughout this article.

In reference to Media, there alsmot seems like a comfortable numb around most political broadcasts from the Mainstream media and the bias they represent. It is also equally heartening to see alternative media sources to bring the truth out on the turf. I must confess however I am as unaware of CBS as I am of CNN, being from a different continent altogether. However here in UK, you will see quite a few after 11.00pm media documentaries showing the ground realities of the various war zones of the world, Palestine and Iraq.

Thank you for this piece which I am sure is outstanding in every way.

Rgds

Syed Ali

Nice article Romair ......

Faruk

Romair:
Couldn`t have said it better myself! Now, I can pass on the baton of Captain Canada on chowk to you:-).
It`s a really heartwarming love story. I hope that this love at first sight endures and overcomes ``ishq ke imtehaan`` as echoboom so delicately put it. For example, will the Canadian attitude be so tolerant if the CN Tower or the Parliament Hill were made the targets of the next attack?
BTW, do you know the favourite news program of my youngest daughter, who is a diehard anti-globalist, anti-american and a fan of the CBC? It`s the Jim Lehrer hour at the american PBS. Go figure!
More later!

#7 Hot -Tea...... firstly i was born in Pakistan so don`t confuse me for an Indian. Secondly i am not putting others down but rather being critical at Pakistani desi`s. The reason why i was being critical is because Pakistani desi`s who live in Europe or NA have a problem in seeing any other P. desi succeed. We are the ones who try our best to bring someone down. Instead of being happy with other desi`s accomplishments we are jealous. Thirdly you should be man enough to take criticism and learn from it and not be a hot head and refuse to listen.

# 8 Malik99.... It`s a good thing that National Post is one of the least read newspapers.

# 14 Syd, become a Canadian Canadian..... there is no use is dual nationality.... if you want to visit Pakistan then pay the $100 for the visa. I agree with you a lot on how Pakistani desi get stuck in their own culture and all. They are having one in Markham on the 14th. We desi`s should learn everything about the goars.... didn`t they do the same when the came to sell tea in India?

DM
//...will the Canadian attitude be so tolerant if the CN Tower or the Parliament Hill were made the targets of the next attack? ...//

No way - no self-respecting nation would take such blatant attacks on its soul without drawing blood. All the holier-than-thou sermons will go swiftly out of the window - in Canada - or any other self-proclaimed tolerant nation in the world.

Just like it happened in US.

Uncle Sam used to do exactly the same - issue empty sermons from the pulpit - to all and sundry ... beat up on countries who have been fighting Jihadis, most vicious terrorist force ever to have crawled on earth .... rubbing salt unto their grievous wounds with lectures about human rigthts and what not ... with a wink and nod towards the same jihadis who it is trying battle now.

That was then. Now, Uncle Sam is more worldly, having endured the terror first hand .... has abandoned the high horse and learning to cope with jihad in its midst - just like many others around the world have been battling it out for so many years.

Same might happen to Canada, too. Terror has been globalised. So all those well-meaning folks frothing at mouth with anti-american rhetoric should take deep breath and think before they go out on sunday ``protest`` against american ``hegemony``.

Bush`s antics notwithstanding - war on terrorists have to fought. Beating up America would not help.

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Well done!


Syd,

There`s no such thing as a Canadian-Canadian. There are Amero-wannabe-Canadians, Franco-Canadians, Anglo-Canadians, but no Canadian-Canadian (except Don Cherry). One thing that creeps us Canadians out is those new Candians that try to be more Canadian than Canadian. So stick with (whatver)-Canadian. It`s okay...it`s the Canadian way. :-)

canadians are far less nationalistic than americans. americans have strong and distinct cultural foundation (mom-apple pie-jefferson-lincoln-emerson-thoroue-bald eagle-jazz-blue jeans-michael jackson-coke-microsoft-cisco-ibm etc), this makes them proud nationalist, whereas canadians are kind of plain-vanila unpretentious working-class folks without pedigree problems and hangups. they all live within 50 miles of the US border.

ummaites (universal brotherhood believers) would generally love a non-nationalistic place like canda.

Romair,
I loved it! It was funny, interesting, and meaningful. A great piece of work. Many people have said that Canada is an excellent and tolerant country to live and work in--perhaps I shall go there and see...it would be interesting to compare and contrast it to the UK (which is, by and large, extremely tolerant and multicultural too, despite Mr. Blair being perpetually in Bush`s bum!)

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Garam_chai #7: “Nice article”
Malik99 #: “a very well written essay”
Vereesh #9: “that was a good article”
Syd #14: “But this article is great.”
Aslam644 #15: “Simply brilliant article”
Faruk #18: “Nice article”

Bana hai shah ka masaahib phiray hai itrata
Wagarna shaher mein Ghalib kee aabroo kiya hai

Doublec #3 “Seems you have a leg fetish... the reason why i say that is because at 10 you were checking legs out.....”

Beparda nazar aain jo kal chand beebiaan
Akbar zamin mein ghairat-e-qaumi se garr giyaa
Poocha keh bibi aap ka parda kahan gayaa
Kehne lagin keh aql pe mardon ki parr gayaa

Niki777 4: “AND, please, fall in love , get laid, whichever end and then forget if you have to.Live, man”

Ghum-e-arzoo ka Hasrat, sabab aur kiya bataoon
Meri himmatoon kee pasti, maray shauq kee bulundi

kabuliwallah #11: ``huge difference in your interacts and articles...I like Umair Raja more than Romair``

Farsi bein taaba beeni, naqsh hayee, rang-e-rang
Bagzar az majmoo-e-Urdu kay bay-rang mann ast

Aboutturn #12: “GR here…..Stiill waiting for that post card you promised.``

Khoob parda hai key chilman say lagey baithey hain
Saaf chuptey bhi nahin, saamney aatey bhi nahin

Urstruly #13: “I think America needs a complete overhaul in its outlook towards the rest of the world - a complete paradigm shift,”

Hum ko unn say wafa kee hai umeed
Jo nahin janatey wafa kiya hay

Echoboom #16: “abhee ishque kay imtihaaN aur bhee haiN”

Ishq nay Ghalib nakamma kar diya
Warna hum bhi aadmi thay kaam kay

Wajahat #17: “I particularly liked the way you linked personal events from your life to drive home the point you are trying to make throughout this article.”

Bohot pehle say un qadmon ki aahat jan laytay hain
Tujhe ay zindagi ham dour say pehchan laytay hain’

Dost-mittar #19: “Now, I can pass on the baton of Captain Canada on chowk to you:”

Tumharey shaher ka mausam bara suhana lagey
Mein aik shaam chura loon agar bura na lagay

Soysauce #2: “Hope to read more from you.”
Mohammadamjed #5: “Please do come back”

Mein nahin hoon naghma-e-jaan-fishaa
Mujhey sunn kay koee karay ga kiya
Mein baray barog kee hoon sadaa
Mein baray dukhon kee pukar hoon

Will Romair or anyone else here please bring the shairi into English, please? Grateful indeed.

Romair Sahib

Gustakhi maaf, could I suggest another shair for all the taareef`s coming your way?

``Mujh tak kab unki bazm me aata tha daur-e-jaam
Saqi ne kuchh mila na diya ho sharaab me``

Romair

Very well written.

No matter what you say, you will always miss Margalla, dust, noise, chaos, mamoons, uncles, servants, world of your youth.....

However, your children will be proper Canadians. Actually you are sacrificing your life for your children.

nhk

Romair

Very well written.

No matter what you say, you will always miss Margalla, dust, noise, chaos, mamoons, uncles, servants, world of your youth.....

However, your children will be proper Canadians. Actually you are sacrificing your life for your children.

nhk

romair:
``Tumharey shaher ka mausam bara suhana lagey
Mein aik shaam chura loon agar bura na lagay ``

Vo aayen hamare kaneda mein khuda ki kudrat hai
Kabhi hum unko kabhi apne kaneda ko dekhate hain!

Jang # 24 - you wrote ``canadians are far less nationalistic than americans.``.

I am not sure if this is really the case. Your suggestion that americans have reasons to be nationalistic because they have coca cola - michael jackson - IBM etc, does not explain why Pakistanis or Indians tend to be more nationalistic than Americans.

Also, my observation is that an average american is generally a very docile person when it comes to nationalism. However, he/she can be easily whipped up into nationalistic-flag-waving fervor by their government. But if you ask this frenzied american nationalist the roots and the logic of his nationalism, he would be hard pressed to present a rational argument for his stance. ``I love freedom``, ``they are terrorists (or communists)``, ``we need to get the job done over there``, ``support the troops`` etc are typically the pet phrases of an average Joe Nationalist in america. The fact that Americans find themselves in a state of war with different parts of the world perhaps explain these traces of nationalism much more than Coca Cola and Michael Jackson. There are very few nationalists like Patrick Buchanan, who can rationalize and articluate their nationalist stands.

In contrast, I found Canadians to be very rational and genuinely proud of their country. In fact, Canadians go to great length in ensuring visitors that they are un-america. My suggestions to my canadian friends that ``Canada is just like america`` did not sit very well with them. I wish you were there to see the nationalist fervor when the Canadian men`s AND women`s hockey teams won gold in the Salt Lake City`s winter olympics in 2002. Within a few minutes of the victories, the streets of Toronto thronged with hundreds of thousands of excited people. I would not expect the same in US if its national team wins in olympics.

Romair
Could it be you are in love with Canada because of it’s similarities with Kashmir.
Lakes, pine forests, frozen wastelands,mountains.

Regards
aslam

Being a Pakistani-Canadian I loved your article. I liked your relaxed, easy-going style and also I completely understood the differences you were talking about between Canada and America. What makes Canada so great is its media. And its openess and humility.

Keep writing,
Sadaf

#27 Romair,
I meant I hope to read more (essays) from you in english...

34 by malik99

no no hockey-fans in canada is a separate nationality altogether, there is no comparison.
what i mean is there is a brand america and americans identify with it very strongly. they have extremely lively debates about what is american and they continually re-discover it. they are insular, dont really care for rest of the world, so they may sound ``less-rational`` to the us FOBs.

its wrong to say that americans can be whipped in a frenzy, there was none visible after 9/11.

canadians debate more about palestine.

jang - you write ``its wrong to say that americans can be whipped in a frenzy, there was none visible after 9/11.``

not immediately after 9/11. But if you were to listen to the callers who call into the radio talk shows (which in 99% of the case happen to be ultra conservative / nationalist), watch FOX, CNN, MSNBC etc you will know what i mean by frenzy. This frenzy is different than the ones we see in Pakistan / India where people come out in the streets and burn the buses. This a controlled and slow frenzy at this time - which i am afraid in due time will be prove catastrophic for american muslims.

I somewhat agree with your assertion that americans ``continually re-discover`` what is american and they tend not to care about the rest of the world. To some extent it is true, but to a large extent the nationalism in america gets its nurturing from the frequent wars this nation ends up going to. Between the cold and the hot wars, US has been perpetually at war since 1939. As one columnist recently wrote ``War defines us``.

#37 Jang
Americans can`t be whipped into a frenzy? News to me. Two countries reduced to rubble and I suppose it was all cool & calculated not frenzied.

malic99

``which i am afraid in due time will be prove catastrophic for american muslims. ``

interesting. what would be a catastrophy? a wipe-out like the one done for red-indians or stuff like profiling (e.g. driving-while-black) that you are talking about? what trends have you observed towards such a catastrophy for muslims in the US (american or immigrant?) i have not personally faced much nor many of my muslim collegues. i have however seen that defence companies tend to stay away from hiring middle-easterners (profiling caution).
profiling hiring happens also for older folks, folks with bad credit history (companies do backgound checks routinely) and folks with body odor. i have not noticed much other frenzy against me (who to an untrained eye is as good as a pakistani). so any trends you can describe will be valuable.

#38 by malik99

mallik, there is a superficial talk-show-fox based nationalism and then there is one you get when you interact personally americans in communities and schools and soccer practices. the first is one facet, only visible face without personal interaction.

my opinion is americans spend a lot of time in schools and colleges discussing what it means to be an american citizen (and not much on rest of the world like palestine). the nationalism they develope out of this excercise i find very true. they really get it, and their convictions are deep. nothing to do with wars (IMO).

others (incl europeans/canadians) can discuss and bullshit ad infinitum about all topics in the world-all gas, but lack the unique (somewhat smug) american convictions, which are as i mentioned nurtured through a good schooling. not something that is merely hammerd in, no parroting. all kinds of questioning goes on all the time, inclusive of flag burning, and pledge of allegiance.

so amricans are on strong footing in understanding local issues, and politics. now post 9/11, the next generation is going to be far more worldly .. thanks to mr Laden.

I have exhausted my reservoir of Urdu ash-aar. So over to English prose.....

Thanks to Chowk Staff for printing the article....And to everyone who read it....

For a long time, I thought all gora countries were the same. Now I don`t think so. Now I think they are almost the same. But there are 10-20% differences. These differences may not be fully noticeable to even those born in these countries. However, they can be easily picked up by immigrants who have lived in multiple gora countries.

Canadians and Americans are about as similar as any two people(s) in the world can get. One cannot pick them out in the crowd. But the subtle differences between how the two view the world, and their own positions in it, is what makes one a better place than the other, for immigrants; specifically Muslim immigrants.

I think people should debate the differences between various gora countries, and try to understand them. Much like they debate the differences between other issues and concepts. Just like it is incorrect for the USA to think that Arabs are jealous of democracy and hate the West (rather than accepting the truth that Arabs just hate the USA, not the whole West), similarly it is wrong for Muslims to put all goras into the same bucket.........

Umair,

instead of wasting countless hours on replies on CHOWK

chasing the windmills of feudalism, the Bhutto`s, other politicians etc. while

defending the uniformed in Pakistan, you should seriously think of writing

the great Canadian novel.

Although this romance of yours with Canada can also turn sour at any minute,

and I cannot agree with some of your points (regarding the USA),

I sure enjoyed reading this writing

of yours. Wonderful job!

Ras

#42 Romair

(I think people should debate the differences between various gora countries, and try to understand them.)

If and when your love affair with Canada really ends, you should seriously consider relocating to England the motherland of various Gora transplants around the World e.g America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. Hopefully by that time Labour party would have ditched Bush’s ‘Poodle’ Blair because he’s becoming a serious liability for them, despite the fact 1 million Britons demonstrated against the war, he went ahead regardless, now he has to face the consequences.

What does England offer?
England is a green and pleasant land with mild winters, national health service free at the point of need, good education system world renown Universities e.g Oxford, Cambridge.
It offers culture and history which none of the transplants can?.
Booming economy with London as the financial capital of Europe, skills shortages with 3000 medical staff recruited from south Africa alone last year. One serious problem of all this boom is that house prices have litterly gone through the roof, Indian industrialist Lakshmi mittel paid $100 million dollars for a house in London.

Does size matter?
England is quite small, but with the expansion of European Union you could live and work in any 25 member countries, and English is the unofficial lingua franca of Europe.
Most European cities are 1 to 2 flight hours away, which mean you could visit picturesque Switzerland, tango in Paris or visit historic Moorish cities in Spain.

Multicultural.
England is increasingly becoming multicultural with Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, it has sizable community of Mirpuris in every town, with halal meat shops and kashmiri restaurants.
Warning!!
Avoid Bradfordistan for similar reason as Gujerat India.

#44 by aslam644

Aslam, england/london is indeed a fun place to hang out based on my visits there. only -ve i have (for living there) is that its crowded and expensive. london rocks for food. i have not been to the muhallas like bradfordistan or southhall however. and soho seems to be completely under russian (eastern european) mafia control. one more -ve thing..i cant stand the eurotrash, they stink (literally).

soy
``Americans can`t be whipped into a frenzy? News to me. Two countries reduced to rubble and I suppose it was all cool & calculated not frenzied. ``

yes.

jang # 39 - you write ``interesting. what would be a catastrophy? a wipe-out like the one done for red-indians or stuff like profiling (e.g. driving-while-black) that you are talking about?``

if you think ``stuff`` like profiling is a something to shrug your shoulders at, then i am not sure how I can present my further arguments.

please keep in mind that jews were also merely ``profiled`` by Nazis - afterall a vast majority of Germans genuinely thought that Jews had made wealth at the expense of germans, and had stabbed them in the back during WWI. So I am sure you are ok with that profiling too?!! If you are not ok with the Jewish profiling by Nazis, then I think you are a hypocrite and a the slave of worst kind who seems to be comfy over the profiling of his fellow muslims. The rate this profiling is going, pretty soon you or your family member will soon find themselves ``profiled`` too. Its only a matter of time.

It is profiling like these that leads to the wipe-out of entire people. ``A good indian is a dead indian`` was the way white profiled american indians. Look where they are now!

also, your point that the 20 million listeners of rush limbaugh, the 15 million of Sean Hannity, the 10 million of Laura Ingram, and the 10 million of Mike Savage do not represent the middle america, then i am not sure how I can present other arguments to you.

#46 jang

you are quite right London is expensive and overcrowded, but there is more to England than just London, the countryside and hills of Derbyshire are breathtakingly beautiful, so is the English Riviera in cornwall.

During summer thousand of Canadians, Americans, Australians descend on northern industrial towns in search of their roots, visiting cemeteries where their parents or grand parents are buried , churches where weddings of their parents were held , schools they parents attended, nostalgia is a big business England must earn billions.

Sadly in northern cities the drug and prostitution mafia is dominated by mirpuri young men, they drive around in flashy cars and have villas in Spain and Cyprus, they fathers must be turning in their graves.

Regards
aslam

#49 by malik99

malik you are getting all upset. i am trying to understand what specifically you meant by a catastrophy (i get confused by rhetoric) so i seeked clarification. with specifics, there is a possibility of adressing the issue. while the rhetoric endgame aim is always catasrophic. its important to not whip-up a frenzy and understand the nature of the being.

jang # 50 - i was not upset in my previous post - i was merely being myself when i read arguments such as these.

I am not sure what specifics are warranted by your argument which seems to rationalize profiling. All i suggested was that jews were profiled before being massacred in Germany, Indians were profiled before getting annhilated in North America, blacks were profiled before put in bantustans in South Africa, blacks are still profiled in US. In all these cases, profiling led to catastrophies. The world has gone through a lot of bloodshed and catastrophies because of these seemingly rational ``profilings``. So for thinking mind like you to ``seek clarification with specifics`` on the issue of profiling is, with all due respect, quite cute :)

malik99

I was never convinced, even before 9/11, that the American value of ``unreasonable searches``, which comes thru their constitution, stands on a solid ground. It never has for the past 250 years, as you elaborated in your post. What makes a search ``reasonable`` is purely subjective and a matter of individual discretion of the authority that is conducting the search. How do you gage one`s ``discretion`` is beyond me. But now that America has declared war on all Muslims, of whom, 90% are non-white, profiling is a necessary evil. Most of the people who are subjected to ``unreasonable searches`` do not have constitutional protection anyway, since they are not citizens. Hence, it is a moral burden of impossible measure that US adminsitration and its people will have to bear. And it is not in human capacity to bear such burden, especially, when those who are charged with such duty, have absolute powers, as individuals and as nation. And everybody knows what absolute power does - it corrupts absolutely and hence Gitmo and abu Gharaib. Therefore, lives will be destroyed and businesses will be ruined and humans will suffer in the coming several years as long as this war doesn`t find a political solution to follow. Those who feel immune today will be subjected to it in due course. This is the nature of war anyway. So, in short the root cause of this evil is the war and not the moral degenracy of American people. War however, will take away the sense of right and wrong in due course. So, is there a hope? Yes, God always replaces a system of injustice and human suffering with a better one. Order does emerge after chaos. What goes up, must come down.

Romair...

Good ... Good you are enjoying yourself... and declaring Canada to be superior to the United States... (it was easier to read the US constitution back to back... US constitution is much more idealistic than the Canadian constitution btw).... but good that you find Canada as such a safe haven...

But have you considered the fact that no `twin towers` have been attacked in Canada... no capital buildings have been destroyed... yet... Knowing the terrorists... I am sure they will soon head for Canada... Then where will you go next? Maybe France? ... that will be good... then you can compare European goras with North American Goras... and draw new conclusions...


I am disturbed by your article... I wouldn`t want to be in a position, whereby a gora, because of anti-American sentiment, moves from Lahore to Dehli, and starts talking about how much better India is than Pakistan... even if it is better ... Good people are found everywhere ... you can`t compare the Americans with the Canadians, untill and unless the Canadians too have gone through the same ordeal as the Americans...


Please don`t take it personally... but I think your article was pointless.


-YLH

Manto

Your post was the only authentic one that touched the heart of the matter.

``All i suggested was that jews were profiled before being massacred in Germany,``

True.

``Indians were profiled before getting annhilated in North America,``

Not true.

`` blacks were profiled before put in bantustans in South Africa,``

Not true.

``blacks are still profiled in US. ``

True and they are the biggest supporters of profiling Muslims/Arabs.

I don`t think you understand the term profiling in a law enforcement aspect. And before you start, no, Muslims were not ``profiled`` in Gujarat. The neighborhoods were attacked and they were killed.

Before you leave home for Canada......


[from Dawn`s Magazine]

Immigration insults
By Rohail Ahmed

Leaving your homeland in search of better future prospects can be a dream-shattering experience.

As the aeroplane began its descent to Toronto`s Pearson International airport, my heart started to pound with excitement and fear. I was wondering what lay ahead for me in a country where I was now going to live all my life, hoping to build a promising future.

It all started as the process of `immigration` to Canada began. It was advertised in the local newspapers and Canada was dubbed as place `to be` where everyone from the Third World wanted to settle.

Most immigrants and potential applicants harbour hopes that once they reach Canada, all their problems and so-called injustices done to them in their homelands would vanish into thin air and they would be able to breathe fresh air with loads of dollars rolling into their bank accounts. Therefore most people don`t worry about going through the hassle of preparing immigration papers, paying different kinds of fee, which sometimes they can ill afford. And the most troublesome of all, saying goodbye to their dear homeland which once provided them with so much love and support over the years. It`s because of their countries that they`re accepted and got the green signal from immigration officials in Canada. Many even squander their lifetime savings to pay the hefty charges of immigration agents who claim guaranteed good results for their services, thus ripping people off; but they are actually not better than mere post office boxes.

Now coming back to my journey to Canada. As I had already informed my relatives in Canada, they were there to welcome me at Toronto`s international airport. I stayed with them initially until I found a place to get started.

In Canada, to find a small apartment for yourself is not an easy task for it requires either a suitable job or personal guarantee from someone known. So if you are not blessed enough to meet these requirements, then forget the comforts of your own accommodation and you will be forced to stay with somebody (relative or a friend) or share it with someone you don`t even know by sharing the rent. If you are lucky, you can also find some apartment available to sublet from the original leaseholder, but it would be for a shorter period during which you have to find an employment to meet rental qualifications. Throw your privacy out of the window and prepare to live with another family in the same single-room accommodation. Exciting, isn`t it? Not to mention that it`s a rented unit unlike the situation in Pakistan where most people have a house and don`t have to pay a hefty rent every month. So I tried very hard but was unable to lay my hands on any suitable job. One of the reasons was that a college or university degree obtained from the Third World is not acceptable to the so-called developed countries. Also, one has to experience the fact that once you land in a foreign land, you lose your real identity. One has to literary start from scratch and only if one is lucky and happens to be at the right place at the right time, one can get a suitable job.

So I was going through really desperate times and wanted to take care of my fast vanishing savings. As a result, I started doing odd jobs like tele-marketing and a packing job at a factory and working part time at a fast food takeaway outlet. Though I was making enough to earn a living, I had begun seriously regretting the day I decided to leave the job and comfortable lifestyle in my country. With the passage of time, reality started to sink in that things were not as I had expected. I also started sharing accommodation with some bachelors passing through similar circumstances as I could ill afford to continue paying rent.

Despite the constant search, I was not able to find a reasonable job let alone a job in my area of expertise. Only odd job seemed to be the way to go about it, but it wasn`t what I had come to Canada for. The situation reminds me of a person from India who was working with me at a departmental store. He had been a finance manager in a multinational organization in India with almost 12 years of experience, but even with that qualifications he was unable to find a lower level job in Canada. After spending two years in Canada with his family, he was so hard pressed that he used to go to cheap Chinese stores to buy food items. He would fondly remember the days when in India his servant would perform all such daily chores.

The weather in Canada is usually cold and is not suitable to do outdoor work if one is not healthy enough. In winter it gets extremely cold with temperatures dropping to -30 degrees Centigrade to -40O degrees Centigrade.

The people, particularly with conservative backgrounds, face another problem. Children growing in this free society often get spoiled and parents lose control over them. This happens as children try to be a part of the Canadian society so as not to be isolated or socially alienated from the world they see around them. In the process, with the passage of time, they become more associated with Western cultural values and don`t like their parents` traditions.

It`s been two years since I first landed here and I am still looking for a proper direction to move in. I have now decided to do a course in order to get some acceptability in the job market; but the future still seems very uncertain. Countless other immigrants are also passing through the same phase, especially those with large families.

I have a sincere advice for those who are eager to fly to Canada, a country the Americans call ``frozen wasteland in the north or a parking lot`` that they should think at least 100 times before packing their bags to come here.

#56dost-mitter
dm
this dawn article paints quite a gloomy picture of life in canada, i thought canada had a decent welfare state, don`t local authority provide housing?

recently quite a few canadians have shifted to britain for work, especially teachers.

regards

stuka # 55 - perhaps your definition of ``profiling`` is different than is widely accepted. Profiling occurs when a segment of population is targeted, or held to special treatment - because of their beliefs, ethnicity etc.

mallick99

i think urstruly has correctly identified the war on terror (result of 9/11) as the main cause for concern for american muslim community. untill then, this was a happy community, mostly supportive of republicans. he has also spelt out the endgame..leave it to god to take care of things..a guaranteed success. jews after persecution formed israel, were part of a major event (WWII), where many others died as well. indians went to reservations, an unfortunate consequence of darwinism in the wild-west. blacks on the other hand, with help of others in the US (mostly the liberal jews) protested using the famous civil rights movement, and are well integrated inspite of color based bigotary.

so, what is the endgame (besides the one based on gods will)? please spell it out before its too late, and the game then is purely reactive.

Stuka

``no, Muslims were not ``profiled`` in Gujarat. The neighborhoods were attacked and they were killed.``

I think denial and little knowledge are extremely dangerous things, which makes you extraordinarily dangerous. Read the Independent commission report by Dr. Kamal Mitra Chenoy, S.P.Shukla, K.S. Subramanian and Achin Vanaik. All leading techocrats and Officials in India. Throughout the report you will find the evidence of this ``Profiling`` that you keep denying.

``But the attacks on Muslim properties and persons which started in Ahmedabad and some other urban and semi-urban areas of Gujarat on 28th February, were based on detailed information including the possession of lists. As the NHRC Interim Report points out there were “widespread reports and allegations of groups of well-organized persons, armed with mobile telephones and addresses, singling out certain homes and properties for death and destruction in certain districts…” Gujarat VHP Chairman Prof. Shastri claims that these lists were prepared only on February 28th morning. Even if this was true, it begs another question. What was the data base on which basis this list was prepared, and who prepared the basic document[s] and when? That surely could not have been prepared for tens of thousands of Muslim properties and residences just in one morning.

Earlier attempts at the preparation of such lists are a matter of public record or widely reported. On February 1st/2nd 1999, the then Director of Police [Intelligence] P.B. Upadhyaya sent a confidential circular ordering all Police Commissioners and district police officers to provide details including addresses of existing Muslim organisations, their leaders, as well as the names and addresses of Muslims participating in certain religious activities and related matters. [See Appendix 1] This circular, and a similar one pertaining to Christians, was challenged in the Gujarat High Court, and withdrawn a month later. Though this circular was withdrawn, some details about Muslim institutions and individuals along with their addresses, must have been collected in the intervening one month period.

Victims and other informants claimed that months earlier, persons claiming to represent a market survey firm visited their establishments to collect data about ownership, production, sales, number of employees, etc. They now believe that this may have been a prior attempt at ethnic mapping to identify Muslim businesses and establishments. The Gujarati language press allegedly played its part. On the basis of their experiences of earlier riots a number of Muslim entrepreneurs gave non-Muslim, mainly Hindu, names to their establishments, so that these were not readily identified as Muslim. It was claimed that some eight months earlier, Sandesh had published an article in which it listed many such establishments pointing out that despite their names these were Muslim owned. The rioters however, also attacked establishments that had Muslim ‘sleeping partners,’ a fact not widely known. It would appear therefore, that the mob leaders had access to government records from the sales tax/excise departments and the like, not normally available to the average citizen.

Another fact that appears to indicate prior planning for a communal attack according to informants is the collection of liquefied petroleum gas [LPG] gas cylinders. It is claimed that for some two weeks before February.28th, LPG cylinders were in short supply in Ahmedabad, and middle class consumers had to book them and stay in queue. But the rioters who took over Ahmedabad from February 28th were armed with thousands of LPG gas cylinders, obviously collected in advance, which they used to blow up Muslim commercial establishments and residences in the days that followed. These LPG cylinders are bulky and heavy metal cylinders that can only be transported by medium or heavy vehicles. The fact that such vehicles [including tempos and trucks], were available along with the much sought after LPG cylinders appears to indicate prior planning of some weeks, not to speak of days.

Taken together, all the available evidence including media reports, the reports of informants, eyewitnesses and others, appears to indicate a carefully planned attack over time on Muslim properties and persons throughout the State, beginning with Ahmedabad, with State connivance. The attack, it would appear, was planned well before February 27th. The ghastly events of Godhra appear to have merely provided the trigger for an anti-Muslim pogrom prepared well in advance. In that sense, the tragedy in Godhra is merely a coincidence. The premeditated and focussed attack on Gujarati Muslims was already planned, awaiting a trigger or pretext. The unexpected carnage in Godhra on February 27th unfortunately, provided that convenient trigger.``

I await your further denials.

Mantolives 53

Please dont takes this personally, but I think your post was aimless.

The Analysis in Romair`s article was never about how Bad Americans are as compared to the Good Canadians. It was merely a personal piece about personal experiances through the 9/11 period.

You have been leading what I call the Confused Liberal Mullah Bashers group here at chowk for quite a while. You write and I quote ``Good People are found everywhere``, does this in anyways apply to(In you views)the Islamists, the Mullah and the freedom fighters in Najaf. I think the problem is with your biased views of world events and not with this article at all. The problem is that the small minority of Elitist Liberals and your levels of confused righteousness has caused historically the current polarisation in Pakistan and amongst Muslims in general.

From you post it is evident that you feel that the American Actions since 9/11 are justified because of what happened then, well on that note, you might agree that the Iraqis might feel the same at what is primarily an American drive to bomb, Rape Iraq for the last two years, with a far greater loss of life than 9/11. And dont give me the balloney about the saddam hussain episode because that in view of the current event is non issue. One evil replaced by a far far bigger evil.

Feel free not to share your views, As I have already lost all interest in them, before you even touching your warrior laptop.

Rgds

W

Dear Malik99 and Urstruly,

My dear brothers ... if both of you are so unhappy and persecuted in the United States, why don`t you follow the sunnah of the Holy Prophet (SAW) and do hijrah to a country that does not persecute you. Honestly I am not saying this sarcastically... but I think both of you have enough means to move from your current abode... and since neither of you own the US as your country (it would make sense if you were criticizing the US because you were dissenting Americans), then I don`t see why both of you are still sticking it out there. I have seen Urstruly in the past condone the attacks on twin towers, so it is clear that he thinks of the US as `Darul-Harb`....

Please don`t respond with the usual answer of material difficulties and financial worries... surely that shouldn`t stand in the way you pursuing your idealism.

Sincerely

Your brother in Islam... but not in bigotry and hypocrisy

YLH

Dost-mitter,

You post on a letter from Dawn really painted a gloomy picture of Canada. Since you live here i would like to know what your views are of this beautiful country.

Each year over 200,000 people come to Canada to make it their homeland and only a small percentage goes back. This place requires hard work and if people who come to this country with the frame of mind that they will have the same luxuries that they had back home are the ones that are the first to go back. We all know how most people get good jobs back home (especially in Pakistan). Merit is hardly considered there and i guess its difficult especially for those people who are used to the ``Safarash`` culture back home. Personally i had made up my mind that i will do anything regardless of it being in my field or not. I came with the frame of mind that I`ll work hard and do whatever it takes to get pass the first few ``tough`` years. I went through the same difficulties that the writer (in Dawn) whet through but i never gave up. I now lead a comfortable life and am sure that i could not have had the same luxurious if i had spent the same amount of years in Pakistan.

I have known people who came here with little money and in 3 years did courses, found a good job/business and bought houses. I have also seen people come here with loads of money, waste a big amount on rent (because they liked to live alone) and then go back because they had to work and do house chores.

A middle class person coming from Pakistan will easily survive in Canada compared to ones that were filthy rich back home.

To do justice to Canada you have to post a success story as well as what the letter in Dawn said represents only a minority of people.

jang - indeed there is God`s will in everything. However, it does not absolve thinking people like you and me to forsake our responsibilities. Jews did not just sit around for Palestine to be handed to them. They conspired, fought and terrorized their way to occupying that land.

Dear Mantolives -

Thank you for your caring advice. I know how much you think about my well being. It brings me utter sadness that I am so far away from such a caring friend. Now please don`t advise me to leave this world too, since I find it to be so full of misery.

One way to fight hate is to flee - like what your relatives did. The other way is to stay and fight. I intend to be here and contribute my efforts to rid this country of the thugs who have hijacked it. I intend to do my part in making sure that never again an Attorney General takes office who calls christianity to be superior to other religions. I intend to make this country a better place than I found when I landed here. This is God`s land - Halliburton does not own it (yet).

If my little contributions make a difference and stop the US government in the future to bomb Lahore, I think that it would be worth it.

Regards

Wajahat # 57 - I could not have said it better. You would see the anger and venom spweing from this liberal mullah aka Mantolives about the 3000 dead on 9/11. But when it comes to the 100,000 plus iraqi innocents dead, this confused man either stays quiet, or rationalizes with pseudo-intellectual statements.

Someone (or was it me?) has correctly labeled Mantolives as the poster child of confused enslaved elite in Pakistan.

Also, your response to stuka`s confusion on exactly what constitutes ``profiling`` is right on the mark.

Good job!

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doblec:
I love Canada but do not overlook its warts. I cannot say I fully understand what this young man or you went through; I am one of the very few lucky ones who was sent an air ticket for me and my wife and a lucrative government job awaiting me when I came here, if not, I would not have had the courage to leave a decent job in India to come here.
I think that the Canadian immigration system is quite unfair in some ways both to immigrants and to Canada. People were/are selected based on their educational qualifications and professional experience by the federal government but most provincial governments and private employers do not accept those qualifications as valid in many cases. This means unemployed and underemployed doctors, for example, while communities are in crying need for their services.
On a humourous note, when I was in immigration canada and the anti-immigration sentiment in the country was at its height (early 90s) I made a sarcastic suggestion to some of my colleagues. I said that they should make a frozen igloo at -30 degree in the annex of Canada`s New Delhi High Commission and make every prospective applicant spend one hour in it to ask them if they still wanted to apply for immigration. I also seriously suggested that they should show films to prospective desi immigrants about how their wife and children would talk back to them and how getting physical with their wife could send them out of their home and inside a prison.
Canada is a wonderful country but people should be fully prepared for what they can expect once they get here.

I have most of my family in canada and I know as many people in canada as in US on a very personal basis. I believe Canadians are living in a lalaland....I wish them good luck and should enjoy it as much they can..because we know lalllands don`t stay forever. Also they can afford to do so because real bad americans are living next door otherwise as much as we know about Canadian military might, even our Romair with his brigade would be enough to conquer the lalaland and then we can ask Urstruly to make sure lalaland complies with the Godly shariah.:)

Malik99...

tsk tsk ... One really can`t have a decent conversation with your type .... you are back to your old theme of name-calling as usual. I am referring to your post 67 ofcourse. I have neither spewed venom about the 3000 deaths on 9/11 nor have I ignored Iraqi deaths... all your accusations are merely figments of your imagination. Unfortunately this is the only tactic you know, because never once on these boards have you come up with a credible evidence other than garbage with no roots in reality. If I am the poster child of the `enslaved elite` as you say... you are also a poster child... indicative of all that is wrong with the Muslim world today... you know... the filthy poverty stricken, emaciated and ignorant little scumbag carrying an AK 47 Toy gun complete with an Al-Jihad headband...

About your earlier post... your objection to Christianity being superior to all religions... is it something you have against christianity... or do you really believe that no one has the right to claim their religion superior? If you really believe that ... will you admit that the state in Pakistan has no right to place Islam over all other religions? Or is it that your fight for equality starts and ends with Christianity`s oppression and the US Constitution?

So yes the American invasion of IRAQ is wrong... and morally unjustifiable ... Now let us see you say a word or two about the extermination of black people by the Arabs in Darfur.... oh you don`t know where that is now... do you? You can wail all you want about America`s crimes... but when it comes to crimes by your own co-religionists... you are completely and totally silent... Darfur for your information is in Sudan... that great Islamic country from Africa...

Yes... like I was saying ... the American invasion is wrong ... it is wrong just like Muhammad Bin Qasim`s invasion of Sindh was wrong... Tariq`s conquest of Spain was wrong... Mahmud`s pillage and plunder was wrong... the Ottoman Empire`s conquest of Eastern Europe was wrong... Mughal conquest of India was wrong... Imperialism is Wrong... period... so I mourn the deaths of Iraqis... but will anyone mourn the deaths of those millions of people who died because of the continuous Muslim imperial conquest spanning over 10 centuries?


First get over your hypocrisy... then make grandiose claims of equality and humanity. Those who live in glass houses can`t throw stones at others

-YLH

mantolives - you wrote ``About your earlier post... your objection to Christianity being superior to all religions... is it something you have against christianity... ``

No I have nothing against christianity. My point, which seems to have escaped your attention, is this: america is a declared secular state. And if the Attorney General, the enforcer of justice in land, makes a statement that Christianity is better than Islam, then he is in violation of the law of the land. If he wants to make such a statement, then lets stop being hypocrite and declare america a Christian country. That would make his statement less disturbing.

Persoanlly, if a similar statement was made by the Attorney General of Pakistan (although it is a decalred Islamic Republic), I would be disturbed too. Islam does not give us the right to call other religions evil.

Dear Mantolives -

Your care and concern for my well being brought me to the verge of tears. If it weren`t for your hypocrisy, my tears would have actually rolled down my cheeks.

It just so happens that yours and mine struggle is not the same . While my struggle is against a thuggish government that imprisons its citizens without charges; that attacks and destroys the whole countries; that terrorizes the world with its weapons of mass destruction - your struggle is against the mullahs who barely make it to the parliament . If you want to have the same struggle as mine, I ask you to stop supporting Musharraf`s governemnt which has taken a leaf from the book of American government in terrorizing its own citizens.

My dear brother, I do agree with you on one count that extremism needs to be curtailed in pakistan - it is against the teachings of Islam. And when I say extremism needs to be curtailed, i mean people like Fazlur Rehman and you need to be locked away and forgotten.

We don`t think that people like you, who admire people like Arthur Shiraz (who routinely calls Islam `a desease`) are the right people for this struggle in Pakistan.

Please keep me in your prayers

Sincerely

Malik99

P.S: Could you please NOT post the same post in your ilog AND in the interacts. Why not just post it at one place?! It causes me the extra work to look for where else you have posted the same post and then cut and paste my response. :)

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Malik99...

I am very sorry to learn of your desperate condition i.e. you are a pathological liar. Sadly your continuous need to lie about me is a more serious condition. The post you are responding to isn`t even on this board... but thats alright. You can call me a hypocrite all you want... but I am afraid the only hypocrite here is you... and I think your last 10 posts are aptly indicative of it.

You are right that our struggle is not the same... I said it sarcastically but you are not very bright are you... In your world... just like Ashcroft... the best way to deal with `dissent` is to ``lock up and forget``.... ... this is your world... you are basically a Closet Bushist

My struggle is legal and democratic... as long as Mullah Fazlurrahman or you for that matter don`t do anything violent or illegal... I don`t support your detention or Fazlu`s for that matter... my attempt is not to exterminate physically the mullahs or put them in jails but rather to defeat them with force of reason... and given your desperate and lame comebacks... one can see that you have nothing to offer...

Now go back to making a fool of yourself...

-YLH

PS: Just because you said so... I am also putting this up in ilog...

Malik99 and Urstruly -

Allow me to chime in here. Actually the points that you two are arguing with Mantolives, he has already agreed to on previous boards

- he is on record for agreeing to setting up a system of government as advocated by Jamaat -e-Islami. It is true that when he agreed to that solution, he did not know that it was Jamaat-e-Islami solution. He later reversed his position upon finding out the JI link. But the fact that he did agree to JI`s position clearly shows that if Mantolives were to get rid of his baseless bias and hatred, he is on the platform as JI. It also shows how confused Mantolives is about his own convictions

- he is also on the record for FINALLY blurting out that mullahs are not the real culprits in Pakistan - they are merely the ``allies`` of the culprits. This is a significant change since up until now he has been harping day and night about how Mullahs have single-handedly ruined Pakistan.

Peace

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vereesh #28: ``Will Romair or anyone else here please bring the shairi into English, please? Grateful indeed``

Too difficult and time-consuming to translate. You will have to learn Urdu......I thought everyone in Delhi understood Urdu or Hindi.....

satish #29: ````Mujh tak kab unki bazm me aata tha daur-e-jaam
Saqi ne kuchh mila na diya ho sharaab me``

phir dekhiye andaaz-e-gul_afshaanii-e-guftaar....
rakh de ko_ii paimaanaa-e-sahabaa mere aage

nazarhayatkhan #30: ``No matter what you say, you will always miss Margalla, dust, noise, chaos, mamoons, uncles, servants, world of your youth.....
However, your children will be proper Canadians. Actually you are sacrificing your life for your children.``

Yes, you are correct. Margalla and Pakistan is my identity. It is always good to have an identity, so that one does not remain in a state of confusion. Everyone will always view me as a Pakistani, regardless of where I go............

Our children will be Canadian Muslims. Assuming we stay here, we have decided to raise them as 100% Canadians. Not Pakistani-Canadians or Canadian-Pakistanis. There identity will be Canada. So when Pakistan plays Canada in the cricket world cup, I might be cheering for Pakistan, and they will be cheering for Canada. They definitely will have it much easier than I have had it. But, I think their vision of the world will be quite a bit more limited than mine. They will have only lived in Toronto. Not in Toronto and Mianwali and Badin.

dost-mittar #32: ``Vo aayen hamare kaneda mein khuda ki kudrat hai
Kabhi hum unko kabhi apne kaneda ko dekhate hain! ``

aap say mil kar hum kuch badal say gayee
shair parhaney lagay; gungunay lagay
pehley mash-hoor thee apni sanjeedagi
abb to jub daikheyaay, muskoranay lagay

aslam644: ``Could it be you are in love with Canada because of it’s similarities with Kashmir. Lakes, pine forests, frozen wastelands,mountains``

Actually, I have never lived in Kashmir. Used to visit it regularly. I have driven or flown through much or its (and Northern areas) beautiful parts, from Chitral to Rawalakot to Muzzafarabad. The truly beautiful part of Canada is on the West coast, along Vancouver and Victoria etc. Vancouver is simply breathtaking. It is like a postcard. As are the roads between Rawalakot and Muzzafarabad. For those who have not visited Kashmir, there are some rest houses along these roads, that are the most beautiful I have ever seen in my life. As is the view from the Simon Fraser campus and Grouse Mountain in Vancouver....

Atif2...

Ah... yaar where does your Islam run off to ... everytime the simple requirement of truth or Haq comes up...

Since you claim that I am on the record agreeing with Jamaat-e-Islami... I challenge you to show us exactly where I agreed to JI... I said that if Jamaat-e-Islami believes in a `non-theocratic, Liberal, democratic Islamic state`... then I agree.. but clearly they don`t. As for Mullahs not being real culprits... again this is your imagination. I said that corrupt and hedonistic elite of the country is allied to the Mullahs who are the real culprits.

I still hold on to both beliefs... I still believe that if Jamaat-e-Islami is willing to work for a `non-theocratic liberal democratic Islamic state` but it has to be all of that and nothing less ... I will welcome them, and I have always believed that Pakistan`s decadent elite is too selfish ... and so they are allied with the real culprits..


Here is the thread where I supposedly have agreed with what you say I have agreed with...
now if you have even an ounce of self respect in your body... you will show us where I said what I said...

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003740&channel=gulberg&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1


But you can`t.... and that is precisely why I think you and your hypocrite buddies here are a bunch of liars...

Now go and learn the essence of Islam i.e. ``HAQ` or `TRUTH`... ah but you didn`t really learn that lesson in your Madrassah did you ... you little twit...

-YLH

Manto - Two things.

One, there was a huge PHADDA on chowk a few weeks ago where you posted some 20 threads using swear words for escapist and myself. That whole phadda was because you were baited into agreeing with JI solution. I don`t need to go and spend time looking for all the threads and interacts. Everyone on chowk remembers what you said.

Two, why is it that every conversation with you ends being about mullah bashing and Jinnah??? I mean this is an article about a man`s journey from America to Canada. We were all discussing that. But as soon as you jumped into the discussion, suddenly we find ourselves talking about mullahs in Pakistan and Jinnah !!!!!

Is it because a) you are morbidly possessed and obssessed by mullahs? or b) mullah bashing and jinnah are the only topics you know something about (as opposed to other interactors who talk about various topics from science, technology, culture, travelogues etc) and thats why you keep turning every discussion into that same direction???

It should never ever be forgotten that It was Maulana Maudoodi himself who was invited by Allama Iqbal to set up a Islami-model (experimental) township. He asked him to leave Hyderabad Dakkan and move to Pathankote. This was done as planned, land acquired and instituitons established and continued till the partition upheaval.

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[To snuff out any ambiguity here and to quelch any word-corruption so as to justify WESTERNISM--never ever utter the word `secularism` Such attention somehow lends it some credence: always but always call it WESTERNISM--an alien concept, an enemy-alien concept; like cannibalism ]

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Q. Concerning the fact, that Iqbal and Quaid-e-Azam were against theocracy, it is said, that using all means, you intend to lead Pakistan to theocracy?

It is a fact and the same has been clearly expressed by Allama Muhammad Iqbal and Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, that Islam is not theocracy. Taking advantage of such statements (of the founders), some people try to impress that we held different opinion from them. In fact, these people forget that where Allama Iqbal discussed this subject, is the sixth speech of his ‘Khutbat’. The sense in which he expressed it in the speech is, that, ``To say, that by way of a principle the process of ‘tauhid’ (unity) is the base of freedom, equal