The Mystery of South India
Nazar Khan August 4, 2004
#116 Posted by soysauce on August 8, 2004 11:11:29 am
The Human Biology paper that harimau quotes is widely circulated among iyer mailing lists (yes there are such things!) posted on iyer web sites and cited in the dalistan.org website. The interest of the two sides are widely divergent and political nonetheless. For one side, it`s a matter of claiming that the brahmins came from the outside and for the other it`s a matter of claiming some european connection.
Any migration theory becomes immediately politicised. DNA analysis has to be approached with some skepticism. The appropriate sample size, the integrity of sample handling, and the statistical analysis of the data are all important. Unfortunately, this being an emerging field, there is no standard protocol and the conclusions are speculative.
I like the Gadgil essay because it tends to be comprehensive and Cavalli-Sforza whom they collaborated with is a giant in genetic anthropology with no obvious axe to grind. Ultimately, it`s a matter of academic curiosity. Tying politics to it to serve anyone`s agenda is unproductive and destructive. AIT or no AIT, india`s survival and progress as a nation state depends on the present realities. It`s hitlerian to be obsessed with genetic origins or differences.
Any migration theory becomes immediately politicised. DNA analysis has to be approached with some skepticism. The appropriate sample size, the integrity of sample handling, and the statistical analysis of the data are all important. Unfortunately, this being an emerging field, there is no standard protocol and the conclusions are speculative.
I like the Gadgil essay because it tends to be comprehensive and Cavalli-Sforza whom they collaborated with is a giant in genetic anthropology with no obvious axe to grind. Ultimately, it`s a matter of academic curiosity. Tying politics to it to serve anyone`s agenda is unproductive and destructive. AIT or no AIT, india`s survival and progress as a nation state depends on the present realities. It`s hitlerian to be obsessed with genetic origins or differences.
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#115 Posted by soysauce on August 8, 2004 9:28:12 am
#106 Farzana
I meant writing that you, as in soysauce, cannot understand - I do not assume any one interactor to be the standard reader.
&
Most interactors do not understand what the two of you talk about, though one has an idea that it is parochial.
I see, you do however speak for most interactors.
I brought up Hawking because that`s where `I said something.` You asked me why I didn`t.
At any rate, you keep repeating this:
Just in case you did not notice, I mentioned both of you. Most interactors do not understand what the two of you talk about, though one has an idea that it is parochial.
What parochial comments have I made? This is the blurring of the line I mentioned. harimau makes comments that only he understands based on certain stereotypes of other castes, religions and nationalities, and he does follow me around like a loyal but slightly deranged canine. But that makes me part of his hallucinations. How? I am surprised that a writer thinks talking to oneself has to be literal so no one else can have access to it in a written medium...
I meant writing that you, as in soysauce, cannot understand - I do not assume any one interactor to be the standard reader.
&
Most interactors do not understand what the two of you talk about, though one has an idea that it is parochial.
I see, you do however speak for most interactors.
I brought up Hawking because that`s where `I said something.` You asked me why I didn`t.
At any rate, you keep repeating this:
Just in case you did not notice, I mentioned both of you. Most interactors do not understand what the two of you talk about, though one has an idea that it is parochial.
What parochial comments have I made? This is the blurring of the line I mentioned. harimau makes comments that only he understands based on certain stereotypes of other castes, religions and nationalities, and he does follow me around like a loyal but slightly deranged canine. But that makes me part of his hallucinations. How? I am surprised that a writer thinks talking to oneself has to be literal so no one else can have access to it in a written medium...
#114 Posted by dost_mittar on August 8, 2004 8:44:45 am
harimou#117-113:
Wow! You didn`t disappoint.
`` Hence the Aryan Invasion Theory could be trusted to have been formulated based on available evidence alone.``
Are you implying that this means QED?
I am quite agnostic about the two competing hypotheses. I think that it is a good thing that you have two opposing viewpoints battling it out; the amrit of truth should come out of this churning process, even though neither side is interesting in finding the truth per se.
But according to your prescription that when there is no documented history one should depend upon tribal memory, AIT doesn`t seem to have an edge.
Wow! You didn`t disappoint.
`` Hence the Aryan Invasion Theory could be trusted to have been formulated based on available evidence alone.``
Are you implying that this means QED?
I am quite agnostic about the two competing hypotheses. I think that it is a good thing that you have two opposing viewpoints battling it out; the amrit of truth should come out of this churning process, even though neither side is interesting in finding the truth per se.
But according to your prescription that when there is no documented history one should depend upon tribal memory, AIT doesn`t seem to have an edge.
#113 Posted by harimau on August 8, 2004 7:51:40 am
Ref Sudalaikkannu #80
[....It is said two thousand jain monks were killed by being made to sit on sharp spikes, a particularly cruel form of execution that the ``peaceful`` south indians seem to have invented.]
The typical boast without any foundation. Vlad the Impaler aka Vlad Drakul used to impale his enemies as did Ivan the Terrible. Unless you want to make the claim that the practice was exported from South India.
Perhaps you should take credit for `sati`. After all, the wives of Tamil kings killed in battle did burn themselves on the funeral pyre of their husband in a practice known as `udankattai aeruthal` (climbing the pyre together).
[Marriage customs: marrying nieces or first cousins is still common. The groom is related to the bride on her mother`s side not father`s perhaps because of a belief in greated ``genetic`` distance on the mother`s side.]
So, is your wife your cousin or your niece? Or did you find someone else who offered a bigger dowry?
[....It is said two thousand jain monks were killed by being made to sit on sharp spikes, a particularly cruel form of execution that the ``peaceful`` south indians seem to have invented.]
The typical boast without any foundation. Vlad the Impaler aka Vlad Drakul used to impale his enemies as did Ivan the Terrible. Unless you want to make the claim that the practice was exported from South India.
Perhaps you should take credit for `sati`. After all, the wives of Tamil kings killed in battle did burn themselves on the funeral pyre of their husband in a practice known as `udankattai aeruthal` (climbing the pyre together).
[Marriage customs: marrying nieces or first cousins is still common. The groom is related to the bride on her mother`s side not father`s perhaps because of a belief in greated ``genetic`` distance on the mother`s side.]
So, is your wife your cousin or your niece? Or did you find someone else who offered a bigger dowry?
#112 Posted by harimau on August 8, 2004 7:51:40 am
Nazar Hayat Khan,
If one doesn`t read the detailed history of South India, it is easy to assume that the South did not fall under Muslim dominance. The truth is to the contrary.
The Vijayanagara empire you mention fell to the Bahmani sultans. The Bahmani sultanate was founded by a general of Muhammad bin Tughlaq`s army and thus pre-dates the Moghul Empire in India by a couple of centuries.
Aurangzeb conquered the Deccan and appointed a Moghul governor to govern the South. As is typical of the situation (``Dilli dur ast``), the Moghul governor declared his independence after a while and stopped paying tribute and styled himself the Nizam. The Nizam`s dominion extended all the way to the northern half of Tamil Nadu leaving perhaps the last 200 miles to Hindu kings and chieftains.
The Nizam appointed his own governors and faujdars throughout South India. After a while, these persons stopped paying tribute to the enfeebled Nizams and called themselves full-fledged sultans and nawabs. The history of the Anglo-French war in India has a proxy war on behalf of rival claimants to the thrones of Arcot and Hyderabad woven though it.
Hyder Ali, a general in the Hindu king`s army, overthrew the king and took over the kingdom of Mysore. He and later his son Tipu ruled Mysore and Northern Kerala till they were overthrown by the British and the kingdom of Mysore was restored to the Hindu prince.
The rate of conversion of Hindus to Islam was not as rapid as in North India and thus South India has a smaller Muslim population. That doesn`t mean that the Muslim rulers were more benevolent or more tolerant. For example, when the Vijayanagara Empire fell, every man, woman and child in the capital city was put to death. It is just that there were too many sultanates, too many rivals to be fought off to take care of the kaffirs the way they were taken care of in North India. But you do see the concentration of Muslims and the predominance of Urdu in the capital cities of various sultanates. You also see Islamic architecture in the Char Minar in Hyderabad, the Gol Gumbaz in Bijapur, etc. What you also see is the thousands of temple, large and small, that could not be destroyed by the sultans and nawabs.
If one doesn`t read the detailed history of South India, it is easy to assume that the South did not fall under Muslim dominance. The truth is to the contrary.
The Vijayanagara empire you mention fell to the Bahmani sultans. The Bahmani sultanate was founded by a general of Muhammad bin Tughlaq`s army and thus pre-dates the Moghul Empire in India by a couple of centuries.
Aurangzeb conquered the Deccan and appointed a Moghul governor to govern the South. As is typical of the situation (``Dilli dur ast``), the Moghul governor declared his independence after a while and stopped paying tribute and styled himself the Nizam. The Nizam`s dominion extended all the way to the northern half of Tamil Nadu leaving perhaps the last 200 miles to Hindu kings and chieftains.
The Nizam appointed his own governors and faujdars throughout South India. After a while, these persons stopped paying tribute to the enfeebled Nizams and called themselves full-fledged sultans and nawabs. The history of the Anglo-French war in India has a proxy war on behalf of rival claimants to the thrones of Arcot and Hyderabad woven though it.
Hyder Ali, a general in the Hindu king`s army, overthrew the king and took over the kingdom of Mysore. He and later his son Tipu ruled Mysore and Northern Kerala till they were overthrown by the British and the kingdom of Mysore was restored to the Hindu prince.
The rate of conversion of Hindus to Islam was not as rapid as in North India and thus South India has a smaller Muslim population. That doesn`t mean that the Muslim rulers were more benevolent or more tolerant. For example, when the Vijayanagara Empire fell, every man, woman and child in the capital city was put to death. It is just that there were too many sultanates, too many rivals to be fought off to take care of the kaffirs the way they were taken care of in North India. But you do see the concentration of Muslims and the predominance of Urdu in the capital cities of various sultanates. You also see Islamic architecture in the Char Minar in Hyderabad, the Gol Gumbaz in Bijapur, etc. What you also see is the thousands of temple, large and small, that could not be destroyed by the sultans and nawabs.
#111 Posted by harimau on August 8, 2004 7:51:39 am
Ref echoboom #5
[The very first masjid and the first muslim of India. within 10 years of Hijraa! Amazing.]
Yes, you guys do get the first prize for the fastest propagation of religion. And no matter what your textbooks say, enlightenment did not arrive in South Asia with Mohammad bin Qasim.
Christianity arrived in Kerala in 52 AD with the arrival of the apostle St. Thomas. There was a BBC documentary tracing the path of St. Thomas from Kerala to Madras/Chennai where he is supposedly buried at the top of a hill named St. Thomas Mount.
Jews landed near Cochin in 279 AD. Jew Town still exists though the Jews have departed for Israel. It is now the spice trading market of Cochin. The synagogue there is lovingly preserved and was featured on a postage stamp on its 400th anniversary. The estimated Indo-Israeli population is 60,000, primarily descendants of the much larger Bene Israel community of Gujarat and Maharashtra.
Amazing faxts about India would fill several books.
[The very first masjid and the first muslim of India. within 10 years of Hijraa! Amazing.]
Yes, you guys do get the first prize for the fastest propagation of religion. And no matter what your textbooks say, enlightenment did not arrive in South Asia with Mohammad bin Qasim.
Christianity arrived in Kerala in 52 AD with the arrival of the apostle St. Thomas. There was a BBC documentary tracing the path of St. Thomas from Kerala to Madras/Chennai where he is supposedly buried at the top of a hill named St. Thomas Mount.
Jews landed near Cochin in 279 AD. Jew Town still exists though the Jews have departed for Israel. It is now the spice trading market of Cochin. The synagogue there is lovingly preserved and was featured on a postage stamp on its 400th anniversary. The estimated Indo-Israeli population is 60,000, primarily descendants of the much larger Bene Israel community of Gujarat and Maharashtra.
Amazing faxts about India would fill several books.
#110 Posted by harimau on August 8, 2004 7:51:39 am
Ref avkrishna #13
[```` About 700 to 1000 years or earlier back people from north india (brahmins) migrated to the south and integrated there into the culture. these are the present day Iyers and Iyengars (tamil brahmins mostly) who despite being a miniscule minority in their home state are prominent in the scientific and academic world (and the business world as well). ````
This looks like one more theory which fits into the Aryan invasion theory and Aryans being superior to Dravidians.. Even DMK founders had a similar theory..]
In the absence of written history, one has to make do with tribal memories.
The Iyer community in Tamil Nadu has several sub-groups which for a very long time have avoided intermarriage and stayed as endogamous groups. One of them is named ``Vada desa Vadama`` which translates to ``Northerners of the North Country`` to distinguish them from ``Chola desa Vadama`` meaning Northerners of the Chola Country. One would have to guess that the former are comparatively more recent immigrants than the latter.
Rahul Dravid (the cricketer) is an example of reverse migration. Some of the Maharashtrian brahmin immigrants returned home after a couple of generations and were forever surnamed ``Dravid`` in memory of their sojourn in South India.
The Sanketi brahmins of Mysore claim to be descendants of Tamil brahmins who migrated to Mysore from Senkottai in the Tamil Nadu/Kerala border.
As to the DMK, its predecessor movement was founded by Reddiars, Naidus, Chettiars (Telugu speaking) and (Naickers (Kannada speaking). The monumental stupidity of Masanamuthu aka Soysauce and his compatriots can be seen in the fact that they believe these people to be of Tamil origin.
No wonder the esteem in which South Indians were held as intelligent people has been going down!
[```` About 700 to 1000 years or earlier back people from north india (brahmins) migrated to the south and integrated there into the culture. these are the present day Iyers and Iyengars (tamil brahmins mostly) who despite being a miniscule minority in their home state are prominent in the scientific and academic world (and the business world as well). ````
This looks like one more theory which fits into the Aryan invasion theory and Aryans being superior to Dravidians.. Even DMK founders had a similar theory..]
In the absence of written history, one has to make do with tribal memories.
The Iyer community in Tamil Nadu has several sub-groups which for a very long time have avoided intermarriage and stayed as endogamous groups. One of them is named ``Vada desa Vadama`` which translates to ``Northerners of the North Country`` to distinguish them from ``Chola desa Vadama`` meaning Northerners of the Chola Country. One would have to guess that the former are comparatively more recent immigrants than the latter.
Rahul Dravid (the cricketer) is an example of reverse migration. Some of the Maharashtrian brahmin immigrants returned home after a couple of generations and were forever surnamed ``Dravid`` in memory of their sojourn in South India.
The Sanketi brahmins of Mysore claim to be descendants of Tamil brahmins who migrated to Mysore from Senkottai in the Tamil Nadu/Kerala border.
As to the DMK, its predecessor movement was founded by Reddiars, Naidus, Chettiars (Telugu speaking) and (Naickers (Kannada speaking). The monumental stupidity of Masanamuthu aka Soysauce and his compatriots can be seen in the fact that they believe these people to be of Tamil origin.
No wonder the esteem in which South Indians were held as intelligent people has been going down!
#109 Posted by harimau on August 8, 2004 7:51:38 am
Ref echoboom #21
[Iam also interested to know about the scripts of ``south-India`` . What is their origins, how they evolved and how are they linked to other languages nearby.]
Telugu and Kannada scripts are descended from the Brahmi script used during King Asoka`s time.
The Tamil language used to be written in a variety of scripts including one known as `Grantha`. Most inscriptions you see in temples are written in this script and cannot be read by today`s Tamilians unless they are trained to read the script. The modern Tamil script was created by the Italian missionary Constantine Beschi and is about 250 years old.
[Iam also interested to know about the scripts of ``south-India`` . What is their origins, how they evolved and how are they linked to other languages nearby.]
Telugu and Kannada scripts are descended from the Brahmi script used during King Asoka`s time.
The Tamil language used to be written in a variety of scripts including one known as `Grantha`. Most inscriptions you see in temples are written in this script and cannot be read by today`s Tamilians unless they are trained to read the script. The modern Tamil script was created by the Italian missionary Constantine Beschi and is about 250 years old.
#108 Posted by harimau on August 8, 2004 4:00:59 am
Ref nazarhayatkhan #101
[Property descending through matrilineal line - is some thing & quite unusual for these parts of world. I did not know this.]
I believe several of the so-called primitive tribes in the world practice matrilineal inhertitance. This of course clashes with the dominant patrilineal culture which is winning out by sheer force of numbers. The rush to conform is spurred by increased and faster communication and interaction with the rest of the world.
The last 40 years of working in the Persian Gulf sheikhdoms has produced another, in my opinion unwelcome, change in Kerala society. You now see Muslim schoolgirls wearing the hijab, a sight that was absolutely not to be seen 30 years back.
[Since Sanskrit is not the base of the languages of the South, is there any historical explanation to their different origin? Or they originally originated in South India?]
Linguistic scholars have classified all of the world`s languages into just two major categories: the Indo-Aryan and the Dravidian. The German scholar Max Muller was among the first to notice the similarity between Sanskrit and Latin and theorized that Sanskrit or a much earlier version of it is the head of the Indo-Aryan family of languages. The only other group is the Dravidian language group which consists of the 4 main languages and several dialects of South India. Curiously enough, Brahui spoken in Baluchistan is classified as a Dravidian language, indirectly lending credence to the Aryan Invasion Theory whereby the invading Aryan tribes displaced the Dravidians who were the supposed founders of the Indus Valley Civilization. Some dialects spoken by tribes in Northern and Eastern India have also been classified as Dravidian, strengthening the theory that the invading Aryans scattered the original inhabitants of Indus Valley, though the primary emigration was into the Deccan plateau and farther south.
Even more curious is the classification of such diverse languages as Finno-Ugric and Uralic-Altaic and even Chinese and Japanese as Dravidian languages. This is based more on linguistic similarities rather than racial/ethnic similarities.
[While Sanskrit is the base of all other Indo-Aryan languages spanning the continents - does this dichotomy give credence to AIT even if there is no other physical evidence available?]
I guess I have pretty much answered the question with my explanations above.
The endogamous caste system has tended to isolate markers in genes within population groups. A study by Madurai Kamaraj University some years back identified certain markers unique to them. Here is the abstract of the paper:
[Seventy-four randomly sampled Iyers, a Brahmin population of Tamil Nadu and preachers and followers of the Advaita philosophy, living in Madurai, were studied for their HLA-A, HLA-B, HLA-C, HLA-DR, HLA-DQ, C4A, C4B, and BF polymorphisms and compared with other populations. HLA alleles A1, A11.1, A24, A33, B35, B44, B51, B52, B57, Cw4, Cw6, Cw7, DR4, DR7, DR8, DR10, DR11, DR15, and DQ1 and C4A*3, C4A*4, C4A*6, C4A*Q0, C4B*1, and BF*S were represented in 15% of the samples studied. HLA alleles A25, A69, Cw3, Cw8, B45, B14, B39, B18, B50, and B56 were not identified. Various populations of Tamil Nadu were compared, but the Iyers of Madurai formed a separate cluster with Sourashtrans of Madurai and major group 4 (various Brahmin populations of Tamil Nadu); hill tribes (Irulas, Malayalis, and Badagas) and caste groups in the plains (Kallars and Nadars) formed distinct clusters. Comparison of the Iyers with other Indian and world populations revealed that Iyers form a distinct branch of the Indo-European and Central Asian tree. The Bhargavas of Lucknow, another Brahmin caste group from Uttar Pradesh, did not cluster with the Iyers but clustered with Central Asian populations. The Punjabis of Delhi clustered with European and Middle Eastern populations. Studies on two-locus haplotypes of Iyers revealed unique haplotypes in them (A26-B8, A33-B44, A33-Cw7, A1-B57, B8-DR3, B44-DR7, DR7-DQ2, C4A*32-C4B*Q0, and C4A*6-C4B*2), most of which were not identified in the Bhargavas of Lucknow and the Punjabis of Delhi. Thus it is possible that various Brahmin populations of India differ in their origin, migration, and settlement, although all of them adopted Hinduism in ancient times. A comparison of haplotypes in Iyers with the world population reveals a sharing of haplotypes with Southeast Asian populations. This implies that the ancestors of the Iyers of Madurai, who originated in the Eurasian steppes or Central Asia, might have migrated to India through Southeast Asia, thus developing the prevalent haplotypes en route.
TITLE: HLA affinities of Iyers, a Brahmin population of Tamil Nadu, South India.
AUTHORS:
Balakrishnan, K., Pitchappan, R. M., Suzuki, K., Kumar, U. S., Santhakumari, R. and Tokunaga, K.
INSTITUTION
Unit of Immunogenetics, School of Biological Sciences, Madurai Kamaraj University, Madurai, India.
SOURCE
Human Biology. 68 (4) pp. 523-37, August, 1996.]
So you can draw your own conclusion about the Aryan Invasion Theory. In today`s political climate, the AIT has become a political football with the BJP claiming that Aryans are native to India and the Congess and their followers claiming that Muslim invaders of India are no less Indian than the Aryan invaders. Thus do not expect scholarship in modern studies of the Indus Valley Civilization, the Rig Veda, linguistics of proto-Sanskrit, etc.
I am almost tempted to agree with hamidm2 that the currently much-hated white man at least didn`t care to contend with opposing political viewpoints, not that there was much of a political ferment in India in the second half of the 19th century. Hence the Aryan Invasion Theory could be trusted to have been formulated based on available evidence alone.
[Property descending through matrilineal line - is some thing & quite unusual for these parts of world. I did not know this.]
I believe several of the so-called primitive tribes in the world practice matrilineal inhertitance. This of course clashes with the dominant patrilineal culture which is winning out by sheer force of numbers. The rush to conform is spurred by increased and faster communication and interaction with the rest of the world.
The last 40 years of working in the Persian Gulf sheikhdoms has produced another, in my opinion unwelcome, change in Kerala society. You now see Muslim schoolgirls wearing the hijab, a sight that was absolutely not to be seen 30 years back.
[Since Sanskrit is not the base of the languages of the South, is there any historical explanation to their different origin? Or they originally originated in South India?]
Linguistic scholars have classified all of the world`s languages into just two major categories: the Indo-Aryan and the Dravidian. The German scholar Max Muller was among the first to notice the similarity between Sanskrit and Latin and theorized that Sanskrit or a much earlier version of it is the head of the Indo-Aryan family of languages. The only other group is the Dravidian language group which consists of the 4 main languages and several dialects of South India. Curiously enough, Brahui spoken in Baluchistan is classified as a Dravidian language, indirectly lending credence to the Aryan Invasion Theory whereby the invading Aryan tribes displaced the Dravidians who were the supposed founders of the Indus Valley Civilization. Some dialects spoken by tribes in Northern and Eastern India have also been classified as Dravidian, strengthening the theory that the invading Aryans scattered the original inhabitants of Indus Valley, though the primary emigration was into the Deccan plateau and farther south.
Even more curious is the classification of such diverse languages as Finno-Ugric and Uralic-Altaic and even Chinese and Japanese as Dravidian languages. This is based more on linguistic similarities rather than racial/ethnic similarities.
[While Sanskrit is the base of all other Indo-Aryan languages spanning the continents - does this dichotomy give credence to AIT even if there is no other physical evidence available?]
I guess I have pretty much answered the question with my explanations above.
The endogamous caste system has tended to isolate markers in genes within population groups. A study by Madurai Kamaraj University some years back identified certain markers unique to them. Here is the abstract of the paper:
[Seventy-four randomly sampled Iyers, a Brahmin population of Tamil Nadu and preachers and followers of the Advaita philosophy, living in Madurai, were studied for their HLA-A, HLA-B, HLA-C, HLA-DR, HLA-DQ, C4A, C4B, and BF polymorphisms and compared with other populations. HLA alleles A1, A11.1, A24, A33, B35, B44, B51, B52, B57, Cw4, Cw6, Cw7, DR4, DR7, DR8, DR10, DR11, DR15, and DQ1 and C4A*3, C4A*4, C4A*6, C4A*Q0, C4B*1, and BF*S were represented in 15% of the samples studied. HLA alleles A25, A69, Cw3, Cw8, B45, B14, B39, B18, B50, and B56 were not identified. Various populations of Tamil Nadu were compared, but the Iyers of Madurai formed a separate cluster with Sourashtrans of Madurai and major group 4 (various Brahmin populations of Tamil Nadu); hill tribes (Irulas, Malayalis, and Badagas) and caste groups in the plains (Kallars and Nadars) formed distinct clusters. Comparison of the Iyers with other Indian and world populations revealed that Iyers form a distinct branch of the Indo-European and Central Asian tree. The Bhargavas of Lucknow, another Brahmin caste group from Uttar Pradesh, did not cluster with the Iyers but clustered with Central Asian populations. The Punjabis of Delhi clustered with European and Middle Eastern populations. Studies on two-locus haplotypes of Iyers revealed unique haplotypes in them (A26-B8, A33-B44, A33-Cw7, A1-B57, B8-DR3, B44-DR7, DR7-DQ2, C4A*32-C4B*Q0, and C4A*6-C4B*2), most of which were not identified in the Bhargavas of Lucknow and the Punjabis of Delhi. Thus it is possible that various Brahmin populations of India differ in their origin, migration, and settlement, although all of them adopted Hinduism in ancient times. A comparison of haplotypes in Iyers with the world population reveals a sharing of haplotypes with Southeast Asian populations. This implies that the ancestors of the Iyers of Madurai, who originated in the Eurasian steppes or Central Asia, might have migrated to India through Southeast Asia, thus developing the prevalent haplotypes en route.
TITLE: HLA affinities of Iyers, a Brahmin population of Tamil Nadu, South India.
AUTHORS:
Balakrishnan, K., Pitchappan, R. M., Suzuki, K., Kumar, U. S., Santhakumari, R. and Tokunaga, K.
INSTITUTION
Unit of Immunogenetics, School of Biological Sciences, Madurai Kamaraj University, Madurai, India.
SOURCE
Human Biology. 68 (4) pp. 523-37, August, 1996.]
So you can draw your own conclusion about the Aryan Invasion Theory. In today`s political climate, the AIT has become a political football with the BJP claiming that Aryans are native to India and the Congess and their followers claiming that Muslim invaders of India are no less Indian than the Aryan invaders. Thus do not expect scholarship in modern studies of the Indus Valley Civilization, the Rig Veda, linguistics of proto-Sanskrit, etc.
I am almost tempted to agree with hamidm2 that the currently much-hated white man at least didn`t care to contend with opposing political viewpoints, not that there was much of a political ferment in India in the second half of the 19th century. Hence the Aryan Invasion Theory could be trusted to have been formulated based on available evidence alone.
#107 Posted by harimau on August 8, 2004 2:46:14 am
Ref warpster #104
[so lets compile a list of south indians in chowk.....]
How can you forget Brother Jay?
[so lets compile a list of south indians in chowk.....]
How can you forget Brother Jay?
#106 Posted by FarzanaVersey on August 8, 2004 1:00:13 am
#94 by soysauce:
Rather strange that you should dig out Hawking now...
[`Btw, imprecise writing (which means writing that you cannot understand) is not to be confused with yellow journalism.`
Imprecise means being vague not inscrutable. Yours is certainly a new definition.
Yellow journalism is characterized by vague accusations, idle speculations, and prurient interst. There`s vaguenss there all right.]
I meant writing that you, as in soysauce, cannot understand - I do not assume any one interactor to be the standard reader.
[`My last two pieces were pretty simple to understand, but for your sake I will try to add footnotes.`
No, please carry on. I simply don`t read such articles. Tabloids don`t provide footnotes AFAIK.]
And without reading them you pronounce judgement? Tabloids may not provide footnotes...academic treatises do -- that does not absolve them from idle speculation.
[`Yup, hope I can recover too...from the damning realisation that people cannot take a simple joke.`
How was that a joke? If someone said Farzana & her detractors are blahblah constantly exchanging insults on patriotism blahblah, would you consider that a joke? I know for a fact that such exchanges are onesided. Blurring that line is not a joke unless its a particular brand of humor I don`t understand.]
Just in case you did not notice, I mentioned both of you. Most interactors do not understand what the two of you talk about, though one has an idea that it is parochial. Therefore, this was all I stated when people were commenting about SI being a mystery, and this segment was only part of the post which was on the subject being discussed: ``Those who think South India is a mystery have obviously not read the exchanges between soysauce and harimau. Forget mystery, here is a garbled mess within a parochial enigma caught in the dark ages of a Periyar conspiracy!``
There was absolutely no intent to offend, but the manner in which you have tried to get back at me is very disappointing, to say the least.
[I`m probably going to regret this]
Just forget about it...and since I started that post, I am ending this matter. Should you wish to say anything or have the last word, I am afraid I will not be responding on this subject here. It is rather awkward for me to hog another board to discuss such things.
Best wishes...
- - -
harimau:
Thanks! I do not recall the brand name, but it does have the image of Goddess Lakshmi, I think, on it. Also, it comes in a `roll-on` bottle and the fragrance is truly like fresh jasmine and not an essence. Rather than an emporium it would be found in some corner store. (The person who gifted it to me was an elderly clerk, so I doubt he would frequent emporia.) If you do manage to get to it, pick up loads of the stuff to take back to the US -- it will work as a better bait than absinthe :)
My email addy is farzanavee@chowk.com...for whenever...
Rather strange that you should dig out Hawking now...
[`Btw, imprecise writing (which means writing that you cannot understand) is not to be confused with yellow journalism.`
Imprecise means being vague not inscrutable. Yours is certainly a new definition.
Yellow journalism is characterized by vague accusations, idle speculations, and prurient interst. There`s vaguenss there all right.]
I meant writing that you, as in soysauce, cannot understand - I do not assume any one interactor to be the standard reader.
[`My last two pieces were pretty simple to understand, but for your sake I will try to add footnotes.`
No, please carry on. I simply don`t read such articles. Tabloids don`t provide footnotes AFAIK.]
And without reading them you pronounce judgement? Tabloids may not provide footnotes...academic treatises do -- that does not absolve them from idle speculation.
[`Yup, hope I can recover too...from the damning realisation that people cannot take a simple joke.`
How was that a joke? If someone said Farzana & her detractors are blahblah constantly exchanging insults on patriotism blahblah, would you consider that a joke? I know for a fact that such exchanges are onesided. Blurring that line is not a joke unless its a particular brand of humor I don`t understand.]
Just in case you did not notice, I mentioned both of you. Most interactors do not understand what the two of you talk about, though one has an idea that it is parochial. Therefore, this was all I stated when people were commenting about SI being a mystery, and this segment was only part of the post which was on the subject being discussed: ``Those who think South India is a mystery have obviously not read the exchanges between soysauce and harimau. Forget mystery, here is a garbled mess within a parochial enigma caught in the dark ages of a Periyar conspiracy!``
There was absolutely no intent to offend, but the manner in which you have tried to get back at me is very disappointing, to say the least.
[I`m probably going to regret this]
Just forget about it...and since I started that post, I am ending this matter. Should you wish to say anything or have the last word, I am afraid I will not be responding on this subject here. It is rather awkward for me to hog another board to discuss such things.
Best wishes...
- - -
harimau:
Thanks! I do not recall the brand name, but it does have the image of Goddess Lakshmi, I think, on it. Also, it comes in a `roll-on` bottle and the fragrance is truly like fresh jasmine and not an essence. Rather than an emporium it would be found in some corner store. (The person who gifted it to me was an elderly clerk, so I doubt he would frequent emporia.) If you do manage to get to it, pick up loads of the stuff to take back to the US -- it will work as a better bait than absinthe :)
My email addy is farzanavee@chowk.com...for whenever...
#105 Posted by rsridhar on August 7, 2004 11:20:00 pm
re:#101 by nazarhayatkhan
In a very well researched book, Gidwani (in the Return of the Aryans) argues that Aryans (or simply Aryas meaning ``good people``) were the original inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent (originally called ``Aryavartha``) but migrated out to various lands and some of them returned as prodigal sons back to their own homeland. It would interest u to know that Caspian Sea is named after the sage Kashyapa. The book abound in such references.
The Aryas north of the vindhyas slowly percolated south, enriching both peoples. Legend has it that sage Agasthya from North settled down in south and founded the Tamil language with its ancient grammer (the classic work is referred as ``Agathiyam``). A lot of other brahmin sages and scholars travelled south of the vindhyas bringing with them the sankrit language and their scholarship. The Tamil text for eg called ``Thirumanthiram`` was written by one ``Thirumoolar`` who was actually a migrant from the north but assumed the more popular south indian name.
The common usage of sanskrit words in south indian languages attests to the kind of close interaction over the last several millenia. It is literally impossible to speak Tamil without using some or the other ``sanskrit derived`` words at least a few times! So much for DMK`s attempts to wipe out the influence of sanksrit from Tamil.
Sridhar
In a very well researched book, Gidwani (in the Return of the Aryans) argues that Aryans (or simply Aryas meaning ``good people``) were the original inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent (originally called ``Aryavartha``) but migrated out to various lands and some of them returned as prodigal sons back to their own homeland. It would interest u to know that Caspian Sea is named after the sage Kashyapa. The book abound in such references.
The Aryas north of the vindhyas slowly percolated south, enriching both peoples. Legend has it that sage Agasthya from North settled down in south and founded the Tamil language with its ancient grammer (the classic work is referred as ``Agathiyam``). A lot of other brahmin sages and scholars travelled south of the vindhyas bringing with them the sankrit language and their scholarship. The Tamil text for eg called ``Thirumanthiram`` was written by one ``Thirumoolar`` who was actually a migrant from the north but assumed the more popular south indian name.
The common usage of sanskrit words in south indian languages attests to the kind of close interaction over the last several millenia. It is literally impossible to speak Tamil without using some or the other ``sanskrit derived`` words at least a few times! So much for DMK`s attempts to wipe out the influence of sanksrit from Tamil.
Sridhar
#104 Posted by warpster on August 7, 2004 8:58:37 pm
so lets compile a list of south indians in chowk
gujju1
nikki7777 (abcd)
rsridhar
harimau
soysauce?
warpster (yes thats me too)
veeresh (by marriage)
gujju1
nikki7777 (abcd)
rsridhar
harimau
soysauce?
warpster (yes thats me too)
veeresh (by marriage)
#103 Posted by harimau on August 7, 2004 8:58:36 pm
Ref FarzanaVersey #93
[So now you have begun to deconstruct for me, but do you think I would confuse enigma with enema? I am not yet under the influence of absinthe (and arsenic has just not worked!).]
I don`t think Masanamuthu would have understood word such as `enigna`. I had to dumb it down for him.
[{Marco Polo records about Malabar (part of present-day Kerala) that if a Nair woman took a fancy to a passing young man, he would stick his sword in the earth outside the hut to indicate that they were not to be disturbed.}
Would make better sense if she stuck the sword, unless she indeed wished to be disturbed instead of having to stifle a yawn...]
I was thinking the sword stuck in the earth would make a powerful cinematographic symbol! ;)
[About the burqa, you can`t resist a dig, can you?]
It really wasn`t a dig but an observation. Sorry I forgot to include the fact that 1200+ years of Islam in Kerala couldn`t get the Nair women to wear a blouse but about 100 years of Christian missionary activity could. Now, doesn`t that put the Moplah Muslims in better light? ;)
[Veeresh mentioned some local alcohol, white in colour...am not sure if it is toddy or arrack. Is it neer? I know that you get it as you drive through the countryside not in shops but by vendors with handcarts or bicycles...I think I saw it a few time driving from Tuticorin towards Nagercoil.]
That might be padhaneer. That wouldn`t be alcoholic, just palm juice prevented from being fermented by the application of lime to the container as the juice drains into it.
Oh, next time in the South try some palm sugar. Beats maple sugar in my opinion.
[Are you back in my country? If you happen to go to Tirunelvelli could you please pick up a couple of bottles of the local Jasmine perfume? It costs 75 bucks each (rupees, not dollahs)!]
Waiting it out in the US for a couple of friends to get married (not to each other, but separately). I should be back around Sept 15. The second wedding is on Sept 10 and I really don`t want to fly out on 9/11.
I have reasons to go to Tirunelveli so will you let me know the name of the perfume (if there is a brand name) or at what emporium it may be purchased? If you have no specific info, I will ask around.
[So now you have begun to deconstruct for me, but do you think I would confuse enigma with enema? I am not yet under the influence of absinthe (and arsenic has just not worked!).]
I don`t think Masanamuthu would have understood word such as `enigna`. I had to dumb it down for him.
[{Marco Polo records about Malabar (part of present-day Kerala) that if a Nair woman took a fancy to a passing young man, he would stick his sword in the earth outside the hut to indicate that they were not to be disturbed.}
Would make better sense if she stuck the sword, unless she indeed wished to be disturbed instead of having to stifle a yawn...]
I was thinking the sword stuck in the earth would make a powerful cinematographic symbol! ;)
[About the burqa, you can`t resist a dig, can you?]
It really wasn`t a dig but an observation. Sorry I forgot to include the fact that 1200+ years of Islam in Kerala couldn`t get the Nair women to wear a blouse but about 100 years of Christian missionary activity could. Now, doesn`t that put the Moplah Muslims in better light? ;)
[Veeresh mentioned some local alcohol, white in colour...am not sure if it is toddy or arrack. Is it neer? I know that you get it as you drive through the countryside not in shops but by vendors with handcarts or bicycles...I think I saw it a few time driving from Tuticorin towards Nagercoil.]
That might be padhaneer. That wouldn`t be alcoholic, just palm juice prevented from being fermented by the application of lime to the container as the juice drains into it.
Oh, next time in the South try some palm sugar. Beats maple sugar in my opinion.
[Are you back in my country? If you happen to go to Tirunelvelli could you please pick up a couple of bottles of the local Jasmine perfume? It costs 75 bucks each (rupees, not dollahs)!]
Waiting it out in the US for a couple of friends to get married (not to each other, but separately). I should be back around Sept 15. The second wedding is on Sept 10 and I really don`t want to fly out on 9/11.
I have reasons to go to Tirunelveli so will you let me know the name of the perfume (if there is a brand name) or at what emporium it may be purchased? If you have no specific info, I will ask around.
#102 Posted by Mitran on August 7, 2004 8:58:36 pm
#101
Sanskrit exists to various degrees in various Southern languages. The Sanskrit itself was borught to the south by Brahmin settlers who were invited by southern kings to settle down in the south. In some states they intermarried with local women and in some states they even went to the extent of converting locals to Brahmin caste (true!).
In states where the Dravidian identity has been asserted the most , mainly TN , the locals who identify with the Dravidian movement, have tended to limit the influence of Sanskrit in their language , however the local Brahmins still speak a lingo that is heavily laced with Sanskrit.
For example water is Thanni or neer in Tamil , however Brahmins refer to it as Teertham or Jalam.
RSridhar,
Northern Kerala seems to have Buddhist temples , there is one in Central Kerala as well. More of this later.
Sanskrit exists to various degrees in various Southern languages. The Sanskrit itself was borught to the south by Brahmin settlers who were invited by southern kings to settle down in the south. In some states they intermarried with local women and in some states they even went to the extent of converting locals to Brahmin caste (true!).
In states where the Dravidian identity has been asserted the most , mainly TN , the locals who identify with the Dravidian movement, have tended to limit the influence of Sanskrit in their language , however the local Brahmins still speak a lingo that is heavily laced with Sanskrit.
For example water is Thanni or neer in Tamil , however Brahmins refer to it as Teertham or Jalam.
RSridhar,
Northern Kerala seems to have Buddhist temples , there is one in Central Kerala as well. More of this later.
#101 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on August 7, 2004 7:40:32 pm
Harimau # 85
(The woman ran the household with the help of her brothers and the property descended entirely through matrilineal lines)
Property descending through matrilineal line - is some thing & quite unusual for these parts of world. I did not know this.
Since Sanskrit is not the base of the languages of the South, is there any historical explanation to their different origin? Or they originally originated in South India?
While Sanskrit is the base of all other Indo-Aryan languages spanning the continents - does this dichotomy give credence to AIT even if there is no other physical evidence available?
NHK
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