The Mystery of South India

#82 by soysauce:

[#34 Farzana Versey
PS: Those who think South India is a mystery have obviously not read the exchanges between soysauce and harimau. Forget mystery, here is a garbled mess within a parochial enigma caught in the dark ages of a Periyar conspiracy!
Explain in plain english please. What does ``parochial enigma caught..etc.`` mean?]

Pleaaaseee, it was said in jest, though come to think of it, you guys talk in tongue-twisters and want plain English from me. Parochial enigma is the incessant parochial references both of you make and one of you insists on some conspiracy theory or the other that has nothing to do with contemporary reality. My statement was not to be taken so seriously, though.

About highest suicide rate and literacy, the connection is one of frustration; that is the link.

And please do not say things like, ``What the hell are you talking about?``. It hurts me :)

Soysauce #80

{{The dravidians came earlier than the indo-eurpean speakers but the point of origin is just about the same. We are all Ay..rabs!}}

Given that hominids are supposed to have evolved in Eastern Africa, we are all Africans by the same token.

{{The aryan invasion theory is based on language analysis and archeological digs.}}

The article to which you provided a link is a very interesting summary of evidence for successive migrations of populations into the Indian subcontinent over a very long period of pre-history. They do not however provide evidence for an Aryan invasion in the form in which it is commonly portrayed. AFAIK the original 19 th century AIT was advanced primarily on the basis of linguistic commonality among the Indo-European languages and not on the basis of archaeology at all. [A caricatured synopsis of the tension that found resolution in the theory: Sanskrit was determined to have a structure very close to those of Greek and Latin, the canonical ‘high culture’ languages of European antiquity; but to possess still greater regularity, which could not be reconciled with the degraded state of the defeated ‘race’ and civilization that had inherited it. Therefore it, and its accompanying ancient high civilization, must have been introduced into India by conquering invaders.]

Here is a very nice article, devoid of hatred or hysteria, that contains a summary of arguments for and against the AIT:

The Aryan Invasion: theories, counter-theories and historical significance

The last two sections Relevance of the Aryans and Uniquely Indian aspects of Vedic literature are a refutation of the idea that ancient Indian civilization was primarily an import that developed outside the subcontinent. I would especially recommend the last five paragraphs to anyone interested in this vexed AIT business – please read them even if you don’t read the rest of the article.

#34 Farzana Versey
PS: Those who think South India is a mystery have obviously not read the exchanges between soysauce and harimau. Forget mystery, here is a garbled mess within a parochial enigma caught in the dark ages of a Periyar conspiracy!

Explain in plain english please. What does ``parochial enigma caught..etc.`` mean?

The woman is not held in great esteem in any part of our subcontinent, except as some goddess figure. Not all of SI is matriarchal; it was only some communities in Kerala, where the son too took the mother`s name. Today, it is more a continuation of the system, if at all, rather than any genuine attempt at empowerment.

Which is why despite the highest literacy rate, it also has the largest number of suicide cases.

How does the conclusion follow? It is true that suicide rates are high overall in the south and they probably are the highest in TN. There was a recent report of a study on the BBC website to this effect. It`s not uncommon for school kids (mainly boys for some reason) to kill themselves if they fail an exam and young adults of either gender to take their life if they feel rebuffed by someone they are sensually attracted to. Their egos seem so fragile. I don`t know why this is so.

where is harimau by the way??? 80 posts have passed. . .soysauce has been on at least twice and not a peep from harimau iyer. kya hua? :)

The aryan invasion theory is based on language analysis and archeological digs. Both the proponents and opponents of AIT are politically motivated. Read this article, ``Peopling of India``, (http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/hpg/cesmg/peopling.html) for a compendium of methods, incorporating mitochondrial dna analysis, in addition to the more traditional analytical methods. The picture that emerges is that the epicenter of migration of the people of europe and of the indian subcontinent is the middle east. The dravidians came earlier than the indo-eurpean speakers but the point of origin is just about the same. We are all Ay..rabs!
Religionwise, south india produced the major philosophical strands of ``hinduism``, dvaita, advaita & visishtadvaita. Nagarjuna, the great disciple of Gautama was from the south. I put hinduism in quotes, as that term is a modern invention. Certainly the saivites and vaishnavites did not consider themselves as belonging to the same belief system. Jainism enjoyed greater success in the south than buddhism did. Shravanabelegola, in present-day karnataka was a great jainist center. Jains also thrived in the pandiya kingdom until a king who had reconverted to saivism put them to death. It is said two thousand jain monks were killed by being made to sit on sharp spikes, a particularly cruel form of execution that the ``peaceful`` south indians seem to have invented.
On diet, strict saivites (veera saivam) and a majority of vaishanvaites are vegetarian.
On clothing, one may think that the saree, with the bare midriff showing, is sexy. But really, you`d be amazed how you stop noticing something once you get used to it. I cannot recall a time when I even noticed a woman`s belly unless there was something noticeable about it, such as it is distended or something. In a similar vein, wearing a blouse was uncommon for women until may be even a hundred years ago. I have seen photographs of families, where a woman is wearing a saree but no blouse. The tradition lasted a little longer amongst the ``lower`` castes until they too inherited middle-class mores. I have heard that the tradition persisted until even recently in kerala.
Marriage customs: marrying nieces or first cousins is still common. The groom is related to the bride on her mother`s side not father`s perhaps because of a belief in greated ``genetic`` distance on the mother`s side.
Farzana,
I need a clue. What the hell are you talking about?

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re: # 71 Jang

There were and are still a lot of Buddhist monuments in the South. Amaravati and Nagarjunakonda, both in Andhra, come to mind. Amaravati is particularly beautiful with many stupas and viharas. Like I have said before, Bodhi Dharma, the famous Buddhist monk, was from Kerala and he travelled to China upon the invitation of the Chinese Emperor, set up the temple of Shaolin and helped spread Buddhism there. Do a quick search on google and you will come up with dozens of links. In the modern age, Hyderabad has one of the biggest Buddha statues in the world.

Apart from Buddhism, Jainism also had a huge following in the South, particularly Karnataka. I think this is one of the reasons for the vegetarianism of a proportianately large number of Kannadigas. Chandragiri in Andhra was another Jain pilgrimage place, so was Amaravati. Sravanabelagola in Karnataka is particularly famous. Satavahanas, who ruled the Indian peninsula for around 500 years from (250 B.C.E. to 250 A.D.) were tolerant of Buddhism. In one of the links suggested by SameerJB, I read that Nagarjuna of Nagarjunakonda in Andhra, was at the court of Kanishka at Purushpura (modern Peshawar). My Buddhist professor regards Nagarjuna as one of the greatest Buddhist philosophers after Buddha himself. The folowing are just some of the many links available on the net.


http://www.ourkarnataka.com/states/history/historyofkarnataka9.htm

http://www.britac.ac.uk/institutes/SSAS/project.html

The South (in Tamil Nadu) was in fact the last pocket in India where ancient Indian Buddhism survived into modern times. So to answer your question, no, the South was NOT a big forest during the golden age of Buddhist building.

regards

Kabuli

echoboom,

I am myself a Shaivite (Iyer) Hindu and I don`t think there is much difference between Shaivites and other Hindus in Tamilnadu. Shaivites to my knowledge worship Siva and personally my paternal grandparents looked down a bit on Vaishnavites (Iyengars) as tending to be physically weak & bullheaded (go figure what that means). I think this view has to do with Siva being the destroyer i.e. violent and feared (giving rise to animal sacrifices in the past & even now in some villages). Iyengars worship Vishnu the preserver who is more approachable/less violent and ``takes care`` of the violence for them. In some cases Siva is also seen as a Dravidian God while Vishnu is ``their`` (north indian) God.

I am sure others here can give more academic info and correct me if I am wrong.

re: 69 echoboom

It is a misconception that all South Indians are Shaivites. As I have been saying, South India is very diverse and there are many religious traditions and practices in the South. Unfortunately, other people (including Northern countrymen) know little about the South or even care, and blanket everyone as Madrasis, who by the way in their opinion are mostly dhoti clad Tamil Brahmins, also very untrue. It is particularly frustrating when people read poorly written travel books and make up their minds about what a true ``South Indian`` is or supposed to be, without ever having visited the South or bothering to understand them.

Among Tamils themselves, there are Shaivites and Vaishnavites. The Nannayar saints of the Sangam period (which began in the pre-Christian era and is the classical Tamil period) were Shaivites and the Alvar saints were Vaishnavites. Both streams are highly respected and venerated in present-day Tamil Nadu. Thyagaraja, without whom, Carnatic Music would be non-existent was a devotee of Krishna. It is interesting that Thyagaraja was an Andhra, who migrated to Tamil Nadu after the sack of the Vijayanagar empire by Bahmanis. Tamil Nadu then was still under Hindu power. He wrote in both Tamil and Telugu. M.S. SubbaLakshmi, one of the greatest, if not the greatest exponent of Carnatic music today, sings both Telugu and Tamil Thyagaraja Kirtanas devoted to Krishna.

As much as I know and have observed, most of Andhra is devoted to the incarnations of Vishnu, the most important being the temple of Balaji at Tirupati. Though Shiva is also very important in Andhra. In fact no household I have been to or ever seen have just either the Vaishnavite or Shaivite deities. Traditional South Indian households have pictures of the Hindu pantheon (including Shaivite, Vaishnavite and Neutral deities) running along the walls of their living room. If done tastefully, this can be very beautiful.

Kerala Hindus are mostly devotees of Krishna and Ayyappa. Ayyappa interestingly, is result of the union between Shiva and a female incarnation (Mohini) of Vishnu. So I guess it is an intermingling of the two schools. The important temples in Kerala are Guruvayvoor (sp?) devoted to Krishna and Sabari Malai devoted to Ayyappa.

I do not know much about Karnataka Hindus to comment about them. However the most important deity in Mysore is Chamundeswari, who I think is a consort of Shiva.

For the truly orthodox devotees of either schools, I guess they can be identified by the way they wear their tilaks on their foreheads, if at all, they wear them. Shaivites run their fingers across their forehead with ash, while the Vaishnavites wear their tilaks in the form of a V just above their eyesbrows. Ancient kings might have favored one faction over the other, because all royal households had a royal deity, which they patronised. So I guess who had the upper hand depeneded upon which school the royal deity happened to be a member of.

Shaivite and Vaishnavite dont automatically translate into Ram and Ravan camps. Ram was an incarnation of Vishnu and Ravana was a devotee of Shiva. So Ram and Ravan are not an apt comparison. Most South Indian language histories start with the translations of the Mahabharata and Ramayana into their respective language. Both are tests glorifying Vishnu. However it is significant that the Southern translations of Ramayana are more balanced in their narration. Some virtues of Ravana are explained and Ravana in general is portrayed as more macho and picture of masculinity. Rama is sometimes portrayed as a wimp. Especially his killing of Vali by deceit is frowned upon.

I do not know much about the origin of the scripts and the relationship with the islands.

As for the food, like I have explained before, South Indian food is very diverse. Kannadiga food (read Kannadiga food in Bangalore), I found to be very bland. There is no hotness, but some of their dishes can be sour, such as Puliyogaraye. However Karanataka itself is very diverse with Coorgi food (yummy and spicy Pork preparations), Manalorean food (awesome seafood), Bunt food (coastal Hindu food), North Karnataka (with a heavy Marathi influence) and Udupi Brahmin food. So you see there is a huge difference.

Andhra food relies heavily on meat, poultry and seadfood. Almost everything is spicy. The dishes I like the most are toor dal mixed with spinach and tarka, with either rice or bajra roti, with a side dish of prawns or dried mutton pepper fry. None of the above mentioned dishes are sour. Andhra Pachadis cannot be translated as pickles, but as chutneys. They mostly have a peanut base or green leafy base. And are sufficiently spiced up. Pickles are also popular, and yes, some Andhra pickles and chutneys have a sour taste.

I dont think the different food signify any kind of nationalisms.

regards

Kabuli

re: 60 dost-mittar

what I meant was that it is mandatory for Hindus visiting Sabari Malai to first visit the Muslim shrine on their way to the top of the hill. Hindus in other parts of India visit dargahs and mosques, but I do not think it is mandatory in those areas. It is absolutely voluntary. But for the pilgrimage to Sabari Malai to be fruitful, it is a MUST, MANDATORY, that they visit the Muslim shrine first.

It is altogether an entirely different matter that only males and little girls and old women are allowed on the pilgrimage. Women who have periods, I believe, are not permitted on the pilgrimage. The pilgrimage in Andhra is known as ``Mala``, a kind of Hindu Haj and there are many rules that have to be observed before the actualy journey to Sabari Malai. The entire Mala period lasts for a few months I think, while the actual trip to Sabari Malai is only a couple of weeks. The rules for example are that the men must maintain a strict vegetarian diet and the food should not be cooked in the same untensils in which meat might be cooked. The men can only wear black. They are not allowed to wear any kind of footwear. They walk barefoot on all kinds of road surfaces and it can get pretty hot. They have to main high standards of personal hygiene. Shot hair and all that.

As for Muslims visiting Hindu shrines, though there are exceptions, I think it is the case of one way traffic of Hindus visiting Muslim shrines. This maybe due to the monotheistic compulsions of Muslims or the case that they are not welcome in temples due to the outright bigotry of temple authorities.

The ninth incarnation of Vishnu, Balaji, is said to have had a second wife who grew up in a Muslim Royal household. She is said to have asked Balaji to have his devotees shave their heads when they visit his temple, ala Muslim pilgrims at Haj. As an aside, tons of hair is collected every year at Tirupati and is processed into wigs. These wigs until recently used to be exported for the adornment of Orthodox Jewish women. Jewish priests recently declared that these wigs as unacceptable because they are made from the hair of idol worshippers.

Speaking of the Druze, though they speak Arabic, they are not connected with Islam anymore. They were Muslims initially, but over the course of history, have become a separate religion. The Druze situation is unlike that of the Ahmedis, where the Ahmedis insist they ar Muslims while the clerics say they are not. The Druze have their own rituals and an all knowing powerful priest (kind of like the Syedna of the Bohris) and do not beat their breasts for not being considered Muslims.

regards,

Kabuli

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vaishnavites dont put onions in their sambhar, and wear U (namam) on the forehead. Both dont put garlic in their sambhar. Shaivas wear 3 horizontal stripes + a red dot.

onion when cut horizontally, looks like (sudarshan) chakra, a Vishnu Weapon and when cut vertically, looks like a Shankhs (Conch), other symbol what Vishnu wields.

intermarriage is not that common, but its like every arranged marriage in india is pretty much within biradari. not much to do with major dislike or anything.

temples outside india tend to have both shiva and vishnu peacefully co-existing with each other (one in Maryland is even called Shiva-Vishnu temple), does not seem to bother anyone.

Ram-Ravan stuff is not an issue at all. Ravan is a thief for everyone (except some commies).

I have seen vaishanvites among tamils, marathis and gujrathis, but have seen shaivaites only in tamils. For some reason folks only seem to ``proclaim`` their vaishnavism (may be because of not eating onions).

vaishnavs wear ``Tulsi`` mala where as shaivas wear a ``Rudraksha`` mala (some kind of a dried berry fondly worn by Shiva himself.)

in the north, there is no shaiva-vaishanv sects, but northies have kind of lost much of their ``vedic`` religion, and its more of hanuman-chalisa/tulsi ramayan type (north temples dont have elaborate festivals and vedic rituals like in the south.)

Tirupathi is the richest of vaishnav (or any) temple.

its interesting to note that there are no Buddhist structures of antiqity in the south. there are some caves near Poons and offcourse the famous Paintings of Ajanta. Nothing in the south, untill we go to Sri Lanka. how come? was south a big forest during goldne age of buddhist building?

echoboom #69

{{extent of difference between Shaivites and other hindus}}

I’m not of Hindu background so I’m the wrong person to ask. My knowledge on the ‘rivalry’, such as it is, is mostly second-hand and anecdotal – stories about lawsuits concerning the sectarian allegiance of temple elephants, and the like. For accurate and detailed first-hand information, at least in the context of Tamil Nadu, rsridhar and harimau would be obvious good bets.

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kubuliwalla:29
alphanull: 49

Could you guys also tell me the extent of difference between Shaivites and other hindus. I know the theological part somewhat but I am more interested in the do`s and don`ts in the cultural , social and interactions with each other. How `fundamental` is the rivalry.

Does this automatically translate into Ravan & Raam camp?
Please also write about the origin of the script & the relationship with the islands.

---

{{As regards Kerala, the historian that travelled with the Chinese Muslim admiral Zheng He, was fascinated by the similarities between the cultures of China and Cochin.}}

what is the name of this historian and which site , if any, would be good for this info. Info on Zheng He is aplenty on the Official Chinese govt. site. His tomb has been renovated and repaired. He travelled to ``new`` world a whole century before that ``discoverer`` Columbus. Muslims were in this ``new`` world were even 600 years earlier than the western thugs.

The Ming emperor whose wife was muslim and he himself took the name Ma , but did not announce the faith. Ma is short for Mohammed and many chinese still have it. Hui are other other major muslims in china. Only religion officially recognised in China. Population of muslims in china today 50 million to 200 million.