The Mystery of South India

wow, i am a south indian.......and even i didn`t know it`s history properly. Thanks for these intersting facts.

Ref by bongdongs #133

[Among Bengali`s many go to Gaya to offer prayers for the departed. Panda`s in Gaya similarly maintain family histories.]

If anyone doubts that there is some underlying unifying factor in India, that doubt will be dispelled by a visit to Gaya. During my trip, I saw folks from Karnataka, Andhra, Tamil Nadu, Maharashtra, Bengal, ( this is my observation from the languages I heard) etc., performing the shraddha ceremony for their forefathers. The core belief that Gaya is the ultimate holiest place (not Prayag/Allahabad, not Benares/Varanasi) as far as funeral ceremonies are concerned is widespread throughout India.

The universal reverence in India for places as dispersed as Hardwar, Gangotri, Prayag, Benares (all in the North) , Puri (East), Dwaraka (West), and Rameshwaram (South) shows that the cultural unity of India was not an artificial British construct though the political unity of India is.

Ref mitran #134

[Among the Brahmins of the South, there is a tradition that the Shraddha needs to be performed only once if it were to be done in Haridwar or Rameshwaram, otherwise, there is the annual Shraddha ceremony.]

Probably, this belief varies from community to community. Shraddha at Gaya can be treated as the final and last ceremony one has to perform if for some reason one has to discontinue the practice of annual remembrance though annual ceremonies are strongly recommended even after the Gaya shraddha if circumstances would permit it. Never heard of a final ceremony in Hardwar or Rameshwaram though it is entirely possible that the priests at these places worked out something for families who are unable to travel to Gaya and want to perform one final ceremony and get it over with.

Ref Masanamuthu aka Pearl of the Graveyard #136

[Very interesting that what you got out of that whole abstract is what HLA stands for. So much for your ability to pick out meanings.]

Sigh.... I did surmise that I would have to connect ALL the dots for you but when I had three minutes to respond to you before I left for the boonies of Montana, I thought I would give you a hint. But you obviously don`t take a hint. Did you notice that NOT ONE Chowk reader had a problem with my short response other than you?

In tissue transplantation, the donor and the host are matched along various major loci designated HLA-A, HLA-B, HLA-DR. (Actually, some thirty years ago, the major loci were called HLA-A, HLA-B, HLA-C and HLA-D). For transplantation to be successful, the tissues of both the donor and the host will have to match on as many of these major loci as possible. Doctors knew already that there were some 50+ additional sub-loci which also play a crucial role in acceptance of the transplanted tissue and in the severity of the graft vs. host reaction.

It was also known that matching along the four major loci was possible with an identical twin. With a parent or a sibling, the match would in general be in less than 4 loci. However, tissue donation by a closely related family member may not be possible in all cases (as with adopted children whose birth records are sealed by law in the US or when the patient is an only child or when the parents are too old to donate tissue) and the possibility of tissue donation by unrelated donors was explored. With aggressive patient management, transplants soon grew to be quite successful even with tissue grafts from unrelated donors.

As tissue transplantation became more widespread, the possibility of setting up donor registries was explored. Thus the National and International Bone Marrow registries were formed to assist in locating HLA-compatible donors quickly. As tissue transplantation became more common, it was found that matching Hispanics, Asians (meaning Chinese), South Asians and such ethnic populations with European-descent White population was mostly out of the question. Thus separate registries catering to these ethnic groups have been set up to assist in locating willing tissue donors.

Since the medical investigation of tissue matching revealed clear differences in various ethnic groups, it would be natural for the Madurai Kamaraj University researchers to use the HLA types and the associated sub-loci within the various HLAs as the markers that might prove/disprove ethnic homogeneity in a given locality or with distant population groups.

I know what you are thinking by now, Masanamuthu, and I want to encourage you in your very first attempt at thinking. Never let it be said that a Tamil brahmin prevented a non-brahmin`s attempt to engage his brain in solving issues of crucial importance. I know you want to do good for the Tamil population in India and you are thinking of a registry of willing heart donors. You should do it and I think yours should be the first name on such a registry.

[It also is interesting that you have to rely on some distant cousin`s achievement (in terms of earning degrees) to advertise your wares. Don`t be so paranoid. If you were smart it would come through in you how you make your arguments: whether you are logical, cogent, and coherent, or making random points disconnected from reality. No need to make special efforts. It`s back to the drawing board for you.]

I was just trying to show you how a Tamil brahmin`s brain works and how he doesn`t need to be spoonfed from first grade. Just like I try to point out that the two Nobel Prizes won by South Indians were both by Tamil brahmins. A bunch of people who were temple priests and astrologers suddenly produced Nobel winners with about 50 years of Western scientific education. What have you Sudalaikkannus and Pechimuthus done with the last 40 years of affirmative action? Have you got one accomplishment you can cite? Nope. ``Monkey see, monkey do`` is not the way to accomplishments in science though it might get you far in a society of monkeys.

As to logical, cogent and coherent points, I still don`t see how you can support affirmative action (quotas and reservations) for Muslims who have indisputably murdered Hindus by the millions over several centuries while simultaneously supporting punitive sanctions against brahmins for the crime of not touching you (and thus not murdering you).

By the way, don`t tell me you haven`t seen the bellyacheing that has been going on in soc.culture.tamil and similar places in cyberspace about how the Tamil brahmins manage to get into the code coolie business in the US with a 3-year BSc degree whereas the Masanamuthus have to get a 4-year BE (well, actually, more like 7 years) or even an ME to be able to come to the US.

PS. A word about tissue donor registries. Donor registries are used for all types of transplantable tissues but in the case of bone marrow a donor can donate marrow and continue to live. People with two kidneys can donate one and survive on the remaining kidney. People can donate a lobe of their liver and survive. It is rare for someone to offer to donate a kidney or a piece of their liver to an unrelated person. That hasn`t prevented the Dr. Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu from harvesting kidneys from unsuspecting people and selling it to patients with renal disease. The doctors produced under the affirmative action program essentially are the equivalent of car thieves in the US who steal cars to order.

As your homework exercise, try and extrapolate that to your heart donor registry! The entire Chowk readership would be interested in finding out about the limitations and capabilities of the brain of a typical Masanamuthu/Tamil Jewel.

PPS. As to your comment about that specific genetic study being motivated by ideas of racial superiority, you forget that two of the researchers were Japanese who have no reason to want to prove/disprove the superiority of one Indian group over another.

Ref Digital Rectal Examination #141

[Whats the big deal abt gettin an MD? R we superhuman or somethin? There R smart MDs & stupid MDs.]

I KNOW there are stupid MDs. Look at the number of Masanamuthus who flunk the Visa Qualifying Exam in the US!

As to the rest of your comments, I think next time you should ask the doctor to use a little bit of lubricant before examining your bottom. You would then be able to sit down and not be jumpy.

Ref AnIndian #137

[Oh man! are u saying Brahmins are smarter just cuz they r Brahmins?]

Yes! Because that is the claim Inji-kari-kuzhambu aka Soysauce has been making to get into a professional college. I have no qualms at all about trumpeting my perceived superiority particularly in front of those who hold it as a grudge against me.

Ref puyu #140

[Harimau is suffering from severe persecution complex.]

Oh yeah? And AnIndian thinks that I am suffering from a superiority complex. Tell you what, if you armchair analysts have the brains, go get licensed as psychiatrists and try to earn a dishonest buck!

[If you believe in the theory of karma you shouldn`t be complaining.]

I am not complaining about any personal loss on my part. If anything, I am complaining about what affirmative action has made India into: a third-rate country proud of being third-rate.

The medal tally in the current Olympics bears out my statement. A billion people producing one lousy silver medallist. That too in a sport requiring only hand-eye coordination but not physical effort or endurance like the marathon would. And coming in behind the sand niggers of the United Arab Emirates!

HaramiU
Whats the big deal abt gettin an MD? R we superhuman or somethin? There R smart MDs & stupid MDs. Ur really scrapin the bottom of ur sewer when U bring in a distant cousin who 4 all we know could b stupid - just like u.

Harimau is suffering from severe persecution complex.
If you believe in the theory of karma you shouldn`t be complaining.

=== Interact Filtered ===
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With the brains of Tam Brams and the good looks of the pakistani`s possibilities of a true super race?

Oh man! are u saying Brahmins are smarter just cuz they r Brahmins? Why you pulling the caste card here in a thread discussing positive attributes about South India? For every Brahmin who you claim to be smart there are as many if not more non-Brahmins who have accomplished the same or more (Dr.Ambedkar comes to mind for now cuz I admire him for his papers/ideas). I was born into a Tamil Brahmin family myself and it is just sick that so many of us still go around trumpeting our superiority while licking the White man`s feet. I am not advocating for a reservation scheme either but lets not paint everyone with the same brush. Grow up and use your intelligence in ways other than trying to prove the ``superiority`` of a race.

#135 harimau
Very interesting that what you got out of that whole abstract is what HLA stands for. So much for your ability to pick out meanings. It also is interesting that you have to rely on some distant cousin`s achievement (in terms of earning degrees) to advertise your wares. Don`t be so paranoid. If you were smart it would come through in you how you make your arguments: whether you are logical, cogent, and coherent, or making random points disconnected from reality. No need to make special efforts. It`s back to the drawing board for you.

Ref Sudalaikkannu # 126

By parsing, you mean ``dumb it down for me``, don`t you?

Very simply put HLA stands for Human Leukocyte Antigen. Leukocytes are white blood cells.

When some 20 years back I started looking at HLA typing for a friend, I went to the National Library of Medicine and read about 10 years worth of journals on tissue transplantation. That means that I know how to read those journals and pick out the meaning and lose the technical jargon.

Just because your intelligence matches that of the Asian mynah which is able to repreduce human sounds doesn`t mean that others fall into the same category.

By the way, one of my distant cousins had a master`s degree in computer science and 10 years of work experience and he switched to medicine and earned his MD in the US. Something to be said for the celebrated South Indian brahmin brain against which your only defense has been that you need a quota/affirmative action for the mentally retarded.

#124 , #125

Among the Brahmins of the South, there is a tradition that the Shraddha needs to be performed only once if it were to be done in Haridwar or Rameshwaram, otherwise, there is the annual Shraddha ceremony.

#125

Among Bengali`s many go to Gaya to offer prayers for the departed. Panda`s in Gaya similarly maintain family histories.

Ref kabuliwallah #128

[...However, it is a different matter that uncles can marry their nieces (if the age difference is within reasonable limits; it is not an uncle`s right to claim his niece) and people marry their father`s sister`s kids or mother`s brother`s kids (I`m sorry...I do not know a simpler way of saying this). I have seen pretty tragic consequences of this practice of intermarrying.]

We all can see the consequences of consanguineous marriages right here on Chowk in Inji-Kari-Kuzhambu aka Soysauce!

Ref dost-mittar #125

[..The custom is to go to haridwar after the death of one`s parents for immersing their ashes into the ganges. There, one meets the family pandas (priests) who have kept the family tree for several generations in their ledgers in long hands. And during the visit, the pandas make it a point to update the family tree with the help of the visiting relative.]

Ah yes, I have read about this! Historically, these families go to the same family of pandas for services so that the genealogy is maintained by the family priest.

In brahmin households in Tamil Nadu, the requirement is to know the names of parents, grandparents and great-grandparents as these are the ancestors who are invited to attend the funeral ceremony in the spirit form. Thus I can go back three generations easily and if I had asked my father, he could have provided information on one earlier generation for sure and two if he had been observant when his father (my grandfather) was performing the annual shraddha ceremony. It was the effort of one such early generation ancestor which enabled us to obtain a copy of the genealogy.

As we moved out of our native villages into the smaller towns for jobs, we would necessarily have had to switch priests. And as we fanned out to Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta and Madras, we again had to switch priests. Since the requirement is to know only three generations, many did not see the need to write down a complete family tree.

NazrHayatKhan wrote

[It was a wise decision to divide South India into four states lest DakshinaNad got any wrong ideas.]

Well, actually that didn`t prevent The Great Intellectual and his fellow thugs in the DMK (held in great esteem by Masanamuthu aka Soysauce) from demanding a separate Dravidanad. They were just laughed out by the political leaders of the other three states!

Dost-Mittar Ji,
I was told by a friend of mine some time back, that the village priests family in Andhra used to keep track of all the family trees of the people in the village. I am not aware of this personally. May be this tradition is lost due to the fact many preists families (and other families too)started moving to cities for education and moving into other professions.

PS: Out of curiosity i collected the information about my family up to 6 generations.

re: 125

dost-mittar

I am not sure if there is a tradition of keeping family trees in the South. However, during marriage times, while fixing up couples, the family priests and elders go to extremely great lengths to ensure that the couple are not already related to each other in ways that are not permissable. They do this by cross checking their relations going back many generations. This checking is pretty comprehensive and exhaustive. For them to do this, they would have to have records of their ancestors going back a long way. On many occassions, matches are not made because a link is found between the couple many generations ago. However, it is a different matter that uncles can marry their nieces (if the age difference is within reasonable limits; it is not an uncle`s right to claim his niece) and people marry their father`s sister`s kids or mother`s brother`s kids (I`m sorry...I do not know a simpler way of saying this). I have seen pretty tragic consequences of this practice of intermarrying. I think keeping in view the health of future generations, this practice should be outlawed, just like child marriages and sati.

regards

Kabuli

#124
Contrary to your belief, I didn`t even know of any Iyer mailing list or websites.
Right. You`re a regular reader of biology journals of course. Why don`t you parse the abstract you posted in plain language without getting anyone else`s help?

So, what do you call it when during the elections ``Murasoli``, the DMK newspaper called for the Tamil masses to rise up against the domination of ``those who came in through the Khyber Pass``?
I call that you skipping on your medication again.

Harimau

Post # 119.

Thanks.

harimou:
`` But how about your own family or of those in Punjab? Is there any tradition of maintaining oral family history? That leads to the next question: will your great-grandchildren know that your ancestral village is in Pakistan?``

They will, if they keep up an old north indian custom. The custom is common to all hindus and was followed by sikhs too until two generations ago. The custom is to go to haridwar after the death of one`s parents for immersing their ashes into the ganges. There, one meets the family pandas (priests) who have kept the family tree for several generations in their ledgers in long hands. And during the visit, the pandas make it a point to update the family tree with the help of the visiting relative. I found, for instance, that one of my ancestors had a sikh name, which surprised me. While the sikh tradition is strong in my family, I had presumed that they never became ``singhs``. It seems that in the earlier days of the formation of khalsa sikhs, it was not uncommon for people to change from hindus to sikhs and back again.
The priest guarded this information zealously and would not let me make a photocopy of the tree. I wonder how long it will be before these records are computerised.
I understand that kashmiri pandits kept similar records. I am surprised that there is no such tradition in the south.

Ref dost-mittar #114

[`` Hence the Aryan Invasion Theory could be trusted to have been formulated based on available evidence alone.``

Are you implying that this means QED?]

Just after I posted that, I felt I could have worded that particular sentence better to reflect my meaning. What I meant to say was ``the Aryan Invasion Theory could be trusted to have been formulated based on available evidence alone though we might have unearthed more evidence since then which would call for careful re-examination of the theory without regard to political consequences.``

[I am quite agnostic about the two competing hypotheses. I think that it is a good thing that you have two opposing viewpoints battling it out; the amrit of truth should come out of this churning process, even though neither side is interesting in finding the truth per se.]

I agree. The politicization of the debate over AIT makes it impossible to find reason over the din of debate. Sometimes, even academic persons in the West take their debates to the newspapers rather than confine themselves to professional journals and then it becomes a question of ego.

[But according to your prescription that when there is no documented history one should depend upon tribal memory, AIT doesn`t seem to have an edge.]

The lack of documented history does lead us to depend on oral traditions. Rahul Dravid`s uncle in the US was the one who told me that his forefathers had returned to Maharashtra, earning the surname `Dravid` in the process but would they remember that after another couple of generations as movement within India is taken for granted? My own family`s documented genealogy goes back 9 generations in southern Tamil Nadu (this is rare and farsighted attempt to preserve it on paper by some distant cousin) but beyond that I have heard it stated that the previous settlement of this particular migrant group was in North Arcot district and prior to that on the banks of the Narmada river but no records exist for us to trace our genealogical roots. In this case, DNA analysis seems to be the only recourse to prove the possibility of such migration. The fact that at least until about the 1960s, caste ties were so strong in India that mingling of DNA was minimal should aid us in this search. The application of DNA analysis is definitely a better approach than the 19th century attempts to measure cephalic and cranial indices to aid in the classification of ethnic groups in India. That is why the DNA study at Madurai Kamaraj University was a step in the right direction.

Since oral traditions seem not to have survived beyond a couple of centuries, I am not surprised that we can`t find any support for the AIT. But how about your own family or of those in Punjab? Is there any tradition of maintaining oral family history? That leads to the next question: will your great-grandchildren know that your ancestral village is in Pakistan?

Some people are going around trying to collect stories of the Partition on tape. I think an equally worthwhile attempt would be for each family to gather family stories so that these memories can be preserved.

Ref Masanamuthu #116

[The Human Biology paper that harimau quotes is widely circulated among iyer mailing lists (yes there are such things!) posted on iyer web sites...]

Contrary to your belief, I didn`t even know of any Iyer mailing list or websites.

[DNA analysis has to be approached with some skepticism. The appropriate sample size, the integrity of sample handling, and the statistical analysis of the data are all important.]

Integrity of sample handling? Are we to presume that you believe OJ Simpson to be innocent?

By the way, the same study seems to have also sampled a population of Kallars (caste of Professional Thieves, you know, your own group)`

[AIT or no AIT, india`s survival and progress as a nation state depends on the present realities. It`s hitlerian to be obsessed with genetic origins or differences.]

So, what do you call it when during the elections ``Murasoli``, the DMK newspaper called for the Tamil masses to rise up against the domination of ``those who came in through the Khyber Pass``? A message of peace?

Harimu & nhk

We can blame low civilisation level of mediviel times for violence and killings.
But are things really different in the modern era 60 million died second world war, millions perished in Russia and china under communism.

In present times the quite violence continues the rich half is trying to lose weight and on diet which is a billions dollars industry, while the poor half hasn’t enough food, clean water, millions of children in Africa and Asia are dying of preventable diseases, while in the west billions are spent on breast implants and enlagements.

Ref nazarhayatkhan #120

[Thanks. I was aware of the Muslim rule in South - but the context of article was much broader to discuss it.

Generally, the periods that we talk about - brutality was the name of game be it the Europe, Chinese, Muslims or others. Mostly, the issue was territory and power....]

Believe me, I really wasn`t trying to knock Muslim rule in India. I was trying to give some perspective on the history of South India particularly with regard to invaders. The popular belief in India is that the Vindhya mountain range formed an impenetrable barrier and so the invaders stayed in the Gangetic plain. Nothing could be farther from the truth. There were invasions from the North (sometimes peaceful as in Asoka`s emissaries to spread Buddhism) as well as military campaigns in the North by South Indian kings such as King Raja Raja Chola and his son Rajendra Chola. Geographic or linguistic boundaries did not matter in the acquisition of territory; it was a branch of Shivaji`s family that established a kingdom in Tanjore in Tamil Nadu, continuing to rule it till the British finally deposed them. Much earlier, the Salivahana dynasty used to duke it out with the kings of various states in Tamil Nadu or Tamil kings were invading Orissa. Hence there were well-established roads connecting most of India and all it needed was skirting around the ravines of the Vindhyas.

The history of warfare between the Vijayanagara Empire and the Bahmani sultanates is a particularly bloody one. As I mentioned in my post #119, the Hindu rajas were equally bloodthirsty in their victories over the sultans.

What is ignored is the manner in which the new rulers bled the land. Land taxes were so high that a few villages could yield an income of several lakhs of (1 lakh = 100,000) rupees to the ruler, and this was in the 1700s when the annual wages were of the order of a few rupees. The British merely took over from the various nawabs and sultans but continued their rapacity. South India was mostly subdued by 1800 (Tipu was killed in 1799 and was the last resister to British rule) and it took perhaps another 30 years to get control of the poligars (essentially zamindars of the Nayak kingdom of Madurai who styled themselves rajas) but those were not major military actions. This enabled the British to concentrate on Western India where they turned their attention to the Mahrattas. It was their attempts to take land away from the Mahratta rulers by fair means or foul (mostly foul) that contributed to the Mutiny of 1857 when the Mahrattas agreed to fight under the banner of the Moghul emperor Bahadur Shah II.

I agree with most of the sentiments you express in your post. It is a small minority that has hijacked Islam and is bringing it a bad reputation. It happened in the 1930s in Malabar with the Moplah Rebellion. Once that was put down, you didn`t have any extremism in Kerala for 70 years. But we now see Saudi-funded extremists in Kerala too.

Ah, what wouldn`t I give for oil at $2 a barrel!

Regards.

Harimau # 113

Thanks. I was aware of the Muslim rule in South - but the context of article was much broader to discuss it.

Generally, the periods that we talk about - brutality was the name of game be it the Europe, Chinese, Muslims or others. Mostly, the issue was territory and power. Ethnicity & faith were also factors but in much fewer cases. It needs some historical research. But while most others have gotten out of this killing fetish on faith issues, Muslims in the general sense have not stabalized. In fact, lookin at the Ottomans or the Mughals, faith seems to have become a bigger nuisance.

I think this is the final battle within Islam - to go forward with the world or to go backward into the dark ages. This final flicker has been caused by the excessive oil wealth with Saudis in the last 50 years of the last century. (Deobandis & the company have existed since long with their miniscule importance)

I think better sense will prevail. The media and the world community is now far more potent than those days of history.

As Nostrademous predicted about the 10 year war at the turn of the century by a green turboned person and then there will be a 300 years of world peace.

NHK

soysauce, don`t jump to dismiss the dna surveys. they`re fascinating. scholars find the iyers in particular interesting, they`re mentioned in most talks and seminars.
farzana, harimau lives in india, did you forget?:)

Ref rajsinghi1 #117

[Harimau Post #113

Quote:

For example, when the Vijayanagara Empire fell, every man, woman and child in the capital city was put to death.

---

Is there any real reference to what has been stated above (every man, woman and child in the capital city was put to death) ? ]


I was quoting from memory from a book on the Vijayanagara Empire which referenced a French visitor to the area at that time. I am unable to lay my hands on the book since I am visiting the US now. However, I was able to locate this book which quotes from contemporary Muslim and Portuguese sources.

The book I read talked about the continual war between the Bahmani sultans and the Vijayanagara Empire. After one war, about 500,000 persons were put to death. The Hindus gave as good as they got and the area was in a population decline from so many massacres that finally the Emperor and the sultans agreed not to kill civilians. However, that agreement was put aside in the last battle for Vijayanagara.

Here is a reference for you to read. From http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/resources/english/etext-project/history/vijayanagar/book1.chapter16.html


A FORGOTTEN EMPIRE: VIJAYANAGAR
By Robert Swell

---

Project Gutenberg File Converted into HTML pages by Nalanda Digital Library under Etext Conversion Project (ECP)



BOOK 1
CHAPTER 15

Destruction of Vijayanagar (A.D. 1565)

Arrogance of Rama Raya -- Ahmadnagar attacked -- Muhammadans combine against Vijayanagar -- The league of the five kings -- Their advance to Talikota -- Decisive battle, 1565, and total defeat of the Hindus -- Death of Rama Raya -- Panic at Vijayanagar -- Flight of the royal family -- Sack of the great city -- Its total destruction -- Evidence of Federici, 1567 -- Downfall of Portuguese trade, and decay of prosperity at Goa.

Meanwhile affairs were advancing rapidly in the interior. After the Nizam Shah`s dominions had been wasted, as already described, by the Adil Shah and Rama Raya, peace was made by the restoration of Kallian to Bijapur;[320] but as soon as the allies had retired, Hussain entered into an alliance with Ibrahim Qutb Shah and again marched to attack Ali Adil. Again Ali called in the aid of Vijayanagar, and again Rama Raya marched to his aid, this time with 50,000 horse and an immense force of infantry. The opposing forces met at Kallian, when the Qutb Shah deserted to Ali Adil, and Hussain was compelled to withdraw to Ahmadnagar. Attacked in his own capital, he retreated.

``The three sovereigns laid siege to Ahmednuggur, and despatched detachments various ways to lay waste the country round. The Hindoos of Beejanuggur committed the most outrageous devastations, burning and razing the buildings, putting up their horses in the mosques, and performing their idolatrous worship in the holy places; but, notwithstanding, the siege was pushed with the greatest vigour, the garrison held out with resolution, hoping that at the approach of the rainy season, the enemy would be necessitated to raise the siege.

``when the rains had set in, from the floods, damp, and want of provisions, distress began to prevail in the camp of the allies, and Kootub Shaw also secretly corresponded with the besieged, to whom he privately sent in grain.``[321]

The siege was raised, therefore, and before long the allies separated, and the Hindu army returned home.

``In the first expedition on which Ali Adil Shaw, pressed by the behaviour of Houssein Nizam Shaw, had called Ramraaje to his assistance, the Hindoos at Ahmednuggur committed great outrages, and omitted no mark of disrespect to the holy religion of the faithful, singing and performing their superstitious worship in the mosques. The sultan was much hurt at this insult to the faith, but, as he had not the ability to prevent it, he did not seem to observe it. Ramraaje also, at the conclusion of this expedition, looking on the Islaam sultans as of little consequence, refused proper honours to their ambassadors. When he admitted them to his presence, he did not suffer them to sit, and treated them with the most contemptuous reserve and haughtiness. He made them attend when in publick in his train on foot, not allowing them to mount till he gave orders. On the return from the last expedition to Nuldirruk, the officers and soldiers of his army in general, treated the mussulmauns with insolence, scoffing, and contemptuous language; and Ramraaje, after taking leave, casting an eye of avidity on the countries of Koottub Shaw and Adil Shaw, dispatched armies to the frontiers of each.``

Both the great Shahs, therefore, abandoned certain territories to the Hindus, and from Golkonda Rama obtained Ghanpura and Pangul. It was the last Hindu success.

``Ramraaje daily continuing to encroach on the dominions of the mussulmauns, Adil Shaw at length resolved, if possible, to punish his insolence and curtail his power by a general league of the faithful against him; for which purpose he convened an assembly of his friends and confidential advisers.``

Some of these urged that the Raya was too wealthy and powerful, by reason of his immense revenues, which were collected from no less than sixty seaports in addition to very large territories and dependencies, and the number of his forces was too vast, for any single Muhammadan monarch to cope with him. They therefore pressed the Sultan to form a federation of all the kings of the Dakhan and wage a joint war. Ali Adil heartily concurred in their opinion, and began by despatching a secret embassy to Ibrahim Qutb Shah.

Ibrahim eagerly accepted, and offered his services as mediator between Ali Adil and his great rival at Ahmadnagar. An envoy was sent to the latter capital, and the sovereign, Hussain Shah, warned beforehand of the important proposals to be made, received him in private audience. The ambassador then laid before the king all the arguments in favour of the Bijapur plan.

``He represented to him that during the times of the Bhamenee princes, when the whole strength of the mussulmaun power was in one hand, the balance between it and the force of the roles of Beejanuggur was nearly equal; that now the mussulmaun authority was divided, policy demanded that all the faithful princes should unite as one, and observe the strictest friendship, that they might continue secure from the attacks of their powerful common enemy, and the authority of the roles of Beejanuggur, who had reduced all the rajas of Carnatic to their yoke, be diminished, and removed far from the countries of Islaam; that the people of their several dominions, who ought to be considered the charge of the Almighty committed to their care, might repose free from the oppressions of the unbelievers, and their mosques and holy places be made no longer the dwellings of infidels.``

These arguments had their full weight, and it was arranged that Hussain Nizam Shah should give his daughter Chand Bibi in marriage to Ali Adil with the fortress of Sholapur as her DOT, and that his eldest son, Murtiza, should espouse Ali`s sister -- the two kingdoms coalescing for the conquest and destruction of Vijayanagar. The marriages were celebrated in due course, and the Sultans began their preparations for the holy war.

``Ali Adil Shaw, preparatory to the war, and to afford himself a pretence for breaking with his ally, dispatched an ambassador to Ramraaje, demanding restitution of some districts that had been wrested from him. As he expected, Ramraaje expelled the ambassador in a very disgraceful manner from his court; and the united sultans now hastened the preparations to crush the common enemy of the Islaam faith.``

Ibrahim Qutb Shah had also joined the coalition, and the four princes met on the plains of Bijapur, with their respective armies. Their march towards the south began on Monday, December 25, A.D. 1564.[322] Traversing the now dry plains of the Dakhan country, where the cavalry, numbering many thousands, could graze their horses on the young crops, the allied armies reached the neighbourhood of the Krishna near the small fortress and town of Talikota, a name destined to be for ever celebrated in the annals of South India.[323]

It is situated on the river Don, about sixteen miles above its junction with the Krishna, and sixty-five miles west of the point where the present railway between Bombay and Madras crosses the great river. The country at that time of the year was admirably adapted for the passage of large bodies of troops, and the season was one of bright sunny days coupled with cool refreshing breezes.

Here Ali Adil, as lord of that country, entertained his allies in royal fashion, and they halted for several days, attending to the transport and commissariat arrangements of the armies, and sending out scouts to report on the best locality for forcing the passage of the river.

At Vijayanagar there was the utmost confidence. Remembering how often the Moslems had vainly attempted to injure the great capital, and how for over two centuries they had never succeeded in penetrating to the south, the inhabitants pursued their daily avocations with no shadow of dread or sense of danger; the strings of pack-bullocks laden with all kinds of merchandise wended their dusty way to and from the several seaports as if no sword of Damocles was hanging over the doomed city; Sadasiva, the king, lived his profitless life in inglorious seclusion, and Rama Raya, king de facto, never for a moment relaxed his attitude of haughty indifference to the movements of his enemies. ``He treated their ambassadors,`` says Firishtah, ``with scornful language, and regarded their enmity as of little moment.``[324]

Nevertheless he did not neglect common precautions. His first action was to send his youngest brother, Tirumala, the ``Yeltumraj`` or ``Eeltumraaje`` of Firishtah, to the front with 20,000 horse, 100,000 foot, and 500 elephants, to block the passage of the Krishna at all points. Next he despatched his second brother, Venkatadri, with another large army; and finally marched in person towards the point of attack with the whole power of the Vijayanagar empire. The forces were made up of large drafts from all the provinces -- Canarese and Telugus of the frontier, Mysoreans and Malabarese from the west and centre, mixed with the Tamils from the remoter districts to the south; each detachment under its own local leaders, and forming part of the levies of the temporary provincial chieftain appointed by the crown. According to Couto, they numbered 600,000 foot and 100,000 horse. His adversaries had about half that number. As to their appearance and armament, we may turn for information to the description given us by Paes of the great review of which he was an eye-witness forty-five years earlier at Vijayanagar,[325] remembering always that the splendid troops between whose lines he then passed in the king`s procession were probably the ELITE of the army, and that the common soldiers were clad in the lightest of working clothes, many perhaps with hardly any clothes at all, and armed only with spear or dagger.[326]

The allies had perhaps halted too long. At any rate, their scouts returned to their sovereigns with the news that all the passages of the river were defended, and that their only course was to force the ford immediately in their front. This was in possession of the Hindus, who had fortified the banks on the south side, had thrown up earthworks, and had stationed a number of cannon to dispute the crossing.

The defenders of the ford anxiously awaited intelligence of their enemy`s movements, and learning that he had struck his camp and marched along the course of the river, they quitted their post and followed, keeping always to the south bank in readiness to repel any attempt to cross directly in their front. This manoeuvre, a ruse on the part of the Mussulmans, was repeated on three successive days. On the third night the Sultans hastily left their camp, returned to the ford, and, finding it deserted, crossed with a large force. This movement covered the transit of the whole of their army, and enabled them to march southwards to the attack of Rama Raya`s main body.

Rama Raya, though surprised, was not alarmed, and took all possible measures for defence. In the morning the enemy was within ten miles of his camp, and Venkatadri and Tirumala succeeded in effecting a junction with their brother.

On the following day, Tuesday, January 23; 1565,[327] both sides having made their dispositions, a pitched battle took place[328] in which all the available forces of both sides were engaged. In one of his descriptions Firishtah estimates the Vijayanagar army alone as amounting to 900,000 infantry, 45,000 cavalry, and 2000 elephants, besides 15,000 auxiliaries; but he himself varies so greatly in the numbers he gives in different parts of his narrative that there is no necessity to accept these figures as accurate. There can be little doubt, however, that the numbers were very large. The Hindu left, on the west, was entrusted to the command of Tirumala; Rama Raya in person was in the centre, and the right was composed of the troops of Venkatadri. Opposed to Tirumala were the forces of Bijapur under their Sultan Ali Adil; the Mussalman centre was under the command of Hussain Nizam Shah; and the left of the allied army, in Venkatadri`s front, consisted of the forces brought from Ahmadabad and Golkonda by the two Sultans, Ali Barid and Ibrahim Qutb. The allied forces drew up in a long line with their artillery in the centre, and awaited the enemy`s attack, each division with the standards of the twelve Imams waving in the van. The Nizam Shah`s front was covered by six hundred pieces of ordnance disposed in three lines, in the first of which were heavy guns, then the smaller ones, with light swivel guns in the rear. In order to mask this disposition two thousand foreign archers were thrown out in front, who kept up a heavy discharge as the enemy`s line came on. The archers fell back as the Hindus of Rama`s division approached, and the batteries opened with such murderous effect that the assailants retreated in confusion and with great loss.

Rama Rajah was now a very old man -- Couto says ``he was ninety-six years old, but as brave as a man of thirty`` -- and, against the entreaties of his officers, he preferred to superintend operations from a litter rather than remain for a long time mounted -- a dangerous proceeding, since in case of a reverse a rapid retreat was rendered impossible. But he could not be induced to change his mind, remarking that in spite of their brave show the enemy were children and would soon be put to flight. So confident was he of victory that it is said he had ordered his men to bring him the head of Hussain Nizam, but to capture the Adil Shah and Ibrahim of Golkonda alive, that he might keep them the rest of their lives in iron cages.

The battle becoming more general, the Hindus opened a desolating fire from a number of field-pieces and rocket-batteries. The left and right of the Muhammadan line were pressed back after destructive hand-to-hand fighting, many falling on both sides. At this juncture Rama Raya, thinking to encourage his men, descended from his litter and seated himself on a ``rich throne set with jewels, under a canopy of crimson velvet, embroidered with gold and adorned with fringes of pearls,`` ordering his treasurer to place heaps of money all round him, so that he might confer rewards on such of his followers as deserved his attention. ``There were also ornaments of gold and jewels placed for the same purpose.`` A second attack by the Hindus on the guns in the centre seemed likely to complete the overthrow of the whole Muhammadan line, when the front rank of pieces was fired at close quarters, charged with bags of copper money; and this proved so destructive that 5000 Hindus were left dead on the field in front of the batteries. This vigorous policy threw the Hindu centre into confusion, upon which 5000 Muhammadan cavalry charged through the intervals of the guns and cut their way into the midst of the disorganised masses, towards the spot where the Raya had taken post. He had again changed his position and ascended his litter; but hardly had he done so when an elephant belonging to the Nizam Shah, wild with the excitement of the battle, dashed forward towards him, and the litter-bearers let fall their precious burden in terror at the animal`s approach. Before he had time to recover himself and mount a horse, a body of the allies was upon him, and he was seized and taken prisoner.

This event threw the Hindus into a panic, and they began to give way. Rama Raya was conducted by the officer who commanded the artillery of Hussain Nizam to his Sultan, who immediately ordered his captive to be decapitated, and the head to be elevated on a long spear, so that it might be visible to the Hindu troops.

On seeing that their chief was dead, the Vijayanagar forces broke and fled ``They were pursued by the allies with such successful slaughter that the river which ran near the field was dyed red with their blood. It is computed on the best authorities that above one hundred thousand infidels were slain in fight and during the pursuit.``

The Mussulmans were thus completely victorious, and the Hindus fled towards the capital; but so great was the confusion that there was not the slightest attempt made to take up a new and defensive position amongst the hills surrounding the city, or even to defend the walls or the approaches. The rout was complete.

``The plunder was so great that every private man in the allied army became rich in gold, jewels, effects, tents, arms, horses, and slaves, as the sultans left every person in possession of what he had acquired, only taking elephants for their own use.``

De Couto, describing the death of Rama Raya, states[329] that Hussain Nizam Shah cut off his enemy`s head with his own hand, exclaiming, ``Now I am avenged of thee! Let God do what he will to me!`` The Adil Shah, on the contrary, was greatly distressed at Rama Raya`s death.[330]

The story of this terrible disaster travelled apace to the city of Vijayanagar. The inhabitants, unconscious of danger, were living in utter ignorance that any serious reverse had taken place; for their leaders had marched out with countless numbers in their train, and had been full of confidence as to the result. Suddenly, however, came the bad news. The army was defeated; the chiefs slain; the troops in retreat. But still they did not grasp the magnitude of the reverse; on all previous occasions the enemy had been either driven back, or bought off with presents from the overstocked treasury of the kings. There was little fear, therefore, for the city itself. That surely was safe! But now came the dejected soldiers hurrying back from the fight, and amongst the foremost the panic-stricken princes of the royal house. Within a few hours these craven chiefs hastily left the palace, carrying with them all the treasures on which they could lay their hands. Five hundred and fifty elephants, laden with treasure in gold, diamonds, and precious stones valued at more than a hundred millions sterling, and carrying the state insignia and the celebrated jewelled throne of the kings, left the city under convoy of bodies of soldiers who remained true to the crown. King Sadasiva was carried off by his jailor, Tirumala, now sole regent since the death of his brothers; and in long line the royal family and their followers fled southward towards the fortress of Penukonda.

Then a panic seized the city. The truth became at last apparent. This was not a defeat merely, it was a cataclysm. All hope was gone. The myriad dwellers in the city were left defenceless. No retreat, no flight was possible except to a few, for the pack-oxen and carts had almost all followed the forces to the war, and they had not returned. Nothing could be done but to bury all treasures, to arm the younger men, and to wait. Next day the place became a prey to the robber tribes and jungle people of the neighbourhood. Hordes of Brinjaris, Lambadis, Kurubas, and the like,[331] pounced down on the hapless city and looted the stores and shops, carrying off great quantities of riches. Couto states that there were six concerted attacks by these people during the day.

The third day[332] saw the beginning of the end. The victorious Mussulmans had halted on the field of battle for rest and refreshment, but now they had reached the capital, and from that time forward for a space of five months Vijayanagar knew no rest. The enemy had come to destroy, and they carried out their object relentlessly. They slaughtered the people without mercy, broke down the temples and palaces; and wreaked such savage vengeance on the abode of the kings, that, with the exception of a few great stone-built temples and walls, nothing now remains but a heap of ruins to mark the spot where once the stately buildings stood. They demolished the statues, and even succeeded in breaking the limbs of the huge Narasimha monolith. Nothing seemed to escape them. They broke up the pavilions standing on the huge platform from which the kings used to watch the festivals, and overthrew all the carved work. They lit huge fires in the magnificently decorated buildings forming the temple of Vitthalasvami near the river, and smashed its exquisite stone sculptures. With fire and sword, with crowbars and axes, they carried on day after day their work of destruction. Never perhaps in the history of the world has such havoc been wrought, and wrought so suddenly, on so splendid a city; teeming with a wealthy and industrious population in the full plenitude of prosperity one day, and on the next seized, pillaged, and reduced to ruins, amid scenes of savage massacre and horrors beggaring description.

Caesaro Federici, an Italian traveller -- or ``Caesar Frederick,`` as he is often called by the English -- visited the place two years later, in 1567. He relates that, after the sack, when the allied Muhammadans returned to their own country, Tirumala Raya tried to re-populate the city, but failed, though some few people were induced to take up their abode there.

``The Citie of BEZENEGER is not altogether destroyed, yet the houses stand still, but emptie, and there is dwelling in them nothing, as is reported, but Tygres and other wild beasts.``[333]

The loot must have been enormous. Couto states that amongst other treasures was found a diamond as large as a hen`s egg, which was kept by the Adil Shah.[334]

Such was the fate of this great and magnificent city. It never recovered, but remained for ever a scene of desolation and ruin. At the present day the remains of the larger and more durable structures rear themselves from amongst the scanty cultivation carried on by petty farmers, dwellers in tiny villages scattered over the area once so populous. The mud huts which constituted the dwelling-places of by far the greater portion of the inhabitants have disappeared, and their materials overlie the rocky plain and form the support of a scanty and sparse vegetation. But the old water-channels remain, and by their aid the hollows and low ground have been converted into rich gardens and fields, bearing full crops of waving rice and sugar-cane. Vijayanagar has disappeared as a city, and a congeries of small hamlets with an industrious and contented population has taken its place.

Here my sketch of Vijayanagar history might well end, but I have thought it advisable to add a few notes on succeeding events.

Tirumala took up his abode at Penukonda, and shortly afterwards sent word to the Portuguese traders at Goa that he was in need of horses. A large number were accordingly delivered, when the despotic ruler dismissed the men to return to Goa as best they could without payment. ``He licensed the Merchants to depart,`` writes Federici, ``without giving them anything for their Horses, which when the poore Men saw, they were desperate, and, as it were, mad with sorrow and griefe.`` There was no authority left in the land, and the traveller had to stay in Vijayanagar seven months, ``for it was necessarie to rest there until the wayes were clear of Theeves, which at that time ranged up and downe.`` He had the greatest difficulty in making his way to Goa at all, for he and his companions were constantly seized by sets of marauders and made to pay heavy ransom for their liberty, and on one occasion they were attacked by dacoits and robbed.

Tirumala being now with King Sadasiva in Penukonda, the nobles of the empire began to throw off their allegiance, and one after another to proclaim their independence. The country was in a state of anarchy. The empire, just now so solid and compact, became disintegrated, and from this time forward it fell rapidly to decay.

To the Portuguese the change was of vital importance. Federici has left us the following note on their trade with Vijayanagar, which I extract from ``Purchas`s Pilgrims:`` --

``The Merchandize that went every yeere from Goa to Bezeneger were Arabian Horses, Velvets, Damaskes, and Sattens, Armesine[335] of Portugall, and pieces of China, Saffron, and Scarletts; and from Bezeneger they had in Turkie for their commodities, Jewels and Pagodas,[336] which be Ducats of Gold; the Apparell that they use in Bezeneger is Velvet, Satten, Damaske, Scarlet, or white Bumbast cloth, according to the estate of the person, with long Hats on their heads called Colae,[337] &c.``

Sassetti, who was in India from 1578 to 1588, confirms the others as to Portuguese loss of trade on the ruin of the city: --

``The traffic was so large that it is impossible to imagine it; the place was immensely large; and it was inhabited by people rich, not with richness like ours, but with richness like that of the Crassi and the others of those old days.... And such merchandise! Diamonds, rubies, pearls ... and besides all that, the horse trade. That alone produced a revenue in the city (Goa) of 120 to 150 thousand ducats, which now reaches only 6 thousand.``

Couto tells the same story:[338] --

``By this destruction of the kingdom of Bisnaga, India and our State were much shaken; for the bulk of the trade undertaken by all was for this kingdom, to which they carried horses, velvets, satins and other sorts of merchandize, by which they made great profits; and the Custom House of Goa suffered much in its Revenue, so that from that day till now the inhabitants of Goa began to live less well; for paizes and fine cloths were a trade of great importance for Persia and Portugal, and it then languished, and the gold pagodas, of which every year more than 500,000 were laden in the ships of the kingdom, were then worth 7 1/2 Tangas, and to day are worth 11 1/2, and similarly every kind of coin.``

Sassetti gives another reason, however, for the decay of Portuguese trade and influence at Goa, which cannot be passed over without notice. This was the terrible Inquisition. The fathers of the Church forbade the Hindus under terrible penalties the use of their own sacred books, and prevented them from all exercise of their religion. They destroyed their temples and mosques, and so harassed and interfered with the people that they abandoned the city in large numbers, refusing to remain any longer in a place where they had no liberty, and were liable to imprisonment, torture, and death if they worshipped after their own fashion the gods of their fathers.[339]

About this period, therefore (1567), the political condition of Southern India may be thus summed up: -- The Muhammadans of the Dakhan were triumphant though still divided in interest, and their country was broken up into states each bitterly hostile to the other. The great empire of the south was sorely stricken, and its capital was for ever destroyed; the royal family were refugees at Pennakonda; King Sadasiva was still a prisoner; and Tirumala, the only survivor of the ``three brethren which were tyrants,``[340] was governing the kingdom as well as he could. The nobles were angry and despondent, each one seeking to be free; and the Portuguese on the coast were languishing, with their trade irretrievably injured.

Firishtah summarises the events immediately succeeding the great battle in the following words: --

``The sultans, a few days after the battle, marched onwards into the country of Ramraaje as far as Anicondeh,[341] and the advanced troops penetrated to Beejanuggur, which they plundered, razed the chief buildings, and committed all manner of excess. When the depredations of the allies had destroyed all the country round, Venkatadri,[342] who had escaped from the battle to a distant fortress, sent humble entreaties of peace to the sultans, to whom he gave up all the places which his brothers had wrested from them; and the victors being satisfied, took leave of each other at Roijore (Raichur), and returned to their several dominions. The raaje of Beejanuggur since this battle has never recovered its ancient splendour; and the city itself has been so destroyed that it is now totally in ruins and uninhabited,[343] while the country has been seized by the zemindars (petty chiefs), each of whom hath assumed an independent power in his own district.``

Harimau

Post #113

Quote:


For example, when the Vijayanagara Empire fell, every man, woman and child in the capital city was put to death.

---

Let me make it very clear at the outset that I am not disputing or challenging what you have written above. My qustion/s are more on the basis of curiousity than anything else, on seeing/reading what has been written in the quoted post.

Is there any real reference to what has been stated above (every man, woman and child in the capital city was put to death) ?

Having asked that, let me also ask, is/was that really possible, practically, to kill everyone (those who happen to believe in/profess different faith)? Let me add here that I do know of lies like Shahjahan having cut hands (ordered) of 32000 (thirty two thousand) workers/labourers.

Once again, there is genuine curiousity than anything else on seeing/reading what has been written.

The Human Biology paper that harimau quotes is widely circulated among iyer mailing lists (yes there are such things!) posted on iyer web sites and cited in the dalistan.org website. The interest of the two sides are widely divergent and political nonetheless. For one side, it`s a matter of claiming that the brahmins came from the outside and for the other it`s a matter of claiming some european connection.
Any migration theory becomes immediately politicised. DNA analysis has to be approached with some skepticism. The appropriate sample size, the integrity of sample handling, and the statistical analysis of the data are all important. Unfortunately, this being an emerging field, there is no standard protocol and the conclusions are speculative.
I like the Gadgil essay because it tends to be comprehensive and Cavalli-Sforza whom they collaborated with is a giant in genetic anthropology with no obvious axe to grind. Ultimately, it`s a matter of academic curiosity. Tying politics to it to serve anyone`s agenda is unproductive and destructive. AIT or no AIT, india`s survival and progress as a nation state depends on the present realities. It`s hitlerian to be obsessed with genetic origins or differences.

#106 Farzana
I meant writing that you, as in soysauce, cannot understand - I do not assume any one interactor to be the standard reader.
&
Most interactors do not understand what the two of you talk about, though one has an idea that it is parochial.

I see, you do however speak for most interactors.
I brought up Hawking because that`s where `I said something.` You asked me why I didn`t.
At any rate, you keep repeating this:

Just in case you did not notice, I mentioned both of you. Most interactors do not understand what the two of you talk about, though one has an idea that it is parochial.

What parochial comments have I made? This is the blurring of the line I mentioned. harimau makes comments that only he understands based on certain stereotypes of other castes, religions and nationalities, and he does follow me around like a loyal but slightly deranged canine. But that makes me part of his hallucinations. How? I am surprised that a writer thinks talking to oneself has to be literal so no one else can have access to it in a written medium...

harimou#117-113:
Wow! You didn`t disappoint.

`` Hence the Aryan Invasion Theory could be trusted to have been formulated based on available evidence alone.``

Are you implying that this means QED?
I am quite agnostic about the two competing hypotheses. I think that it is a good thing that you have two opposing viewpoints battling it out; the amrit of truth should come out of this churning process, even though neither side is interesting in finding the truth per se.
But according to your prescription that when there is no documented history one should depend upon tribal memory, AIT doesn`t seem to have an edge.

Ref Sudalaikkannu #80

[....It is said two thousand jain monks were killed by being made to sit on sharp spikes, a particularly cruel form of execution that the ``peaceful`` south indians seem to have invented.]

The typical boast without any foundation. Vlad the Impaler aka Vlad Drakul used to impale his enemies as did Ivan the Terrible. Unless you want to make the claim that the practice was exported from South India.

Perhaps you should take credit for `sati`. After all, the wives of Tamil kings killed in battle did burn themselves on the funeral pyre of their husband in a practice known as `udankattai aeruthal` (climbing the pyre together).

[Marriage customs: marrying nieces or first cousins is still common. The groom is related to the bride on her mother`s side not father`s perhaps because of a belief in greated ``genetic`` distance on the mother`s side.]

So, is your wife your cousin or your niece? Or did you find someone else who offered a bigger dowry?

Nazar Hayat Khan,

If one doesn`t read the detailed history of South India, it is easy to assume that the South did not fall under Muslim dominance. The truth is to the contrary.

The Vijayanagara empire you mention fell to the Bahmani sultans. The Bahmani sultanate was founded by a general of Muhammad bin Tughlaq`s army and thus pre-dates the Moghul Empire in India by a couple of centuries.

Aurangzeb conquered the Deccan and appointed a Moghul governor to govern the South. As is typical of the situation (``Dilli dur ast``), the Moghul governor declared his independence after a while and stopped paying tribute and styled himself the Nizam. The Nizam`s dominion extended all the way to the northern half of Tamil Nadu leaving perhaps the last 200 miles to Hindu kings and chieftains.

The Nizam appointed his own governors and faujdars throughout South India. After a while, these persons stopped paying tribute to the enfeebled Nizams and called themselves full-fledged sultans and nawabs. The history of the Anglo-French war in India has a proxy war on behalf of rival claimants to the thrones of Arcot and Hyderabad woven though it.

Hyder Ali, a general in the Hindu king`s army, overthrew the king and took over the kingdom of Mysore. He and later his son Tipu ruled Mysore and Northern Kerala till they were overthrown by the British and the kingdom of Mysore was restored to the Hindu prince.

The rate of conversion of Hindus to Islam was not as rapid as in North India and thus South India has a smaller Muslim population. That doesn`t mean that the Muslim rulers were more benevolent or more tolerant. For example, when the Vijayanagara Empire fell, every man, woman and child in the capital city was put to death. It is just that there were too many sultanates, too many rivals to be fought off to take care of the kaffirs the way they were taken care of in North India. But you do see the concentration of Muslims and the predominance of Urdu in the capital cities of various sultanates. You also see Islamic architecture in the Char Minar in Hyderabad, the Gol Gumbaz in Bijapur, etc. What you also see is the thousands of temple, large and small, that could not be destroyed by the sultans and nawabs.

Ref echoboom #5

[The very first masjid and the first muslim of India. within 10 years of Hijraa! Amazing.]

Yes, you guys do get the first prize for the fastest propagation of religion. And no matter what your textbooks say, enlightenment did not arrive in South Asia with Mohammad bin Qasim.

Christianity arrived in Kerala in 52 AD with the arrival of the apostle St. Thomas. There was a BBC documentary tracing the path of St. Thomas from Kerala to Madras/Chennai where he is supposedly buried at the top of a hill named St. Thomas Mount.

Jews landed near Cochin in 279 AD. Jew Town still exists though the Jews have departed for Israel. It is now the spice trading market of Cochin. The synagogue there is lovingly preserved and was featured on a postage stamp on its 400th anniversary. The estimated Indo-Israeli population is 60,000, primarily descendants of the much larger Bene Israel community of Gujarat and Maharashtra.

Amazing faxts about India would fill several books.

Ref avkrishna #13

[```` About 700 to 1000 years or earlier back people from north india (brahmins) migrated to the south and integrated there into the culture. these are the present day Iyers and Iyengars (tamil brahmins mostly) who despite being a miniscule minority in their home state are prominent in the scientific and academic world (and the business world as well). ````

This looks like one more theory which fits into the Aryan invasion theory and Aryans being superior to Dravidians.. Even DMK founders had a similar theory..]

In the absence of written history, one has to make do with tribal memories.

The Iyer community in Tamil Nadu has several sub-groups which for a very long time have avoided intermarriage and stayed as endogamous groups. One of them is named ``Vada desa Vadama`` which translates to ``Northerners of the North Country`` to distinguish them from ``Chola desa Vadama`` meaning Northerners of the Chola Country. One would have to guess that the former are comparatively more recent immigrants than the latter.

Rahul Dravid (the cricketer) is an example of reverse migration. Some of the Maharashtrian brahmin immigrants returned home after a couple of generations and were forever surnamed ``Dravid`` in memory of their sojourn in South India.

The Sanketi brahmins of Mysore claim to be descendants of Tamil brahmins who migrated to Mysore from Senkottai in the Tamil Nadu/Kerala border.

As to the DMK, its predecessor movement was founded by Reddiars, Naidus, Chettiars (Telugu speaking) and (Naickers (Kannada speaking). The monumental stupidity of Masanamuthu aka Soysauce and his compatriots can be seen in the fact that they believe these people to be of Tamil origin.

No wonder the esteem in which South Indians were held as intelligent people has been going down!

Ref echoboom #21

[Iam also interested to know about the scripts of ``south-India`` . What is their origins, how they evolved and how are they linked to other languages nearby.]

Telugu and Kannada scripts are descended from the Brahmi script used during King Asoka`s time.

The Tamil language used to be written in a variety of scripts including one known as `Grantha`. Most inscriptions you see in temples are written in this script and cannot be read by today`s Tamilians unless they are trained to read the script. The modern Tamil script was created by the Italian missionary Constantine Beschi and is about 250 years old.

Ref nazarhayatkhan #101

[Property descending through matrilineal line - is some thing & quite unusual for these parts of world. I did not know this.]

I believe several of the so-called primitive tribes in the world practice matrilineal inhertitance. This of course clashes with the dominant patrilineal culture which is winning out by sheer force of numbers. The rush to conform is spurred by increased and faster communication and interaction with the rest of the world.

The last 40 years of working in the Persian Gulf sheikhdoms has produced another, in my opinion unwelcome, change in Kerala society. You now see Muslim schoolgirls wearing the hijab, a sight that was absolutely not to be seen 30 years back.

[Since Sanskrit is not the base of the languages of the South, is there any historical explanation to their different origin? Or they originally originated in South India?]

Linguistic scholars have classified all of the world`s languages into just two major categories: the Indo-Aryan and the Dravidian. The German scholar Max Muller was among the first to notice the similarity between Sanskrit and Latin and theorized that Sanskrit or a much earlier version of it is the head of the Indo-Aryan family of languages. The only other group is the Dravidian language group which consists of the 4 main languages and several dialects of South India. Curiously enough, Brahui spoken in Baluchistan is classified as a Dravidian language, indirectly lending credence to the Aryan Invasion Theory whereby the invading Aryan tribes displaced the Dravidians who were the supposed founders of the Indus Valley Civilization. Some dialects spoken by tribes in Northern and Eastern India have also been classified as Dravidian, strengthening the theory that the invading Aryans scattered the original inhabitants of Indus Valley, though the primary emigration was into the Deccan plateau and farther south.

Even more curious is the classification of such diverse languages as Finno-Ugric and Uralic-Altaic and even Chinese and Japanese as Dravidian languages. This is based more on linguistic similarities rather than racial/ethnic similarities.

[While Sanskrit is the base of all other Indo-Aryan languages spanning the continents - does this dichotomy give credence to AIT even if there is no other physical evidence available?]

I guess I have pretty much answered the question with my explanations above.

The endogamous caste system has tended to isolate markers in genes within population groups. A study by Madurai Kamaraj University some years back identified certain markers unique to them. Here is the abstract of the paper:

[Seventy-four randomly sampled Iyers, a Brahmin population of Tamil Nadu and preachers and followers of the Advaita philosophy, living in Madurai, were studied for their HLA-A, HLA-B, HLA-C, HLA-DR, HLA-DQ, C4A, C4B, and BF polymorphisms and compared with other populations. HLA alleles A1, A11.1, A24, A33, B35, B44, B51, B52, B57, Cw4, Cw6, Cw7, DR4, DR7, DR8, DR10, DR11, DR15, and DQ1 and C4A*3, C4A*4, C4A*6, C4A*Q0, C4B*1, and BF*S were represented in 15% of the samples studied. HLA alleles A25, A69, Cw3, Cw8, B45, B14, B39, B18, B50, and B56 were not identified. Various populations of Tamil Nadu were compared, but the Iyers of Madurai formed a separate cluster with Sourashtrans of Madurai and major group 4 (various Brahmin populations of Tamil Nadu); hill tribes (Irulas, Malayalis, and Badagas) and caste groups in the plains (Kallars and Nadars) formed distinct clusters. Comparison of the Iyers with other Indian and world populations revealed that Iyers form a distinct branch of the Indo-European and Central Asian tree. The Bhargavas of Lucknow, another Brahmin caste group from Uttar Pradesh, did not cluster with the Iyers but clustered with Central Asian populations. The Punjabis of Delhi clustered with European and Middle Eastern populations. Studies on two-locus haplotypes of Iyers revealed unique haplotypes in them (A26-B8, A33-B44, A33-Cw7, A1-B57, B8-DR3, B44-DR7, DR7-DQ2, C4A*32-C4B*Q0, and C4A*6-C4B*2), most of which were not identified in the Bhargavas of Lucknow and the Punjabis of Delhi. Thus it is possible that various Brahmin populations of India differ in their origin, migration, and settlement, although all of them adopted Hinduism in ancient times. A comparison of haplotypes in Iyers with the world population reveals a sharing of haplotypes with Southeast Asian populations. This implies that the ancestors of the Iyers of Madurai, who originated in the Eurasian steppes or Central Asia, might have migrated to India through Southeast Asia, thus developing the prevalent haplotypes en route.

TITLE: HLA affinities of Iyers, a Brahmin population of Tamil Nadu, South India.

AUTHORS:
Balakrishnan, K., Pitchappan, R. M., Suzuki, K., Kumar, U. S., Santhakumari, R. and Tokunaga, K.

INSTITUTION
Unit of Immunogenetics, School of Biological Sciences, Madurai Kamaraj University, Madurai, India.

SOURCE
Human Biology. 68 (4) pp. 523-37, August, 1996.]

So you can draw your own conclusion about the Aryan Invasion Theory. In today`s political climate, the AIT has become a political football with the BJP claiming that Aryans are native to India and the Congess and their followers claiming that Muslim invaders of India are no less Indian than the Aryan invaders. Thus do not expect scholarship in modern studies of the Indus Valley Civilization, the Rig Veda, linguistics of proto-Sanskrit, etc.

I am almost tempted to agree with hamidm2 that the currently much-hated white man at least didn`t care to contend with opposing political viewpoints, not that there was much of a political ferment in India in the second half of the 19th century. Hence the Aryan Invasion Theory could be trusted to have been formulated based on available evidence alone.

Ref warpster #104

[so lets compile a list of south indians in chowk.....]

How can you forget Brother Jay?

#94 by soysauce:

Rather strange that you should dig out Hawking now...

[`Btw, imprecise writing (which means writing that you cannot understand) is not to be confused with yellow journalism.`
Imprecise means being vague not inscrutable. Yours is certainly a new definition.
Yellow journalism is characterized by vague accusations, idle speculations, and prurient interst. There`s vaguenss there all right.]

I meant writing that you, as in soysauce, cannot understand - I do not assume any one interactor to be the standard reader.

[`My last two pieces were pretty simple to understand, but for your sake I will try to add footnotes.`
No, please carry on. I simply don`t read such articles. Tabloids don`t provide footnotes AFAIK.]

And without reading them you pronounce judgement? Tabloids may not provide footnotes...academic treatises do -- that does not absolve them from idle speculation.

[`Yup, hope I can recover too...from the damning realisation that people cannot take a simple joke.`
How was that a joke? If someone said Farzana & her detractors are blahblah constantly exchanging insults on patriotism blahblah, would you consider that a joke? I know for a fact that such exchanges are onesided. Blurring that line is not a joke unless its a particular brand of humor I don`t understand.]

Just in case you did not notice, I mentioned both of you. Most interactors do not understand what the two of you talk about, though one has an idea that it is parochial. Therefore, this was all I stated when people were commenting about SI being a mystery, and this segment was only part of the post which was on the subject being discussed: ``Those who think South India is a mystery have obviously not read the exchanges between soysauce and harimau. Forget mystery, here is a garbled mess within a parochial enigma caught in the dark ages of a Periyar conspiracy!``

There was absolutely no intent to offend, but the manner in which you have tried to get back at me is very disappointing, to say the least.

[I`m probably going to regret this]

Just forget about it...and since I started that post, I am ending this matter. Should you wish to say anything or have the last word, I am afraid I will not be responding on this subject here. It is rather awkward for me to hog another board to discuss such things.

Best wishes...
- - -
harimau:

Thanks! I do not recall the brand name, but it does have the image of Goddess Lakshmi, I think, on it. Also, it comes in a `roll-on` bottle and the fragrance is truly like fresh jasmine and not an essence. Rather than an emporium it would be found in some corner store. (The person who gifted it to me was an elderly clerk, so I doubt he would frequent emporia.) If you do manage to get to it, pick up loads of the stuff to take back to the US -- it will work as a better bait than absinthe :)

My email addy is farzanavee@chowk.com...for whenever...

re:#101 by nazarhayatkhan
In a very well researched book, Gidwani (in the Return of the Aryans) argues that Aryans (or simply Aryas meaning ``good people``) were the original inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent (originally called ``Aryavartha``) but migrated out to various lands and some of them returned as prodigal sons back to their own homeland. It would interest u to know that Caspian Sea is named after the sage Kashyapa. The book abound in such references.
The Aryas north of the vindhyas slowly percolated south, enriching both peoples. Legend has it that sage Agasthya from North settled down in south and founded the Tamil language with its ancient grammer (the classic work is referred as ``Agathiyam``). A lot of other brahmin sages and scholars travelled south of the vindhyas bringing with them the sankrit language and their scholarship. The Tamil text for eg called ``Thirumanthiram`` was written by one ``Thirumoolar`` who was actually a migrant from the north but assumed the more popular south indian name.
The common usage of sanskrit words in south indian languages attests to the kind of close interaction over the last several millenia. It is literally impossible to speak Tamil without using some or the other ``sanskrit derived`` words at least a few times! So much for DMK`s attempts to wipe out the influence of sanksrit from Tamil.
Sridhar

so lets compile a list of south indians in chowk

gujju1
nikki7777 (abcd)
rsridhar
harimau
soysauce?
warpster (yes thats me too)
veeresh (by marriage)

Ref FarzanaVersey #93

[So now you have begun to deconstruct for me, but do you think I would confuse enigma with enema? I am not yet under the influence of absinthe (and arsenic has just not worked!).]

I don`t think Masanamuthu would have understood word such as `enigna`. I had to dumb it down for him.

[{Marco Polo records about Malabar (part of present-day Kerala) that if a Nair woman took a fancy to a passing young man, he would stick his sword in the earth outside the hut to indicate that they were not to be disturbed.}

Would make better sense if she stuck the sword, unless she indeed wished to be disturbed instead of having to stifle a yawn...]

I was thinking the sword stuck in the earth would make a powerful cinematographic symbol! ;)

[About the burqa, you can`t resist a dig, can you?]

It really wasn`t a dig but an observation. Sorry I forgot to include the fact that 1200+ years of Islam in Kerala couldn`t get the Nair women to wear a blouse but about 100 years of Christian missionary activity could. Now, doesn`t that put the Moplah Muslims in better light? ;)

[Veeresh mentioned some local alcohol, white in colour...am not sure if it is toddy or arrack. Is it neer? I know that you get it as you drive through the countryside not in shops but by vendors with handcarts or bicycles...I think I saw it a few time driving from Tuticorin towards Nagercoil.]

That might be padhaneer. That wouldn`t be alcoholic, just palm juice prevented from being fermented by the application of lime to the container as the juice drains into it.

Oh, next time in the South try some palm sugar. Beats maple sugar in my opinion.

[Are you back in my country? If you happen to go to Tirunelvelli could you please pick up a couple of bottles of the local Jasmine perfume? It costs 75 bucks each (rupees, not dollahs)!]

Waiting it out in the US for a couple of friends to get married (not to each other, but separately). I should be back around Sept 15. The second wedding is on Sept 10 and I really don`t want to fly out on 9/11.

I have reasons to go to Tirunelveli so will you let me know the name of the perfume (if there is a brand name) or at what emporium it may be purchased? If you have no specific info, I will ask around.

#101

Sanskrit exists to various degrees in various Southern languages. The Sanskrit itself was borught to the south by Brahmin settlers who were invited by southern kings to settle down in the south. In some states they intermarried with local women and in some states they even went to the extent of converting locals to Brahmin caste (true!).

In states where the Dravidian identity has been asserted the most , mainly TN , the locals who identify with the Dravidian movement, have tended to limit the influence of Sanskrit in their language , however the local Brahmins still speak a lingo that is heavily laced with Sanskrit.

For example water is Thanni or neer in Tamil , however Brahmins refer to it as Teertham or Jalam.

RSridhar,

Northern Kerala seems to have Buddhist temples , there is one in Central Kerala as well. More of this later.

Harimau # 85

(The woman ran the household with the help of her brothers and the property descended entirely through matrilineal lines)

Property descending through matrilineal line - is some thing & quite unusual for these parts of world. I did not know this.

Since Sanskrit is not the base of the languages of the South, is there any historical explanation to their different origin? Or they originally originated in South India?

While Sanskrit is the base of all other Indo-Aryan languages spanning the continents - does this dichotomy give credence to AIT even if there is no other physical evidence available?

NHK

#93 Farzana
I`m probably going to regret this, but-
Now it is my turn to protest: what yellow journalism are you talking about? And if you felt this way, you could have said so on my boards.

I did say so regarding your sensational article on Hawking.

Btw, imprecise writing (which means writing that you cannot understand) is not to be confused with yellow journalism.

Imprecise means being vague not inscrutable. Yours is certainly a new definition.
Yellow journalism is characterized by vague accusations, idle speculations, and prurient interst. There`s vaguenss there all right.

My last two pieces were pretty simple to understand, but for your sake I will try to add footnotes.

No, please carry on. I simply don`t read such articles. Tabloids don`t provide footnotes AFAIK.

Yup, hope I can recover too...from the damning realisation that people cannot take a simple joke.

How was that a joke? If someone said Farzana & her detractors are blahblah constantly exchanging insults on patriotism blahblah, would you consider that a joke? I know for a fact that such exchanges are onesided. Blurring that line is not a joke unless its a particular brand of humor I don`t understand.

re:#61 by ballukhan
The name Sridhar itself is common to both sects. But, if u must know, i am an Iyengar.
Sridhar

re:#67 by jang
You seem to harbor a stereotype, which is: only Iyengars can have vaishnavite names! Harimau will tell u that it is quite common to find such names among his community. My best friend (who went to IIT, Delhi) had a younger brother with the same name as mine. But, the reverse is often not true ie Iyengars rarely have shaivite names. I guess, this has something to do with paronoia that they had in the past, being a smaller community.
Sridhar

re:#68 by Gandiv
AIT has been discussed extensively in some other forums in Chowk. In an international conference of historians held in USA, it was decided to give it a decent burial. I will post the link later on if i can find it. Anyway, even the most distinguished Harvard historian (Waltz?) now accepts that AIT has no scientific basis.
Sridhar

re:#71 by jang
Buddhism spread to Srilanka from the North India under the Mauryas (Ashoka sent his own children: Mahendra, Sanghamitra to Srilanka and SE Asia to spread Buddhism). I think since south did not fully fall under the Mauryas, hindu influence prevailed. This is not to say that Buddhism did not exist in the South. It coexisted with Jainism and other belief systems. But i do not know why no buddhist temples exist in the south. You have me there.
Sridhar

echo, all kinds of rocket were use in medieval wars in india. tipu is not an inventor or anything. just because he is a muslim you want to go gaga over him?

There is a very strong evidence against AIT, there is not collective memory or scripture or writing anywhere which talks about an aryan invasion. Even relatively simple civilizatoins like the hawaiians have their ancient voyages in collective memory.

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