Bhaiya, Malhar Sunao

It took 25 years for Indian government to start processing (not actually paying compensation) the claims of unfortunate victims of Bhopal industrial disaster. Thousands perished meanwhile hoping to see a better day in their life coughing blood and vomiting their inards out. The interesting thing is that Union Carbide paid the agreed compensation of 450+ million dollars to Indian government some 20 odd years ago. Where is the interest on that 440 million dollars accumulated over 20 years - nobody knows, nobody asks. And we are supposed to beleive that this government is compassionate towards a hated minority? Is this government supposed to protect its minority? One has to live in cukkooland to have such a supposition. Is there a wonder, 80,000+ Kashmiris have been murdered in cold blood and copuntless women and children raped by its army and no one in the country dares ask, why? Should Muslim minority trust this government? If Babri Masjid Massacre and Gujrat Genocide are not enough to open their eyes then what is? Therefore, it makes more of a compelling case, for Indian Muslims to arm themselves for the coming armagadon - the next mahabharat - the next ram lila that is bound to be written with Muslim blood. I would appeal to the good conscience of all compassionate Hindus (if such an animal exists) to help their Muslim fellow human beings to arm themselves. The writ of Indian government to protect Muslims has failed not once but it has failed every day of every year for the past 57 years. It is in Indian government`s own interest to have a safe and protected minority. A well armed, well trained Muslim citizen who is confident of the safety of his family is the best protection India will have to save itself from disintegration. The only thing that is keeping India intact is the inherent politics of anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistan hatered. Keep in mind that negetive politics can go only so far only for so long.

Hamid_81,
I am tempted to call you an idiot as well since you believe in equality but I’ll let it go this time.
But dear boy, lame excuses/explanations do not make an effective argument.
You haven’t answered yet as to what you are doing abroad if your country is such a secure haven.
Nobody is denying Gujarat. It happened and might happen again.
The point is you are not expressing your pain and anger and sympathy at your hapless prosecuted Muslim brethren here; you are being vitriolic.
Believe me Indian Muslims prefer to be prosecuted here in India than in Pakistan by their own on being muhajirs, Shias, Qadiyanis, non-Muslims etc., etc.
A writer’s responsibility is not just to write about facts but also offer solutions. His work should function as a soothing balm.
Your story brings back painful memories, yes but it also evokes repulsion.
That’s not what you are supposed to do. Next time try to assuage hurt feelings and not stoke them.
You are forgiven this time for you are still a kid, after all.
Perhaps you have some personal grievances to settle having lost a dear one in communal riots here; that would explain your extreme feelings.
Its not to say, Indian Muslims, whether or not they have suffered a loss, lack spine.
The feelings of anger, frustration, rebellion, and revenge do overcome them too; but they are only exercising restrain. That by no means should be misconstrued as cowardice for remember, God is with those who are patient.
Take care.

dost-mittar Sahib,
I admire you for realizing that Pakistan and India are two different countries and nobody should use one criterion to judge both countries. That is what I have been trying to say for sometime but people just won’t give up their preconceived notions of pride and accept that born out of one, both countries have taken different paths of development, sibling rivalry notwithstanding, both will continue to traverse a different path. With the passage of time differences would overwhelm similarities.

Pakistan’s problems and issues are entirely different than Indian problems. Most Pakistanis have not grown up with neighbors of different religions and different cultures attempting to survive in tough economic environments that are common to both countries. Fortunately, I grow up in an area where Hindus were my buddies. I learned to understand that it is not a major issue, if my Hindu friends support Indian cricket team.
With that in mind, I also know that barring some Mullah shouting in the mosques in cities in Sindh, Hindus are a vibrant community. I also know with mullah, bigotry is on the rise in Pakistan and I am not as in touch with the daily life as I used to be in my younger days.

However, your stats don’t match the logical test. Your 20-22% looks good if you take former East Pakistan into the picture.
With a huge population shift between 1947 and 51, the numbers changed more drastically then you can even think of.
Hindus were about 20% of Sindh Population in 1947. Sindh accepted about 2 to 3 million refugees in 1947 and that changed the population numbers as now Hindu percentages were reduced by incoming Muslims. A good portion of Hindu left Sindh (what a tragedy!) from 1948 to 1951. So the base numbers to compare Hindu population should be 1951 census and not 1947 numbers as they were too fluid statistically.
I think if you look at numbers from 1951 onwards there is no significant change of Hindu Population in Sindh or in the current Pakistan, percentage wise. Again you also need to consider population growth rate that is much higher in Muslims families than in Hindu families.
I will try to get all the numbers for you but if you look at the whole situation and research it yourself you will get to the bottom of it.
I am not going to bring in Punjab as both Punjabs pretty much were cleared out of competing religions within a few months of partition.

Balochistan never had 20% Hindu population. Most of the Hindus were in areas near Sindh around Jacobabad. Hindus still own significant number of retail stores and businesses in that area.

#124 by stuka
AlephNull was going to get a tongue lashing of his life for his Incontrovertibly weird post, but you floored me. I just had an extra shot for you. If I change my style, I will not be me.
Still-
#116 by AlephNull
“Incontrovertible facts that show that people of any religious or ethnic background not only survive but also thrive in India”

I am going to ignore your weird sarcasm and ask you to present economic and social indice from India to support your claim. Quoting Azim Premji is not an “incontrovertible” (what a tongue twister!) evidence.

Just read the article - a fictional story. So whats the fuss about? Hamid M obviously has a different perception of India than Indians, thats his reality and he is welcome to it - let him write. And he has written some good stuff in the past that was appreciated by Chowkies across the divide. Which is why some of the hate that comes across in his interacts was a bit surprising. Obviously anything we say can and will be used against us. Life goes on....

``This is why I said in my earlier post that the best thing Pakistanis can do for IMs is to improve their own record of treating any minorities``

I completely disagree Dost Mittar. Pakistan can ethnically cleanse their country of minorities. It should have no effect on the way we view fellow Indians. I find this blackmail of Indian Muslims repulsive, be it used to defend the Kashmir cause or to talk about Pakistan treating its minorities the way they want to.

Pakistan is a soveriegn nation and can do what it wants. However, it will get a bloody nose and more if it tries to dictate policy to us about our internal affairs. As far as the Hindu-Muslim issue inside India is concerned, Pakistanis have the freedom to comment but should not expect us to take them seriously on the moral ramifications. They obviously have no locus standi on the legal issues.

HP:
I think that India and Pakistan have different concepts of nationhood, which makes them view their respective minorities differently. This is as it should be: a country that swears by secularism cannot use the same benchmark for its behaviour towards its minorities as does one which openly calls itself islamic with parallel sharia courts. So, muslim Indians and the Indian and international human rights organizations have every right to haul Indians over the coals for not living up to their constitutional guarantees.
However, the picture changes when Pakistanis take up the case of Indian muslims, especially when they start comparing Indian record unfavourably with their own. The last thing Indian muslims need is to use Pakistan as a role model for treating minorities, esp. hindus, since it invites counter arguments even from people like me. As you are well aware, the population of muslims in India has gone up from around 30 million after partition to around 140 million today, growing even faster than the overall Indian population. While statistics on the Pakistani side are sketchy, I have recently read some Pakistani columnist use official statistics to point out that the proportion of Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan after the partition in areas now forming Pakistan was about 20-25% in Sindh and Balochistan and a much smaller proportion in Panjab. Their proportion is nowhere near that now; I am not even sure if their numbers have gone up at all in absoute terms over the last 55 years.
Until recently, these divergent trends did not matter. However, with the rise of the communal hindu political forces, there are born again tnt-ites in India today. Pakistanis complaining about muslims in India truly play into the hands of these elements. This is why I said in my earlier post that the best thing Pakistanis can do for IMs is to improve their own record of treating any minorities. Saying that you dont have any anti-hindu riots is not good enough - we don`t want to have a case of `na mareez rahe na marz`.

``I notice that HPs club is growing. ``


Rahul

I don`t know what you mean by that. HP`s views would be considered heretical amongst the Pakistani establishment. I think people may disagree with HP`s style or modus operandi and they are confusing that with his actual opinions. I have no problem discussing openly India`s problems with HP because this guy is a man of integrity and will discuss for the sake of enhancing dialogue and discussion and not to score cheap shots. I don`t agree with his style but that is very different from the content of his opinions.

Halur:

Well then don`t expect to be taken seriously by Non-Muslims, as simple as that. I suspect however that you are Indian.

Many posters miss the central fact that Pakistan is an islamic state , specifically a homeland for Indian Muslims (It is another matter that the majority of `indian` muslims live in bangladesh and india). So for a pakistani it is perfectly fair to be *only* concerned about oppression of muslims and at best be indiifferent and at worst endorse oppression of religious minorities in pakistani. the hudood lawa are a fine example. Pakistanis can and will not be apologetic about such laws, the blatant persecution of christians in pakistan, while point to every viloation of secularism in india.

There is and will never be symmetry in the dialog between indians and pakistanis. we are coming at this from diametically opposite welt-anshaungs. Pakistanis can have their cake and eat it too. indians better get used it.

Just to put things in perspective,let me mention that Censor Board has banned Rakesh Sharma`s documentary ``Final Solution`` and we should be talking about this,rather than fighting with these deluded people.We have our share of problems.We need to raise voice against this censorship and there is an online petition too against it.(I personally dont care about them,but if someone wishes to sign it some googling will take you to it) I dont know why it was banned and I want to find out.

malik,HP I really cant add much to what Stuka has said but why is your International Biradarbazi so selective and myopic? This guy makes wrong generalizations like Hindus are out to kill Muslims and you guys talk about constructive discussion.I would not mind having a discussion with even a paki but when all this guy can do is to do kiddish LOLs and go hide somewhere then what kind of discussion do you suppose we can have? This is why we are forced to talk in the language that he understands and forced to mention Godhra as the cause of Ahmedabad. A sane person would realize that Godhra and Gujarat does not happen everyday and everywhere in India. There is an IM who has writtten an article about Kakori , if you would have read that. There are IMs who are interacting here,but no,all that is being done here is pseudo biradarbazi and naarebazi that we should arm Imdian Muslims. The irony is that the IM is supposed to be apologetic about such asinine stupidity and Hindus like gujjubania would post long diatribes against Indian muslims. Such stupidity and generalizations do tend to radicalize even sensible people.
And becoz of this some people tend to act surprisingly .There is an article condemning Bush but along with that condemning Democracry.The guy says that Dictatorship is ok and some kind of oppression is necessary to run the country. As if there are not enough sticks to beat Bush with. In the spate of international brotherhood urstruly says mashallah subhanallah to that article and then cries about how the army is opressing people in pakistan.This is amazing logic. Please get out of your international brotherhood syndrome and realize that there are not enough jihads to be fought as you want to.Then we will have a constructive discussion.

ana #45 Thanks for replying and Sorry for replying late.I notice that HPs club is growing.
Regarding your reply your point a) is really insightful.And you are right, we should not take this silently.Though usually these people are way over the top and not prone to any reason.
But what I meant as ``provoking strongest feelings`` was when we become so blind in hatred that we characterize a group of people in that hatred.The only reason I posted on this board was your sentence that ``What will this make us pakis look like?`` This is what I am afraid of. For me, I refuse to belive that every paki would think like hamid,unless and until I personally interact with each and every one of them. And chowk is certianly not representative of either India or Pakistan.And this is exactly what I meant when I said these people are irrelevant, they are so deluded that you should not make your opinion about an average paki based on them.
Otherwise,I doubt if anybody here is up for a serious debate and that is the reason I kept away.

Kaurasach

What makes you think that the people who could not forget the face of a terrified Muslim will give even a second glance at a bleeding and terrified Hindu? You think Hamid81 and his ilk consider non Muslims as humans?

Just read the article and the ensuing discussion. The author is not the non-interacting type, for a change; his numerous interacts seem quite revealing of his worldview. People have observed that the quality of writing doesn’t have much to recommend it. The rawness and lack of artifice may be appropriate in this case. In a symbolic sense (ignoring details like the distance from UP to Gujarat and the incubation period of HIV) something on the lines of the story in the article could very well have happened, not once but many times. The author and people who agree with him might want to ask themselves whether being considered parasites, traitors in their own land, living in the fear of death, is indeed the only reality, or the dominant reality, that Indian Muslims face. Incontrovertible facts that show that people of any religious or ethnic background not only survive but also thrive in India, may be what drive people like the author over the edge into paroxysms of fury at being betrayed by reality.

But at any rate none of us will be able to confront and defeat either flesh-and-blood demons or the ones in our minds unless we are allowed to openly express our rage, terror, hatred and desperation. I don’t think Chowk betrayed its stated purpose when it allowed this article to be published. I do hope that all interacts on this article, excepting those that are content-free abuse and nothing else, will be preserved intact.

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