Bhaiya, Malhar Sunao

#178 by hamid_81 on August 26, 2004 6:39pm PT

Norah Joans is hot! I have heard a lot about Begum Rais Khan as well- she is supposed to be even hotter. Have you heard her moan in Shankara when her Sitar is played by Rais Khan`s tabalchi??

BalluKhan. Your language doesn`t befit a Ustad of your caliber. But I gues you are just one of those low-life randi baaz sort of people who don`t care about their outlook. But good! That tells me alot about you. And please I unlike you have a girlfriend to spend my nights comfortably with rather than jerk off anywhere in anyway. You on the other hand might try dating. Or better still Johnson and Johnson baby lotion. Helps alot. LOL. Secondly I would love to have a go at Nora Jones the ill-legitimate daughter of Ravi Shankar. Ill-legitimate? Hmmm I wonder. The Hindu Pandits were supposed to be ``good``. Ravi Shankar is really ``Hindu-trash``. And you are ``Muslim-trash``, who should only be discarded out of the society.
And yeah, I still have something that works and I can jerk off with it. How about you? How old are you?

Ok Noora Pehalwan- you can jerk off on your fantasies about your Sitar Kushti with Ravi Shankar on this Board and proclaim yourself to be “Rustum-e-Hind”.

Lol!!

Unfortunately i don`t have the equipment to record a taan.

And Mr. harish_hyd. Yes that is why people take notice of my playing and laugh at Ravi Shankar. Not the ones who don`t know anything about music, and neither the ones who know Ravi Shankar becaue of his association with beatles. But the ones who know what is being played and how it is being played. The truth is Ravi Shankar sucks and so does is his daughter. He is just not good and there are definetly far far better sitarists out there. Even a ten year old can make better coherence with sitar.

#173 by ballukhan on August 19, 2004 8:43pm PT

So Noora Pehalwaan, where is your best Taan??

#172 by hamid_81

[``a speed crazed zombie with the Sitar. `` What a great term you have given me balluKhan to describe Ravi Shankar. He really is exactly what you said. Whereas I know different kinds of taans, how to play them, and also how to sing them. So when I play it is coherent, and makes sense.]

Is that why the world sits up and takes notice when you play the sitar, while it simply ignores Ravishankar?

Stop making an ass of yourself.

#172 by hamid_81 on August 19, 2004 9:58am PT

Let us see how good you are? Give me a link to download your fastest and best tan.

``a speed crazed zombie with the Sitar. `` What a great term you have given me balluKhan to describe Ravi Shankar. He really is exactly what you said. Whereas I know different kinds of taans, how to play them, and also how to sing them. So when I play it is coherent, and makes sense. I have had the previlege of getting daad once from Ustad Rais Khan, on one of my ``Badhar Taan`` in Jaijaiwanti, in a live concert, twice from Imrat Khansaheb, on ``chut ki taans`` also during a live concert performance, and many a times from Shafaat Khan for playing Gamak ki Taan in Chandni Kedara. So I know what I am talking about. But just by listening to Ravi Shankar you can see, he just doesn`t know how to do it. Baba Allauddin taught him, how to play Sarod on the sitar. All his Baaj is ``dir dir``. All Mizrab. Nothing else. Now Rais Khan, and his baaj is solid. From taans to Mizrabs to phirat, it lacks in nothing. I don`t say it. The world does. And the world is right. I can understand your professional jealousy BalluKhan. And I feel sorry for you. But alas! Accept the facts. You are no match for him. Whether he sings ghazals, or plays the sitar, he will still be better known than you are in every way,more respected and loved by everyone who knows him.

I would just like to add to what has been said by ballukhan about Rais Khan being forced to put aside his sitar and take the help of a harmonium (better known as BAJA in these parts) for the sake of surviving in Pakistan.

It is not only `visitors` like Rais Khan that have been neglected by listeners in Pakistan, but also its local treasures, to the extent that that have been forced to take up other occupations just to earn a decent living. A good example is that of Ustad Saleem Khan Poonchwalay. He is an accomplished and award winning Sitar player. Having won many a heart with his mesmerizing performances at the All Pakistan Music Conference held at Lahore annually. He has to earn his living teaching girls the Sitar at a local college and also going house to house giving Sitar lessons.

Very often we commit the mistake of blaming the governments for such distressing lives led by most artists, what we completely ignore is the fact that each one of us can contribute positively to the plight of these musicions, not by squabbling over which launda can beat up whom.

Furthermore, its music guys, not the NOORA QUSHTI that someone should be beating somebody with the speed of their paltas, balampat/durat ki gut etc.

#168 by hamid_81 on August 14, 2004 11:15pm PT
It`s Ok if you want to trade abuses- Rais Khan is a sorry figure in Pakistan and if you want to deny this fact by abusing every one else makes you are cut into a sorry figure too.
And how did you assume I have ANY association with Ravi Shankar?? ofcourse your immature and small brain plays all those imaginary tricks with you by automatically branding those who oppose RAis Khan`s decision to migrate to Pakistan as ``spies`` of RAvi Shankar!! I have laughed at these petty politicking by these musicians- and I can only laugh at your level of understanding!
Regarding a Sitarist teaching a sarangiya- figure out how Annapurna taught Hari Prasad or Allahuddin Khan Saheb taught RAvi Shankar Sitar or Ali Akbar teaching Nikhil Banrejee or Imrat Khan teaching his son Wajahat??
And what is this Kushti and ``beating`` an 80 year old man you talk about?? There are hundreds of Sitarists in India who can do ``dir dir`` faster than any of you speed crazed maniacs- but that is NOT Classical music.
And now I think I am wasting my time trying to educate an ill mannered and un-couth kid who thinks knows all that he needs to know about classical music and acts like a speed crazed zombie with the Sitar.

#167 by Banjaara on August 14, 2004 4:00pm PT
Putting things back in context that comment was about Rais Khan Saheb`s singing capabilities- and it was a sad reminder on how he has to keep aside his Sitar and take to the besura harmonium in order to survive in Pakistan.

And I am ashamed that he is a musician, and a classical one for that matter. BalluKhan and his likes only lick the soles of those who are more influential than they are, associate themselves with Ravi Shankar and earn a living. One thing I can`t understand is that Pandit Ramesh Mishra the sarangi Nawaz, has never learned Sarangi from Ravi Shankar but calls himself his Shagird. Probably he has never met Ravi Shankar, but because Ravi Shankar is influential and can get him a reward he associates himself with RS. So does loser musicians like BalluKhan. I can guarantee any new ``launda`` from even India can beat RS and his terrible daughter in one go.

ballukhan # 156.

[In fact Rais Khan Saheb is no match even for the kids from SaregamaPa serial on Zee TV.]

This kind of arrogance would not sit easily on a Ravi Shankar or Vilayat Khan or even Baba Allauddin Khan. Ballukhan Saheb, you must be one heck of a Ustaad. I bow to your greatness.

``And again BalluKhan don`t take ``panga`` with the Punjabis. The ``anjam`` will be ``Nanga``. ..``

The ajaam is already there for all to see- you have already exposed yourself publically by resorting to such abuses!!

#164 by hamid_81 on August 13, 2004 3:19pm PT
I was interested in understanding what has the efforts of people like Mehdi Hasan Saheb has done in popularizing Raagdari in Pakistan. I just got a lecture on a common place information on how some folk forms of Northern Indo-PAk region follow raagdari music.

Coming back to Fuzon, the point that they are good is NOT the issue- they may be the best in PAkistan. My objections are that you are trying to exaggerate the actual impact of their `using` raagdar music to sell their records. This is just a commerical ploy to sell more records. I do not think any one singing taans or taking complex murkis or gamaks in a pop, rap con-fusion would `revive` raagdari music. It may rev up the sales by making it appear more `Desi` , `Ethnic` or target the Indian NRI market effectively. To `revive` classical music you will have to have Classical music `EMBEDDED`` in your culture and up bringing. You would have to formally introduce courses in Classical music in your schools and universities, you would have to allow Indian musicians to play in Pakistan, appear on PTV and RAdio on regular basis, you would have to allow Indian classical music societies which exist in every small town in India to organize Karnatic and Hindustani Classical music concerts. And finally you would have to ensure that people like you come out in open and protest when the mullahs stage anti -music demonstrations.

And to say that some regions sing songs in Raags like Sorath or Maand is to forget that folk and classical have both enriched each other- they are different in their intent but their musical structure may be borrowed from each other . However, most of the times it is the popular and folk music that has borrowed heavily from classical music (the ``Desi`` versus ``Margi`` distinction) - but I do not think that would `revive` classical music. None of these folk `tunes` follow the exactness and the discipline of the Classical music. In classical music every taan is an alankar, an embellishment which highlightens the beauty of the textual structure, and are structured pieces. Unfortunately many think that Taan-Alankaars are to be produced by doing ``YA YA`` with their JABADA like most of the crazed Paki-Punjabi musicians do.

Ballu Khan. Your knowledge about Pakistan lacks in a lot of things. Sindhis, have their own Raag system and they sing things like Kafis in Sorath, Des and Maandh. Big Sufi Saints of Sindh and Baluchistan have documented these Ragas and raginis. But that is a big discussion which I would prefer to have with a musician of a better caliber than you. Preferably of a better historical and cultural sense as well. Now to Fuzon. Again I am standing by what I said. They are good and that is the truth. If they are so easy to sing, then everybody would be singing them. But when youngsters try to sing the song they are stuck. That is when they ask what is there in the song that they don`t have. And then they are told that it is classical music that they lack. After all the film Industry in India played a big role in popularizing classical music in songs. Quite a few Bandishes and Ragaas were distorted and non-classical singers were asked to sing classical songs, so people would like them. The same in Pakistan. An effective technique. Because really nobody wants to Pay BalluKhan to sit there and sing painfully slow. To everybody it would be nonsense. Now somebody playing flashy taans and explaining what they are doing would make more sense. That is why we get called for concerts and artists like BalluKhan, well spend time on chowk on baseless Paki bashing. BalluKahn Sheb, your hatred for Pakistan is justified, just like my displeasure towards India is. But also try to do something constructive. I am beginning to think you are really a low-life.

I support jang in the sense that the whole classical music is on a revival. Of course we should forget about the Maharaja courts. There will be no more classical music that way. But what we should expect is Music Directors like A.R.Rehman and M.M.Kreem from India and Sajjad Ali, Fuzon and Ustad Nissar Hussain Khan from Pakistan blending in classical music in ordinary Filmi songs so that people get some understanding of these things. I think this is a positive revival. And again BalluKhan don`t take ``panga`` with the Punjabis. The ``anjam`` will be ``Nanga``. For your info listen to Adana by Ustad fateh Ali Khan and his sons. People like you just wish they could some day sing like this. So please be construtive, and utilize your time properly.

ballu and hamid you guys should collaberate on an article, preferably with some clips.

i must say that classical music (hindustani and carnatic) is on a massive revival in india,strongly suppported by all classes, and not associated with mirasis anymore.

#161 by hamid_81 on August 12, 2004 10:16am PT
Fuzon reviving classical music through fusion or Pop music? Now all this is just a passing fad- tomorrow we would suddenly have people rapping in Raags and then claiming that it would revive classical music? or we would have some rababiya from Afghanistan playing with the rock band and claiming that it would revive the interest in rabab! And what has Mehdi Hasan Saheb`s efforts done any good to our Baluchs and Pushto audiences? Can anybody tell what is the level of appreciation of classical music in those areas? Let us forget the Punjabi audiences whose obsession for fast music has already brought the downfall of classical music through its besura and be-sar-paer taanbazi.

dost-mittar, things are not so bad after all in Pakistan. Yearly Music conference takes place in Lahore. Then there is this organization in karachi, called Sapurna :
http://www.sampurna.sdnpk.org/

whihc is doing alot to promote classical music. From Qawwals to sitar nawaz`s to singers, it is promoting every form of classical and light classical music that has been dormant in Pakistan. If we don`t take baaby steps, you can`t get to the strides part. So I think it is not a lost cause. Youngsters still learn classical music, and sing and play instruments. There has been a huge revival of ``good music`` in Pakistan, with the new Pop singers and light singers, that have come up on the scene. It is easy to disregard them, but sometimes they do a good job. There is this bad called Fuzon, and the lead singer is the nephew of Ustad Amanat Ali Khan, ShafQat Amanat Ali. I have heard him sing classical khayals which he still does. But he came into the popo scene. I don`t know how to categorize it, but it is different from the dominant pop. Because he has composed all his songs in raagas. Some of his songs are named on ragaas. In an interview, he said that our youth needs to understand classical music and appreciate it. So to make them understand this divine art we need to present it in a way whihc they would be able to comprehend. Some of the taans and ``murkis`` that he does are totally beyond any singer of his cader whether a khyaliya or a Popiya. I suggest you listen to some of his songs:
1. Khamach.
2. Madhuvanti.
3. Malhar
4. Annkhon kay sagar.
Listen to these, and you will know that slowly people are getting a taste of good music back.
Slowly but surely. If you can then also get Shafqat`s new recording of Jaijaiwanti and Kedara, a khayal recording.
regards
Hamid

ballukhan:
Thanks! Now, you know how much I know:-):
BTW Gaud Malhar seemed to be a favourite of the late music director Roshan. That particular song was from the film ``Barsaat ki Raat`` but he also used it in other films.

hamid_81:
That song was from the film ``Basant Bahar``. You will probably like some other songs from that film too, esp. ``Ketaki gulab juhi champak`` by Bhimsen Joshi.

Re. the decline of classical music in Pakistan, I think my memory is longer and it is not attributable to Benazir or Sharif. For that you have to go way back. In the old Punjab, as elsewhere on the subcontinent except Maharashtra and Bengal, the patronage of classical music was limited to durbars and did not penetrate into the middle class, which made fun of classical musicians as mirasis. After the partition, the official patronage also was denied to them as Radio Pakistan stopped playing their songs, claiming that they invoked hindu gods and godesses (which they frequently did!). This is why people like Bade Ghulam Ali had to move to India for lack of support. After that, only semi-classical forms which were usable in ghazals and qawaalis survived and were well exploited by people like Mehdi Hasan and Saabri Brothers. Recently, there has been some revival of classical music (there was a conference in Karachi earlier this year) as Musharraf has decided to confront the mullahs. But it may be too late to revive an art form which remained dormant for two generations.

Dost-
I just hear a 30 sec clip of the song on the net - it has clear signs of `Gaud Malhar` of the type that uses Komal Gandhar and which is mostly sung by the Dhrupadiyas. However, the use of Shuddh Gandhara gives a feeling of Ramdasi Malhar. However, the treatment appears to be that of Gaud Malhar except that the popular version of Gaud Malhar in Khayals does not use Komal Gandhar (g).
Miya ki malhar uses the komal gandhar in this pattern
SNnDNS,MRPMPgMgMRS
Bol re papi hara -Vani Jayaram.
Ek Bus Tu hi Nahi (Shahzad`s Ghazal) sung by Mehdi Hasan,
Khushi Ne Mujh Ko Thukaraya- Ghazal sung by Akhtari Bai.

Gaud Malhar
Garajat Barasat Saavan Ayo- Some Late Song

Let me listen to the song in entirety then I can tell you the exact type of Malhar.

BalluKhan Saheb. I know there are more than 4 Kedaras, and in fact I know there names, Chalas and Some Bandishes. I also know the many Shankaras and Malhars. I know what there is to be known. And on a politer note, none of your Indian youngsters can be a match for a Ustad who has given his life for music. They are not even a match for his younger son. But you saying so, doesn`t make it so and neither does my saying so, makes it so. It is what the world believes. And it believes that Rais Khan is brilliant, no matter what the ``other`` sitartists/singers say.
Now to dost-mittar ji`s comment. I haven`t heard the song. If you tell me the name of the movie I will look it up and listen to it. In movie songs, ususally the base is either some raag or chalan of a raag, but then the composition differs slightly off, if the composer so desires. Just like the song, ``Raina Beeti Jaye``. The first part is Raag Todi but then the antara is totally not-Todi. So to say perfectly in whihc raag a song has been composed is very difficult.
Now to Bhairavi. It is extremely Popular. But that makes it a challenge to sing or play. Then people started varying it. Now we have different sort of Bhiravi`s, like Sindh Bhairavi, Sudh Bhairavi(Listen to Abdul Karim Khansaheb`s brilliant Sudh Bhairavi), Jangla Bhairavi ( Bade Ghulam Ali Khan`s Naina More Taras rahiyo, Aja Balam Pardesi). I am getting late for a meeting. But once I come back I wil write in detail about Bhairavi and its many facets. And we should also wait patiently for a reply from KhanSaheb, as whatever prevails, he knows more than I do. And that is a fact.
H

#146 by hamid_81 on August 11, 2004 6:01am PT
``............... composed ghazals in Ragas, and sang them. In every concert of his in which he sang ghazals, he elaborately discussed the raag. Thus with his efforts, classical music revived in Pakistan....``

In fact Rais Khan Saheb is no match even for the kids from SaregamaPa serial on Zee TV. Some of these kids in it are brilliant. And none of the PAki Sitarists can ever match the talented and aspiring youngsters we have in India- we have a loads of them in india.

Hamid

There are more than 4 Kedars! Now you will have to say ``please`` before I even tell you their names.

ballu, hamid:
Both of you seem to belong to the same biradari, even if different gharanas. So, why this hostility? Those of us who are classically-challenged are learning something from your jugalbandi. So, to change the tone (tune?), here is a question for either of you:

I am just coming back from an awesome oddissi dance performance by an Indian troupe with live music on flute, violin, mridingam, etc. On the way back, someone put on an old cassette with one of my favourite songs from the film Basant Bahar, ``Bhaiy bhanjana vandana sun hamari``, sung by Manna Dey. Has either of you heard this song? If so, do you know whether it is in raag Bhairavi or Kaal Bhairavi (I hope it`s either of the two)? If you know, could you please tell me the difference between the two raagas in non-musical terms, e.g., with the help of examples of popular songs based on these raagas? Thanks.

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#151 by ballukhan

BalluKhan the idiot, Mehdi Hasan has not been singing since the last 5 years because of his health. And yes I agree any randi-baaz Mirasi from Delhi taught by you can probably think he is better than rais Khan, but I don`t think that is true. I really don`t feel like having this discussion with a fail, incompetent and stupid musician, who doesn;t have a life. Start a Kabab Shop. You will end up making more money. Bu OOOPPS! I am sorry you can`t even start that. And that reminds me. You Eat Beef?

#149 by ballukhan on August 11, 2004 7:14am PT
``So he lost Madan Mohan. ``. I think Madan Mohan lost Rais Khan.
Well, somebody said `` Jahalat chupi rahe tu achi lagti hai``. I gues that is a good reason for you to justify why you are not popular. Secondly, as regards me, I am good at what I do. I play., people like me. I tour around the United States and have fun. Play, enjoy and listen to good music. I think you should cease being a ``kunway ka Maindak`` and learn about what the world is all about. You will not become a good artist by going bersek on me. You will become good by practising humility as you have said. And I don`t think you know who I have learned from.
I have learned from Ustad Sajid Hussain. Ustad Rais Khan, Ustad Asad Ali Khan(Beenkar) a true Dhurpadiya, who knows what he is talking about. Sublime and beyond anything and everything, Ustad Imrat Khan and his youngest son, Ustad Shafaatullah Khan. I am not stupid and know what I am talking about. But I just dislike you for your utter stupidity, and pig-headedness. Really man, get a life. Go sing something. Bashing Rais Khan and me will not get you anywhere. You still be obscure and a failure, which you very much are.
I pitty you, for your condition. If not you then has any student of yours been popular? Anything? Well, I think it is time in your life when you should think about doing something substantial, instead of bashing other Ustads, if not for yourself then for the art you practise.
FYI: Kedara was one of the first Raag`s taught to me and I know whihc Madham is in Kedar. Oh I am sorry, I see you forgot to mention. there are two in Kedar. LOL
H

#146 by hamid_81 on August 11, 2004 6:01am PT
``............... composed ghazals in Ragas, and sang them. In every concert of his in which he sang ghazals, he elaborately discussed the raag. Thus with his efforts, classical music revived in Pakistan....``

Now you are making stories. What do you think Mehdi Hasan Saheb has been doing since last 50 years in Pakistan. He has composed and sung Ghazals in virtually every possible raags including some rare KArnatic ones as well. In fact he was the one who used to sing sargams in midst of a Ghazals - and yet it did not much to revive classical music in Pakistan. And what about the PAkistani admirers of Akhtari Bai? So do not give this crap about Rais Khan singing Ghazals in Raags has revived classical music in Pakistan. Even an ordinary son of mirasi from old Delhi can sing better than Rais Khan! THese stupid stories of yours have been constructed just to hide that fact regarding the pathetic state of affairs in Pakistan of the classical music and musicians.

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#146 by hamid_81 on August 11, 2004 6:01am PT

From what all I can understand you are just a kid who thinks doing `dir dir` very fast on the sitar like an junkie Rock guitarist is what Indian Classical Music is all about. Pathetic!! Go and try to understand which Madhyams are used in Rag Kedar and how the madhyams of Raga Shuddha Sarang are different from that of Rag Kedar. I do not intend comparing with Rais Khan since I practice a different style and I do not need to sell my cassettes or sing in the birthday parties in order to survive. I practice music as an expressive art form rathar than as a fad or a profession. So why I am not known is something that is besides the point.
But I seriously think that you have been given the worst `Taleem`- you are `Be-KAeda`` and a ``Jahilya`` because the first leson that we learn is HUMILITY which you lack miserably.
You are arrogant and full of hatred for others and I can see that you can never learn classical Indian music in its true spirit from any teacher- you may be able to pick up some finger techniques but would remain like a pig who only knows how to move forward in one direction and would eternally do `dir dir` thinking you have mastered classical music.
The point about madan mohan episode is just that Rais Khan could not understand what the other person implied- and he did not wait for any clarification. So he lost Madan Mohan.

well, thats a good article...... but you should know one thing... Its not only what happened to muslims in Hindustan but also to hindus in Pakistan. I personally know an elder who is proud to claim that he killed more than 50 hindus during independence riots. Interesting fact is that a whole hindu muhalla in old lahore was burnt down to ashes along with its residents...

Now, I am not saying that it was muslims who were at fault. What i am saying is that things were happening at both ends. Maybe this is the meaning of war which engulfs every human being without knowing them. I remember qudrat-ullah-shahab quoting that at the time of independence everyone made its own parameters to serve the country. and so the era continues...

What important is that we should know what happened on both ends and condemn it for the humanity sake. Representing one side of picture sometimes increase the anger and hate for the other side. And most of all, though being a Pakistani i love Pakitan but find it important to live and let others live.....

I dont want to criticize you but want to get your attention to something which i found important as i always go around listening what happened to muslims and nothing else.... Facts go much different......

BalluKhan.
Now you are no better than anyone. Making small talk about a great artist. Well,Ustad Rais Khan, has sung ghazals. No disagreement there. But this is also true that every year in Karachi there is one major concert of his, with at least 50000 people in attendance. In addition, all year round his concerts are held, privately. Why did he start singing ghazals, is because during the reign of Nawaz Sharif, and Benazir, the arts were not liked. These two still thought, that music was the thing for ``Randi-Baazi``, like what used to happen all over India, during the ``daur`` of the Nawabs. Wine, music, and women. That was all they did. But that was not true. So break that assumption, he composed ghazals in Ragas, and sang them. In every concert of his in which he sang ghazals, he elaborately discussed the raag. Thus with his efforts, classical music revived in Pakistan. As I said, Pakistan is not Haven, but Ustad Rais Khan has brought around a big change. Actually a tremoundous change.
Now about the Madan Mohan songs. Have you heard, the sitar in `` Nainon Main Badra Chaye``, and in the introduction of the movie Pakeezah. If you think so high about yourself, or about the music you play, then why hasn`t anyone asked you to play anything in any movie? Why haven`t you come out with a single record? Whyaren`t you popular. Doesn`t that tell you something? That you are no match for these giants, and instead of dis-respecting them you should just shut up!! Accept the fact that you can never play the sitar like Rais Khan and can never be as famous as him. So why sweat?
Now for you ``Taleem``. Well, if I want ``Taleem`` from you I will ask you for it. As they say
``Pani Piyo Chaan kay, Guru banaye jaan kay``. I don`t think you are worthy of teaching me anything.
I heard Pandit Ravi Shankar the other day. I don`t know what that dude plays. His pieces are all composed, 3-4 minutes pieces. Well, if you hear a recording, it makes sense. Now, there was no alaap, he increased the tempo in the 3rd Avardi, and went into Jhala, in the next 5 minutes. No Taans, just high paced confusion. His daughter is worst than him. And I was checking out her website, I saw her and her half-sister Nora Jones picture with a tatoo on their bum. LOL. Since when did the daughters of ``respected`` Pandits started showing their bums?

Stuka

I fully endorse the thesis that Pakistani muslims and the Hindutvadis share the same agenda. One wants to see India engulfed in communal riots just to repudiate his TNT roots, the other wants to push the logic of TNT to its extreme conclusions of ethnic cleansing of Indian territory. Both are one and the same. So when Hamid wants to watch the fun of muslim holocaust over the TV he is wishing that his TNT roots be proved- so that his nebulous national identity which is at great peril in the 21st century gets reasserted . In the same way, the Hinduvadis would also love to watch the muslim holocaust so that they can assert that India is a Hindu counterpart of Pakistan- i.e TNT in reverse.
So, for me both these guys are to be treated with same contempt and derision. I know we can take care of the Hinduvadis in India because democracy has ensured that the votes of IMs always count and their interests are taken care of. I am more wary of these Paki TNT idiots like Hamid who are ready to become suicidal Jehadis and militarize the conflicts which can be peacefully resolved in India through democratic means. The fact remains that it is in the interests of the Hinduvadis that the riots and counter riots occur so that the polarization and consolidation of the hindu votes is complete. So, it is clear that these TNT idiots like Hamid or UrsTruly remain the clear and present danger for the IMs.

Plats8

This is an interesting anecdote about Rais Khan:

http://www.indianmelody.com/mmohanarticle1.htm

``My father was so fond of Rais Khan that when there was a musical soiree at our home, he would invite Rais Khan to play the sitar. My father was too embarrassed to discuss money with his friend, so he told his manager to ask Rais Khan what kind of money he should be paid. Rais Khan took tremendous umbrage. A few days later, he called up my father and said there`s a wedding at a friend`s house and would my father like to sing there. If yes, how much money would he charge?

My father was very, very hurt. He decided that Rais Khan would never again play in his songs. From that day onwards, in 1972 to the day he died, the sitar disappeared from Madan Mohan`s tunes. ``

P.S- Yes, Mohammad Khan was a Beenkar.

Hamid_81,

``Millinos of people, even spies of Ravi Shankar and other stupid people, come and
listen to him. His techniques and baaj is beayond everybody.``

Now that requires a good LOL. Just curious how many spies Ravi Shankar has in his
payroll. Perhaps he is outsourcing the espionage to other disgruntled sitar players....
man, this is beyond juvenile.

Ballukhan #136,

What did Mohammad Khan play ? Veena ? I always thought he was a sitar player as
well, and of the Imdad-khani gharana to boot.

By the way, can someone please tell me how many innocent Kashmiri civilians
the Indian government has killed ? I keep seeing all sorts of numbers - it used to
hover around 70,000 for a while; now Urstruly claims 80,000 and malik99 100,000 on
the same day. Clearly, both cannot be true, and some bean-counter must be keeping
tabs. Before we start acting virtuous, let us get the numbers right.

Stuka,
You may be able give me a small help for one of my friends. Are you prem vohra of Sulekha?

stuka # 112 - here is your reasoning why I should not talk about the plight of muslims in India - ``You are Pakistani.``

actually, that is all the more reason for me to talk about it. Pakistan, by a stroke of fortune or misfortune, shares a border with India. Whatever happens on the eastern border has an impact on our senses and sensitivities. Treatment of Indian Muslims is not an ``internal affair``. Besides the brotherly love we feel for them, there is also these international human rights treaties that India is subject to (as selectively as they are enforced). The ``secular`` India cannot hide the blood on its hand of 100,000 muslim kashmiris, several thousand sikhs, Asaamese, and other minorities.

These are FACTS. And the only way Indians seem to deal with these facts is by mud slinging or by doing cut / paste of lengthy articles bashing Pakistan.

Stuka, its time that people like you accept that this evil exists in India. It needs to be exorcized.

Now before you get into the diatribe of ``what about minorities in Pakistan``, I just want to remind you again that this board is in regards to the treatment of Muslims in India. There can be another board to talk about the injustices in pakistan.

Thanks Chulbuliimli. Well, for starters you have mentioned all these problems in Pakistan and I agree with these problems. I have written about these problems. But the thing is I also realize that being a muslim I am part of a Global nation of people called Muslims and their plight is my plight. Now, the whole intention of this story, was just that I felt like writing about something and I wrote about it. As a writer I don`t have to offer solutions. I can very well be a mullah if I have to. And I can offer solutions like, do Jihad against Hindus, destroy India. But these are childish and absurd. Now, I took a different approach. I just wrote what I felt and thought about. You don`t like it you have every right to say so, but in a civil manner. When people start cursing and saying things like ``Thoo``, please don`t expect me to sit tight and not loose my cool. However my upbringing has been in a good Muslims family so I had the guts to apologize for my usage of language. Other just show what there background is. But back to the main topic of my discussion. As, a writer I will write about what I feel. Nobody can deny what I have written about. It happens. Now, if I would have given a solution that would be meddling into Indian affairs, and that is not my territory. As it is not any Indian`s territory to tell us what to do. Simple.
If I would have would written about the same thing in Pakistan, everybody would be happy. But I wrote about Human Rights violation in India, whey did people get mad? Because I touched a sore issue, which hurts because it is true? Well, too bad. Because people world-wide will talk about this. It is open for discussion for everyone. So I don`t understand what the problem, is. There is rascism in India against Muslims, just like there is rascism in Pakistan against non-Muslims. So I am not denying it. But, rest assured I will write more in such touchy issues. If feel like it, there is no stopping me. I am free to write and think what I feel like.
Well, now to your question as to what I am doing in USA. Well, right now working. Just graduated. I never said that Pakistan is a safe Haven for everyone. If you read my first article, The RiverBank, you will understand why I came here. I don`t have anything more to say about this. But, look at my story for content and structure. What I have written is true. It happens. End of it. I don`t go further to say what should be done to curb it or what is the Indian policy. Not my job. So, hey, don`t take it and distort it.
H

HERE ARE FURTHER RECOMENDATIONS TO THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA WITH REGARDS TO THE TRAJEDY IN GUJRAT. THESE RECOMMENDATIONS HAVE BEEN COMPILED BY THE INTERNATIONAL ORGANISTAION OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH:

To the Government of India:

The government of India should ensure that the government of Gujarat investigates and prosecutes perpetrators of violence and where necessary, cooperates with external agencies such as the CBI in doing so. The government should also take appropriate measures to ensure the security and safety of all citizens of Gujarat, including assistance to those who have been displaced or dispossessed by the violence. In addition, Human Rights Watch recommends that:

Repeal the Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA), which stands in violation of international due process norms. The Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance (POTO), that preceded POTA, has been discriminatorily applied against Muslims in the state of Gujarat and elsewhere.

· Establish state branches of the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC), the National Commission for Minorities (NCM), and the National Commission for Women (NCW) in Gujarat, with adequate financial resources and powers to initiate prosecution where appropriate. The 1993 Protection of Human Rights Act should also be amended so that the NHRC is not excluded from inquiring into matters already pending before state commissions.

· Implement recommendations on police reform made by the National Police Commission in 1980.

· End impunity for past campaigns of violence against minorities. That is, prosecute and punish those found responsible for serious offenses during the anti-Sikh violence in Delhi in 1984 and the post-Ayodhya violence of December 1992 and January 1993. The recommendations of the Srikrishna Commission on the post-Ayodhya violence in Bombay should be implemented without delay. Police responsible for excessive use of force should be prosecuted; those who having the power and duty to stop the violence but did not intervene should be punished accordingly.

· Request and encourage United Nations relief agencies, including the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), the United Nations Children Fund (UNICEF), the World Food Programme (WFP), the World Health Organization (WHO), and the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), as well as international humanitarian organizations to provide relief and rehabilitation assistance to all those displaced and dispossessed by the communal violence, without discrimination.

· Provide U.N., international humanitarian organizations, and local nongovernmental relief agencies full, free, and unimpeded access to all those displaced and dispossessed by the communal violence.

· United Nations human rights bodies and experts should be invited and encouraged to visit India:

· The Working Group on Arbitrary Detention.
· The special rapporteur on torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.
· The special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary and arbitrary executions.
· The special rapporteur on violence against women.
· The special rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance.
· The Special Representative of the United Nations secretary-general on internally displaced persons.
· Include information on the recent communal violence in India`s future periodic reports to human rights treaty bodies established for the:

· International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (submission due August 8, 2002)
· International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (overdue as of December 31, 2001).

---

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/india/India0402-01.htm#P195_30463

Thanks Bong Dongs! It cetainly increased my knowledge. Well, atleast now we know that steps have been carried to prevent and counter such trajedies.

#132 by dost-mittar

“This is not my favourite subject and this will be my last post on this topic.”

I respect that.

I read that dailytimes article and could only laugh at the writer. Balochistan is a tribal society and if there were 20% Hindu in 1947, then that had to be the largest tribe in Balochistan. One of the biggest tribe in Balochistan, Bugti; is not 20% of the Balochistan population. Going by Balochistan population in 1947, we are talking about a million people and I doubt that they disappeared within a few years without any trace. Further, if you research this little bit you will find that there never were many Hindu in India or in Pakistan of Baloch ancestry. Hindus in Balochistan were all of Sindhi origin.
Almost all Baloch trace their ancestry from Kurds in Iran and Iraq.
However, I don’t know much of that is true. If there were any conversions, they must have happened couple of hundred years ago.

foad_shah,

This is not to say all that can be done is being done, but though the efforts of people like Teesta Seetalvad of ``Communalism Combat`` and the supreme court of India some of these things have taken place. Just to keep you up to date:

---

- The government should act without delay to implement the recommendations of the NHRC on the violence in Gujarat including that:
- The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) take over investigations of certain critical incidents in Gujarat, including the attacks in Godhra, Naroda Patia, and Gulmarg Society.

---

Response:
NHRC recommendation of handing cases over to CBI has been implemented, several high profile cases such as the Bilkis Bano, Best Bakery and Naroda Patiya are being investigated by CBI.

---

· The chief justice of the High Court of Gujarat establish courts expressly to try the cases investigated by the CBI.

---

Response:
Unfortunately Gujarat judiciary seems to have no interest in doing justice. Under supreme court orders the Bilkis Bano and Best Bakery cases have been shifted to Maharashtra. A further 20 odd riot related cases are pending before the Gujarat high court, lets see what happens with them.

---

· The government set up police desks in temporary camps, to receive and record complaints, and forward them to police stations having jurisdiction.

---

Response:
This was done at the refugee camps.

---

· Turn over investigations implicating state and police officials to external agencies such as the CBI. Ensure that these investigations address the conduct of state officials, including police and Bharatiya Janata Party leaders, who incited, took part in, or were complicit in the attacks...Police found to have violated their duties should be dismissed and prosecuted where appropriate.

---

Response:
6 policemen are being prosecuted in the Bilkis Bano case. In Naroda Patia case a prominent Bajrang Dal leader has been charge sheeted, but as always in these cases I am no too optimistic about politicians being convicted.

---

· Collect and preserve forensic evidence for use in the identification of the dead and to support criminal prosecutions.

---

Response:
CBI has carried out substantial forensic investigations to generate supporting evidence in the cases it is investigating.

---

· Members of the media and media organizations responsible for the incitement of specific acts of violence should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

---

Response:
I am not aware of any efforts in this direction. Some news reports indicate that ``Gujarat Samachar`` should be the prime target for such investigation. I dont know if it is possible under current laws.

---

· Take decisive steps to ensure that police use deadly force only as a last resort to protect life. Police agents should act in accordance with international standards on use of force...

---

Response:
This is a issue bigger than just Gujarat. Note the recent Manipur incident involving the Assam Rifles.

---

· Launch public awareness campaigns in Gujarat and other states aimed at preventing future communal violence. ..

---

Response:
These are issues bigger than just the riots, I dont know what we can do. Polarization of Gujarati society seems to be total and irreversable in the near future.


On other issues anybody who knows better please add.

``Now balluKhan. I think you are an insecure failure......``

It is time for me to do some LOL-s kid! I pity Rais Khan for being reduced to a gali ka K in Pakistan. He deserves much more- but he did not have the patience to hold on to his arrogance. He despised everyone including Vilayat Khan and you are learning just the wrong things from him including his Khushti with the Daand. You deny the fact as to why he sings Ghazals in Pakistan whereas he palys Sitar in India or USA. LEt us face the reality that it is now even more difficult to practice Classical Music which does not have sanction from the Paki Ulemas. So Rais Khan has to run to USA to play Sitar and all those lovely Hindustani Raags ( What is the meaning of ``Hindustani Raag``? Hint- Read the first 5 letters!)

You are a kid before me because I have learnt Dhrupad and Khayal even before you were born ???????? So let me know whether you have figured out how to play the mizrab bols in sapat taans in the first lesson I taught you.
And I am an expert in an instrument which Rais Khan`s father used to play mainly?? (try to figure out)

Asalamoalaiqum,

It is a pity that instead of finding solutions and providing recommendations to solve the crisis of minorities being persecuted in both countries, interactors have indulged in filth and hate speeches.

No one is saying that non-Muslims are better off in India or Muslims are better off in Pakistan. But, this can not make one negate the atrocites. the pics and quite revealing articles posted by Foad_Shah are quite eye opening and so is the pic provided by Kaurasuch . So, now we know that unfortunately such injustices are being undoubtly carried out. The question is what to do about it?

I , as a resident of Karachi, Pakistan, from my own experience has seen a Hindu Head Girl in my college days, ( she was elected by the majority Muslim students). She wasa n intelligent girl and is currently doing her M.B.B.S in Pakistan only.

In Law school, we had a few other Hindu`s in our university all of whom were popular, intelligent and respected by teachers.

Some of the top models in Pakistan are also Hindu for eg. Sunita Marshall and Mohini.

In the Club i go to, there are various Hindu members and who are quite at ease with interacting with Muslims and vice versa. And , most of them are quite successful business men.

Atleast in Karachi, furthermore, i know that Christians hold a lot of respect. Majority of Karachite`s describe Christians as sweet and down to earth people. A few of my own teachers were Christians and Parsees and highly respected too.

But this does not mean that atrocites against non-Muslims have not been carried out in Pakistan. I , as a Pakistani Muslim admit this and it pains me that some Muslims are so blind to not realise what they have been doing.

This goes on to indicate that if atrocites have been carried out against non-Muslims, then it has taken place in poor , undeveloped areas , where a majority of illiterate people reside who rely on fatwas from hypocrite Mullahs solely.

These people have not given the correct knowledge regarding the treatment of non-Muslims in Islam. They have not been told that the injunctions of the Qur`an enjoin affection and kindness to the good and peace-loving peoples of every religion, as well as the verses which permit marriage to the women of the People of the Book, with all that Allah says concerning marriage—``and He has put love and mercy between you`` (30:21)—and the verse concerning the Christians: ...And thou wilt find those who say, `Surely we are Christians.` to be nearest to them (the Muslims) in affection....(5:85 (82))

It has not been explained to them by their elders and scholors that the Arabic word for peace is salaam—a word included in the Arabic/Muslim greetings. Islam is Arabic for surrender or submission. Muslim means one who submits. For many non-Muslims, the word Muslim is synonymous with angry mobs and suicidal bombers. Such stereotyping of Muslims is patently wrong. Most Muslims are ordinary, peace-loving people with their own set of dreams and problems and should be treated with the same respect we give to any other fellow human being.


According to a famous religios scholor:
``For the record, let me say that Jesus Christ taught his followers to ``love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.`` (Injil, Matthew 5:44 NKJV). Notwithstanding Jesus’s clear teaching and example, over the centuries, much violence and evil has been committed by those who call themselves ``Christians``. Just as there are many who call themselves Muslims who do not live according to the teachings of Muhammad, it is safe to say that many who call themselves ``Christians`` do not live according to the teachings of Christ``.

So, the Muslims who do not treat others, kindly and justly can not also be truly classifies as ``MUSLIMS>``

They have not been told that Muslims are allowed to have non-Muslims as friends as long as they keep their own faith and commitment to Islam pure and strong. A Muslim man is also allowed to marry a Jewish or Christian woman. It is obvious that one marries someone for love and friendship. If friendship between Muslims and Jews or Christians was forbidden, then why would Islam allow a Muslim man to marry a Jew or Christian woman? It is the duty of Muslims to patronize Muslims. They should not patronize any one who is against their faith or who fights their faith, even if they were their fathers and brothers. Allah says, ``O you who believe! Take not for protectors (awliya`) your fathers and your brothers if they love unbelief above faith. If any of you do so, they are indeed wrong-doers.`` (al-Tawbah 9:23) In a similar way the Qur`an also tells Muslims that they should never patronize the non-Muslims against other Muslims. However, if some Muslims do wrong to some non-Muslims, it is Muslims duty to help the non-Muslims and save them from the oppression of the so-called Muslims. The Prophet -peace be upon him- said that he himself will be the plaintiff of a Dhimmi living among Muslims to whom injustice is done by Muslims. But Islam also teaches that Muslims should not seek the patronage of non- Muslims against other Muslims. They should try to solve their problems among themselves. Allah says, ``Let not the Believers take the unbelievers as their patrons over against the Believers… (Al `Imran 3:28) ``O you who believe! Take not for patrons unbelievers rather than Believers. Do you wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?`` (al-Nisa` 4:144)

They have not been told Non-Muslims in an Islamic state do posses special rights irrespective of the fact that they are minorities or majorities. Under any circumstances it is not permissible to burn holy places of non-Muslims or books or to abuse them, by Muslim individuals, groups or government agencies. However, non-Muslims are not allowed to abuse any Prophet, to be little or insult Islamic laws. In case a non-Muslim insults Prophet Muhammad, he shall be tried in the court under blasphemy laws.

The Pakistani government, though still has a long way to go is gradually implementing more and more laws for the protection of non-Muslims.In January, Pakistan`s government ended an electoral system that discriminated against religious minorities by compelling them to vote for just 10 non-Muslim seats in the overwhelmingly Muslim Parliament. Experts believe that the decision to scrap the old system could pave the way towards establishing a secular political culture in the country.

Even though despite the introduction of the new joint electorate system, recent attacks against non-Muslims in Islamabad, may explain why not a single non-Muslim is contesting some 272 general seats of the national legislature. However, some 50 Hindu and Christian candidates were running for office on general seats in the provincial legislatures of the southern Sindh and eastern Punjab province.

In conclusion i just want to point out that the author, should not indulge in foul language or name calling and try to prove his points with research and analysis. And lastly, and most importantly , let us set an example on chowk. Let all non-Muslims and Muslims ensue open dialogue and try to find solutions and try to be friends and not enemies. Let us for once be sincere.

Kind regards.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

THE ONLY WAY TO RESOLVE THE ISSUE OF PERSECUTION OF MINORITIES IN INDIA AND PAKISTAN IS TO START WITH OUR SELVES. WE, SHOULD, FIRSTLY, GIVE THE MINORITIES THE RESPECT THE DESERVE AND GO AGAINST THE FUNDAMENTALIST PARTIES WHO SPREAD MALICE AGAINST THE MINORITIES. iF THE MAJORITY IN THE RESPECTED COUNTRIES, DO NOT LEARN TO RESPECT AND GIVE EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES TO MINORITIES IN ALL SECTORS OF LIFE, THE PROBLEM WILL REMAIN UNSOLVED.

HERE ARE SOME RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE STATE GOVERNMENT OF GUJRATBY WORKERS OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH:

Improve security in violence-affected areas and relief camps by increasing the number of police officers-including officers from minority communities-and the number of outposts where needed. Where necessary, army units should continue to be deployed to keep the peace.

· Suspend all police officers implicated in the attacks, pending investigation.
· The government should act without delay to implement the recommendations of the NHRC on the violence in Gujarat including that:

. The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) take over investigations of certain critical incidents in Gujarat, including the attacks in Godhra, Naroda Patia, and Gulmarg Society.

. · The chief justice of the High Court of Gujarat establish courts expressly to try the cases investigated by the CBI.

. · The government set up police desks in temporary camps, to receive and record complaints, and forward them to police stations having jurisdiction.


. · Turn over investigations implicating state and police officials to external agencies such as the CBI. Ensure that these investigations address the conduct of state officials, including police and Bharatiya Janata Party leaders, who incited, took part in, or were complicit in the attacks. The investigations should also focus on:


· Instances in which government documents noting the religious affiliation of persons were given to groups responsible for inciting violence or conducting abuses.

· Malfeasance in investigating and arresting leaders involved in attacks.

· Excessive use of police force, including executions of Muslims.

· The arbitrary detention and filing of false charges against Muslims.


· Ensure that state police register and investigate all cases of communal violence regardless of the religious background of the victim. Police posts should be set up in relief camps expressly for this purpose. The national government and government of Gujarat should establish civilian review boards or civilian ombudsman committees composed of judges and lawyers to examine whether cases are being adequately investigated. Police found to have violated their duties should be dismissed and prosecuted where appropriate.

· Collect and preserve forensic evidence for use in the identification of the dead and to support criminal prosecutions.

· Members of the media and media organizations responsible for the incitement of specific acts of violence should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

· Take decisive steps to ensure that police use deadly force only as a last resort to protect life. Police agents should act in accordance with international standards on use of force. The U.N. Basic Principles on the Use of Force or Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials emphasize that the use of force and firearms should be in consonance with respect for human rights and that deadly force should not be used against persons unless ``strictly unavoidable in order to protect life.``

· Launch public awareness campaigns in Gujarat and other states aimed at preventing future communal violence. This campaign should reaffirm legal provisions, explain what recourses are available to minorities, and publicize the procedures for filing a First Information Report (FIR). This campaign should also include public service announcements aimed at educating the population through efforts to raise awareness of minority rights and condemnation of religious violence and extremism.

· Implement state and federal relief packages for victims of communal violence-including disbursement of compensation for family members of victims killed in the violence, the reconstruction of homes and places of business, and the provision of food rations and other relief supplies for all persons displaced or dispossessed by the communal violence in a nondiscriminatory manner and in accordance with international human rights law and the U.N. Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement.

· Restore without delay all documents necessary for the enjoyment and exercise of legal rights that were lost or destroyed in the course of the communal violence. These include passports, personal identification documents, and birth, marriage, and education certificates.

stuka#126:
``I completely disagree Dost Mittar.``
I wonder if you understood me. Stating a reality does not mean agreement or support of it; if I say that Bush`s attack on Iraq had a widespread support, it does not mean that I supported it either.
``I find this blackmail of Indian Muslims repulsive, be it used to defend the Kashmir cause or to talk about Pakistan treating its minorities the way they want to.``
I think that you have known my views long enough to know that so do I. But denying that this is increasingly the reality of India today (it wasn`t always so!) is burying one`s head in the sand, as anyone glancing through sulekha.com`s newshopper would know.

HP#129:
This is not my favourite subject and this will be my last post on this topic.
My guess is that the buddies you grew up with were middle class hindus. A sindhi friend of mine from Bombay married off his sister to one such Pakistani back in the 70s. The hindus that suffer the most are the bheels, kolis and other low-caste sindhis. They suffer from the triple whammy of discrimination by upper-caste hindus, opression of rapacious vaderas and the police suspicious of them because of their close proximity to the Indian border.

I too had the same impression about Balochistan until I read a report in The Friday Times of March 23-29. The following is an excerpt:
``In Balochistan, Hindus were 22 percent of the population in 1941; today they are only 1.6 percent, according to the 1998 census report, which may be 27,000 Hindus in all. After 1947, their exodus from the Pakhtun areas of Balochistan was considerable while they tended to stay in the Baloch areas. The exodus was the characteristic of the entire population of Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan. There was a tendency among the lower caste Hindus not to migrate. The pattern of settlement today is such that Sindhi-speaking Hindus live in the Baloch areas bordering Sindh while further West near Quetta and the region called Jhalawan the Seraiki-speaking Hindus call themselves Punjabi.

Hindus in Balochistan: The latest facts about the Hindu community in Balochistan have come to light in a report by Minority Rights Commission of Pakistan titled Religious Tolerance in Balochistan: Myth and Reality (2003) by Akram Mirani. The Commission sent a team to the province, which observed the Hindus of Kalat, Mastung, Machh and Kolpur and discovered that the Baloch and Brahui tribes kept them to do jobs (musicians, carpenters, merchants) considered below their honour by the Muslims. The author noted that Hindus were visible in Baloch areas but were scarce in the Pakhtun areas although in 1941 most of the 54,000 Hindus of Balochistan lived in the Pakhtun areas. After 1947, the Hindus in the Pakhtun areas declined by 93 percent but only by 11 percent in the Baloch areas.``

It took 25 years for Indian government to start processing (not actually paying compensation) the claims of unfortunate victims of Bhopal industrial disaster. Thousands perished meanwhile hoping to see a better day in their life coughing blood and vomiting their inards out. The interesting thing is that Union Carbide paid the agreed compensation of 450+ million dollars to Indian government some 20 odd years ago. Where is the interest on that 440 million dollars accumulated over 20 years - nobody knows, nobody asks. And we are supposed to beleive that this government is compassionate towards a hated minority? Is this government supposed to protect its minority? One has to live in cukkooland to have such a supposition. Is there a wonder, 80,000+ Kashmiris have been murdered in cold blood and copuntless women and children raped by its army and no one in the country dares ask, why? Should Muslim minority trust this government? If Babri Masjid Massacre and Gujrat Genocide are not enough to open their eyes then what is? Therefore, it makes more of a compelling case, for Indian Muslims to arm themselves for the coming armagadon - the next mahabharat - the next ram lila that is bound to be written with Muslim blood. I would appeal to the good conscience of all compassionate Hindus (if such an animal exists) to help their Muslim fellow human beings to arm themselves. The writ of Indian government to protect Muslims has failed not once but it has failed every day of every year for the past 57 years. It is in Indian government`s own interest to have a safe and protected minority. A well armed, well trained Muslim citizen who is confident of the safety of his family is the best protection India will have to save itself from disintegration. The only thing that is keeping India intact is the inherent politics of anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistan hatered. Keep in mind that negetive politics can go only so far only for so long.

Hamid_81,
I am tempted to call you an idiot as well since you believe in equality but I’ll let it go this time.
But dear boy, lame excuses/explanations do not make an effective argument.
You haven’t answered yet as to what you are doing abroad if your country is such a secure haven.
Nobody is denying Gujarat. It happened and might happen again.
The point is you are not expressing your pain and anger and sympathy at your hapless prosecuted Muslim brethren here; you are being vitriolic.
Believe me Indian Muslims prefer to be prosecuted here in India than in Pakistan by their own on being muhajirs, Shias, Qadiyanis, non-Muslims etc., etc.
A writer’s responsibility is not just to write about facts but also offer solutions. His work should function as a soothing balm.
Your story brings back painful memories, yes but it also evokes repulsion.
That’s not what you are supposed to do. Next time try to assuage hurt feelings and not stoke them.
You are forgiven this time for you are still a kid, after all.
Perhaps you have some personal grievances to settle having lost a dear one in communal riots here; that would explain your extreme feelings.
Its not to say, Indian Muslims, whether or not they have suffered a loss, lack spine.
The feelings of anger, frustration, rebellion, and revenge do overcome them too; but they are only exercising restrain. That by no means should be misconstrued as cowardice for remember, God is with those who are patient.
Take care.

dost-mittar Sahib,
I admire you for realizing that Pakistan and India are two different countries and nobody should use one criterion to judge both countries. That is what I have been trying to say for sometime but people just won’t give up their preconceived notions of pride and accept that born out of one, both countries have taken different paths of development, sibling rivalry notwithstanding, both will continue to traverse a different path. With the passage of time differences would overwhelm similarities.

Pakistan’s problems and issues are entirely different than Indian problems. Most Pakistanis have not grown up with neighbors of different religions and different cultures attempting to survive in tough economic environments that are common to both countries. Fortunately, I grow up in an area where Hindus were my buddies. I learned to understand that it is not a major issue, if my Hindu friends support Indian cricket team.
With that in mind, I also know that barring some Mullah shouting in the mosques in cities in Sindh, Hindus are a vibrant community. I also know with mullah, bigotry is on the rise in Pakistan and I am not as in touch with the daily life as I used to be in my younger days.

However, your stats don’t match the logical test. Your 20-22% looks good if you take former East Pakistan into the picture.
With a huge population shift between 1947 and 51, the numbers changed more drastically then you can even think of.
Hindus were about 20% of Sindh Population in 1947. Sindh accepted about 2 to 3 million refugees in 1947 and that changed the population numbers as now Hindu percentages were reduced by incoming Muslims. A good portion of Hindu left Sindh (what a tragedy!) from 1948 to 1951. So the base numbers to compare Hindu population should be 1951 census and not 1947 numbers as they were too fluid statistically.
I think if you look at numbers from 1951 onwards there is no significant change of Hindu Population in Sindh or in the current Pakistan, percentage wise. Again you also need to consider population growth rate that is much higher in Muslims families than in Hindu families.
I will try to get all the numbers for you but if you look at the whole situation and research it yourself you will get to the bottom of it.
I am not going to bring in Punjab as both Punjabs pretty much were cleared out of competing religions within a few months of partition.

Balochistan never had 20% Hindu population. Most of the Hindus were in areas near Sindh around Jacobabad. Hindus still own significant number of retail stores and businesses in that area.

#124 by stuka
AlephNull was going to get a tongue lashing of his life for his Incontrovertibly weird post, but you floored me. I just had an extra shot for you. If I change my style, I will not be me.
Still-
#116 by AlephNull
“Incontrovertible facts that show that people of any religious or ethnic background not only survive but also thrive in India”

I am going to ignore your weird sarcasm and ask you to present economic and social indice from India to support your claim. Quoting Azim Premji is not an “incontrovertible” (what a tongue twister!) evidence.

Just read the article - a fictional story. So whats the fuss about? Hamid M obviously has a different perception of India than Indians, thats his reality and he is welcome to it - let him write. And he has written some good stuff in the past that was appreciated by Chowkies across the divide. Which is why some of the hate that comes across in his interacts was a bit surprising. Obviously anything we say can and will be used against us. Life goes on....

``This is why I said in my earlier post that the best thing Pakistanis can do for IMs is to improve their own record of treating any minorities``

I completely disagree Dost Mittar. Pakistan can ethnically cleanse their country of minorities. It should have no effect on the way we view fellow Indians. I find this blackmail of Indian Muslims repulsive, be it used to defend the Kashmir cause or to talk about Pakistan treating its minorities the way they want to.

Pakistan is a soveriegn nation and can do what it wants. However, it will get a bloody nose and more if it tries to dictate policy to us about our internal affairs. As far as the Hindu-Muslim issue inside India is concerned, Pakistanis have the freedom to comment but should not expect us to take them seriously on the moral ramifications. They obviously have no locus standi on the legal issues.

HP:
I think that India and Pakistan have different concepts of nationhood, which makes them view their respective minorities differently. This is as it should be: a country that swears by secularism cannot use the same benchmark for its behaviour towards its minorities as does one which openly calls itself islamic with parallel sharia courts. So, muslim Indians and the Indian and international human rights organizations have every right to haul Indians over the coals for not living up to their constitutional guarantees.
However, the picture changes when Pakistanis take up the case of Indian muslims, especially when they start comparing Indian record unfavourably with their own. The last thing Indian muslims need is to use Pakistan as a role model for treating minorities, esp. hindus, since it invites counter arguments even from people like me. As you are well aware, the population of muslims in India has gone up from around 30 million after partition to around 140 million today, growing even faster than the overall Indian population. While statistics on the Pakistani side are sketchy, I have recently read some Pakistani columnist use official statistics to point out that the proportion of Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan after the partition in areas now forming Pakistan was about 20-25% in Sindh and Balochistan and a much smaller proportion in Panjab. Their proportion is nowhere near that now; I am not even sure if their numbers have gone up at all in absoute terms over the last 55 years.
Until recently, these divergent trends did not matter. However, with the rise of the communal hindu political forces, there are born again tnt-ites in India today. Pakistanis complaining about muslims in India truly play into the hands of these elements. This is why I said in my earlier post that the best thing Pakistanis can do for IMs is to improve their own record of treating any minorities. Saying that you dont have any anti-hindu riots is not good enough - we don`t want to have a case of `na mareez rahe na marz`.

``I notice that HPs club is growing. ``


Rahul

I don`t know what you mean by that. HP`s views would be considered heretical amongst the Pakistani establishment. I think people may disagree with HP`s style or modus operandi and they are confusing that with his actual opinions. I have no problem discussing openly India`s problems with HP because this guy is a man of integrity and will discuss for the sake of enhancing dialogue and discussion and not to score cheap shots. I don`t agree with his style but that is very different from the content of his opinions.

Halur:

Well then don`t expect to be taken seriously by Non-Muslims, as simple as that. I suspect however that you are Indian.

Many posters miss the central fact that Pakistan is an islamic state , specifically a homeland for Indian Muslims (It is another matter that the majority of `indian` muslims live in bangladesh and india). So for a pakistani it is perfectly fair to be *only* concerned about oppression of muslims and at best be indiifferent and at worst endorse oppression of religious minorities in pakistani. the hudood lawa are a fine example. Pakistanis can and will not be apologetic about such laws, the blatant persecution of christians in pakistan, while point to every viloation of secularism in india.

There is and will never be symmetry in the dialog between indians and pakistanis. we are coming at this from diametically opposite welt-anshaungs. Pakistanis can have their cake and eat it too. indians better get used it.

Just to put things in perspective,let me mention that Censor Board has banned Rakesh Sharma`s documentary ``Final Solution`` and we should be talking about this,rather than fighting with these deluded people.We have our share of problems.We need to raise voice against this censorship and there is an online petition too against it.(I personally dont care about them,but if someone wishes to sign it some googling will take you to it) I dont know why it was banned and I want to find out.

malik,HP I really cant add much to what Stuka has said but why is your International Biradarbazi so selective and myopic? This guy makes wrong generalizations like Hindus are out to kill Muslims and you guys talk about constructive discussion.I would not mind having a discussion with even a paki but when all this guy can do is to do kiddish LOLs and go hide somewhere then what kind of discussion do you suppose we can have? This is why we are forced to talk in the language that he understands and forced to mention Godhra as the cause of Ahmedabad. A sane person would realize that Godhra and Gujarat does not happen everyday and everywhere in India. There is an IM who has writtten an article about Kakori , if you would have read that. There are IMs who are interacting here,but no,all that is being done here is pseudo biradarbazi and naarebazi that we should arm Imdian Muslims. The irony is that the IM is supposed to be apologetic about such asinine stupidity and Hindus like gujjubania would post long diatribes against Indian muslims. Such stupidity and generalizations do tend to radicalize even sensible people.
And becoz of this some people tend to act surprisingly .There is an article condemning Bush but along with that condemning Democracry.The guy says that Dictatorship is ok and some kind of oppression is necessary to run the country. As if there are not enough sticks to beat Bush with. In the spate of international brotherhood urstruly says mashallah subhanallah to that article and then cries about how the army is opressing people in pakistan.This is amazing logic. Please get out of your international brotherhood syndrome and realize that there are not enough jihads to be fought as you want to.Then we will have a constructive discussion.

ana #45 Thanks for replying and Sorry for replying late.I notice that HPs club is growing.
Regarding your reply your point a) is really insightful.And you are right, we should not take this silently.Though usually these people are way over the top and not prone to any reason.
But what I meant as ``provoking strongest feelings`` was when we become so blind in hatred that we characterize a group of people in that hatred.The only reason I posted on this board was your sentence that ``What will this make us pakis look like?`` This is what I am afraid of. For me, I refuse to belive that every paki would think like hamid,unless and until I personally interact with each and every one of them. And chowk is certianly not representative of either India or Pakistan.And this is exactly what I meant when I said these people are irrelevant, they are so deluded that you should not make your opinion about an average paki based on them.
Otherwise,I doubt if anybody here is up for a serious debate and that is the reason I kept away.

Kaurasach

What makes you think that the people who could not forget the face of a terrified Muslim will give even a second glance at a bleeding and terrified Hindu? You think Hamid81 and his ilk consider non Muslims as humans?

Just read the article and the ensuing discussion. The author is not the non-interacting type, for a change; his numerous interacts seem quite revealing of his worldview. People have observed that the quality of writing doesn’t have much to recommend it. The rawness and lack of artifice may be appropriate in this case. In a symbolic sense (ignoring details like the distance from UP to Gujarat and the incubation period of HIV) something on the lines of the story in the article could very well have happened, not once but many times. The author and people who agree with him might want to ask themselves whether being considered parasites, traitors in their own land, living in the fear of death, is indeed the only reality, or the dominant reality, that Indian Muslims face. Incontrovertible facts that show that people of any religious or ethnic background not only survive but also thrive in India, may be what drive people like the author over the edge into paroxysms of fury at being betrayed by reality.

But at any rate none of us will be able to confront and defeat either flesh-and-blood demons or the ones in our minds unless we are allowed to openly express our rage, terror, hatred and desperation. I don’t think Chowk betrayed its stated purpose when it allowed this article to be published. I do hope that all interacts on this article, excepting those that are content-free abuse and nothing else, will be preserved intact.

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HP #98,

``The point in my post was that writing about Gujarat should not be a cause
of yanking an article as your post that I referred to appeared to suggest.``

There have been a few thousand articles published on the Gujarat riots in the
Indian press. This piece of garbage, however, doesn`t qualify as one. My
comment/query was about the quality of the article, not the fact that it mentioned
Gujarat.

I certainly could`ve ignored it, but chose not to. A front page littered with such stuff
does nobody any good.

HP, Mallick99

Have you been following-up on the several on going court-cases resulting out of riots?

Urstruely

please try harder with your nara-e-takbeer. you should also provide the dalits, sikhs, parsees, charsees, bhoomihars and nanga-sadhus with ak47s as they are opressed minorities too. but dont let your focus stray from the real shaitan in the interim, else its one way free ticket out of the detroit metro.

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Malyck:

I am busy taking Pangas with Hamid_81 on this board. Let me however digress on the issue you raised of the Hindu-Muslim issue being a valid issue. Yes, you are right, it is a vlaid issue. So why the knee jerk response from Indians?

1. You are Pakistani. Pakistan was based on TNT which subscribes to Hindus and Muslims not being able to live together in one country. That why you formed your own country. As per Hindu perception, since the basis of Pakistan is TNT and the theory that Hindus and Muslims cannot live together and Pakistan deliberately chose to be an Islamic Republic and indulged in ethnic cleansing of Hindus in East Pakistan in 1971. Hence, Hindu-Muslim relations inside India are an issue to be discussed by all Indians and well meaning foreigners. Pakistanis I am afraid are not considered well meaning in a Hindu-Muslim context because they have their own nationalist theory agenda to grind.

Feel free to comment on corruption inside India. There may still be defensiveness but not a knee jerk response. Some indiviuals have said that Indians talk about Pakistan all the time. Tthe issue of Jjehaids Mullahs etc. Yes, only because they affect us. If Mullahs wanted to bring Nizam e Mustafa to Pakistan and have nothing to do with India, damn right we would support him.

2. Now let us look at this individual Hamid. How can u ask me to think of him as well meaning? Read his ilogs and his comments on Hindus. Should I consider him well meaning? Would Jews have considered Hitler well meaning?

3. Why do Indian Muslims not look to Pakistan as a source of succour? What can Pakistan give to Indian Muslims? You can give them arms but can u give them refuge? Fact is better or worse, all of us are together for a common future. Barring a few Dawood Ibrahimn types, most Muslims and Hindus are in it togehter.

Pls do read this too. It will broaden your perspective.

Genocide in Bangladesh, 1971
Summary

The mass killings in Bangladesh (then East Pakistan) in 1971 vie with the annihilation of the Soviet POWs, the holocaust against the Jews, and the genocide in Rwanda as the most concentrated act of genocide in the twentieth century. In an attempt to crush forces seeking independence for East Pakistan, the West Pakistani military regime unleashed a systematic campaign of mass murder which aimed at killing millions of Bengalis, and likely succeeded in doing so.

The background

East and West Pakistan were forged in the cauldron of independence for the Indian sub-continent, ruled for two hundred years by the British. Despite the attempts of Mahatma Gandhi and others to prevent division along religious and ethnic lines, the departing British and various Indian politicians pressed for the creation of two states, one Hindu-dominated (India), the other Muslim-dominated (Pakistan). The partition of India in 1947 was one of the great tragedies of the century. Hundreds of thousands of people were killed in sectarian violence and military clashes, as Hindus fled to India and Muslims to Pakistan -- though large minorities remained in each country.

The arrangement proved highly unstable, leading to three major wars between India and Pakistan, and very nearly a fourth fullscale conflict in 1998-99. (Kashmir, divided by a ceasefire line after the first war in 1947, became one of the world`s most intractable trouble-spots.) Not the least of the difficulties was the fact that the new state of Pakistan consisted of two ``wings,`` divided by hundreds of miles of Indian territory and a gulf of ethnic identification. Over the decades, particularly after Pakistani democracy was stifled by a military dictatorship (1958), the relationship between East and West became progressively more corrupt and neo-colonial in character, and opposition to West Pakistani domination grew among the Bengali population.

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman
Catastrophic floods struck Bangladesh in August 1970, and the regime was widely seen as having botched (or ignored) its relief duties. The disaster gave further impetus to the Awami League, led by Sheikh Mujibur Rahman. The League demanded regional autonomy for East Pakistan, and an end to military rule. In national elections held in December, the League won an overwhelming victory across Bengali territory.

On February 22, 1971 the generals in West Pakistan took a decision to crush the Awami League and its supporters. It was recognized from the first that a campaign of genocide would be necessary to eradicate the threat: ``Kill three million of them,`` said President Yahya Khan at the February conference, ``and the rest will eat out of our hands.`` (Robert Payne, Massacre [1972], p. 50.) On March 25 the genocide was launched. The university in Dacca was attacked and students exterminated in their hundreds. Death squads roamed the streets of Dacca, killing some 7,000 people in a single night. It was only the beginning. ``Within a week, half the population of Dacca had fled, and at least 30,000 people had been killed. Chittagong, too, had lost half its population. All over East Pakistan people were taking flight, and it was estimated that in April some thirty million people [!] were wandering helplessly across East Pakistan to escape the grasp of the military.`` (Payne, Massacre, p. 48.) Ten million refugees fled to India, overwhelming that country`s resources and spurring the eventual Indian military intervention. (The population of Bangladesh/East Pakistan at the outbreak of the genocide was about 75 million.)

On April 10, the surviving leadership of the Awami League declared Bangladesh independent. The Mukhta Bahini (liberation forces) were mobilized to confront the West Pakistani army. They did so with increasing skill and effectiveness, utilizing their knowledge of the terrain and ability to blend with the civilian population in classic guerrilla fashion. By the end of the war, the tide had turned, and vast areas of Bangladesh had been liberated by the popular resistance.

The gendercide against Bengali men

The war against the Bengali population proceeded in classic gendercidal fashion. According to Anthony Mascarenhas, ``There is no doubt whatsoever about the targets of the genocide``:

They were: (1) The Bengali militarymen of the East Bengal Regiment, the East Pakistan Rifles, police and para-military Ansars and Mujahids. (2) The Hindus -- ``We are only killing the men; the women and children go free. We are soldiers not cowards to kill them ...`` I was to hear in Comilla [site of a major military base] [Comments R.J. Rummel: ``One would think that murdering an unarmed man was a heroic act`` (Death By Government, p. 323)] (3) The Awami Leaguers -- all office bearers and volunteers down to the lowest link in the chain of command. (4) The students -- college and university boys and some of the more militant girls. (5) Bengali intellectuals such as professors and teachers whenever damned by the army as ``militant.`` (Anthony Mascarenhas, The Rape of Bangla Desh [Delhi: Vikas Publications, 1972(?)], pp. 116-17.)
Mascarenhas`s summary makes clear the linkages between gender and social class (the ``intellectuals,`` ``professors,`` ``teachers,`` ``office bearers,`` and -- obviously -- ``militarymen`` can all be expected to be overwhelmingly if not exclusively male, although in many cases their families died or fell victim to other atrocities alongside them). In this respect, the Bangladesh events can be classed as a combined gendercide and elitocide, with both strategies overwhelmingly targeting males for the most annihilatory excesses.

Bengali man and boys massacred
by the West Pakistani regime.
Younger men and adolescent boys, of whatever social class, were equally targets. According to Rounaq Jahan, ``All through the liberation war, able-bodied young men were suspected of being actual or potential freedom fighters. Thousands were arrested, tortured, and killed. Eventually cities and towns became bereft of young males who either took refuge in India or joined the liberation war.`` Especially ``during the first phase`` of the genocide, he writes, ``young able-bodied males were the victims of indiscriminate killings.`` (``Genocide in Bangladesh,`` in Totten et al., Century of Genocide, p. 298.) R.J. Rummel likewise writes that ``the Pakistan army [sought] out those especially likely to join the resistance -- young boys. Sweeps were conducted of young men who were never seen again. Bodies of youths would be found in fields, floating down rivers, or near army camps. As can be imagined, this terrorized all young men and their families within reach of the army. Most between the ages of fifteen and twenty-five began to flee from one village to another and toward India. Many of those reluctant to leave their homes were forced to flee by mothers and sisters concerned for their safety.`` (Death By Government, p. 329.) Rummel describes (p. 323) a chilling gendercidal ritual, reminiscent of Nazi procedure towards Jewish males: ``In what became province-wide acts of genocide, Hindus were sought out and killed on the spot. As a matter of course, soldiers would check males for the obligated circumcision among Moslems. If circumcised, they might live; if not, sure death.``

Robert Payne describes scenes of systematic mass slaughter around Dacca that, while not explicitly ``gendered`` in his account, bear every hallmark of classic gender-selective roundups and gendercidal slaughters of non-combatant men:

In the dead region surrounding Dacca, the military authorities conducted experiments in mass extermination in places unlikely to be seen by journalists. At Hariharpara, a once thriving village on the banks of the Buriganga River near Dacca, they found the three elements necessary for killing people in large numbers: a prison in which to hold the victims, a place for executing the prisoners, and a method for disposing of the bodies. The prison was a large riverside warehouse, or godown, belonging to the Pakistan National Oil Company, the place of execution was the river edge, or the shallows near the shore, and the bodies were disposed of by the simple means of permitting them to float downstream. The killing took place night after night. Usually the prisoners were roped together and made to wade out into the river. They were in batches of six or eight, and in the light of a powerful electric arc lamp, they were easy targets, black against the silvery water. The executioners stood on the pier, shooting down at the compact bunches of prisoners wading in the water. There were screams in the hot night air, and then silence. The prisoners fell on their sides and their bodies lapped against the shore. Then a new bunch of prisoners was brought out, and the process was repeated. In the morning the village boatmen hauled the bodies into midstream and the ropes binding the bodies were cut so that each body drifted separately downstream. (Payne, Massacre [Macmillan, 1973], p. 55.)
Strikingly similar and equally hellish scenes are described in the case-studies of genocide in Armenia and the Nanjing Massacre of 1937.

Atrocities against Bengali women

As was also the case in Armenia and Nanjing, Bengali women were targeted for gender-selective atrocities and abuses, notably gang sexual assault and rape/murder, from the earliest days of the Pakistani genocide. Indeed, despite (and in part because of) the overwhelming targeting of males for mass murder, it is for the systematic brutalization of women that the ``Rape of Bangladesh`` is best known to western observers.

In her ground-breaking book, Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape, Susan Brownmiller likened the 1971 events in Bangladesh to the Japanese rapes in Nanjing and German rapes in Russia during World War II. ``... 200,000, 300,000 or possibly 400,000 women (three sets of statistics have been variously quoted) were raped. Eighty percent of the raped women were Moslems, reflecting the population of Bangladesh, but Hindu and Christian women were not exempt. ... Hit-and-run rape of large numbers of Bengali women was brutally simple in terms of logistics as the Pakistani regulars swept through and occupied the tiny, populous land ...`` (p. 81).

Typical was the description offered by reporter Aubrey Menen of one such assault, which targeted a recently-married woman:

Two [Pakistani soldiers] went into the room that had been built for the bridal couple. The others stayed behind with the family, one of them covering them with his gun. They heard a barked order, and the bridegroom`s voice protesting. Then there was silence until the bride screamed. Then there was silence again, except for some muffled cries that soon subsided. In a few minutes one of the soldiers came out, his uniform in disarray. He grinned to his companions. Another soldier took his place in the extra room. And so on, until all the six had raped the belle of the village. Then all six left, hurriedly. The father found his daughter lying on the string cot unconscious and bleeding. Her husband was crouched on the floor, kneeling over his vomit. (Quoted in Brownmiller, Against Our Will, p. 82.)
``Rape in Bangladesh had hardly been restricted to beauty,`` Brownmiller writes. ``Girls of eight and grandmothers of seventy-five had been sexually assaulted ... Pakistani soldiers had not only violated Bengali women on the spot; they abducted tens of hundreds and held them by force in their military barracks for nightly use.`` Some women may have been raped as many as eighty times in a night (Brownmiller, p. 83). How many died from this atrocious treatment, and how many more women were murdered as part of the generalized campaign of destruction and slaughter, can only be guessed at (see below).

Despite government efforts at amelioration, the torment and persecution of the survivors continued long after Bangladesh had won its independence:

Rape, abduction and forcible prostitution during the nine-month war proved to be only the first round of humiliation for the Bengali women. Prime Minister Mujibur Rahman`s declaration that victims of rape were national heroines was the opening shot of an ill-starred campaign to reintegrate them into society -- by smoothing the way for a return to their husbands or by finding bridegrooms for the unmarried [or widowed] ones from among his Mukti Bahini freedom fighters. Imaginative in concept for a country in which female chastity and purdah isolation are cardinal principles, the ``marry them off`` campaign never got off the ground. Few prospective bridegrooms stepped forward, and those who did made it plain that they expected the government, as father figure, to present them with handsome dowries. (Brownmiller, Against Our Will, p. 84.)
How many died?

The number of dead in Bangladesh in 1971 was almost certainly well into seven figures. It was one of the worst genocides of the World War II era, outstripping Rwanda (800,000 killed) and probably surpassing even Indonesia (1 million to 1.5 million killed in 1965-66). As R.J. Rummel writes,

The human death toll over only 267 days was incredible. Just to give for five out of the eighteen districts some incomplete statistics published in Bangladesh newspapers or by an Inquiry Committee, the Pakistani army killed 100,000 Bengalis in Dacca, 150,000 in Khulna, 75,000 in Jessore, 95,000 in Comilla, and 100,000 in Chittagong. For eighteen districts the total is 1,247,000 killed. This was an incomplete toll, and to this day no one really knows the final toll. Some estimates of the democide [Rummel`s ``death by government``] are much lower -- one is of 300,000 dead -- but most range from 1 million to 3 million. ... The Pakistani army and allied paramilitary groups killed about one out of every sixty-one people in Pakistan overall; one out of every twenty-five Bengalis, Hindus, and others in East Pakistan. If the rate of killing for all of Pakistan is annualized over the years the Yahya martial law regime was in power (March 1969 to December 1971), then this one regime was more lethal than that of the Soviet Union, China under the communists, or Japan under the military (even through World War II). (Rummel, Death By Government, p. 331.)
The proportion of men versus women murdered is impossible to ascertain, but a speculation might be attempted. If we take the highest estimates for both women raped and Bengalis killed (400,000 and 3 million, respectively); if we accept that half as many women were killed as were raped; and if we double that number for murdered children of both sexes (total: 600,000), we are still left with a death-toll that is 80 percent adult male (2.4 million out of 3 million). Any such disproportion, which is almost certainly on the low side, would qualify Bangladesh as one of the worst gendercides against men in the last half-millennium.

Who was responsible?

``For month after month in all the regions of East Pakistan the massacres went on,`` writes Robert Payne. ``They were not the small casual killings of young officers who wanted to demonstrate their efficiency, but organized massacres conducted by sophisticated staff officers, who knew exactly what they were doing. Muslim soldiers, sent out to kill Muslim peasants, went about their work mechanically and efficiently, until killing defenseless people became a habit like smoking cigarettes or drinking wine. ... Not since Hitler invaded Russia had there been so vast a massacre.`` (Payne, Massacre, p. 29.)

There is no doubt that the mass killing in Bangladesh was among the most carefully and centrally planned of modern genocides. A cabal of five Pakistani generals orchestrated the events: President Yahya Khan, General Tikka Khan, chief of staff General Pirzada, security chief General Umar Khan, and intelligence chief General Akbar Khan. The U.S. government, long supportive of military rule in Pakistan, supplied some $3.8 million in military equipment to the dictatorship after the onset of the genocide, ``and after a government spokesman told Congress that all shipments to Yahya Khan`s regime had ceased.`` (Payne, Massacre, p. 102.)

The genocide and gendercidal atrocities were also perpetrated by lower-ranking officers and ordinary soldiers. These ``willing executioners`` were fuelled by an abiding anti-Bengali racism, especially against the Hindu minority. ``Bengalis were often compared with monkeys and chickens. Said Pakistan General Niazi, `It was a low lying land of low lying people.` The Hindus among the Bengalis were as Jews to the Nazis: scum and vermin that [should] best be exterminated. As to the Moslem Bengalis, they were to live only on the sufferance of the soldiers: any infraction, any suspicion cast on them, any need for reprisal, could mean their death. And the soldiers were free to kill at will. The journalist Dan Coggin quoted one Punjabi captain as telling him, `We can kill anyone for anything. We are accountable to no one.` This is the arrogance of Power.`` (Rummel, Death By Government, p. 335.)

The aftermath

On December 3, India under Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, seeking to return the millions of Bengali refugees and seize an opportunity to weaken its perennial military rival, finally launched a fullscale intervention to crush West Pakistani forces and secure Bangladeshi independence. The Pakistani army, demoralized by long months of guerrilla warfare, quickly collapsed. On December 16, after a final genocidal outburst, the Pakistani regime agreed to an unconditional surrender. Awami leader Sheikh Mujib was released from detention and returned to a hero`s welcome in Dacca on January 10, 1972, establishing Bangladesh`s first independent parliament.

In a brutal bloodletting following the expulsion of the Pakistani army, perhaps 150,000 people were murdered by the vengeful victors. (Rummel, Death By Government, p. 334.) The trend is far too common in such post-genocidal circumstances (see the case-studies of Rwanda, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo, and the Soviet POWs). Such largescale reprisal killings also tend to have a gendercidal character, which may have been the case in Bangladesh: Jahan writes that during the reprisal stage, ``another group of Bengali men in the rural areas -- those who were coerced or bribed to collaborate with the Pakistanis -- fell victims to the attacks of Bengali freedom fighters.`` (``Genocide in Bangladesh,`` p. 298; emphasis added.)

None of the generals involved in the genocide has ever been brought to trial, and all remain at large in Pakistan and other countries. Several movements have arisen to try to bring them before an international tribunal (see Bangladesh links for further information).

Political and military upheaval did not end with Bangladeshi independence. Rummel notes that ``the massive bloodletting by all parties in Bangladesh affected its politics for the following decades. The country has experienced military coup after military coup, some of them bloody.`` (Death By Government, p. 334.)

ana #100 - you wrote ``and please, let us also address the issues in our own country.``

ana, ALL of your points are valid points. And they do need to be talked about. But that is for another board. We cannot possibly talk about all the injustices in the world on this very board. I ask you to write an article about the injustices in Pakistan, and we will discuss it then.

At this moment, lets keep the focus on the treatment of Muslims in India. That is the theme of the article by Hamid_81 - lets try to stay on topic here.

mallick

``Lets talk about how we can ensure that Gujarat is never repeated, that the women do not have to hide in their houses which are later torched, that the mosques are not destroyed, that the grown men don`t have to cry and beg for their lives. ``

i dont have a simple and short answer for how to improve the muslim (and many other dispossed groupings) and others economic power etc (stuka thiks offer reservations .. maybe). But we must avoid Godhra at all costs so that Gujrath does not happen.

Oye Hamid 81:

Any idiot can jerk off on fantasies. I dunno when u will become President of Pakistan. Till then hopefully you will get a to share the sun and sand with your cousins at GITMO. Yes, all Hindus are like me. BWAHAHAHA...Good thing your cowardly family ran away. Now hopefully they will be shot by Pakistan Rangers as suspected MQM Sympathizers. BWAHAHA!!!

Urstuly:

Oye instead of arming them why don`t you come and fight for them? Why shoot from the shoulders of others? Mard key bacchey hau tau come and fight.

But when does your hijra Fauj fight in open battle? Last time they fought openly they had their butts kicked and Jarnails were surrendering openly. Only place where Pakistani Fauj has shown mardangi is in fighting against Bangladeshi and Baluchi civilians. Now your Fauj is using Helicopters and Rockets against fellow Pakistanis in Wana. HAHAHA!!

IN 20 YEARS ON INSURGENCY, INDIA NEVER USED THE IAF INSIDE KASHMIR.

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#70 by ana

Your response was predictable. Sometimes people lose perspective and get down on themselves so much that they start believing Farzana’s advise as if she has a PhD in psychology. I hope, someday she will sort of her own problems that show clearly in her articles. Anyway, I am not going to waste my sweat on her.

Let’s talk about “that woman” too. I knew you would bring that up. That woman in her own screwed up little world, considered all Pakistanis in particular and Muslims in general, enemies, hateful and hated them with all her might. Her posts, littered on this site would bear testimony to that and this site still reeks of her foul body odor. An enemy is an enemy and since she never shot worrying about her sex and posted her hateful messages about enemies (Pakistanis) gleefully, why would anybody expect me to hold my fire because she was a woman?
She was a persona of hate and she got what she deserved. I promise you if the situation is presented again, I would do the same thing and I know many agree with me on that.

#71 by dost-mittar

Dost mittar Sahib,

You held back but I would point out to you that lies and Gujarat have a difference. Ignorance is bliss but just to clear up for you, many of my Hindu friends in Pakistan have married Indian girls and brought them to Pakistan. That tradition still continues. Similarly many Pakistani marry in India. Borders don’t take relations and families away. People will continue to move back and forth for many social reasons.

Indian Muslims are an oppressed religious minority in India. Everybody has a right to speak out on their behalf. If the Hindu majority in India considers that a cause for more oppression than it is the meanness of the religious majority. It is a humanitarian problem and every conscious person in the world has a right a say what they feel right about it.
I have no problem when you discuss problems in Pakistan and I would always welcome a discussion with you as I don’t think you have any malice or mean bones in your body.

#67 by plats8

There may be many facts about Gujarat that I am not aware of. I may be right or I may be wrong depends on what I opted to believe and same is the case for you. It was a human tragedy and people who blame Godhra for Gujarat are as hateful as people who justify Godhra for any reason.
The point in my post was that writing about Gujarat should not be a cause of yanking an article as your post that I referred to appeared to suggest.

Literary merits or demerits are part of the writings. If you believe that it was not worth your time you should have ignored it instead of asking for its removal.

Malik99 #93,

The compassion some Pakistanis feel for Indian Muslims is touching, I say. The
sanctimony that accompanies it is also of prime quality.

``I, to this very day, have the image etched in my mind of an Indian Muslim whose
picture I saw in a US newspaper. He had his hands clasped in front of him, he was
crying, and begging the hindu mob to spare his life. His hair were dirtied with mud, a
s if he had been dragged for miles. According to the picture`s caption, he was burned
alive a few minutes after the picture was taken.``

Let me cut and paste something I had written earlier on this board about this very
picture which brought our sensitive author to tears as well.

``By the way, the picture you keep pointing out (for deeply humane reasons, I am
certain) is that of Qutbuddin Ansari. He is alive and relatively well, and has relocated
to Calcutta (which I really wish he didn`t have to). You may want to look up these
url`s. His case was actually followed widely across the Indian press.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/525354.cms
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20021212/nation.htm``

Now let me ask you - did the US newspaper really say that he was burnt alive ?
Is it possible to get a reference for it - I`d like to have it corrected.

malik99. . .

i think you need to read my interacts a little more carefully. . .or not read things that are not there before you begin preaching. advocating for sensitivity does not equal denial. and people including myself are talking about how to ensure another gujarat does not happen again. . we have been talking about this since it happened. these talks on communal harmony are happening here, and what pakistanis like you AND me need to realize is that this is happening in india as well.

and please, let us also address the issues in our own country. let us create conditions where both hindus and christians feel that they don`t have to leave a country they have considered to be a home for generations and generations. let us sincerely talk and pray and ensure that another gujarat never happens again, but let us stop the state apparatuses, the individual people who persecute hindus, and destroy a christian village, and kill christians in jail and `khhule aam maiN`. let us address the communal and religious violence muslims are perpetrating upon each other in our country. let us let those christians who lost their homes, and our hindu brothers and sisters in OUR country, malik, in OUR country, know that it isn`t only our muslim brothers and sisters whose images are etched in our minds. .that it isn`t only our muslim brothers and sisters our hearts bleed for.

let us do that, before you tell me what i as a christian pakistani am in denial about. thank you.

Hamid_81,

Another pearl from you...

``You do know beef is very important if you want to keep playing those taans.``

Darn, someone should`ve mentioned this to Allauddin Khan.

Stuka. You can cuss me out as much as you can. All that tells me is that hindus in India, are as fuc..ked up as you are. And really without any doubt, I think they should be totally removed from the face of this earth. One more reason for Pakistan to Nuke you guys. If I become the president of Pakistan, without even asking a question send you whole family and girls over so I can use them. Else your a.s is nuked, and you will only have charred burned remains of Muslims to whack off on.

Now balluKhan. I think you are an insecure failure. Neither are you a good musician ( I think you are a third rate musician), nor an intelligent one. rais khan, can sing Ghazals, and Thumris, and songs and play sitar because he can. And he does whatever he does good. Now you on the other hand, are a sorry-a.s individual. Nobod knows what you do. Play, sing, whack off? What? >???????? Well, an advice, become a shagird of rais Khan, as he wil gladly accept you and learn. rather than talking about things you don`t know, learn. And then write what you want to say. Onthe other hand, I perfectly well know how to play sitar, and sing. So I don`t need your stupid advice, on how to play. On the other hand I might be able to teach you a couple of things if you want. No just stop with you whining. Rais Khan is beyond your reach, so admit it.
In Pakistan, yes he doesn`t play a lot of concerts, but every year he comes to USA and plays. Millinos of people, even spies of Ravi Shankar and other stupid people, come and listen to him. His techniques and baaj is beayond everybody. So no need to discuss that. Produce one recording of sitar like him and then come out and say what you say.
Now ana, please DO NOT under any circumstances think I apologised to you. I just said that I lowered myself to your filthy level, and I apologised to people for my usage. I still think the same thing for you.
Why don`t you and stuka get together and raise an army/family of patriotic Indian MusHinds? Something you can definetly work on.

Oh my Lord. What happened here?

SOME INTERACTORS ARE UNFORTUNATELY MAKING THIS AN INDIA VS.PAKISTAN ISSUE.
THEY ARE DIGRESSING FROM THE MAIN THEME THE STORY PRESENTS. NO ONE IS SAYING THAT PAKISTAN IS CLEANSED FROM RAPE OR VIOLENCE ETC. BUT THEN THEY ARE ONLY ON A SECETERIAN LEVEL, EVEN IF RIOTS TOOK PLACE IN PAKISTAN AGAINST NON-MUSLIMS, THE RATIO , COMPARED TO INDIA IS MUCH LOW. I REALLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT MR.RAJAT WAS TRYING TO PROVE AS THE REPORT HE PRESENTED SHOWS ILLITERACY AND SUPPRESSED SOCIAL CONDITIONS AND NOT RAPE OR VIOLENCE OR MANSLAUGHTER AGAINST NON MUSLIMS.



A mass grave in Ahmedabad, Gujarat, in which sixty-one bodies — thirty-four of women and twenty-seven of children — are buried. Since February 27, 2002, more than 850 people have been killed in communal violence in the state of Gujarat, most of them Muslims. Unofficial estimates put the death toll as high as 2,000. The attacks against Muslims in Gujarat have been actively supported by state government officials and by the police. Police told Muslims, ``We don`t have any orders to save you.`` © 2002 Smita Narula/Human Rights Watch


STATE AND POLICE PARTICIPATION AND COMPLICITY

On the morning of February 27, 2002, the gruesome attack on the Sabarmati Express in Godhra, Gujarat, left fifty-eight dead. The train cars set alight were carrying Hindu kar sevaks (religious volunteers) returning from Ayodhya. By evening, retaliatory attacks against Muslims had begun, including in Rajkot, Vadodara, and Bharuch.50 That same day the Vishwa Hindu Parishad called for a statewide bandh (shut-down) for February 28, a call that according to press reports, its cadre interpreted as a call to action.51 The state`s endorsement of the bandh, announced through a press note issued at 8 p.m. on February 27, was taken by the VHP/Bajrang Dal as an endorsement of its stand.

State support of the bandh also sent a message to the police. A reporter for the Hindu observed that, ``In such a situation, the police would always be hesitant to act lest it hurt the interests of the political bosses. And the saffronised police also found a common cause with the criminals to `punish` the minorities.`` The same reporter wrote that, ``insiders in the Bharatiya Janata Party admit that the police were under instructions from the Narendra Modi administration not to act firmly.``

By the afternoon of February 27, retaliatory attacks had already begun, including the stabbing of a Muslim man in Vadodara railway station as crowds gathered awaiting the arrival of the Sabarmati Express.55 Starting on the morning of February 28, Hindu mobs unleashed a coordinated attack against Muslims in many of Gujarat`s towns and cities.56 Despite the state`s claims that police were simply overwhelmed by the sheer size of the Hindu mobs-often numbering in the thousands-evidence collected by the media, Indian human rights groups, and Human Rights Watch all point to state sponsorship of the attacks. Eyewitness accounts cited throughout this report, as well as the history of police and political recruitment demonstrate the state`s partisan role. In a matter of days, over 850 people are known to have been killed-although unofficial estimates are as high as 2,000. Violence continued as of this writing and has quickly spread to poorly protected rural areas. Accounts of politicians directing the violence are also commonplace. Furthermore, in many cases, police posts and police stations were in close proximity to affected sites.

After allowing thirty-six hours to pass without any serious intervention, the first of several contingents of army troops were deployed into Ahmedabad, Rajkot, and Vadodara on March 1.58 Many had to be flown in from reserves` stations in south Indian as the bulk of Indian forces are stationed along the India-Pakistan border. Though the army arrived in Gujarat soon after the Godhra carnage,60 the state government refused to deploy the soldiers until twenty-fours hours after they arrived and only once the worst violence had ended.61 The army`s inability to rapidly intervene was also hindered by the state government`s failure to provide requested transportation support and information regarding areas where violence was occurring. Speaking on why the army took so long to quell the violence, an Indian army source stated, ``We are ordered to be deployed only when such incidents happen. And once we are there it is up to that state administration how they use us.``

In Ahmedabad, Gujarat`s commercial capital and the site of Human Rights Watch`s investigations, many attacks took place within view of police posts and police stations. Human Rights Watch viewed several police posts less than fifty feet from the site of burnt Muslim-owned restaurants, places of businesses, and hotels in Ahmedabad. Without exception, the Hindu-owned establishments neighboring the destroyed structures were unscathed. The same pattern was observed by India`s National Human Rights Commission during its fact-finding mission in March (see below).

Attacks in Ahmedabad on February 28 also began at precisely the same time, around 10:30 in the morning. Muslims living in ``mixed communities,`` that is alongside Hindus, were hit the hardest while those concentrated in Muslim enclaves following a history of state communal riots fared only marginally better.

According to an article in The Week, a weekly Indian news magazine, 1,679 houses, 1,965 shops, and twenty-one godowns (warehouses) were burnt, 204 shops looted, and seventy-six shrines were destroyed in Ahmedabad. The great majority of them belonged to Muslims.

Dozens of witnesses interviewed by Human Rights Watch described almost identical operations. The attackers arrived by the thousands in trucks, clad in saffron scarves and khaki shorts, the signature uniform of Hindu nationalist, or Hindutva, groups. Shouting slogans of incitement to kill, they were armed with swords, trishuls, 65 sophisticated explosives, and gas cylinders. Guided by computer printouts listing the addresses of Muslim families and their properties, information obtained from the Ahmedabad municipal corporation among other sources, they embarked on a murderous rampage. In many cases, the police led the charge, aiming and firing at Muslims who got in the mobs` way

According to the preliminary report of SAHMAT, a Delhi-based nongovernmental organization, its fact-finding team found graffiti left behind on the charred walls of a burnt madrassa in Sundaramnagar, Ahmedabad boasted of police support:

Yeh andar ki bat hai
Police hamarey saath hai
(This is inside information, the police are with us).

Jaan se mar dengey
Bajrang Dal zindabad
Narendra Modi zindabad
(We will kill. Long live the Bajrang Dal. Long live Narendra Modi).

Andar ki bat hai... was also the war-cry used to terrorize Muslim residents in Vadi in the city of Vadodara as they burnt Muslim-owned shops that ironically sold kites, bindis, and bangles for Hindu festivals.

Human Rights Watch interviews with eyewitnesses to the attacks revealed that that the attackers were carrying voter lists as well as listings of Muslim businesses, along with cell phones and water bottles ``so as to be fully prepared for a long day`s work.`` According to a report in Outlook magazine, attempts to pinpoint the exact location of Muslim businesses began months before the attacks:

In Ahmedabad... one official recalled how for the last few months, there had been concerted attempts to get lists of Muslim business establishments from the Ahmedabad municipal corporation.... VHP volunteers have also been making the rounds of professional institutions and universities, seeking the names and addresses of Muslim students. Some government sources say VHP members have drawn up lists of government departments (for example, the Food Corporation of India) and their allied agencies, and identified ``undesirables`` and their addresses.

Professor Keshavram Kashiram Shastri, ninety-six-year-old chairman of the Gujarat unit of the VHP denied the charge that the VHP prepared lists in advance of Muslim shops to loot. To the contrary, he said ``the list of shops owned by Muslims in Ahmedabad was prepared on the morning of February 28 itself.``

Voter lists were also reportedly used to identify and target Muslim community members. A senior police officer told rediff.com, a leading Internet news site on India, on conditions of anonymity that, ``[The attackers] hardly failed to lay hands on their targets, thanks to documents like the voters` list.... The mission was accomplished with clinical precision.``

In many cases the leaders of the attack, who communicated with one another on cell phones, receiving instructions in seemingly well-coordinated and planned operations, have been identified by name in police reports as members of the BJP and the VHP. Few, if any, of the leaders have been arrested .

As the state offers one excuse after another-that the police were outnumbered, overwhelmed, did not receive orders to respond, or that their own feelings could not be ``insulated from the general social milieu`` -no excuse proves sufficient to explain the direct participation of police in the attacks.

Press reports and eyewitness testimonies, including those collected by Human Rights Watch, abound with stories of police participation and complicity in the attacks. Their crimes range from inaction to direct participation in the looting and burning of Muslim shops, restaurants, hotels, homes, and the killing of Muslim residents. Worse still, officers who tried to keep the peace or act against murderous mobs have been transferred or have faced the wrath of their superiors.

A key state minister is reported to have taken over a police control room in Ahmedabad on the first day of the carnage, issuing directions not to rescue Muslims in danger of being killed:

If VHP-BJP leaders led mobs from the front along with the police, they also took control of the institutional apparatus. Health Minister Ashok Bhatt sat in the Police Control Room in Ahmedabad through the first two days of violence. Given his portfolio, it was an odd place to be but not given his past. Bhatt, along with Union Minister of State for Defence Harin Pathak, faces charges of having incited a mob that murdered a police constable in the course of communal violence on April 25, 1985. According to several eyewitnesses, another State Minister, Harin Pandya, moved through the Paldi area, speaking to leaders of mobs that were burning Muslim homes and shops. [State Home Minister Gordhan] Jhadaphia, who ought to have been in the control room after the violence broke out on February , was busy telling reporters that he ``did not expect Hindus to retaliate.``

Many people testified that the police led the mobs directly to their homes and places of business. In many instances, the police also fired upon Muslim youth, crushing any organized self-defense against the mobs.

A human rights activist who has been visiting relief camps in Ahmedabad on an almost daily basis since the attacks and documenting in detail the nature and methodology of the violence provided valuable insight into the patterns that emerged:

Most incidents happened at the same time. It was definitely pre-planned. Many were around 10:30 a.m. The role of the police was also very clear. When I interviewed victims, they said that prior to the attacks mass meetings were taking place that were being addressed by local VHP and Bajrang Dal leaders. A rumor was already going around that something was going to happen, long before the Godhra incident.

The attacks also took place where the Muslim population is low, in areas where people could not adequately defend or protect themselves. The police itself was also involved in almost all incidents. Local MLAs [members of legislative assembly] and corporators [local officials] were also involved. In many cases SRP [State Reserve Police] camps were close by. Everybody knew that attacks were going on but no one tried to prevent them. So many women had been gang-raped and then killed.... Usually in our work we address individual incidents so we have hope for justice. But there is no hope here because the involvement of the police is so high. You feel irrelevant, like you have wasted ten years.

Twenty-six major towns and talukas (sub-districts) in Gujarat were affected in the first week of violence. Attacks had also spread to rural areas. In Halad village in north Gujarat, for example, hotels and businesses belonging to Muslims were attacked when the dead body of a Hindu activist killed in the train attack in Godhra was brought to the village.78 The patterns of violence in the worst-hit cities, where the majority of people killed were Muslim, were remarkably similar, lending further support to the notion that the attacks were planned and not the result of spontaneous riots. An interim report on violence in Vadodara submitted to the NHRC by the nongovernmental People`s Union for Civil Liberties (PUCL), for example, documents in meticulous detail the selective burning and looting of Muslim homes and places of business, the destruction of mosques, the killing, beating, and maiming of Muslims, the extent of police participation in the attacks, and the role of the local media in inciting the violence. The report also documents the spreading of hate propaganda leading to economic boycotts. A separate report by PUCL outlines the impact on women (see below).

At this writing, attacks were being reported on an almost daily basis, over six weeks after the state government`s claims that the situation had been brought under control. On March 24, for example, thirty-year-old Mumtazbano was stripped in public and stabbed to death by a mob in the Vejalpur area of Ahmedabad after being dragged off her husband`s scooter.80 On April 6, at least five people were killed in Ahmedabad. Two were stabbed to death and three were killed by police gunfire as police reportedly fired to disperse clashing groups of Hindus and Muslims.81 On April 17, three people were stabbed to death and fifteen were injured in Hindu-Muslim clashes in Ahmedabad.

POLICE FIRINGS
``They only shot at one side. Why? Why didn`t they shoot to stop the attackers?``

Numerous eyewitnesses to the attacks in Ahmedabad told Human Rights Watch that police gunfire paved the way for the violent mobs. Marching in front of the mobs, the police burst tear gas shells and aimed and fired at Muslim youth seeking to defend their families and their homes. According to a report in The Week, a weekly Indian news magazine, in the month following the Godhra massacre, 120 people had been killed in police shootings throughout the state, many of them Muslim.84 At this writing, the numbers were climbing. Hindus were also killed in police shootings, some in response to shoot-on-sight orders issued by Chief Minister Modi on March 1 to stop those participating in rioting and arson, and others in the weeks that followed as police tried to contain outbreaks of violence.

During the first two days of violence, Chief Minister Modi defended the actions of his police stating that they had ``mowed down people`` to quell the violence. According to the Indian Express, ``one such incident he was referring to occurred on February 28 and March 1 near the Bapunagar police station, where 40 were killed in firing. Now, according to a batch of FIRs filed last week and post mortem reports, it has come to light that all 40 were Muslims, most of them shot in the head and the chest. And 36 of them were between 20 and 25 years old.``

A resident of the Chartoda Kabristan camp in the Gomtipur area told Human Rights Watch: ``We were able to handle the crowd but when the police joined in then we couldn`t stop them. Our spirit was broken. They were shouting, `Kill them, cut them, look for Miyabhai [Muslim man].` The police burned the houses with their own hands. They also looted. Now everyone is afraid of the police; they were only firing on Muslims. They were not firing for riot control.``

According to the Chartoda Kabristan camp organizer:

From the areas represented in this camp, twenty-five people were hit in police and private firings. Sixteen died, the rest are in hospitals.... There are still burnings going on.... If they keep dividing people then people will keep losing faith in this state. They need to put a brake on it. If the state does not want to stop it then it will keep happening. Everyone will tell you that the police came first, fired and then the private attackers came.88

Twenty-five-year-old Abdul Aziz, a resident of Panna Lal ki Chali, near Chartoda Kabristan, witnessed the killing of his brother by police gunfire. He told Human Rights Watch:

On the 28th afternoon at 3 p.m. my younger brother was returning from work. The police said that a curfew was in place. A crowd gathered to attack. The police was leading the crowd. They were looting and the people followed, looting and burning behind them. The crowd was shouting, ``Go to Pakistan. If you want to stay here become Hindu.`` The police very clearly aimed at my brother and fired at him. He was twenty-three years old. At 6 p.m., three hours later, we were able to get him to the hospital.... We have not filed any complaints. All the doctors that have been coming here are private or from NGOs.

Julamasul Abdul Bhai Kureishi, of Danzi ki Chali near Chartoda Kabristan, lost his son to police gunfire. He told Human Rights Watch:

They made us homeless and they took my son.... The police came from one side and the crowd came from the other. They started setting fire to things and firing shots. My son was shot and killed. He was twenty-two years old. They collected all the young men. The police were calling the crowds. The police had the mob behind them.

Another resident of Danzi ki Chali told Human Rights Watch: ``The police grabbed me and hit me with a sword and a lathi [baton]. They also shot my seven-year-old son. He spent eleven to twelve days in the hospital.``

Twenty-two-year-old Mohammed Salim from Bara Sache ki Chali told Human Rights Watch that most of the deaths in his neighborhood were caused by police shooting. He described a pattern testified to by many interviewed by Human Rights Watch:

The Hindus called us outside to fight. When we came out, the police fired on us, twelve to thirteen people died.... They said come forward, then they started shouting, ``Kill the Muslims, cut the Muslims, loot the Muslims.`` The police were with them and picked out the Muslim homes and set them on fire. The police aimed and fired at the Muslim boys. They then joined with the Hindus to set fire to the homes and to loot the homes. The police were carrying kerosene bottles and shooting and setting the bottles on fire. The others were carrying swords and trishuls. Some of the attackers were wearing kesri pattis [saffron bandannas] on their foreheads with the words ``Jai Sri Ram`` [Praise Lord Ram]. The attackers consisted of both people from our neighborhood and also people from outside. None of the deaths from our area were from the Bajrang Dal, it was all from police firing. One person also lost his eyesight as a result of police firing. One woman was burnt alive. She was old and couldn`t run. She was cut in three pieces. The police came inside [the Chartoda Kabristan area] and fired.

A fifteen-year-old boy named Sanu from the Riyaz Hussain ki Chali was also killed. According to residents of the Chartoda Kabristan camp, ``The police caught him from inside the Masjid, took him to the Hindu area and shot him at close range.``

MASS GRAVESITES AND COLLECTION OF BODIES
Surviving family members have faced the added trauma of having to fend for themselves in recovering and identifying the bodies of their loved ones under difficult security conditions and with little assistance from the state government. The bodies have been buried in mass gravesites throughout Ahmedabad. Many bodies have been charred beyond recognition and many are still missing. To bury hundreds of Muslim victims, mass gravesites have sprouted throughout the city of Ahmedabad. A March 6 article on the news site rediff.com reported that as many as 212 bodies of men, women, and children were buried in graveyards in Dudheshwar, Juhapura, Sarkhej, and Sarangpur-all in Ahmedabad-since March 3, 2002.

Human Rights Watch visited a gravesite in the Shahibaug area of Ahmedabad. According to gravediggers there: ``The state government has not given one paisa [one cent]. No one asks. One police car would accompany a truck full of bodies. Our young would go around and look for the bodies. We use our own trucks.``93 When asked about the events of the last several weeks, eighty-five-year-old gravekeeper Abdul Kadir simply said: ``I cannot even talk about it.`` Another gravekeeper added, ``New incidents are happening so more bodies keep coming.``94 Gravekeepers claimed to have already buried close to three hundred bodies at the gravesite. Human Rights Watch was shown a metal leg brace that survived the burning of its owner to illustrate the story of a handicapped person`s murder. A resident of the Chartoda Kabristan camp in Gomtipur told Human Rights Watch: ``We ourselves collected and buried the bodies. The military came with us for protection.``

ATTACKS ON WOMEN

I have never known a riot which has used the sexual subjugation of women so widely as an instrument of violence as in the recent mass barbarity in Gujarat. There are reports everywhere of gang-rape, of young girls and women, often in the presence of members of their families, followed by their murder by burning alive, or by bludgeoning with a hammer and in one case with a screw driver. Women in the Aman Chowk shelter told appalling stories about how armed men disrobed themselves in front of a group of terrified women to cower them down further.

Tragically consistent with the longstanding pattern of attacks on minorities and Dalits (or so-called untouchables) in India, and with previous episodes of large-scale communal violence in India, scores of Muslim girls and women were brutally raped in Gujarat before being killed.

A resident of Jawan Nagar, Naroda, Ahmedabad told the Citizens` Initiative that only four out of his eleven family members had survived. His daughter was raped and burned, succumbing to her injuries in the hospital:

My house has a small grocery store and I was there in the store. A mob came from Charanagar. Five hundred strong mob came from Kubernagar. Two thousand strong mob came. They started riot, burning houses. We ran to nearby Gangotri society and took shelter on the terrace. The mob started burning people at around 5 or 6 o`clock in the evening. The mob stripped all the girls of the locality including my 22-year-old daughter and raped them. My daughter was engaged. Seven members of my family were burnt that includes my wife (age 40), my son (18), my son (14), my son (7), my daughter (4), my daughter (2). Police did not allow me to climb down from the terrace. My 8-year-old son has survived with 20 percent burn injuries and he remembers his mother. What can I do? My house and shop has been burnt.... They hit her on the head and burnt. She had 80 percent burn injuries.

Even pregnant women were not spared. In some cases, their bellies were cut open and the fetus was pulled out before the women were killed. A gravedigger at a mass grave site next to the Dariyakhan Ghummat camp in the Shahibaug area told Human Rights Watch: ``There were at least three pregnant women and one of the fetuses was partially hanging out. We had to stick it back in before burial. If the fetus was completely removed then we left it out but still buried it with the mother.``

A woman who washed the bodies of female victims before burial at the same site told Human Rights Watch about the conditions of the bodies upon arrival:

I washed the ladies` bodies before burial. Some bodies had heads missing, some had hands missing, some were like coal, you would touch them and they would crumble. Some women`s bodies had been split down the middle. I washed seventeen bodies on March 2, only one was completely intact. All had been burned, many had been split down the middle. On March 3 fifteen more bodies came. Then I just threw water over them, I couldn`t stand to be around them anymore.

Some of the cuts down the middle of the bodies may have been a consequence of official autopsies, though not all.

A report sponsored by the Citizens` Initiative dated April 16, 2002 and titled ``The Survivors Speak`` presents over thirty pages of testimony from female victims and eyewitnesses to the violence in Gujarat. The report is based on investigations conducted at the end of March by a fact-finding team of prominent women`s rights activists. Among the report`s most significant findings is the fact that crimes against women, in both urban and rural areas, have been grossly underreported and under-recorded by the police. The report states:

Among the women surviving in relief camps, are many who have suffered the most bestial forms of sexual violence - including rape, gang rape, mass rape, stripping, insertion of objects into their body, stripping, molestations. A majority of rape victims have been burnt alive.

There is evidence of State and Police complicity in perpetuating crimes against women. No effort was made to protect women. No Mahila [women] Police [were] deployed. State and Police complicity in these crimes is continuing, as women survivors continue to be denied the right to file FIRs. There is no existing institutional mechanism in Gujarat through which women can seek justice.

Among the testimonies documented in the report is that of Saira from Panchmahals district, Gujarat. Her name has been changed by Human Rights Watch:

On the afternoon of February 28th to escape the violent mob, about 40 of us got on to a tempo [a vehicle]. My husband was driving the tempo... a Maruti car was blocking the road. A mob was lying in wait. [My husband] had to swerve. The tempo overturned. As we got out they started attacking us. People started running in all directions. Some of us ran towards the river. I fell behind as I was carrying my son. The men caught me from behind and threw me on the ground. [My son] fell from my arms and started crying. My clothes were stripped off by the men and I was left stark naked. One by one the men raped me. All the while I could hear my son crying. I lost count after 3. They then cut my foot with a sharp weapon and left me there in that state.

The report also cites the extent of Bajrang Dal and VHP participation in the attacks, adding that members of these organizations were distributing arms in rural areas as early as six months before the violence began.

An interim report by the People`s Union for Civil Liberties on ``women`s experiences and perspectives`` on the communal violence in Vadodara, based on data collected between February 27 and March 26, 2002, states:

The wide range of data collected reveals that the post-Godhra carnage has affected most women living in Vadodara in some way or the other. Lives of minority women have of course changed drastically. However, women from all communities are also affected by the reign of fear and the terror promoted by the state and the police. The Hindu women are caught in a fear psychosis that the ``other`` will attack. A lot of this has to do with the rumours that are being systematically spread through various pamphlets and booklets. Livelihoods of all poor, working class women have been affected. The situation in the minority households is far more serious, and hunger has become an acute problem because the minority men too cannot go out to work. The deep sense of betrayal that women feel by neighbours and children ``who grew up in front of my eyes [or in my aangan]`` is seen across classes.105

On April 24 India`s National Commission for Women (NCW) added its voice to those of the National Commission for Minorities and the National Human Rights Commission (see below) and accused the Gujarat government of ``failing to perform its constitutional duty.`` NCW expressed concern over the state of fear and insecurity in the state, particularly among women, adding that much more needed to be done for the relief and rehabilitation of women, particularly those that had lost family members or were victims of sexual violence.1

THE EFFECT ON CHILDREN AND YOUNG PEOPLE

The children of Gujarat have been severely affected and traumatized by the violence. In addition to the rape and murder of many children (see above), many bore witness to the death of their family members.107 Unclaimed and unidentified children`s bodies still crowd Ahmedabad`s morgues. Many children have also been orphaned or have suffered serious stabbing and burn injuries. In the aftermath of the violence, their education has been severely disrupted and little counseling is available to them to cope with the trauma of what they experienced. A Citizens` Initiative fact-finding team on violence against women in Gujarat (see above) spoke to young girls from Naroda Patia still trying to make sense of the rapes that they had witnessed. One girl interviewed said:

``Mein bataoon Didi`` (Shall I tell you?), volunteers a nine-year-old, ``Balatkaar ka matlab jab aurat ko nanga karte hain aur phir use jala deta hain.`` (Rape is when a woman is stripped naked and then burnt) And then looks fixedly at the floor. Only a child can tell it like it is. For this is what happened again and again in Naroda Patia - women were stripped, raped and burnt. Burning has now become an essential part of the meaning of rape.

Nineteen-year-old Sheikh S. from Mehndi Kuva, Shahpur, slum quarters in Ahmedabad, explained the long-term consequences of the attacks on children`s education and on the livelihood of affected families:

All the children`s education has been disrupted. All businesses are closed. All savings are gone. My parents are so old they cannot go back to work. I will surely have to leave my studies now and go to work. I was studying in the 11th standard. Still we won`t get the government jobs, those are given to Hindus. We will have to do labor.

Sheikh added that in the looting and burning of his home, his education certificates and other valuables were also destroyed: ``All my education certificates and medical reports that were in a suitcase were also destroyed. I have a blood disease and need those reports.``

In addition to destruction of educational records, students have been attacked while going to school. An eighteen-year-old student in Bharuch was pulled off a rickshaw and hit on the head and killed while returning home after taking a board exam.112 In Modasa, the college-aged son of a police inspector was stabbed and killed.113 The violence has also led to school exams being postponed in Ahmedabad, Vadodara, Bharuch, and Modasa.114 In addition, at Gujarat University, exams have not yet been completed because mobs have been successful in disrupting exams. The school plans on completing exams by having police vans stationed in sensitive areas.115 There are also disturbing reports that the same groups which collected information on Muslim shops and residences in preparation for attacks, are now openly collecting information on the number of Muslim children in each school in order to intimidate Muslim children from attending.116 Principals of English-medium schools in Gujarat have also been threatened with violence by VHP members if they did not expel Muslim students from their institutions. According to one report, parents are being told by school officials to remove their children from these schools on the grounds that their safety could not be guaranteed. The tactics are helping to ensure that Muslim children are confined to madrasas, or Muslim-run religious schools, where education is imparted in Hindi or Urdu-limiting severely the students` career prospects.

DESTRUCTION OF MOSQUES AND DURGAS:

Attackers also destroyed Dargahs, traditional meeting grounds for Hindus and Muslims and razed mosques. In some cases makeshift Hindu temples were erected in their place. In many places saffron flags, the signature flag of Hindu nationalist groups, were dug deep into mosque domes.118 Roughly twenty mosques were destroyed in Ahmedabad alone, many on March 1 during Friday prayers.119 Even historical monuments were not spared. According to the preliminary report of an Indian human rights fact-finding team:

The famous 500-year-old masjid in Isanpur, which was an ASI [Archeological Survey of India] monument, was destroyed with the help of cranes and bulldozers. The famous Urdu Poet Wali Gujarati`s dargah was also razed to the ground at Shahibaug in Ahmedabad. While a hanuman [a Hindu god] shrine was built over its debris initially, all that was removed overnight and the plot was [paved] and merged with the adjoining road. No authority claimed any knowledge about the entire episode. It is worth noting here that the Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation, which is responsible for the maintenance of all these structures, and for the building of roads, is run by the Congress [party] with a near two-thirds majority.



Noorani Masjid, a destroyed mosque in the Naroda Patia neighborhood of Ahmedabad. On February 28 at least sixty-five people were killed in Naroda Patia by a 5,000-strong mob aided by the police. The attackers killed, mutilated, and burned Muslim residents of the neighborhood, gang-raped women and girls, and torched and looted their homes. The Noorani Masjid was destroyed using exploding gas cylinders. © 2002 Smita Narula/Human Rights Watch



More problems and possibly violence may ensue in deciding how and whether to reconstruct the shattered mosques on these the new religious sites.

LOOTING:

The brutal killing and sexual violence was also accompanied by widespread looting and burning of homes. For many the violence became an excuse for daylight robbery in which even affluent Gujaratis took part. Most relief camp inhabitants are now homeless and completely dispossessed of all their belongings. Numerous victims testified to the extent of the theft and looting of their property both during the attacks and in the days that followed after they had fled for safety to makeshift camps.

A fifty-year-old woman named Fatu Bhen from Sanjay Nagar Nanachiloda, an area just outside of Ahmedabad, told Human Rights Watch, ``When they attacked we ran into the fields. For one day and one night we hid in the fields. Then we walked to Gandhinagar. My brother brought me here. We didn`t even have a chance to lock our doors. My brother went back to see and found that everything had been burned and looted.``


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A makeshift Hindu temple flying a saffron flag in Gomptipur, Ahmedabad. One of many erected in Muslim neighborhoods and on the site of destroyed mosques. The words painted on the wall say, in Hindi, “Lord Ram.” © 2002 Smita Narula/Human Rights Watch


Jinat A., a forty-year-old woman from Naroda Patia, told Human Rights Watch:

The riots came, we ran. We saw people getting cut up and burned. They used swords and sharp weapons. The first two days we were somewhere else and then we came to the camp. They stole all our things and burned our homes. They took our TVs, tapes, everything, even the beds. They took everything.... We have been here since March 1. We arrived at 3 a.m. Where will we go? The curfews are set. The police killed as well.

Thirty-year-old Noorjehan belonged to a relatively affluent Muslim family and lived in the government quarter of Mehndi Kuva. Out of a total of thirty-six homes, only three belonged to Muslims. The rest belonged to Hindus. Noorjehan suffered severe head injuries but survived the attack after being left for dead. Visibly in pain and with fresh bandages around her head, she told Human Rights Watch:

On February 28 we were all sitting at home and heard a noise, this was around noon. Our Hindu neighbor said, ``Don`t go out.`` If he said go then we could have run and saved ourselves. He was drunk. Everyone started to surround the house. They all had swords and pipes. I locked the doors. They then broke down the main door. They threw an iron pipe through the iron bars, which hit me across my eyes. I got dizzy. They then started to set fire to things. I tried to close all the doors as fast as I could, but they came in and hit me with pipes all over on my head, my legs. They were about to take out a sword and cut me with it. But one Hindu had pity on me I guess and said, ``Don`t cut her, set her on fire.`` When I heard that I fainted. When I fainted they took off all of my jewels. They were screaming, ``Ram bol.`` [Say Ram]. I think they then put me on top of the fire. My twelve-year-old niece dragged me off and threw water on me to save me. I was covered in blood. I had sent my brothers away; they went to hide in another Hindu`s house. They thought I was dead so they moved on to the next Muslim house. My mother took me inside the house. A Dalit scavenger brought the doctor to me. They gave me an injection because I was going to hemorrhage. Finally the family doctor came. I was vomiting for two days. The police were nowhere. They did not help anyone. When we called they said, ``You protect yourselves.`` The police are only two minutes away from our home.

After Noorjehan and her family left for the camp they learned that their home had been looted:

We contacted this camp by mobile phone and people here sent a car for us and brought us here. After we came our house was looted. They didn`t even leave our animals. My mother was so fond of raising those animals. They took them, cut them, and ate them: our sheep, our chickens. There was a temple in front of our house. They ate the animals there the next day. They took our gold, our silver. We had four safes in the house. All of them were looted. They took our cutlery as well.

Noorjehan believed her neighbors were involved in the attacks and had long been participating in meetings to plot attacks against Muslims:

In previous riots, we used to close the main gates to the residential quarters, but not this time. The people inside were mixed up with this so they left the big gates open. They were always meeting about how to go after Muslims but we never believed it would happen to us, we have been there for so many years. I can`t sleep properly. They are enemies of humanity. They are complete monsters and devils.

Noorjehan and her family arrived at the camp on the evening of March 1: ``We left even without our shoes on. No one has come to ask us anything about who attacked us or how much was taken. On March 2 or 3 we filed a complaint. My mother went back on March 16 to see what had become of our home.``127 Her mother added: ``I went to see if any of my animals were left. There was nothing left. The people were still roaming the area with swords.``

Unlike residents of Naroda Patia, Noorjehan very much wanted to return to her home but lamented that it was too unsafe. ``If we got security then at least we could go back home,`` she said.

Rehman Pata, Noorjehan`s twenty-year-old brother described the reaction of the police when he approached them for help during the attack on his home:

I ran to the police station, I fought the crowds to get through. Two constables told me, ``You go and we`ll follow you.`` But they never came. I came home and saw that my sister had been hit by a pipe.... These were Shiv Sena and VHP workers. We know the names of some of the people who did this. After the attack one of them made a call and told the person he was talking to move on to the next Muslim home. They were coordinating everything on their cell phones. We filed a complaint against them. They didn`t leave anything, even my childhood toys.... One of our Hindu neighbors told the mob not to burn our home otherwise theirs would catch on fire as well. He said, ``Don`t burn it just loot it.``

Nineteen-year-old Sheikh S., also from Mehndi Kuva, lived in a slum quarter adjacent to the government quarter. He told Human Rights Watch that his neighbors were involved in the attacks and that police gave them their blessing to loot Muslim shops and homes:

It all started at 10 a.m. on February 28. They came after the Muslim shops. Around 8 p.m., they attacked my quarters. They were screaming, ``Jai Shri Ram.`` They opened the locks with their iron pipes. They burned all the beddings but took all the nice things. They did not set fire to our house because it was a flat system and Hindu homes would also have been affected. We were calling the police all day. The police said, ``You help yourselves, we are getting pressure from above, we cannot help you.`` We called fifty to a hundred times. Around 2:00 or 2:30 p.m. I saw a police inspector shake hands with the attackers and say, ``You can loot peacefully, we won`t do anything. We are with you.``

Sheikh listed the names of those involved in the attacks, many of whom he recognized. He then added:

We filed a complaint and wrote down all the names. During the attack, thirty to thirty-five went to hide in a Goanese Christian home after 6 p.m. Then the crowd surrounded that home and said, ``You send them out or we will kill you too.`` After that we came here to the camp with police escorts. We called the camp on our mobile phone and they sent the police to us to bring us here. We arrived March 1 at 1 a.m. We then called the Christian family from here and they told us the crowds started looting the homes on March 1. Our dowry, marriage money, machines, etc. all of them were looted. They even took the two lights and the wiring and the fan. They took everything. They took my brother`s new cycle but set my old one on fire.132

Sheikh also sustained head injuries during the attacks and still wore a dressing on the wounds at the time of the interview three weeks later: ``At one point they surrounded me and started shouting, `Miya, Miya` [Muslim, Muslim]. They started throwing stones and I ran upstairs.133

THE ROLE OF THE MEDIA:

While the national Indian press has played an important role in exposing the violence and official neglect or misconduct, sectors of the local press have been accused of inciting the violence.

On April 5, 2002, the People`s Union for Civil Liberties and Shanti Abhiyan, both nongovernmental organizations, issued a comprehensive analysis of the role of the media during the violence in Gujarat. Among the papers analyzed is the Vadodara edition of Sandesh, a Gujarati newspaper. The report concludes that the major effort of Sandesh for the period under review ``has been to feed on the prevalent anti-Muslim prejudices of its Hindu readership and provoke it further by sensationalizing, twisting, mangling and distorting news or what passes for it.``134

Sandesh published especially inflammatory headlines, pictures, and stories the day after the Godhra attack. For example, a front page report on February 28, 2002, read: ``AVENGE BLOOD WITH BLOOD.`` Another headline during the first week of March, when Gujarati Muslims were returning from their pilgrimage (Haj) to Mecca, stated: ``HINDUS BEWARE: HAJ PILIGRIMS RETURN WITH A DEADLY CONSPIRACY.`` In fact, most Muslims returning from Haj were so terrified of being attacked that they sought and received escorts home by army officials.

ATTACKS AGINST THE MEDIA

According to the Paris-based Reporters Sans Frontières (RSF), some twenty journalists and media workers were attacked by the police on April 7, 2002, in Gandhi Ashram, Ahmedabad while two peace demonstrations were disrupted by members of the Gujarat Yuva Morcha, a youth section of the BJP. A cameraman for the private television station NDTV was told by a deputy police superintendent to stop filming. When he asked why, he was struck on the head and later was admitted to the hospital`s intensive care unit. Witnesses say police then attacked the journalists, seriously injuring several others.RSF adds that a journalist for the Asian Age was beaten up by the Gujarat police while interviewing Muslim women who had complained of police atrocities.

The Government of Gujarat`s Response
The Gujarat government, and in particular its chief minister, has responded to severe criticism regarding its posture during the violence by either tacitly justifying the attacks or asserting that they were quickly brought under control. On March 1, Chief Minister Modi confidently declared that he would control the ``riots resulting from the natural and justified anger of the people.``142 ``Every action has an equal and opposite reaction,`` Modi told reporters. ``The five crore (50 million) people of Gujarat have shown remarkable restraint under grave provocation,`` referring to the Godhra massacre.143

The Gujarat government`s official report of the events, presented to the National Human Rights Commission, includes the following accounts, as reported in the Hindu:

The gory details of the Godhra incident, depicting charred bodies through the electronic media, aroused passions of the people of Gujarat on a very large scale. In the wake of the call for ``Gujarat bandh`` and the possible fall-out of the Godhra incident, the State Government took all possible precautions. However, on account of widespread reporting in the media, incidents of violence on a large-scale started occurring in Ahmedabad, Baroda... Crowds that assembled in the towns were huge and consisted of higher and middle class people. It became difficult even to implement the curfew. Due to timely measures taken by the State Government, major incidents were contained within 72 hours and normality and confidence of the public were restored.144

Tellingly, the report does not once mention the role of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad or the Bajrang Dal, whose members have been named as leaders of the violence in police reports (FIRs), and grossly undercounts the number of mosques and dargahs destroyed and makeshift Hindu temples erected in their place.145

The appointment of retired high court judge K. G. Shah to head a Gujarat state commission of inquiry into possible police inaction or direct complicity and administrative failure during Godhra and its aftermath has also raised concern. Shah`s close association with the BJP government, including his participation on a panel of lawyers representing the state government before the Supreme Court, has left many questioning his ability to conduct an impartial investigation. Dr. Shakeel Ahmed of the Cell for Legal Help and Guidance for the Islamic Relief Committee told the Times of India: ``It`s better if someone from outside is appointed. The state government is involved and is a party to what happened.``146 Even if the Shah commission`s investigations are impartial, his perceived partiality will likely influence victims` willingness to come forward. The history of government-appointed commissions of inquiry in the state, and the country, also raise doubts as to whether the commission`s recommendations will be followed.147 The recommendations of two commissions of inquiry established following the 1969 and 1985 riots have yet to be implemented.




A room in the Dariyakhan Ghummat relief camp in Ahmedabad housing over fifty women and children. The camp held 5,100 people and is one of approximately one hundred relief camps in Gujarat, where 98,000 people, a great majority of them Muslim, have been displaced by the violence. © 2002 Smita Narula/Human Rights Watch