Bhaiya, Malhar Sunao

#178 by hamid_81 on August 26, 2004 6:39pm PT

Norah Joans is hot! I have heard a lot about Begum Rais Khan as well- she is supposed to be even hotter. Have you heard her moan in Shankara when her Sitar is played by Rais Khan`s tabalchi??

BalluKhan. Your language doesn`t befit a Ustad of your caliber. But I gues you are just one of those low-life randi baaz sort of people who don`t care about their outlook. But good! That tells me alot about you. And please I unlike you have a girlfriend to spend my nights comfortably with rather than jerk off anywhere in anyway. You on the other hand might try dating. Or better still Johnson and Johnson baby lotion. Helps alot. LOL. Secondly I would love to have a go at Nora Jones the ill-legitimate daughter of Ravi Shankar. Ill-legitimate? Hmmm I wonder. The Hindu Pandits were supposed to be ``good``. Ravi Shankar is really ``Hindu-trash``. And you are ``Muslim-trash``, who should only be discarded out of the society.
And yeah, I still have something that works and I can jerk off with it. How about you? How old are you?

Ok Noora Pehalwan- you can jerk off on your fantasies about your Sitar Kushti with Ravi Shankar on this Board and proclaim yourself to be “Rustum-e-Hind”.

Lol!!

Unfortunately i don`t have the equipment to record a taan.

And Mr. harish_hyd. Yes that is why people take notice of my playing and laugh at Ravi Shankar. Not the ones who don`t know anything about music, and neither the ones who know Ravi Shankar becaue of his association with beatles. But the ones who know what is being played and how it is being played. The truth is Ravi Shankar sucks and so does is his daughter. He is just not good and there are definetly far far better sitarists out there. Even a ten year old can make better coherence with sitar.

#173 by ballukhan on August 19, 2004 8:43pm PT

So Noora Pehalwaan, where is your best Taan??

#172 by hamid_81

[``a speed crazed zombie with the Sitar. `` What a great term you have given me balluKhan to describe Ravi Shankar. He really is exactly what you said. Whereas I know different kinds of taans, how to play them, and also how to sing them. So when I play it is coherent, and makes sense.]

Is that why the world sits up and takes notice when you play the sitar, while it simply ignores Ravishankar?

Stop making an ass of yourself.

#172 by hamid_81 on August 19, 2004 9:58am PT

Let us see how good you are? Give me a link to download your fastest and best tan.

``a speed crazed zombie with the Sitar. `` What a great term you have given me balluKhan to describe Ravi Shankar. He really is exactly what you said. Whereas I know different kinds of taans, how to play them, and also how to sing them. So when I play it is coherent, and makes sense. I have had the previlege of getting daad once from Ustad Rais Khan, on one of my ``Badhar Taan`` in Jaijaiwanti, in a live concert, twice from Imrat Khansaheb, on ``chut ki taans`` also during a live concert performance, and many a times from Shafaat Khan for playing Gamak ki Taan in Chandni Kedara. So I know what I am talking about. But just by listening to Ravi Shankar you can see, he just doesn`t know how to do it. Baba Allauddin taught him, how to play Sarod on the sitar. All his Baaj is ``dir dir``. All Mizrab. Nothing else. Now Rais Khan, and his baaj is solid. From taans to Mizrabs to phirat, it lacks in nothing. I don`t say it. The world does. And the world is right. I can understand your professional jealousy BalluKhan. And I feel sorry for you. But alas! Accept the facts. You are no match for him. Whether he sings ghazals, or plays the sitar, he will still be better known than you are in every way,more respected and loved by everyone who knows him.

I would just like to add to what has been said by ballukhan about Rais Khan being forced to put aside his sitar and take the help of a harmonium (better known as BAJA in these parts) for the sake of surviving in Pakistan.

It is not only `visitors` like Rais Khan that have been neglected by listeners in Pakistan, but also its local treasures, to the extent that that have been forced to take up other occupations just to earn a decent living. A good example is that of Ustad Saleem Khan Poonchwalay. He is an accomplished and award winning Sitar player. Having won many a heart with his mesmerizing performances at the All Pakistan Music Conference held at Lahore annually. He has to earn his living teaching girls the Sitar at a local college and also going house to house giving Sitar lessons.

Very often we commit the mistake of blaming the governments for such distressing lives led by most artists, what we completely ignore is the fact that each one of us can contribute positively to the plight of these musicions, not by squabbling over which launda can beat up whom.

Furthermore, its music guys, not the NOORA QUSHTI that someone should be beating somebody with the speed of their paltas, balampat/durat ki gut etc.

#168 by hamid_81 on August 14, 2004 11:15pm PT
It`s Ok if you want to trade abuses- Rais Khan is a sorry figure in Pakistan and if you want to deny this fact by abusing every one else makes you are cut into a sorry figure too.
And how did you assume I have ANY association with Ravi Shankar?? ofcourse your immature and small brain plays all those imaginary tricks with you by automatically branding those who oppose RAis Khan`s decision to migrate to Pakistan as ``spies`` of RAvi Shankar!! I have laughed at these petty politicking by these musicians- and I can only laugh at your level of understanding!
Regarding a Sitarist teaching a sarangiya- figure out how Annapurna taught Hari Prasad or Allahuddin Khan Saheb taught RAvi Shankar Sitar or Ali Akbar teaching Nikhil Banrejee or Imrat Khan teaching his son Wajahat??
And what is this Kushti and ``beating`` an 80 year old man you talk about?? There are hundreds of Sitarists in India who can do ``dir dir`` faster than any of you speed crazed maniacs- but that is NOT Classical music.
And now I think I am wasting my time trying to educate an ill mannered and un-couth kid who thinks knows all that he needs to know about classical music and acts like a speed crazed zombie with the Sitar.

#167 by Banjaara on August 14, 2004 4:00pm PT
Putting things back in context that comment was about Rais Khan Saheb`s singing capabilities- and it was a sad reminder on how he has to keep aside his Sitar and take to the besura harmonium in order to survive in Pakistan.

And I am ashamed that he is a musician, and a classical one for that matter. BalluKhan and his likes only lick the soles of those who are more influential than they are, associate themselves with Ravi Shankar and earn a living. One thing I can`t understand is that Pandit Ramesh Mishra the sarangi Nawaz, has never learned Sarangi from Ravi Shankar but calls himself his Shagird. Probably he has never met Ravi Shankar, but because Ravi Shankar is influential and can get him a reward he associates himself with RS. So does loser musicians like BalluKhan. I can guarantee any new ``launda`` from even India can beat RS and his terrible daughter in one go.

ballukhan # 156.

[In fact Rais Khan Saheb is no match even for the kids from SaregamaPa serial on Zee TV.]

This kind of arrogance would not sit easily on a Ravi Shankar or Vilayat Khan or even Baba Allauddin Khan. Ballukhan Saheb, you must be one heck of a Ustaad. I bow to your greatness.

``And again BalluKhan don`t take ``panga`` with the Punjabis. The ``anjam`` will be ``Nanga``. ..``

The ajaam is already there for all to see- you have already exposed yourself publically by resorting to such abuses!!

#164 by hamid_81 on August 13, 2004 3:19pm PT
I was interested in understanding what has the efforts of people like Mehdi Hasan Saheb has done in popularizing Raagdari in Pakistan. I just got a lecture on a common place information on how some folk forms of Northern Indo-PAk region follow raagdari music.

Coming back to Fuzon, the point that they are good is NOT the issue- they may be the best in PAkistan. My objections are that you are trying to exaggerate the actual impact of their `using` raagdar music to sell their records. This is just a commerical ploy to sell more records. I do not think any one singing taans or taking complex murkis or gamaks in a pop, rap con-fusion would `revive` raagdari music. It may rev up the sales by making it appear more `Desi` , `Ethnic` or target the Indian NRI market effectively. To `revive` classical music you will have to have Classical music `EMBEDDED`` in your culture and up bringing. You would have to formally introduce courses in Classical music in your schools and universities, you would have to allow Indian musicians to play in Pakistan, appear on PTV and RAdio on regular basis, you would have to allow Indian classical music societies which exist in every small town in India to organize Karnatic and Hindustani Classical music concerts. And finally you would have to ensure that people like you come out in open and protest when the mullahs stage anti -music demonstrations.

And to say that some regions sing songs in Raags like Sorath or Maand is to forget that folk and classical have both enriched each other- they are different in their intent but their musical structure may be borrowed from each other . However, most of the times it is the popular and folk music that has borrowed heavily from classical music (the ``Desi`` versus ``Margi`` distinction) - but I do not think that would `revive` classical music. None of these folk `tunes` follow the exactness and the discipline of the Classical music. In classical music every taan is an alankar, an embellishment which highlightens the beauty of the textual structure, and are structured pieces. Unfortunately many think that Taan-Alankaars are to be produced by doing ``YA YA`` with their JABADA like most of the crazed Paki-Punjabi musicians do.

Ballu Khan. Your knowledge about Pakistan lacks in a lot of things. Sindhis, have their own Raag system and they sing things like Kafis in Sorath, Des and Maandh. Big Sufi Saints of Sindh and Baluchistan have documented these Ragas and raginis. But that is a big discussion which I would prefer to have with a musician of a better caliber than you. Preferably of a better historical and cultural sense as well. Now to Fuzon. Again I am standing by what I said. They are good and that is the truth. If they are so easy to sing, then everybody would be singing them. But when youngsters try to sing the song they are stuck. That is when they ask what is there in the song that they don`t have. And then they are told that it is classical music that they lack. After all the film Industry in India played a big role in popularizing classical music in songs. Quite a few Bandishes and Ragaas were distorted and non-classical singers were asked to sing classical songs, so people would like them. The same in Pakistan. An effective technique. Because really nobody wants to Pay BalluKhan to sit there and sing painfully slow. To everybody it would be nonsense. Now somebody playing flashy taans and explaining what they are doing would make more sense. That is why we get called for concerts and artists like BalluKhan, well spend time on chowk on baseless Paki bashing. BalluKahn Sheb, your hatred for Pakistan is justified, just like my displeasure towards India is. But also try to do something constructive. I am beginning to think you are really a low-life.

I support jang in the sense that the whole classical music is on a revival. Of course we should forget about the Maharaja courts. There will be no more classical music that way. But what we should expect is Music Directors like A.R.Rehman and M.M.Kreem from India and Sajjad Ali, Fuzon and Ustad Nissar Hussain Khan from Pakistan blending in classical music in ordinary Filmi songs so that people get some understanding of these things. I think this is a positive revival. And again BalluKhan don`t take ``panga`` with the Punjabis. The ``anjam`` will be ``Nanga``. For your info listen to Adana by Ustad fateh Ali Khan and his sons. People like you just wish they could some day sing like this. So please be construtive, and utilize your time properly.

ballu and hamid you guys should collaberate on an article, preferably with some clips.

i must say that classical music (hindustani and carnatic) is on a massive revival in india,strongly suppported by all classes, and not associated with mirasis anymore.

#161 by hamid_81 on August 12, 2004 10:16am PT
Fuzon reviving classical music through fusion or Pop music? Now all this is just a passing fad- tomorrow we would suddenly have people rapping in Raags and then claiming that it would revive classical music? or we would have some rababiya from Afghanistan playing with the rock band and claiming that it would revive the interest in rabab! And what has Mehdi Hasan Saheb`s efforts done any good to our Baluchs and Pushto audiences? Can anybody tell what is the level of appreciation of classical music in those areas? Let us forget the Punjabi audiences whose obsession for fast music has already brought the downfall of classical music through its besura and be-sar-paer taanbazi.

dost-mittar, things are not so bad after all in Pakistan. Yearly Music conference takes place in Lahore. Then there is this organization in karachi, called Sapurna :
http://www.sampurna.sdnpk.org/

whihc is doing alot to promote classical music. From Qawwals to sitar nawaz`s to singers, it is promoting every form of classical and light classical music that has been dormant in Pakistan. If we don`t take baaby steps, you can`t get to the strides part. So I think it is not a lost cause. Youngsters still learn classical music, and sing and play instruments. There has been a huge revival of ``good music`` in Pakistan, with the new Pop singers and light singers, that have come up on the scene. It is easy to disregard them, but sometimes they do a good job. There is this bad called Fuzon, and the lead singer is the nephew of Ustad Amanat Ali Khan, ShafQat Amanat Ali. I have heard him sing classical khayals which he still does. But he came into the popo scene. I don`t know how to categorize it, but it is different from the dominant pop. Because he has composed all his songs in raagas. Some of his songs are named on ragaas. In an interview, he said that our youth needs to understand classical music and appreciate it. So to make them understand this divine art we need to present it in a way whihc they would be able to comprehend. Some of the taans and ``murkis`` that he does are totally beyond any singer of his cader whether a khyaliya or a Popiya. I suggest you listen to some of his songs:
1. Khamach.
2. Madhuvanti.
3. Malhar
4. Annkhon kay sagar.
Listen to these, and you will know that slowly people are getting a taste of good music back.
Slowly but surely. If you can then also get Shafqat`s new recording of Jaijaiwanti and Kedara, a khayal recording.
regards
Hamid

ballukhan:
Thanks! Now, you know how much I know:-):
BTW Gaud Malhar seemed to be a favourite of the late music director Roshan. That particular song was from the film ``Barsaat ki Raat`` but he also used it in other films.

hamid_81:
That song was from the film ``Basant Bahar``. You will probably like some other songs from that film too, esp. ``Ketaki gulab juhi champak`` by Bhimsen Joshi.

Re. the decline of classical music in Pakistan, I think my memory is longer and it is not attributable to Benazir or Sharif. For that you have to go way back. In the old Punjab, as elsewhere on the subcontinent except Maharashtra and Bengal, the patronage of classical music was limited to durbars and did not penetrate into the middle class, which made fun of classical musicians as mirasis. After the partition, the official patronage also was denied to them as Radio Pakistan stopped playing their songs, claiming that they invoked hindu gods and godesses (which they frequently did!). This is why people like Bade Ghulam Ali had to move to India for lack of support. After that, only semi-classical forms which were usable in ghazals and qawaalis survived and were well exploited by people like Mehdi Hasan and Saabri Brothers. Recently, there has been some revival of classical music (there was a conference in Karachi earlier this year) as Musharraf has decided to confront the mullahs. But it may be too late to revive an art form which remained dormant for two generations.

Dost-
I just hear a 30 sec clip of the song on the net - it has clear signs of `Gaud Malhar` of the type that uses Komal Gandhar and which is mostly sung by the Dhrupadiyas. However, the use of Shuddh Gandhara gives a feeling of Ramdasi Malhar. However, the treatment appears to be that of Gaud Malhar except that the popular version of Gaud Malhar in Khayals does not use Komal Gandhar (g).
Miya ki malhar uses the komal gandhar in this pattern
SNnDNS,MRPMPgMgMRS
Bol re papi hara -Vani Jayaram.
Ek Bus Tu hi Nahi (Shahzad`s Ghazal) sung by Mehdi Hasan,
Khushi Ne Mujh Ko Thukaraya- Ghazal sung by Akhtari Bai.

Gaud Malhar
Garajat Barasat Saavan Ayo- Some Late Song

Let me listen to the song in entirety then I can tell you the exact type of Malhar.

BalluKhan Saheb. I know there are more than 4 Kedaras, and in fact I know there names, Chalas and Some Bandishes. I also know the many Shankaras and Malhars. I know what there is to be known. And on a politer note, none of your Indian youngsters can be a match for a Ustad who has given his life for music. They are not even a match for his younger son. But you saying so, doesn`t make it so and neither does my saying so, makes it so. It is what the world believes. And it believes that Rais Khan is brilliant, no matter what the ``other`` sitartists/singers say.
Now to dost-mittar ji`s comment. I haven`t heard the song. If you tell me the name of the movie I will look it up and listen to it. In movie songs, ususally the base is either some raag or chalan of a raag, but then the composition differs slightly off, if the composer so desires. Just like the song, ``Raina Beeti Jaye``. The first part is Raag Todi but then the antara is totally not-Todi. So to say perfectly in whihc raag a song has been composed is very difficult.
Now to Bhairavi. It is extremely Popular. But that makes it a challenge to sing or play. Then people started varying it. Now we have different sort of Bhiravi`s, like Sindh Bhairavi, Sudh Bhairavi(Listen to Abdul Karim Khansaheb`s brilliant Sudh Bhairavi), Jangla Bhairavi ( Bade Ghulam Ali Khan`s Naina More Taras rahiyo, Aja Balam Pardesi). I am getting late for a meeting. But once I come back I wil write in detail about Bhairavi and its many facets. And we should also wait patiently for a reply from KhanSaheb, as whatever prevails, he knows more than I do. And that is a fact.
H

#146 by hamid_81 on August 11, 2004 6:01am PT
``............... composed ghazals in Ragas, and sang them. In every concert of his in which he sang ghazals, he elaborately discussed the raag. Thus with his efforts, classical music revived in Pakistan....``

In fact Rais Khan Saheb is no match even for the kids from SaregamaPa serial on Zee TV. Some of these kids in it are brilliant. And none of the PAki Sitarists can ever match the talented and aspiring youngsters we have in India- we have a loads of them in india.

Hamid

There are more than 4 Kedars! Now you will have to say ``please`` before I even tell you their names.

ballu, hamid:
Both of you seem to belong to the same biradari, even if different gharanas. So, why this hostility? Those of us who are classically-challenged are learning something from your jugalbandi. So, to change the tone (tune?), here is a question for either of you:

I am just coming back from an awesome oddissi dance performance by an Indian troupe with live music on flute, violin, mridingam, etc. On the way back, someone put on an old cassette with one of my favourite songs from the film Basant Bahar, ``Bhaiy bhanjana vandana sun hamari``, sung by Manna Dey. Has either of you heard this song? If so, do you know whether it is in raag Bhairavi or Kaal Bhairavi (I hope it`s either of the two)? If you know, could you please tell me the difference between the two raagas in non-musical terms, e.g., with the help of examples of popular songs based on these raagas? Thanks.

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#151 by ballukhan

BalluKhan the idiot, Mehdi Hasan has not been singing since the last 5 years because of his health. And yes I agree any randi-baaz Mirasi from Delhi taught by you can probably think he is better than rais Khan, but I don`t think that is true. I really don`t feel like having this discussion with a fail, incompetent and stupid musician, who doesn;t have a life. Start a Kabab Shop. You will end up making more money. Bu OOOPPS! I am sorry you can`t even start that. And that reminds me. You Eat Beef?

#149 by ballukhan on August 11, 2004 7:14am PT
``So he lost Madan Mohan. ``. I think Madan Mohan lost Rais Khan.
Well, somebody said `` Jahalat chupi rahe tu achi lagti hai``. I gues that is a good reason for you to justify why you are not popular. Secondly, as regards me, I am good at what I do. I play., people like me. I tour around the United States and have fun. Play, enjoy and listen to good music. I think you should cease being a ``kunway ka Maindak`` and learn about what the world is all about. You will not become a good artist by going bersek on me. You will become good by practising humility as you have said. And I don`t think you know who I have learned from.
I have learned from Ustad Sajid Hussain. Ustad Rais Khan, Ustad Asad Ali Khan(Beenkar) a true Dhurpadiya, who knows what he is talking about. Sublime and beyond anything and everything, Ustad Imrat Khan and his youngest son, Ustad Shafaatullah Khan. I am not stupid and know what I am talking about. But I just dislike you for your utter stupidity, and pig-headedness. Really man, get a life. Go sing something. Bashing Rais Khan and me will not get you anywhere. You still be obscure and a failure, which you very much are.
I pitty you, for your condition. If not you then has any student of yours been popular? Anything? Well, I think it is time in your life when you should think about doing something substantial, instead of bashing other Ustads, if not for yourself then for the art you practise.
FYI: Kedara was one of the first Raag`s taught to me and I know whihc Madham is in Kedar. Oh I am sorry, I see you forgot to mention. there are two in Kedar. LOL
H

#146 by hamid_81 on August 11, 2004 6:01am PT
``............... composed ghazals in Ragas, and sang them. In every concert of his in which he sang ghazals, he elaborately discussed the raag. Thus with his efforts, classical music revived in Pakistan....``

Now you are making stories. What do you think Mehdi Hasan Saheb has been doing since last 50 years in Pakistan. He has composed and sung Ghazals in virtually every possible raags including some rare KArnatic ones as well. In fact he was the one who used to sing sargams in midst of a Ghazals - and yet it did not much to revive classical music in Pakistan. And what about the PAkistani admirers of Akhtari Bai? So do not give this crap about Rais Khan singing Ghazals in Raags has revived classical music in Pakistan. Even an ordinary son of mirasi from old Delhi can sing better than Rais Khan! THese stupid stories of yours have been constructed just to hide that fact regarding the pathetic state of affairs in Pakistan of the classical music and musicians.

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#146 by hamid_81 on August 11, 2004 6:01am PT

From what all I can understand you are just a kid who thinks doing `dir dir` very fast on the sitar like an junkie Rock guitarist is what Indian Classical Music is all about. Pathetic!! Go and try to understand which Madhyams are used in Rag Kedar and how the madhyams of Raga Shuddha Sarang are different from that of Rag Kedar. I do not intend comparing with Rais Khan since I practice a different style and I do not need to sell my cassettes or sing in the birthday parties in order to survive. I practice music as an expressive art form rathar than as a fad or a profession. So why I am not known is something that is besides the point.
But I seriously think that you have been given the worst `Taleem`- you are `Be-KAeda`` and a ``Jahilya`` because the first leson that we learn is HUMILITY which you lack miserably.
You are arrogant and full of hatred for others and I can see that you can never learn classical Indian music in its true spirit from any teacher- you may be able to pick up some finger techniques but would remain like a pig who only knows how to move forward in one direction and would eternally do `dir dir` thinking you have mastered classical music.
The point about madan mohan episode is just that Rais Khan could not understand what the other person implied- and he did not wait for any clarification. So he lost Madan Mohan.

well, thats a good article...... but you should know one thing... Its not only what happened to muslims in Hindustan but also to hindus in Pakistan. I personally know an elder who is proud to claim that he killed more than 50 hindus during independence riots. Interesting fact is that a whole hindu muhalla in old lahore was burnt down to ashes along with its residents...

Now, I am not saying that it was muslims who were at fault. What i am saying is that things were happening at both ends. Maybe this is the meaning of war which engulfs every human being without knowing them. I remember qudrat-ullah-shahab quoting that at the time of independence everyone made its own parameters to serve the country. and so the era continues...

What important is that we should know what happened on both ends and condemn it for the humanity sake. Representing one side of picture sometimes increase the anger and hate for the other side. And most of all, though being a Pakistani i love Pakitan but find it important to live and let others live.....

I dont want to criticize you but want to get your attention to something which i found important as i always go around listening what happened to muslims and nothing else.... Facts go much different......

BalluKhan.
Now you are no better than anyone. Making small talk about a great artist. Well,Ustad Rais Khan, has sung ghazals. No disagreement there. But this is also true that every year in Karachi there is one major concert of his, with at least 50000 people in attendance. In addition, all year round his concerts are held, privately. Why did he start singing ghazals, is because during the reign of Nawaz Sharif, and Benazir, the arts were not liked. These two still thought, that music was the thing for ``Randi-Baazi``, like what used to happen all over India, during the ``daur`` of the Nawabs. Wine, music, and women. That was all they did. But that was not true. So break that assumption, he composed ghazals in Ragas, and sang them. In every concert of his in which he sang ghazals, he elaborately discussed the raag. Thus with his efforts, classical music revived in Pakistan. As I said, Pakistan is not Haven, but Ustad Rais Khan has brought around a big change. Actually a tremoundous change.
Now about the Madan Mohan songs. Have you heard, the sitar in `` Nainon Main Badra Chaye``, and in the introduction of the movie Pakeezah. If you think so high about yourself, or about the music you play, then why hasn`t anyone asked you to play anything in any movie? Why haven`t you come out with a single record? Whyaren`t you popular. Doesn`t that tell you something? That you are no match for these giants, and instead of dis-respecting them you should just shut up!! Accept the fact that you can never play the sitar like Rais Khan and can never be as famous as him. So why sweat?
Now for you ``Taleem``. Well, if I want ``Taleem`` from you I will ask you for it. As they say
``Pani Piyo Chaan kay, Guru banaye jaan kay``. I don`t think you are worthy of teaching me anything.
I heard Pandit Ravi Shankar the other day. I don`t know what that dude plays. His pieces are all composed, 3-4 minutes pieces. Well, if you hear a recording, it makes sense. Now, there was no alaap, he increased the tempo in the 3rd Avardi, and went into Jhala, in the next 5 minutes. No Taans, just high paced confusion. His daughter is worst than him. And I was checking out her website, I saw her and her half-sister Nora Jones picture with a tatoo on their bum. LOL. Since when did the daughters of ``respected`` Pandits started showing their bums?

Stuka

I fully endorse the thesis that Pakistani muslims and the Hindutvadis share the same agenda. One wants to see India engulfed in communal riots just to repudiate his TNT roots, the other wants to push the logic of TNT to its extreme conclusions of ethnic cleansing of Indian territory. Both are one and the same. So when Hamid wants to watch the fun of muslim holocaust over the TV he is wishing that his TNT roots be proved- so that his nebulous national identity which is at great peril in the 21st century gets reasserted . In the same way, the Hinduvadis would also love to watch the muslim holocaust so that they can assert that India is a Hindu counterpart of Pakistan- i.e TNT in reverse.
So, for me both these guys are to be treated with same contempt and derision. I know we can take care of the Hinduvadis in India because democracy has ensured that the votes of IMs always count and their interests are taken care of. I am more wary of these Paki TNT idiots like Hamid who are ready to become suicidal Jehadis and militarize the conflicts which can be peacefully resolved in India through democratic means. The fact remains that it is in the interests of the Hinduvadis that the riots and counter riots occur so that the polarization and consolidation of the hindu votes is complete. So, it is clear that these TNT idiots like Hamid or UrsTruly remain the clear and present danger for the IMs.

Plats8

This is an interesting anecdote about Rais Khan:

http://www.indianmelody.com/mmohanarticle1.htm

``My father was so fond of Rais Khan that when there was a musical soiree at our home, he would invite Rais Khan to play the sitar. My father was too embarrassed to discuss money with his friend, so he told his manager to ask Rais Khan what kind of money he should be paid. Rais Khan took tremendous umbrage. A few days later, he called up my father and said there`s a wedding at a friend`s house and would my father like to sing there. If yes, how much money would he charge?

My father was very, very hurt. He decided that Rais Khan would never again play in his songs. From that day onwards, in 1972 to the day he died, the sitar disappeared from Madan Mohan`s tunes. ``

P.S- Yes, Mohammad Khan was a Beenkar.

Hamid_81,

``Millinos of people, even spies of Ravi Shankar and other stupid people, come and
listen to him. His techniques and baaj is beayond everybody.``

Now that requires a good LOL. Just curious how many spies Ravi Shankar has in his
payroll. Perhaps he is outsourcing the espionage to other disgruntled sitar players....
man, this is beyond juvenile.

Ballukhan #136,

What did Mohammad Khan play ? Veena ? I always thought he was a sitar player as
well, and of the Imdad-khani gharana to boot.

By the way, can someone please tell me how many innocent Kashmiri civilians
the Indian government has killed ? I keep seeing all sorts of numbers - it used to
hover around 70,000 for a while; now Urstruly claims 80,000 and malik99 100,000 on
the same day. Clearly, both cannot be true, and some bean-counter must be keeping
tabs. Before we start acting virtuous, let us get the numbers right.

Stuka,
You may be able give me a small help for one of my friends. Are you prem vohra of Sulekha?

stuka # 112 - here is your reasoning why I should not talk about the plight of muslims in India - ``You are Pakistani.``

actually, that is all the more reason for me to talk about it. Pakistan, by a stroke of fortune or misfortune, shares a border with India. Whatever happens on the eastern border has an impact on our senses and sensitivities. Treatment of Indian Muslims is not an ``internal affair``. Besides the brotherly love we feel for them, there is also these international human rights treaties that India is subject to (as selectively as they are enforced). The ``secular`` India cannot hide the blood on its hand of 100,000 muslim kashmiris, several thousand sikhs, Asaamese, and other minorities.

These are FACTS. And the only way Indians seem to deal with these facts is by mud slinging or by doing cut / paste of lengthy articles bashing Pakistan.

Stuka, its time that people like you accept that this evil exists in India. It needs to be exorcized.

Now before you get into the diatribe of ``what about minorities in Pakistan``, I just want to remind you again that this board is in regards to the treatment of Muslims in India. There can be another board to talk about the injustices in pakistan.

Thanks Chulbuliimli. Well, for starters you have mentioned all these problems in Pakistan and I agree with these problems. I have written about these problems. But the thing is I also realize that being a muslim I am part of a Global nation of people called Muslims and their plight is my plight. Now, the whole intention of this story, was just that I felt like writing about something and I wrote about it. As a writer I don`t have to offer solutions. I can very well be a mullah if I have to. And I can offer solutions like, do Jihad against Hindus, destroy India. But these are childish and absurd. Now, I took a different approach. I just wrote what I felt and thought about. You don`t like it you have every right to say so, but in a civil manner. When people start cursing and saying things like ``Thoo``, please don`t expect me to sit tight and not loose my cool. However my upbringing has been in a good Muslims family so I had the guts to apologize for my usage of language. Other just show what there background is. But back to the main topic of my discussion. As, a writer I will write about what I feel. Nobody can deny what I have written about. It happens. Now, if I would have given a solution that would be meddling into Indian affairs, and that is not my territory. As it is not any Indian`s territory to tell us what to do. Simple.
If I would have would written about the same thing in Pakistan, everybody would be happy. But I wrote about Human Rights violation in India, whey did people get mad? Because I touched a sore issue, which hurts because it is true? Well, too bad. Because people world-wide will talk about this. It is open for discussion for everyone. So I don`t understand what the problem, is. There is rascism in India against Muslims, just like there is rascism in Pakistan against non-Muslims. So I am not denying it. But, rest assured I will write more in such touchy issues. If feel like it, there is no stopping me. I am free to write and think what I feel like.
Well, now to your question as to what I am doing in USA. Well, right now working. Just graduated. I never said that Pakistan is a safe Haven for everyone. If you read my first article, The RiverBank, you will understand why I came here. I don`t have anything more to say about this. But, look at my story for content and structure. What I have written is true. It happens. End of it. I don`t go further to say what should be done to curb it or what is the Indian policy. Not my job. So, hey, don`t take it and distort it.
H

HERE ARE FURTHER RECOMENDATIONS TO THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA WITH REGARDS TO THE TRAJEDY IN GUJRAT. THESE RECOMMENDATIONS HAVE BEEN COMPILED BY THE INTERNATIONAL ORGANISTAION OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH:

To the Government of India:

The government of India should ensure that the government of Gujarat investigates and prosecutes perpetrators of violence and where necessary, cooperates with external agencies such as the CBI in doing so. The government should also take appropriate measures to ensure the security and safety of all citizens of Gujarat, including assistance to those who have been displaced or dispossessed by the violence. In addition, Human Rights Watch recommends that:

Repeal the Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA), which stands in violation of international due process norms. The Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance (POTO), that preceded POTA, has been discriminatorily applied against Muslims in the state of Gujarat and elsewhere.

· Establish state branches of the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC), the National Commission for Minorities (NCM), and the National Commission for Women (NCW) in Gujarat, with adequate financial resources and powers to initiate prosecution where appropriate. The 1993 Protection of Human Rights Act should also be amended so that the NHRC is not excluded from inquiring into matters already pending before state commissions.

· Implement recommendations on police reform made by the National Police Commission in 1980.

· End impunity for past campaigns of violence against minorities. That is, prosecute and punish those found responsible for serious offenses during the anti-Sikh violence in Delhi in 1984 and the post-Ayodhya violence of December 1992 and January 1993. The recommendations of the Srikrishna Commission on the post-Ayodhya violence in Bombay should be implemented without delay. Police responsible for excessive use of force should be prosecuted; those who having the power and duty to stop the violence but did not intervene should be punished accordingly.

· Request and encourage United Nations relief agencies, including the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), the United Nations Children Fund (UNICEF), the World Food Programme (WFP), the World Health Organization (WHO), and the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), as well as international humanitarian organizations to provide relief and rehabilitation assistance to all those displaced and dispossessed by the communal violence, without discrimination.

· Provide U.N., international humanitarian organizations, and local nongovernmental relief agencies full, free, and unimpeded access to all those displaced and dispossessed by the communal violence.

· United Nations human rights bodies and experts should be invited and encouraged to visit India:

· The Working Group on Arbitrary Detention.
· The special rapporteur on torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.
· The special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary and arbitrary executions.
· The special rapporteur on violence against women.
· The special rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance.
· The Special Representative of the United Nations secretary-general on internally displaced persons.
· Include information on the recent communal violence in India`s future periodic reports to human rights treaty bodies established for the:

· International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (submission due August 8, 2002)
· International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (overdue as of December 31, 2001).

---

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/india/India0402-01.htm#P195_30463

Thanks Bong Dongs! It cetainly increased my knowledge. Well, atleast now we know that steps have been carried to prevent and counter such trajedies.

#132 by dost-mittar

“This is not my favourite subject and this will be my last post on this topic.”

I respect that.

I read that dailytimes article and could only laugh at the writer. Balochistan is a tribal society and if there were 20% Hindu in 1947, then that had to be the largest tribe in Balochistan. One of the biggest tribe in Balochistan, Bugti; is not 20% of the Balochistan population. Going by Balochistan population in 1947, we are talking about a million people and I doubt that they disappeared within a few years without any trace. Further, if you research this little bit you will find that there never were many Hindu in India or in Pakistan of Baloch ancestry. Hindus in Balochistan were all of Sindhi origin.
Almost all Baloch trace their ancestry from Kurds in Iran and Iraq.
However, I don’t know much of that is true. If there were any conversions, they must have happened couple of hundred years ago.

foad_shah,

This is not to say all that can be done is being done, but though the efforts of people like Teesta Seetalvad of ``Communalism Combat`` and the supreme court of India some of these things have taken place. Just to keep you up to date:

---

- The government should act without delay to implement the recommendations of the NHRC on the violence in Gujarat including that:
- The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) take over investigations of certain critical incidents in Gujarat, including the attacks in Godhra, Naroda Patia, and Gulmarg Society.

---

Response:
NHRC recommendation of handing cases over to CBI has been implemented, several high profile cases such as the Bilkis Bano, Best Bakery and Naroda Patiya are being investigated by CBI.

---

· The chief justice of the High Court of Gujarat establish courts expressly to try the cases investigated by the CBI.

---

Response:
Unfortunately Gujarat judiciary seems to have no interest in doing justice. Under supreme court orders the Bilkis Bano and Best Bakery cases have been shifted to Maharashtra. A further 20 odd riot related cases are pending before the Gujarat high court, lets see what happens with them.

---

· The government set up police desks in temporary camps, to receive and record complaints, and forward them to police stations having jurisdiction.

---

Response:
This was done at the refugee camps.

---

· Turn over investigations implicating state and police officials to external agencies such as the CBI. Ensure that these investigations address the conduct of state officials, including police and Bharatiya Janata Party leaders, who incited, took part in, or were complicit in the attacks...Police found to have violated their duties should be dismissed and prosecuted where appropriate.

---

Response:
6 policemen are being prosecuted in the Bilkis Bano case. In Naroda Patia case a prominent Bajrang Dal leader has been charge sheeted, but as always in these cases I am no too optimistic about politicians being convicted.

---

· Collect and preserve forensic evidence for use in the identification of the dead and to support criminal prosecutions.

---

Response:
CBI has carried out substantial forensic investigations to generate supporting evidence in the cases it is investigating.

---

· Members of the media and media organizations responsible for the incitement of specific acts of violence should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

---

Response:
I am not aware of any efforts in this direction. Some news reports indicate that ``Gujarat Samachar`` should be the prime target for such investigation. I dont know if it is possible under current laws.

---

· Take decisive steps to ensure that police use deadly force only as a last resort to protect life. Police agents should act in accordance with international standards on use of force...

---

Response:
This is a issue bigger than just Gujarat. Note the recent Manipur incident involving the Assam Rifles.

---

· Launch public awareness campaigns in Gujarat and other states aimed at preventing future communal violence. ..

---

Response:
These are issues bigger than just the riots, I dont know what we can do. Polarization of Gujarati society seems to be total and irreversable in the near future.


On other issues anybody who knows better please add.

``Now balluKhan. I think you are an insecure failure......``

It is time for me to do some LOL-s kid! I pity Rais Khan for being reduced to a gali ka K in Pakistan. He deserves much more- but he did not have the patience to hold on to his arrogance. He despised everyone including Vilayat Khan and you are learning just the wrong things from him including his Khushti with the Daand. You deny the fact as to why he sings Ghazals in Pakistan whereas he palys Sitar in India or USA. LEt us face the reality that it is now even more difficult to practice Classical Music which does not have sanction from the Paki Ulemas. So Rais Khan has to run to USA to play Sitar and all those lovely Hindustani Raags ( What is the meaning of ``Hindustani Raag``? Hint- Read the first 5 letters!)

You are a kid before me because I have learnt Dhrupad and Khayal even before you were born ???????? So let me know whether you have figured out how to play the mizrab bols in sapat taans in the first lesson I taught you.
And I am an expert in an instrument which Rais Khan`s father used to play mainly?? (try to figure out)

Asalamoalaiqum,

It is a pity that instead of finding solutions and providing recommendations to solve the crisis of minorities being persecuted in both countries, interactors have indulged in filth and hate speeches.

No one is saying that non-Muslims are better off in India or Muslims are better off in Pakistan. But, this can not make one negate the atrocites. the pics and quite revealing articles posted by Foad_Shah are quite eye opening and so is the pic provided by Kaurasuch . So, now we know that unfortunately such injustices are being undoubtly carried out. The question is what to do about it?

I , as a resident of Karachi, Pakistan, from my own experience has seen a Hindu Head Girl in my college days, ( she was elected by the majority Muslim students). She wasa n intelligent girl and is currently doing her M.B.B.S in Pakistan only.

In Law school, we had a few other Hindu`s in our university all of whom were popular, intelligent and respected by teachers.

Some of the top models in Pakistan are also Hindu for eg. Sunita Marshall and Mohini.

In the Club i go to, there are various Hindu members and who are quite at ease with interacting with Muslims and vice versa. And , most of them are quite successful business men.

Atleast in Karachi, furthermore, i know that Christians hold a lot of respect. Majority of Karachite`s describe Christians as sweet and down to earth people. A few of my own teachers were Christians and Parsees and highly respected too.

But this does not mean that atrocites against non-Muslims have not been carried out in Pakistan. I , as a Pakistani Muslim admit this and it pains me that some Muslims are so blind to not realise what they have been doing.

This goes on to indicate that if atrocites have been carried out against non-Muslims, then it has taken place in poor , undeveloped areas , where a majority of illiterate people reside who rely on fatwas from hypocrite Mullahs solely.

These people have not given the correct knowledge regarding the treatment of non-Muslims in Islam. They have not been told that the injunctions of the Qur`an enjoin affection and kindness to the good and peace-loving peoples of every religion, as well as the verses which permit marriage to the women of the People of the Book, with all that Allah says concerning marriage—``and He has put love and mercy between you`` (30:21)—and the verse concerning the Christians: ...And thou wilt find those who say, `Surely we are Christians.` to be nearest to them (the Muslims) in affection....(5:85 (82))

It has not been explained to them by their elders and scholors that the Arabic word for peace is salaam—a word included in the Arabic/Muslim greetings. Islam is Arabic for surrender or submission. Muslim means one who submits. For many non-Muslims, the word Muslim is synonymous with angry mobs and suicidal bombers. Such stereotyping of Muslims is patently wrong. Most Muslims are ordinary, peace-loving people with their own set of dreams and problems and should be treated with the same respect we give to any other fellow human being.


According to a famous religios scholor:
``For the record, let me say that Jesus Christ taught his followers to ``love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.`` (Injil, Matthew 5:44 NKJV). Notwithstanding Jesus’s clear teaching and example, over the centuries, much violence and evil has been committed by those who call themselves ``Christians``. Just as there are many who call themselves Muslims who do not live according to the teachings of Muhammad, it is safe to say that many who call themselves ``Christians`` do not live according to the teachings of Christ``.

So, the Muslims who do not treat others, kindly and justly can not also be truly classifies as ``MUSLIMS>``

They have not been told that Muslims are allowed to have non-Muslims as friends as long as they keep their own faith and commitment to Islam pure and strong. A Muslim man is also allowed to marry a Jewish or Christian woman. It is obvious that one marries someone for love and friendship. If friendship between Muslims and Jews or Christians was forbidden, then why would Islam allow a Muslim man to marry a Jew or Christian woman? It is the duty of Muslims to patronize Muslims. They should not patronize any one who is against their faith or who fights their faith, even if they were their fathers and brothers. Allah says, ``O you who believe! Take not for protectors (awliya`) your fathers and your brothers if they love unbelief above faith. If any of you do so, they are indeed wrong-doers.`` (al-Tawbah 9:23) In a similar way the Qur`an also tells Muslims that they should never patronize the non-Muslims against other Muslims. However, if some Muslims do wrong to some non-Muslims, it is Muslims duty to help the non-Muslims and save them from the oppression of the so-called Muslims. The Prophet -peace be upon him- said that he himself will be the plaintiff of a Dhimmi living among Muslims to whom injustice is done by Muslims. But Islam also teaches that Muslims should not seek the patronage of non- Muslims against other Muslims. They should try to solve their problems among themselves. Allah says, ``Let not the Believers take the unbelievers as their patrons over against the Believers… (Al `Imran 3:28) ``O you who believe! Take not for patrons unbelievers rather than Believers. Do you wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?`` (al-Nisa` 4:144)

They have not been told Non-Muslims in an Islamic state do posses special rights irrespective of the fact that they are minorities or majorities. Under any circumstances it is not permissible to burn holy places of non-Muslims or books or to abuse them, by Muslim individuals, groups or government agencies. However, non-Muslims are not allowed to abuse any Prophet, to be little or insult Islamic laws. In case a non-Muslim insults Prophet Muhammad, he shall be tried in the court under blasphemy laws.

The Pakistani government, though still has a long way to go is gradually implementing more and more laws for the protection of non-Muslims.In January, Pakistan`s government ended an electoral system that discriminated against religious minorities by compelling them to vote for just 10 non-Muslim seats in the overwhelmingly Muslim Parliament. Experts believe that the decision to scrap the old system could pave the way towards establishing a secular political culture in the country.

Even though despite the introduction of the new joint electorate system, recent attacks against non-Muslims in Islamabad, may explain why not a single non-Muslim is contesting some 272 general seats of the national legislature. However, some 50 Hindu and Christian candidates were running for office on general seats in the provincial legislatures of the southern Sindh and eastern Punjab province.

In conclusion i just want to point out that the author, should not indulge in foul language or name calling and try to prove his points with research and analysis. And lastly, and most importantly , let us set an example on chowk. Let all non-Muslims and Muslims ensue open dialogue and try to find solutions and try to be friends and not enemies. Let us for once be sincere.

Kind regards.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

THE ONLY WAY TO RESOLVE THE ISSUE OF PERSECUTION OF MINORITIES IN INDIA AND PAKISTAN IS TO START WITH OUR SELVES. WE, SHOULD, FIRSTLY, GIVE THE MINORITIES THE RESPECT THE DESERVE AND GO AGAINST THE FUNDAMENTALIST PARTIES WHO SPREAD MALICE AGAINST THE MINORITIES. iF THE MAJORITY IN THE RESPECTED COUNTRIES, DO NOT LEARN TO RESPECT AND GIVE EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES TO MINORITIES IN ALL SECTORS OF LIFE, THE PROBLEM WILL REMAIN UNSOLVED.

HERE ARE SOME RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE STATE GOVERNMENT OF GUJRATBY WORKERS OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH:

Improve security in violence-affected areas and relief camps by increasing the number of police officers-including officers from minority communities-and the number of outposts where needed. Where necessary, army units should continue to be deployed to keep the peace.

· Suspend all police officers implicated in the attacks, pending investigation.
· The government should act without delay to implement the recommendations of the NHRC on the violence in Gujarat including that:

. The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) take over investigations of certain critical incidents in Gujarat, including the attacks in Godhra, Naroda Patia, and Gulmarg Society.

. · The chief justice of the High Court of Gujarat establish courts expressly to try the cases investigated by the CBI.

. · The government set up police desks in temporary camps, to receive and record complaints, and forward them to police stations having jurisdiction.


. · Turn over investigations implicating state and police officials to external agencies such as the CBI. Ensure that these investigations address the conduct of state officials, including police and Bharatiya Janata Party leaders, who incited, took part in, or were complicit in the attacks. The investigations should also focus on:


· Instances in which government documents noting the religious affiliation of persons were given to groups responsible for inciting violence or conducting abuses.

· Malfeasance in investigating and arresting leaders involved in attacks.

· Excessive use of police force, including executions of Muslims.

· The arbitrary detention and filing of false charges against Muslims.


· Ensure that state police register and investigate all cases of communal violence regardless of the religious background of the victim. Police posts should be set up in relief camps expressly for this purpose. The national government and government of Gujarat should establish civilian review boards or civilian ombudsman committees composed of judges and lawyers to examine whether cases are being adequately investigated. Police found to have violated their duties should be dismissed and prosecuted where appropriate.

· Collect and preserve forensic evidence for use in the identification of the dead and to support criminal prosecutions.

· Members of the media and media organizations responsible for the incitement of specific acts of violence should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

· Take decisive steps to ensure that police use deadly force only as a last resort to protect life. Police agents should act in accordance with international standards on use of force. The U.N. Basic Principles on the Use of Force or Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials emphasize that the use of force and firearms should be in consonance with respect for human rights and that deadly force should not be used against persons unless ``strictly unavoidable in order to protect life.``

· Launch public awareness campaigns in Gujarat and other states aimed at preventing future communal violence. This campaign should reaffirm legal provisions, explain what recourses are available to minorities, and publicize the procedures for filing a First Information Report (FIR). This campaign should also include public service announcements aimed at educating the population through efforts to raise awareness of minority rights and condemnation of religious violence and extremism.

· Implement state and federal relief packages for victims of communal violence-including disbursement of compensation for family members of victims killed in the violence, the reconstruction of homes and places of business, and the provision of food rations and other relief supplies for all persons displaced or dispossessed by the communal violence in a nondiscriminatory manner and in accordance with international human rights law and the U.N. Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement.

· Restore without delay all documents necessary for the enjoyment and exercise of legal rights that were lost or destroyed in the course of the communal violence. These include passports, personal identification documents, and birth, marriage, and education certificates.

stuka#126:
``I completely disagree Dost Mittar.``
I wonder if you understood me. Stating a reality does not mean agreement or support of it; if I say that Bush`s attack on Iraq had a widespread support, it does not mean that I supported it either.
``I find this blackmail of Indian Muslims repulsive, be it used to defend the Kashmir cause or to talk about Pakistan treating its minorities the way they want to.``
I think that you have known my views long enough to know that so do I. But denying that this is increasingly the reality of India today (it wasn`t always so!) is burying one`s head in the sand, as anyone glancing through sulekha.com`s newshopper would know.

HP#129:
This is not my favourite subject and this will be my last post on this topic.
My guess is that the buddies you grew up with were middle class hindus. A sindhi friend of mine from Bombay married off his sister to one such Pakistani back in the 70s. The hindus that suffer the most are the bheels, kolis and other low-caste sindhis. They suffer from the triple whammy of discrimination by upper-caste hindus, opression of rapacious vaderas and the police suspicious of them because of their close proximity to the Indian border.

I too had the same impression about Balochistan until I read a report in The Friday Times of March 23-29. The following is an excerpt:
``In Balochistan, Hindus were 22 percent of the population in 1941; today they are only 1.6 percent, according to the 1998 census report, which may be 27,000 Hindus in all. After 1947, their exodus from the Pakhtun areas of Balochistan was considerable while they tended to stay in the Baloch areas. The exodus was the characteristic of the entire population of Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan. There was a tendency among the lower caste Hindus not to migrate. The pattern of settlement today is such that Sindhi-speaking Hindus live in the Baloch areas bordering Sindh while further West near Quetta and the region called Jhalawan the Seraiki-speaking Hindus call themselves Punjabi.

Hindus in Balochistan: The latest facts about the Hindu community in Balochistan have come to light in a report by Minority Rights Commission of Pakistan titled Religious Tolerance in Balochistan: Myth and Reality (2003) by Akram Mirani. The Commission sent a team to the province, which observed the Hindus of Kalat, Mastung, Machh and Kolpur and discovered that the Baloch and Brahui tribes kept them to do jobs (musicians, carpenters, merchants) considered below their honour by the Muslims. The author noted that Hindus were visible in Baloch areas but were scarce in the Pakhtun areas although in 1941 most of the 54,000 Hindus of Balochistan lived in the Pakhtun areas. After 1947, the Hindus in the Pakhtun areas declined by 93 percent but only by 11 percent in the Baloch areas.``

It took 25 years for Indian government to start processing (not actually paying compensation) the claims of unfortunate victims of Bhopal industrial disaster. Thousands perished meanwhile hoping to see a better day in their life coughing blood and vomiting their inards out. The interesting thing is that Union Carbide paid the agreed compensation of 450+ million dollars to Indian government some 20 odd years ago. Where is the interest on that 440 million dollars accumulated over 20 years - nobody knows, nobody asks. And we are supposed to beleive that this government is compassionate towards a hated minority? Is this government supposed to protect its minority? One has to live in cukkooland to have such a supposition. Is there a wonder, 80,000+ Kashmiris have been murdered in cold blood and copuntless women and children raped by its army and no one in the country dares ask, why? Should Muslim minority trust this government? If Babri Masjid Massacre and Gujrat Genocide are not enough to open their eyes then what is? Therefore, it makes more of a compelling case, for Indian Muslims to arm themselves for the coming armagadon - the next mahabharat - the next ram lila that is bound to be written with Muslim blood. I would appeal to the good conscience of all compassionate Hindus (if such an animal exists) to help their Muslim fellow human beings to arm themselves. The writ of Indian government to protect Muslims has failed not once but it has failed every day of every year for the past 57 years. It is in Indian government`s own interest to have a safe and protected minority. A well armed, well trained Muslim citizen who is confident of the safety of his family is the best protection India will have to save itself from disintegration. The only thing that is keeping India intact is the inherent politics of anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistan hatered. Keep in mind that negetive politics can go only so far only for so long.

Hamid_81,
I am tempted to call you an idiot as well since you believe in equality but I’ll let it go this time.
But dear boy, lame excuses/explanations do not make an effective argument.
You haven’t answered yet as to what you are doing abroad if your country is such a secure haven.
Nobody is denying Gujarat. It happened and might happen again.
The point is you are not expressing your pain and anger and sympathy at your hapless prosecuted Muslim brethren here; you are being vitriolic.
Believe me Indian Muslims prefer to be prosecuted here in India than in Pakistan by their own on being muhajirs, Shias, Qadiyanis, non-Muslims etc., etc.
A writer’s responsibility is not just to write about facts but also offer solutions. His work should function as a soothing balm.
Your story brings back painful memories, yes but it also evokes repulsion.
That’s not what you are supposed to do. Next time try to assuage hurt feelings and not stoke them.
You are forgiven this time for you are still a kid, after all.
Perhaps you have some personal grievances to settle having lost a dear one in communal riots here; that would explain your extreme feelings.
Its not to say, Indian Muslims, whether or not they have suffered a loss, lack spine.
The feelings of anger, frustration, rebellion, and revenge do overcome them too; but they are only exercising restrain. That by no means should be misconstrued as cowardice for remember, God is with those who are patient.
Take care.

dost-mittar Sahib,
I admire you for realizing that Pakistan and India are two different countries and nobody should use one criterion to judge both countries. That is what I have been trying to say for sometime but people just won’t give up their preconceived notions of pride and accept that born out of one, both countries have taken different paths of development, sibling rivalry notwithstanding, both will continue to traverse a different path. With the passage of time differences would overwhelm similarities.

Pakistan’s problems and issues are entirely different than Indian problems. Most Pakistanis have not grown up with neighbors of different religions and different cultures attempting to survive in tough economic environments that are common to both countries. Fortunately, I grow up in an area where Hindus were my buddies. I learned to understand that it is not a major issue, if my Hindu friends support Indian cricket team.
With that in mind, I also know that barring some Mullah shouting in the mosques in cities in Sindh, Hindus are a vibrant community. I also know with mullah, bigotry is on the rise in Pakistan and I am not as in touch with the daily life as I used to be in my younger days.

However, your stats don’t match the logical test. Your 20-22% looks good if you take former East Pakistan into the picture.
With a huge population shift between 1947 and 51, the numbers changed more drastically then you can even think of.
Hindus were about 20% of Sindh Population in 1947. Sindh accepted about 2 to 3 million refugees in 1947 and that changed the population numbers as now Hindu percentages were reduced by incoming Muslims. A good portion of Hindu left Sindh (what a tragedy!) from 1948 to 1951. So the base numbers to compare Hindu population should be 1951 census and not 1947 numbers as they were too fluid statistically.
I think if you look at numbers from 1951 onwards there is no significant change of Hindu Population in Sindh or in the current Pakistan, percentage wise. Again you also need to consider population growth rate that is much higher in Muslims families than in Hindu families.
I will try to get all the numbers for you but if you look at the whole situation and research it yourself you will get to the bottom of it.
I am not going to bring in Punjab as both Punjabs pretty much were cleared out of competing religions within a few months of partition.

Balochistan never had 20% Hindu population. Most of the Hindus were in areas near Sindh around Jacobabad. Hindus still own significant number of retail stores and businesses in that area.

#124 by stuka
AlephNull was going to get a tongue lashing of his life for his Incontrovertibly weird post, but you floored me. I just had an extra shot for you. If I change my style, I will not be me.
Still-
#116 by AlephNull
“Incontrovertible facts that show that people of any religious or ethnic background not only survive but also thrive in India”

I am going to ignore your weird sarcasm and ask you to present economic and social indice from India to support your claim. Quoting Azim Premji is not an “incontrovertible” (what a tongue twister!) evidence.

Just read the article - a fictional story. So whats the fuss about? Hamid M obviously has a different perception of India than Indians, thats his reality and he is welcome to it - let him write. And he has written some good stuff in the past that was appreciated by Chowkies across the divide. Which is why some of the hate that comes across in his interacts was a bit surprising. Obviously anything we say can and will be used against us. Life goes on....

``This is why I said in my earlier post that the best thing Pakistanis can do for IMs is to improve their own record of treating any minorities``

I completely disagree Dost Mittar. Pakistan can ethnically cleanse their country of minorities. It should have no effect on the way we view fellow Indians. I find this blackmail of Indian Muslims repulsive, be it used to defend the Kashmir cause or to talk about Pakistan treating its minorities the way they want to.

Pakistan is a soveriegn nation and can do what it wants. However, it will get a bloody nose and more if it tries to dictate policy to us about our internal affairs. As far as the Hindu-Muslim issue inside India is concerned, Pakistanis have the freedom to comment but should not expect us to take them seriously on the moral ramifications. They obviously have no locus standi on the legal issues.

HP:
I think that India and Pakistan have different concepts of nationhood, which makes them view their respective minorities differently. This is as it should be: a country that swears by secularism cannot use the same benchmark for its behaviour towards its minorities as does one which openly calls itself islamic with parallel sharia courts. So, muslim Indians and the Indian and international human rights organizations have every right to haul Indians over the coals for not living up to their constitutional guarantees.
However, the picture changes when Pakistanis take up the case of Indian muslims, especially when they start comparing Indian record unfavourably with their own. The last thing Indian muslims need is to use Pakistan as a role model for treating minorities, esp. hindus, since it invites counter arguments even from people like me. As you are well aware, the population of muslims in India has gone up from around 30 million after partition to around 140 million today, growing even faster than the overall Indian population. While statistics on the Pakistani side are sketchy, I have recently read some Pakistani columnist use official statistics to point out that the proportion of Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan after the partition in areas now forming Pakistan was about 20-25% in Sindh and Balochistan and a much smaller proportion in Panjab. Their proportion is nowhere near that now; I am not even sure if their numbers have gone up at all in absoute terms over the last 55 years.
Until recently, these divergent trends did not matter. However, with the rise of the communal hindu political forces, there are born again tnt-ites in India today. Pakistanis complaining about muslims in India truly play into the hands of these elements. This is why I said in my earlier post that the best thing Pakistanis can do for IMs is to improve their own record of treating any minorities. Saying that you dont have any anti-hindu riots is not good enough - we don`t want to have a case of `na mareez rahe na marz`.

``I notice that HPs club is growing. ``


Rahul

I don`t know what you mean by that. HP`s views would be considered heretical amongst the Pakistani establishment. I think people may disagree with HP`s style or modus operandi and they are confusing that with his actual opinions. I have no problem discussing openly India`s problems with HP because this guy is a man of integrity and will discuss for the sake of enhancing dialogue and discussion and not to score cheap shots. I don`t agree with his style but that is very different from the content of his opinions.

Halur:

Well then don`t expect to be taken seriously by Non-Muslims, as simple as that. I suspect however that you are Indian.

Many posters miss the central fact that Pakistan is an islamic state , specifically a homeland for Indian Muslims (It is another matter that the majority of `indian` muslims live in bangladesh and india). So for a pakistani it is perfectly fair to be *only* concerned about oppression of muslims and at best be indiifferent and at worst endorse oppression of religious minorities in pakistani. the hudood lawa are a fine example. Pakistanis can and will not be apologetic about such laws, the blatant persecution of christians in pakistan, while point to every viloation of secularism in india.

There is and will never be symmetry in the dialog between indians and pakistanis. we are coming at this from diametically opposite welt-anshaungs. Pakistanis can have their cake and eat it too. indians better get used it.

Just to put things in perspective,let me mention that Censor Board has banned Rakesh Sharma`s documentary ``Final Solution`` and we should be talking about this,rather than fighting with these deluded people.We have our share of problems.We need to raise voice against this censorship and there is an online petition too against it.(I personally dont care about them,but if someone wishes to sign it some googling will take you to it) I dont know why it was banned and I want to find out.

malik,HP I really cant add much to what Stuka has said but why is your International Biradarbazi so selective and myopic? This guy makes wrong generalizations like Hindus are out to kill Muslims and you guys talk about constructive discussion.I would not mind having a discussion with even a paki but when all this guy can do is to do kiddish LOLs and go hide somewhere then what kind of discussion do you suppose we can have? This is why we are forced to talk in the language that he understands and forced to mention Godhra as the cause of Ahmedabad. A sane person would realize that Godhra and Gujarat does not happen everyday and everywhere in India. There is an IM who has writtten an article about Kakori , if you would have read that. There are IMs who are interacting here,but no,all that is being done here is pseudo biradarbazi and naarebazi that we should arm Imdian Muslims. The irony is that the IM is supposed to be apologetic about such asinine stupidity and Hindus like gujjubania would post long diatribes against Indian muslims. Such stupidity and generalizations do tend to radicalize even sensible people.
And becoz of this some people tend to act surprisingly .There is an article condemning Bush but along with that condemning Democracry.The guy says that Dictatorship is ok and some kind of oppression is necessary to run the country. As if there are not enough sticks to beat Bush with. In the spate of international brotherhood urstruly says mashallah subhanallah to that article and then cries about how the army is opressing people in pakistan.This is amazing logic. Please get out of your international brotherhood syndrome and realize that there are not enough jihads to be fought as you want to.Then we will have a constructive discussion.

ana #45 Thanks for replying and Sorry for replying late.I notice that HPs club is growing.
Regarding your reply your point a) is really insightful.And you are right, we should not take this silently.Though usually these people are way over the top and not prone to any reason.
But what I meant as ``provoking strongest feelings`` was when we become so blind in hatred that we characterize a group of people in that hatred.The only reason I posted on this board was your sentence that ``What will this make us pakis look like?`` This is what I am afraid of. For me, I refuse to belive that every paki would think like hamid,unless and until I personally interact with each and every one of them. And chowk is certianly not representative of either India or Pakistan.And this is exactly what I meant when I said these people are irrelevant, they are so deluded that you should not make your opinion about an average paki based on them.
Otherwise,I doubt if anybody here is up for a serious debate and that is the reason I kept away.

Kaurasach

What makes you think that the people who could not forget the face of a terrified Muslim will give even a second glance at a bleeding and terrified Hindu? You think Hamid81 and his ilk consider non Muslims as humans?

Just read the article and the ensuing discussion. The author is not the non-interacting type, for a change; his numerous interacts seem quite revealing of his worldview. People have observed that the quality of writing doesn’t have much to recommend it. The rawness and lack of artifice may be appropriate in this case. In a symbolic sense (ignoring details like the distance from UP to Gujarat and the incubation period of HIV) something on the lines of the story in the article could very well have happened, not once but many times. The author and people who agree with him might want to ask themselves whether being considered parasites, traitors in their own land, living in the fear of death, is indeed the only reality, or the dominant reality, that Indian Muslims face. Incontrovertible facts that show that people of any religious or ethnic background not only survive but also thrive in India, may be what drive people like the author over the edge into paroxysms of fury at being betrayed by reality.

But at any rate none of us will be able to confront and defeat either flesh-and-blood demons or the ones in our minds unless we are allowed to openly express our rage, terror, hatred and desperation. I don’t think Chowk betrayed its stated purpose when it allowed this article to be published. I do hope that all interacts on this article, excepting those that are content-free abuse and nothing else, will be preserved intact.

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HP #98,

``The point in my post was that writing about Gujarat should not be a cause
of yanking an article as your post that I referred to appeared to suggest.``

There have been a few thousand articles published on the Gujarat riots in the
Indian press. This piece of garbage, however, doesn`t qualify as one. My
comment/query was about the quality of the article, not the fact that it mentioned
Gujarat.

I certainly could`ve ignored it, but chose not to. A front page littered with such stuff
does nobody any good.

HP, Mallick99

Have you been following-up on the several on going court-cases resulting out of riots?

Urstruely

please try harder with your nara-e-takbeer. you should also provide the dalits, sikhs, parsees, charsees, bhoomihars and nanga-sadhus with ak47s as they are opressed minorities too. but dont let your focus stray from the real shaitan in the interim, else its one way free ticket out of the detroit metro.

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Malyck:

I am busy taking Pangas with Hamid_81 on this board. Let me however digress on the issue you raised of the Hindu-Muslim issue being a valid issue. Yes, you are right, it is a vlaid issue. So why the knee jerk response from Indians?

1. You are Pakistani. Pakistan was based on TNT which subscribes to Hindus and Muslims not being able to live together in one country. That why you formed your own country. As per Hindu perception, since th